IRC log of dpub on 2014-08-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:03:02 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
- 14:03:04 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:03:04 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #dpub
- 14:03:06 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be dpub
- 14:03:06 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 57 minutes
- 14:03:07 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
- 14:03:07 [trackbot]
- Date: 25 August 2014
- 14:11:42 [dauwhe_]
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- 14:15:33 [dauwhe]
- dauwhe has joined #dpub
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- 14:54:25 [azaroth]
- azaroth has joined #DPUB
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- mgylling has joined #dpub
- 14:55:16 [Zakim]
- DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
- 14:55:22 [Zakim]
- +azaroth
- 14:55:55 [murakami]
- murakami has joined #dpub
- 14:56:10 [mgylling]
- mgylling has changed the topic to: meeting agenda for 2014-08-25: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Aug/0018.html
- 14:57:39 [mgylling]
- zakim, code?
- 14:57:39 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling
- 14:57:41 [Zakim]
- +clapierre1
- 14:58:25 [tzviya]
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- +dauwhe
- 14:58:37 [pkra]
- pkra has joined #dpub
- 14:59:06 [Zakim]
- +Tzviya
- 14:59:16 [Zakim]
- +pkra
- 14:59:36 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 14:59:40 [Zakim]
- +??P25
- 14:59:45 [Zakim]
- + +1.339.203.aaaa
- 14:59:51 [murakami]
- zakim,??P26 is me
- 14:59:51 [Zakim]
- +murakami; got it
- 15:00:02 [mgylling]
- zakim, ??P25 is me
- 15:00:02 [Zakim]
- +mgylling; got it
- 15:00:18 [dkaplan3]
- zakim, +1.339.203.aaaa is me
- 15:00:18 [Zakim]
- +dkaplan3; got it
- 15:00:42 [mgylling]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:00:42 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3
- 15:00:45 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
- 15:00:47 [Zakim]
- +Stearns
- 15:00:51 [Zakim]
- +??P29
- 15:00:52 [TimCole]
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- 15:01:16 [mgylling]
- Regrets: Michael Miller, Bill Kasdorf
- 15:01:26 [brady_duga]
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- 15:01:40 [Zakim]
- +duga
- 15:01:45 [Zakim]
- +TimCole
- 15:02:06 [dauwhe]
- Phil Madans is on vacation this week.
- 15:02:21 [Zakim]
- -TimCole
- 15:02:30 [Zakim]
- +pBelfanti
- 15:02:53 [pbelfanti]
- pbelfanti has joined #dpub
- 15:03:03 [Zakim]
- +TimCole
- 15:03:08 [mgylling]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:03:08 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole
- 15:03:10 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss,
- 15:03:10 [Zakim]
- ... trackbot
- 15:03:30 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 15:03:30 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 15:03:32 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:03:51 [ivan]
- zakim, drop me
- 15:03:51 [Zakim]
- Ivan is being disconnected
- 15:03:53 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 15:03:59 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 15:04:00 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 15:04:00 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:04:07 [Zakim]
- +Karen_Myers
- 15:04:20 [Vlad]
- Vlad has joined #dpub
- 15:04:48 [ivan]
- zakim, drop me
- 15:04:49 [Zakim]
- Ivan is being disconnected
- 15:04:49 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 15:04:55 [pkra]
- mgylling: scribe is pkra
- 15:04:56 [Zakim]
- +Vlad
- 15:05:06 [Zakim]
- +Julie
- 15:05:17 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 15:05:17 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 15:05:18 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:05:25 [Julie]
- Julie has joined #dpub
- 15:05:28 [Zakim]
- +david_stroup
- 15:05:37 [pkra]
- ... discussing the fall activities of task forces
- 15:05:37 [pkra]
- ...
- 15:05:42 [pkra]
- ... call with PF later today
- 15:05:59 [pkra]
- ... previous minutes were approved
- 15:06:01 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:06:04 [fjh]
- zakim, ipcaller is me
- 15:06:04 [Zakim]
- +fjh; got it
- 15:06:05 [Julie]
- Julie is at 646 number
- 15:06:07 [david_stroup]
- david_stroup has joined #dpub
- 15:06:21 [pkra]
- ... missing action item for pkra was added to minutes
- 15:06:22 [david_stroup]
- I'm 585-217
- 15:06:27 [SMc]
- SMc has joined #dpub
- 15:06:44 [pkra]
- ... some task forces have not yet update the tracker for achievables
- 15:06:48 [pkra]
- ... metadata, a11y
- 15:07:14 [pkra]
- ... last week not covered: styling & layout
- 15:07:15 [ivan]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:07:15 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup,
- 15:07:20 [Zakim]
- ... fjh
- 15:07:20 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see SMc, david_stroup, Julie, Vlad, pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen,
- 15:07:20 [Zakim]
- ... ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
- 15:07:33 [pkra]
- ... establish what can be accomplished in fall
- 15:07:56 [pkra]
- dauwhe much progress on CSS WG.
