IRC log of dpub on 2014-08-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:03:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
14:03:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:03:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dpub
14:03:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
14:03:06 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 57 minutes
14:03:07 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:03:07 [trackbot]
Date: 25 August 2014
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mgylling has joined #dpub
14:55:16 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:22 [Zakim]
+azaroth
14:55:55 [murakami]
murakami has joined #dpub
14:56:10 [mgylling]
mgylling has changed the topic to: meeting agenda for 2014-08-25: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Aug/0018.html
14:57:39 [mgylling]
zakim, code?
14:57:39 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling
14:57:41 [Zakim]
+clapierre1
14:58:25 [tzviya]
tzviya has joined #dpub
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+dauwhe
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pkra has joined #dpub
14:59:06 [Zakim]
+Tzviya
14:59:16 [Zakim]
+pkra
14:59:36 [Zakim]
+??P26
14:59:40 [Zakim]
+??P25
14:59:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.339.203.aaaa
14:59:51 [murakami]
zakim,??P26 is me
14:59:51 [Zakim]
+murakami; got it
15:00:02 [mgylling]
zakim, ??P25 is me
15:00:02 [Zakim]
+mgylling; got it
15:00:18 [dkaplan3]
zakim, +1.339.203.aaaa is me
15:00:18 [Zakim]
+dkaplan3; got it
15:00:42 [mgylling]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3
15:00:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
15:00:47 [Zakim]
+Stearns
15:00:51 [Zakim]
+??P29
15:00:52 [TimCole]
TimCole has joined #dpub
15:01:16 [mgylling]
Regrets: Michael Miller, Bill Kasdorf
15:01:26 [brady_duga]
brady_duga has joined #dpub
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+duga
15:01:45 [Zakim]
+TimCole
15:02:06 [dauwhe]
Phil Madans is on vacation this week.
15:02:21 [Zakim]
-TimCole
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+pBelfanti
15:02:53 [pbelfanti]
pbelfanti has joined #dpub
15:03:03 [Zakim]
+TimCole
15:03:08 [mgylling]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole
15:03:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss,
15:03:10 [Zakim]
... trackbot
15:03:30 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:03:30 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:03:32 [Zakim]
+Ivan
15:03:51 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
15:03:51 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
15:03:53 [Zakim]
-Ivan
15:03:59 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:04:00 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:04:00 [Zakim]
+Ivan
15:04:07 [Zakim]
+Karen_Myers
15:04:20 [Vlad]
Vlad has joined #dpub
15:04:48 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
15:04:49 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
15:04:49 [Zakim]
-Ivan
15:04:55 [pkra]
mgylling: scribe is pkra
15:04:56 [Zakim]
+Vlad
15:05:06 [Zakim]
+Julie
15:05:17 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:05:17 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:05:18 [Zakim]
+Ivan
15:05:25 [Julie]
Julie has joined #dpub
15:05:28 [Zakim]
+david_stroup
15:05:37 [pkra]
... discussing the fall activities of task forces
15:05:37 [pkra]
...
15:05:42 [pkra]
... call with PF later today
15:05:59 [pkra]
... previous minutes were approved
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:06:04 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
15:06:04 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
15:06:05 [Julie]
Julie is at 646 number
15:06:07 [david_stroup]
david_stroup has joined #dpub
15:06:21 [pkra]
... missing action item for pkra was added to minutes
15:06:22 [david_stroup]
I'm 585-217
15:06:27 [SMc]
SMc has joined #dpub
15:06:44 [pkra]
... some task forces have not yet update the tracker for achievables
15:06:48 [pkra]
... metadata, a11y
15:07:14 [pkra]
... last week not covered: styling & layout
15:07:15 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
15:07:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup,
15:07:20 [Zakim]
... fjh
15:07:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see SMc, david_stroup, Julie, Vlad, pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen,
15:07:20 [Zakim]
... ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
15:07:33 [pkra]
... establish what can be accomplished in fall
15:07:56 [pkra]
dauwhe much progress on CSS WG.