- 15:08:03 [pkra]
- ... dropcaps is moving forward
- 15:08:07 [ldawson]
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- 15:08:08 [pkra]
- ... issues around non-western scripts
- 15:08:10 [ivan]
- q+
- 15:08:18 [pkra]
- ... not a lot of feedback on that (yet)
- 15:08:35 [pkra]
- ... not necessarily a priority for DPUB since latinrec is the target for DPUB IG
- 15:09:09 [murakami]
- http://vivliostyle.com/
- 15:09:23 [pkra]
- ... murakami start vivliostyle.com
- 15:09:34 [pkra]
- ... getting feedback from implementors would be very good
- 15:09:44 [pkra]
- ... otherwise, discussions of footnotes
- 15:09:48 [Zakim]
- +LauraD
- 15:10:17 [pkra]
- ... further progress: CSS regions, CSS page templates
- 15:10:47 [pkra]
- ... would like to get more clarity, e.g., IDPF, CSS WG, where this should be going => DPUB IG might be able help
- 15:11:01 [pkra]
- ... for template layouts
- 15:11:27 [pkra]
- ... PTG spec; making extensions to that (running heads)
- 15:12:08 [pkra]
- ... many threads at CSS WG which could use feedback
- 15:12:12 [tzviya]
- PTG/s/PGT
- 15:12:19 [pkra]
- ... it's all very powerful stuff for long form content
- 15:12:25 [ivan]
- s/PTG/PGT/
- 15:12:57 [pkra]
- ... discuss if this is a worthy goal
- 15:13:15 [tzviya]
- q+
- 15:13:22 [pkra]
- mgylling: how does this vary? Is this active work or stalling?
- 15:13:38 [pkra]
- dauwhe: CSS regions very active, implementations in progress
- 15:13:48 [pkra]
- ... CSS page template spec => Allan
- 15:14:06 [pkra]
- ??? css page template spec. CSS WG open to this cut down version
- 15:14:20 [pkra]
- ... doesn't make sense until browsers have paginated view to display these templates
- 15:14:31 [ivan]
- s/???/astearns:/
- 15:14:31 [pkra]
- ... pushing browser vendors to implement paginated view
- 15:14:39 [pkra]
- ... then continue work on spec
- 15:14:57 [pkra]
- ... get browsers on board for touch/scrollable version and paginated version
- 15:14:59 [mgylling]
- q?
- 15:15:15 [pkra]
- dauwhe: obvious interest in this at IDPF
- 15:15:31 [pkra]
- mgylling: what can we do? Just fleshing out latinrec?
- 15:15:31 [mgylling]
- ack tzviya
- 15:15:51 [pkra]
- tzviya: it might be helpful to get started for DPUB IG to take a look at what dauwhe and astearns have added
- 15:16:03 [pkra]
- ... personally, haven't seen PGT for a year...
- 15:16:21 [pkra]
- dauwhe: in the process of writing up something on regions and page templates, footnotes and running heads
- 15:16:27 [astearns]
- css page templates (subset of PGT): http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-template/
- 15:16:34 [pkra]
- ... will appear at level 4
- 15:16:41 [pkra]
- ... sketching out problem space
- 15:16:56 [pkra]
- ... what we want to do with these tools, here are the properties that we need to achieve these goals
- 15:17:20 [pkra]
- mgylling: how do you see this IG and IDPF help out to get this to move forward? Concrete things, plz.
- 15:17:48 [pkra]
- astearns: 1) start threads or respond to threads on www-style mailing list, showing interest in page templates, footnotes, etc
- 15:17:53 [pkra]
- ... CSS WG likes use cases
- 15:18:19 [pkra]
- ... if you like paginated view and you have a use case for it then it would be very good to hear about it on the list
- 15:18:41 [pkra]
- mgylling: it would help to point IG to threads when they appear.
- 15:18:47 [pkra]
- astearns: will do.
- 15:19:06 [pkra]
- mgylling: PGT not actively pursued at IDPF at this time
- 15:19:18 [pkra]
- ... awaiting CSS improvements
- 15:19:34 [pkra]
- ... doesn't make sense to start this on the side
- 15:19:41 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 15:19:55 [Luc]
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- 15:19:56 [pkra]
- ... question: how much is already in CSS?
- 15:19:56 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.640.aabb
- 15:20:09 [Luc]
- Sorry to be late
- 15:20:09 [pkra]
- dauwhe: there are pieces that are not present yet.
- 15:20:16 [pkra]
- ... GCPM 4 draft should fill them
- 15:20:39 [pkra]
- ... some questions about paginated view in general.
- 15:20:53 [pkra]
- ... not sure how much CSS WG has discussed this
- 15:21:12 [pkra]
- ... not clear if it should be done more fundamentally / higher up at W3
- 15:21:16 [pkra]
- ... W3C
- 15:21:39 [pkra]
- ... can have conversations with CSS WG meeting.
- 15:22:06 [pkra]
- ivan: little bit uncertain about having tag is more interested in low-level architecture issues.
- 15:22:10 [astearns]
- q+
- 15:22:17 [pkra]
- ... sceptical if they're interested.
- 15:22:37 [pkra]
- ... would imagine some sort of a document this group should produce on paginated views in general (good arguments etc)
- 15:22:47 [pkra]
- ... get a discussion on the advisory forum
- 15:22:54 [pkra]
- ... to discuss this high-level issue with other members
- 15:23:12 [pkra]
- ... probably too late for tpac plenary
- 15:23:25 [pkra]
- ... but that would be a place for a short presentation
- 15:23:35 [brady_duga]
- q+
- 15:23:43 [pkra]
- ... some sweet&short document on the importance & challenge of paginated view
- 15:23:52 [mgylling]
- ack astearns
- 15:23:57 [pkra]
- ... have some place where we can start the discussion
- 15:24:15 [pkra]
- astearns: tag might be interested in access to the results of the paginated view.
- 15:24:22 [pkra]
- ... results from Opera
- 15:24:29 [pkra]
- ... you have no way of telling which content lands on which page
- 15:24:45 [pkra]
- ... not useful for our purposes when you don't know where e.g. footnotes landed.
- 15:24:55 [mgylling]
- ack brady_duga
- 15:25:21 [pkra]
- brady_duga: that's what I brought up at last years tpac
- 15:25:38 [pkra]
- mgylling: there's a fundamental spec missing?
- 15:25:43 [pkra]
- ivan: little bit more general
- 15:25:49 [pkra]
- ... not just a spec but a "view of the world"
- 15:25:54 [astearns]
- spec so far: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow/#paginated-overflow (empty section with three issues) :)
- 15:25:57 [pkra]
- ... it might affect several specs
- 15:26:19 [pkra]
- ... currently fundamental belief: everything on the web should be done by scrollable view
- 15:26:26 [pkra]
- ... this would need to be challenged
- 15:26:35 [tzviya]
- q+
- 15:26:42 [pkra]
- dauwhe: second that.
- 15:26:53 [pkra]
- ivan: what can we do?
- 15:27:09 [pkra]
- dauwhe: talk to Peter Lance (?) if there's any tag interest in that.
- 15:27:21 [dauwhe]
- s/Lance/Linss/
- 15:27:21 [ivan]
- s/Lance(?)/Linss/
- 15:27:26 [mgylling]
- ack tzviya
- 15:27:33 [pkra]
- mgylling: see also link from astearns
- 15:27:52 [pkra]
- tzviya: what we came on with epub/edupub -- content that some people called "card" or "page"
- 15:28:05 [pkra]
- ... fundamentally a display problem
- 15:28:44 [Luc]
- q+
- 15:28:47 [pkra]
- ... would probably have fit before <article> was designed [??? not sure if I caught that right]
- 15:29:08 [pkra]
- astearns: as a developer, I look at massive change of bringing in pagination to browsers
- 15:29:19 [astearns]
- s/astearns/???/
- 15:29:32 [ivan]
- s/astearns/brady_duga/
- 15:29:36 [pkra]
- ... will take years, probably not to every browser on all devices
- 15:29:49 [pkra]
- ... as a developer I don't know if I will be able to change to it ever.
- 15:30:00 [pkra]
- ... basically the risk of revolutionary change
- 15:30:07 [pkra]
- ... would be more in favor of evolutionary change
- 15:30:34 [pkra]
- dauwhe: paginated view certainly exist in ebook readers
- 15:30:48 [pkra]
- ... publishers want to be able to say "put this at the top/bottom of the page"
- 15:30:54 [ivan]
- q+
- 15:30:57 [pkra]
- ... so I'm not sure what small steps can get us to statements like that
- 15:31:14 [pkra]
- brady_duga: I'm not sure either but I'm sure that if we only describe giant steps, it is doomed.
- 15:31:57 [pkra]
- ... if a few platforms support, then it would take too much effort away from platforms that don't have such features
- 15:32:12 [pkra]
- ???: would be in favor of small steps.
- 15:32:21 [ivan]
- s/???/astearns/
- 15:32:27 [pkra]
- ... using JS to break into pages. Or use CSS regions.
- 15:32:37 [pkra]
- ... but CSS was a step too far.
- 15:33:03 [pkra]
- s/CSS/CSS-Regions
- 15:33:28 [mgylling]
- ack Luc
- 15:33:30 [pkra]
- ... if you can suggest features that would help move in small steps, I'd love to hear them, I just don't know them
- 15:33:58 [pkra]
- Luc: to add, even in a scrollable window, if we consider the web display is always scrollable, as a publisher we need some information.
- 15:34:22 [pkra]
- ... we need that information in scrollable,e.g, footnotes/notes
- 15:35:32 [pkra]
- ... in long HTML documents, we need to display more information in the context of the reader, even in scrollable
- 15:35:49 [pkra]
- ... need to make running heads and footnotes available
- 15:36:10 [pkra]
- ... if I say the web is scrollable only, what do I need to make contextual information available to the reader?
- 15:36:58 [mgylling]
- ack ivan
- 15:36:59 [pkra]
- dauwhe: to some degree, you'd have the viewport. But then it might end up as a fixed position in the viewport.
- 15:37:41 [pkra]
- ivan: we should be careful not to run ahead. I fully understand Brady's warning. We've had browser devs fighting over this before -- feature coming to one browser but not the other.
- 15:37:59 [pkra]
- ... we still need a document what we would need in an ideal world.
- 15:38:09 [pkra]
- ... then we can discuss where to make compromises to get it rolling
- 15:38:30 [pkra]
- ... I currently don't know where to go to get information on this.
- 15:38:36 [pkra]
- mgylling: a chapter of latinrec?
- 15:38:55 [pkra]
- ivan: No. A separate document fits better.
- 15:39:00 [pkra]
- dauwhe: +1
- 15:39:37 [pkra]
- mgylling: should we gather common resources to try to collect this document and make this a target for fall?
- 15:39:47 [astearns]
- :)
- 15:40:01 [pkra]
- dauwhe: I volunteer. It's at the heart of the issues I want to solve.
- 15:40:24 [Luc]
- I'd like to help Dave on this
- 15:40:28 [pkra]
- mgylling: anyone else?
- 15:40:38 [pkra]
- Luc: I volunteer.
- 15:40:53 [pkra]
- tzviya: I can give use cases from STEM.
- 15:41:15 [pkra]
- mgylling: brady_duga's use cases on the wiki (positioning, API stuff)
- 15:41:26 [pkra]
- brady_duga: I volunteer as non-lead.
- 15:41:34 [pkra]
- dauwhe: volunteer to lead.
- 15:42:12 [pkra]
- mgylling: ivan & dauwhe will sort out technical details.
- 15:43:02 [pkra]
- ivan: dauwhe, re task force update; other languages. We have interest from Chinese specialist.
- 15:43:14 [pkra]
- ... asked her to join us for a session at tpac.
- 15:43:44 [pkra]
- ... more generally, let's have some coordination call before tpac with ??? Ichida [???] , i18n group.
- 15:43:58 [pkra]
- ... some interest to do the same for Indic languages
- 15:43:59 [Karen]
- s/???/Cindy from China
- 15:44:17 [ivan]
- s/??? Ichida/Richard Ishida/
- 15:44:18 [Karen]
- s/Ichida/[???]/Richard Ishida
- 15:44:31 [tzviya]
- I speak and read hebrew (also RTL)
- 15:44:42 [pkra]
- ... would be necessary to bring in Arabic and Hebrew
- 15:45:06 [pkra]
- mgylling: we have some specialists for Arabic pagination
- 15:45:40 [pkra]
- ivan: call before tpac?
- 15:45:56 [pkra]
- mgylling: not a lot to say at this point. Should we get something more tangible?
- 15:46:07 [pkra]
- ivan: makes sense but we need to schedule ahead given his time constraints.
- 15:46:28 [pkra]
- mgylling: moving on
- 15:46:37 [pkra]
- ... PF meeting later today
- 15:46:51 [ivan]
- q+
- 15:47:00 [mgylling]
- ack ivan
- 15:47:14 [pkra]
- ivan: two issues we wanted to discuss with PF
- 15:47:50 [pkra]
- ... 1) via Deborah: talk about how a11y task force would work with them. Not 100% sure they can cover everything.
- 15:48:10 [pkra]
- ... there is a plan for a call to discuss this long term.
- 15:48:44 [pkra]
- ... 2) structural semantics, whether aria-role can be used for what we have in mind in DPUB IG.
- 15:49:17 [pkra]
- personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit
- 15:49:27 [pkra]
- ... personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit
- 15:49:45 [pkra]
- mgylling: structural sem / role attribute. We had a small call before summer break.
- 15:49:52 [clown]
- clown has joined #dpub
- 15:50:29 [clown]
- clown has left #dpub
- 15:50:36 [pkra]
- ... where we had preliminary discussions
- 15:50:38 [Zakim]
- -duga
- 15:50:48 [pkra]
- ... which discussion to be had where; task forces etc.
- 15:51:06 [pkra]
- ... to summarize, PF open to idea. They have a plan, will be described later.
- 15:51:13 [pkra]
- ... joint subgroups etc.
- 15:51:27 [pkra]
- ... to develop and maintain extended vocabularies to the role attribute.
- 15:51:50 [pkra]
- ... however: main blocking has been HTML5 with its lock-down of roles.
- 15:51:59 [pkra]
- .. but a good place to start.
- 15:52:46 [pkra]
- ivan: will mgylling chair?
- 15:53:00 [pkra]
- mgylling: yes, but will be running late. Ivan will start.
- 15:53:26 [pkra]
- ... who will attend?
- 15:53:42 [pkra]
- ... tcole, luc, tzviya, pkra, ivan, mgylling
- 15:53:52 [pkra]
- ... [[who else?]]
- 15:54:30 [pkra]
- guest_dale (??): I'm McGrawHill accessibility lead
- 15:54:48 [pkra]
- guest_SusanMcCaulick(??): Nook
- 15:55:18 [pkra]
- mgylling: any other business?
- 15:55:24 [pkra]
- ivan: sign up for tpac!
- 15:55:49 [pkra]
- tzviya: is there a preliminary agenda (for DPUB IG)?
- 15:55:56 [dkaplan3]
- s/[[who else?]]/dkaplan3, [[who else?]]/
- 15:55:57 [ivan]
- http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
- 15:56:06 [pkra]
- ivan: not yet. the IG has to do this itself.
- 15:56:11 [pkra]
- ... see link
- 15:56:18 [pkra]
- ... for other groups.
- 15:56:25 [Zakim]
- -mgylling
- 15:56:26 [Zakim]
- -dkaplan3
- 15:56:27 [Zakim]
- -Tzviya
- 15:56:28 [Zakim]
- -??P29
- 15:56:28 [Zakim]
- -azaroth
- 15:56:28 [Zakim]
- -Julie
- 15:56:29 [Zakim]
- -Karen_Myers
- 15:56:29 [Zakim]
- -Stearns
- 15:56:30 [TimCole]
- TimCole has left #dpub
- 15:56:30 [Zakim]
- -dauwhe
- 15:56:30 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 15:56:30 [Zakim]
- -??P8
- 15:56:30 [Zakim]
- - +1.617.640.aabb
- 15:56:32 [Zakim]
- -TimCole
- 15:56:32 [Zakim]
- -clapierre1
- 15:56:33 [Zakim]
- -Vlad
- 15:56:33 [Zakim]
- -murakami
- 15:56:34 [Zakim]
- -pkra
- 15:56:34 [Zakim]
- -LauraD
- 15:56:36 [Zakim]
- -fjh
- 15:56:36 [Zakim]
- -pBelfanti
- 15:56:37 [clapierre]
- clapierre has left #dpub
- 15:56:38 [Zakim]
- -david_stroup
- 15:56:39 [dkaplan3]
- dkaplan3 has left #dpub
- 15:56:40 [Zakim]
- DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
- 15:56:40 [Zakim]
- Attendees were azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, duga, TimCole, pBelfanti, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup, fjh,
- 15:56:40 [Zakim]
- ... LauraD, +1.617.640.aabb
- 15:56:53 [ivan]
- trackbot, end telcon
- 15:56:53 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 15:56:53 [Zakim]
- sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
- 15:57:01 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 15:57:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
- 15:57:02 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 15:57:02 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items
- 16:14:56 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #dpub
- 16:14:56 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
- 16:15:06 [ivan]
- rrsagent, set log public
- 16:54:22 [ivan]
- ivan has joined #dpub
- 16:57:11 [janina]
- janina has joined #dpub
- 16:57:25 [dkaplan3]
- dkaplan3 has joined #dpub
- 16:57:37 [Zakim]
- DPUB_IG()1:00PM has now started
- 16:57:44 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 16:57:49 [janina]
- zakim, ??P0 is me
- 16:57:49 [Zakim]
- +janina; got it
- 16:57:51 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 16:57:51 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 16:57:52 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 16:58:05 [tzviya]
- tzviya has joined #DPUB
- 16:58:51 [Zakim]
- +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 16:58:58 [Luc]
- Luc has joined #dpub
- 16:59:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- richardschwerdtfeger has joined #dpub
- 16:59:17 [Zakim]
- +dkaplan3
- 16:59:51 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 16:59:56 [Zakim]
- +George_Kerscher
- 17:00:08 [Zakim]
- +Tzviya
- 17:00:13 [ivan]
- zakim, ??P9 is Luc
- 17:00:13 [Zakim]
- +Luc; got it
- 17:00:44 [Zakim]
- + +1.717.635.aaaa
- 17:01:48 [Susann_Keohane]
- Susann_Keohane has joined #dpub
- 17:01:51 [Zakim]
- +pBelfanti
- 17:02:11 [ivan]
- zakim, aaaa is Matt_Haaf
- 17:02:11 [Zakim]
- +Matt_Haaf; got it
- 17:02:17 [Zakim]
- +Suzann_Keohane
- 17:02:19 [pbelfanti]
- pbelfanti has joined #dpub
- 17:02:37 [Zakim]
- +david_stroup
- 17:02:39 [ivan]
- zakim, Matt_Haaf is Matt_Haas
- 17:02:39 [Zakim]
- +Matt_Haas; got it
- 17:02:55 [ivan]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:02:55 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see janina, Ivan, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, dkaplan3, Luc, George_Kerscher, Tzviya, Matt_Haas, pBelfanti, Suzann_Keohane, david_stroup
- 17:02:58 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see pbelfanti, Susann_Keohane, richardschwerdtfeger, Luc, tzviya, dkaplan3, janina, ivan, RRSAgent, pkra, murakami, dauwhe, Zakim, fjh, Karen, liam, astearns, plinss,
- 17:02:58 [Zakim]
- ... trackbot
- 17:03:08 [ShaneM]
- ShaneM has joined #dpub
- 17:03:28 [Zakim]
- +dauwhe
- 17:03:32 [david_stroup]
- david_stroup has joined #dpub
- 17:03:40 [clown]
- clown has joined #dpub
- 17:03:56 [Zakim]
- +Shane_McCarron
- 17:04:34 [ShaneM]
- Zakim, I am Shane_McCarron
- 17:04:34 [Zakim]
- ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron
- 17:04:45 [Zakim]
- +[GVoice]
- 17:04:52 [clown]
- zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:04:52 [Zakim]
- +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
- 17:04:57 [matt]
- matt has joined #dpub
- 17:05:03 [clown]
- zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:05:03 [Zakim]
- ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:05:14 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia_Shelly
- 17:05:15 [david_stroup]
- 85-217
- 17:05:33 [matt]
- Matt Haas here, from Pearson… glad to part of the call.
- 17:05:33 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 17:05:43 [TimCole]
- TimCole has joined #dpub
- 17:06:17 [Zakim]
- +TimCole
- 17:06:31 [tzviya]
- ivan: DPUB is looking at 2 issues
- 17:06:43 [tzviya]
- ...structural semantics and accessibility
- 17:07:27 [ivan]
- zakim, pick a victim
- 17:07:27 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 17:07:40 [ivan]
- zakim, pick a victim
- 17:07:40 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TimCole
- 17:07:56 [ivan]
- scribe: TimCole
- 17:08:00 [ivan]
- scribenick: TimCole
- 17:08:15 [TimCole]
- begin with structural semantics
- 17:08:58 [TimCole]
- issues: working on building vocabulary we would like to see added in Open Web Platform
- 17:09:11 [mgylling]
- mgylling has joined #dpub
- 17:09:24 [TimCole]
- examples: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML
- 17:09:32 [TimCole]
- who is talking?
- 17:09:58 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 17:10:07 [mgylling]
- Zakim, ??P8 is me
- 17:10:07 [Zakim]
- +mgylling; got it
- 17:10:09 [tzviya]
- http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
- 17:10:24 [TimCole]
- tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated behaviors.
- 17:10:53 [TimCole]
- a key reason is because of the way some of these elements interact with assistative technologies
- 17:10:56 [Zakim]
- + +1.541.678.aabb
- 17:11:14 [TimCole]
- Rich move from role to something else.
- 17:11:14 [Zakim]
- +Jon_Gunderson
- 17:11:44 [ivan]
- zakim, aabb is Matt_King
- 17:11:44 [Zakim]
- +Matt_King; got it
- 17:12:19 [TimCole]
- tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF
- 17:12:25 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #dpub
- 17:12:27 [ivan]
- q?
- 17:12:45 [TimCole]
- Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator
- 17:12:58 [TimCole]
- tzviya: Absolutely.
- 17:13:22 [cyns]
- cyns has joined #dpub
- 17:14:00 [TimCole]
- rich - currently limit aria values
- 17:14:17 [mattking]
- mattking has joined #dpub
- 17:14:30 [bgaraventa1979]
- bgaraventa1979 has joined #dpub
- 17:14:59 [TimCole]
- Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about values...
- 17:15:08 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
- 17:15:08 [Zakim]
- sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
- 17:15:26 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
- 17:15:26 [Zakim]
- sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
- 17:15:48 [TimCole]
- clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into a property
- 17:16:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- <div role=“chapter region”>
- 17:17:30 [TimCole]
- Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as fall back)?
- 17:18:20 [Zakim]
- -Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:18:37 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 17:18:41 [lisaseeman]
- lisaseeman has joined #dpub
- 17:18:53 [TimCole]
- markus? - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to get them to include basic semantics
- 17:19:27 [TimCole]
- tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much.
- 17:19:41 [LisaSeeman]
- LisaSeeman has joined #dpub
- 17:20:09 [TimCole]
- Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no semantics
- 17:20:19 [clapierre]
- clapierre has joined #DPUB
- 17:20:31 [LisaSeeman]
- sorry Im late - just got off the coga call
- 17:20:55 [TimCole]
- Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies have something to work with...
- 17:20:58 [ivan]
- q+
- 17:21:19 [jongund]
- q+
- 17:21:37 [ivan]
- q- later
- 17:21:47 [clapierre]
- clapierre has left #dpub
- 17:21:57 [clown]
- I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to expand the size?
- 17:22:22 [TimCole]
- Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for fall back
- 17:23:10 [TimCole]
- Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single value, falling back to native language may be good enough
- 17:23:24 [mgylling]
- q?
- 17:23:28 [ivan]
- ack jongund
- 17:23:28 [TimCole]
- cynthia - that should be acceptable
- 17:24:16 [TimCole]
- jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How would fall back option affect computed role?
- 17:25:05 [ShaneM]
- q+ to ask about the feasibility of using a private vocabulary for some of the epub-unique roles
- 17:25:49 [pkra]
- sorry I'm late.
- 17:26:34 [TimCole]
- Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed role and if they don't match generate a warning
- 17:27:30 [ivan]
- ack ivan
- 17:27:45 [TimCole]
- jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3 and HTML5 for validation
- 17:28:16 [TimCole]
- Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles while HTML 5 group is doing their thing?
- 17:28:36 [TimCole]
- Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term
- 17:29:05 [tzviya]
- q+
- 17:29:12 [TimCole]
- Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document that both PF and HTML 5 can edit
- 17:29:27 [TimCole]
- Ivan - do that reference that document?
- 17:29:35 [TimCole]
- Shane - they refer to it manually.
- 17:29:50 [TimCole]
- Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document?
- 17:29:57 [TimCole]
- Shane - that is my understanding
- 17:30:30 [TimCole]
- Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either group, but how big is EPUB list
- 17:30:45 [TimCole]
- ??? about 100 terms
- 17:30:45 [tzviya]
- epub 3 structural semantic vocab http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
- 17:30:56 [tzviya]
- s/???/tzviya
- 17:31:04 [dauwhe]
- Is this the doc in question? http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
- 17:31:16 [TimCole]
- Shane - the role attribute spec references the document.
- 17:31:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- q?
- 17:32:11 [TimCole]
- ??? role attribute spec allows for independent role vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism
- 17:32:28 [ivan]
- s/???/Shane/
- 17:32:34 [TimCole]
- ??? would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped?
- 17:32:42 [ivan]
- s/???/Shane/
- 17:33:19 [TimCole]
- markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more niched (albeit still important)
- 17:33:36 [TimCole]
- markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated out in a prefixed way.
- 17:34:01 [TimCole]
- ??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic, most crucial
- 17:34:01 [ivan]
- q+
- 17:34:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- q?
- 17:34:19 [ivan]
- ack ShaneM
- 17:34:25 [Luc]
- It would preferable to have a general mechanism for adding vocabulary for EPUB
- 17:35:20 [TimCole]
- shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop
- 17:35:44 [TimCole]
- Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly used -- is this a fair assumption
- 17:35:50 [TimCole]
- markus - yes
- 17:36:11 [ivan]
- ack tzviya
- 17:36:22 [ivan]
- ack Shane_McCarron
- 17:36:22 [Zakim]
- Shane_McCarron, you wanted to ask about the feasibility of using a private vocabulary for some of the epub-unique roles
- 17:36:38 [TimCole]
- tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it everywhere
- 17:36:40 [Luc]
- +1
- 17:36:55 [TimCole]
- tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author
- 17:37:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- role=“epub:chapter”
- 17:37:21 [LisaSeeman]
- q+
- 17:37:35 [TimCole]
- tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example
- 17:37:41 [ivan]
- q-
- 17:37:48 [ivan]
- ack LisaSeeman
- 17:38:11 [TimCole]
- tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are less likely to get used.
- 17:38:57 [mgylling]
- http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
- 17:39:00 [TimCole]
- lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but also for others with cognitive disabilities
- 17:39:08 [janina]
- q+ to ask whether we intend these roles only for a11y? Or also for general use?
- 17:39:43 [TimCole]
- ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other communities
- 17:39:50 [ShaneM]
- Note that some roles are already esoteric.
- 17:40:02 [ivan]
- ack janina
- 17:40:02 [Zakim]
- janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles only for a11y? Or also for general use?
- 17:40:08 [LisaSeeman]
- ack lisa
- 17:40:41 [ShaneM]
- "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is something I get to say all the time.
- 17:40:45 [TimCole]
- janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a general applicability?
- 17:40:50 [TimCole]
- several - yes.
- 17:41:28 [TimCole]
- Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening this up to broader community.
- 17:42:17 [TimCole]
- ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where we want to go and how.
- 17:42:55 [TimCole]
- Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria subteam)
- 17:43:40 [TimCole]
- markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf want to know is the size of the effort.
- 17:44:30 [TimCole]
- Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other stakeholders within idpf
- 17:44:44 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 17:45:04 [Zakim]
- -Shane_McCarron
- 17:45:27 [TimCole]
- janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf side
- 17:45:55 [Zakim]
- +Shane_McCarron
- 17:45:56 [TimCole]
- ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try to find time to have a session together
- 17:46:01 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 17:46:01 [ShaneM]
- zakim, I am Shane_McCarron
- 17:46:02 [Zakim]
- ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron
- 17:46:52 [LisaSeeman]
- zakim, I am [IPcaller]
- 17:46:52 [Zakim]
- ok, LisaSeeman, I now associate lisaseeman with [IPcaller]
- 17:47:06 [TimCole]
- deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate with PF?
- 17:47:30 [TimCole]
- ??? need someone to take lead and run with this.
- 17:47:47 [TimCole]
- this will take weekly or near weekly meetings
- 17:47:59 [ivan]
- s/???/Rich/
- 17:48:32 [TimCole]
- markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad collaboration
- 17:48:57 [TimCole]
- janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as with a general statement about liaison
- 17:49:06 [TimCole]
- ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables?
- 17:49:34 [TimCole]
- deborah - what are the deliverables?
- 17:50:12 [TimCole]
- rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers, 3. guidelines for authors
- 17:51:22 [TimCole]
- we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write specification for implementation
- 17:52:15 [TimCole]
- ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig contribute?
- 17:52:31 [dauwhe]
- dauwhe has joined #dpub
- 17:52:53 [TimCole]
- Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the platform
- 17:53:25 [TimCole]
- rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to navigate by book chapter?
- 17:53:52 [TimCole]
- rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF?
- 17:55:17 [TimCole]
- rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines how the browser uses this structure?
- 17:55:49 [TimCole]
- markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at least) with dp ig / IDPF
- 17:56:11 [TimCole]
- focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs
- 17:56:26 [TimCole]
- ??? how about authoring practices?
- 17:57:04 [TimCole]
- markus - there are already some resources on authoring best practices
- 17:58:02 [Zakim]
- -dauwhe
- 17:58:20 [Zakim]
- -Matt_King
- 17:58:34 [TimCole]
- ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and see how complete they are for dp
- 17:59:09 [TimCole]
- deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified
- 17:59:59 [tzviya]
- q+
- 18:00:00 [TimCole]
- george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way
- 18:00:18 [ivan]
- ack tzviya
- 18:01:10 [TimCole]
- tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps. can deborah work with tzviya and janina
- 18:01:44 [TimCole]
- to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other groups may work on these issues
- 18:02:15 [TimCole]
- ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC
- 18:02:34 [Zakim]
- -Suzann_Keohane
- 18:02:50 [Zakim]
- -Shane_McCarron
- 18:03:12 [janina]
- public-pfwg@w3.org
- 18:04:08 [Zakim]
- -Jon_Gunderson
- 18:04:10 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 18:04:11 [Zakim]
- -mgylling
- 18:04:11 [Zakim]
- -Luc
- 18:04:13 [Zakim]
- -Tzviya
- 18:04:13 [Zakim]
- -Cynthia_Shelly
- 18:04:14 [Zakim]
- -dkaplan3
- 18:04:14 [Zakim]
- -George_Kerscher
- 18:04:15 [Zakim]
- -TimCole
- 18:04:15 [Zakim]
- -david_stroup
- 18:04:17 [jongund]
- jongund has left #dpub
- 18:04:17 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 18:04:19 [Zakim]
- -pBelfanti
- 18:04:20 [Zakim]
- -Matt_Haas
- 18:04:20 [Zakim]
- -janina
- 18:04:22 [Zakim]
- -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 18:04:24 [ivan]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 18:04:24 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
- 18:04:28 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 18:04:29 [Zakim]
- DPUB_IG()1:00PM has ended
- 18:04:29 [Zakim]
- Attendees were janina, Ivan, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, dkaplan3, George_Kerscher, Tzviya, Luc, +1.717.635.aaaa, pBelfanti, Suzann_Keohane, david_stroup, Matt_Haas, dauwhe,
- 18:04:29 [Zakim]
- ... Shane_McCarron, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], TimCole, mgylling, +1.541.678.aabb, Jon_Gunderson, Matt_King, [IPcaller]
- 18:04:48 [janina]
- ARIA Ppeople, we can continue in #aria
- 18:05:42 [matt]
- matt has left #dpub
- 18:07:21 [pkra]
- pkra has joined #dpub
- 18:16:11 [clown]
- clown has left #dpub
- 18:47:46 [pkra]
- pkra has joined #dpub
- 19:47:02 [fjh]
- fjh has joined #dpub
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- fjh_ has joined #dpub
- 21:05:39 [astearns_]
- astearns_ has joined #dpub
- 22:05:04 [janina]
- janina has joined #dpub