15:08:03 [pkra]
... dropcaps is moving forward
15:08:07 [ldawson]
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15:08:08 [pkra]
... issues around non-western scripts
15:08:10 [ivan]
q+
15:08:18 [pkra]
... not a lot of feedback on that (yet)
15:08:35 [pkra]
... not necessarily a priority for DPUB since latinrec is the target for DPUB IG
15:09:09 [murakami]
http://vivliostyle.com/
15:09:23 [pkra]
... murakami start vivliostyle.com
15:09:34 [pkra]
... getting feedback from implementors would be very good
15:09:44 [pkra]
... otherwise, discussions of footnotes
15:09:48 [Zakim]
+LauraD
15:10:17 [pkra]
... further progress: CSS regions, CSS page templates
15:10:47 [pkra]
... would like to get more clarity, e.g., IDPF, CSS WG, where this should be going => DPUB IG might be able help
15:11:01 [pkra]
... for template layouts
15:11:27 [pkra]
... PTG spec; making extensions to that (running heads)
15:12:08 [pkra]
... many threads at CSS WG which could use feedback
15:12:12 [tzviya]
PTG/s/PGT
15:12:19 [pkra]
... it's all very powerful stuff for long form content
15:12:25 [ivan]
s/PTG/PGT/
15:12:57 [pkra]
... discuss if this is a worthy goal
15:13:15 [tzviya]
q+
15:13:22 [pkra]
mgylling: how does this vary? Is this active work or stalling?
15:13:38 [pkra]
dauwhe: CSS regions very active, implementations in progress
15:13:48 [pkra]
... CSS page template spec => Allan
15:14:06 [pkra]
??? css page template spec. CSS WG open to this cut down version
15:14:20 [pkra]
... doesn't make sense until browsers have paginated view to display these templates
15:14:31 [ivan]
s/???/astearns:/
15:14:31 [pkra]
... pushing browser vendors to implement paginated view
15:14:39 [pkra]
... then continue work on spec
15:14:57 [pkra]
... get browsers on board for touch/scrollable version and paginated version
15:14:59 [mgylling]
q?
15:15:15 [pkra]
dauwhe: obvious interest in this at IDPF
15:15:31 [pkra]
mgylling: what can we do? Just fleshing out latinrec?
15:15:31 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:15:51 [pkra]
tzviya: it might be helpful to get started for DPUB IG to take a look at what dauwhe and astearns have added
15:16:03 [pkra]
... personally, haven't seen PGT for a year...
15:16:21 [pkra]
dauwhe: in the process of writing up something on regions and page templates, footnotes and running heads
15:16:27 [astearns]
css page templates (subset of PGT): http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-template/
15:16:34 [pkra]
... will appear at level 4
15:16:41 [pkra]
... sketching out problem space
15:16:56 [pkra]
... what we want to do with these tools, here are the properties that we need to achieve these goals
15:17:20 [pkra]
mgylling: how do you see this IG and IDPF help out to get this to move forward? Concrete things, plz.
15:17:48 [pkra]
astearns: 1) start threads or respond to threads on www-style mailing list, showing interest in page templates, footnotes, etc
15:17:53 [pkra]
... CSS WG likes use cases
15:18:19 [pkra]
... if you like paginated view and you have a use case for it then it would be very good to hear about it on the list
15:18:41 [pkra]
mgylling: it would help to point IG to threads when they appear.
15:18:47 [pkra]
astearns: will do.
15:19:06 [pkra]
mgylling: PGT not actively pursued at IDPF at this time
15:19:18 [pkra]
... awaiting CSS improvements
15:19:34 [pkra]
... doesn't make sense to start this on the side
15:19:41 [Zakim]
+??P8
15:19:55 [Luc]
Luc has joined #dpub
15:19:56 [pkra]
... question: how much is already in CSS?
15:19:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.640.aabb
15:20:09 [Luc]
Sorry to be late
15:20:09 [pkra]
dauwhe: there are pieces that are not present yet.
15:20:16 [pkra]
... GCPM 4 draft should fill them
15:20:39 [pkra]
... some questions about paginated view in general.
15:20:53 [pkra]
... not sure how much CSS WG has discussed this
15:21:12 [pkra]
... not clear if it should be done more fundamentally / higher up at W3
15:21:16 [pkra]
... W3C
15:21:39 [pkra]
... can have conversations with CSS WG meeting.
15:22:06 [pkra]
ivan: little bit uncertain about having tag is more interested in low-level architecture issues.
15:22:10 [astearns]
q+
15:22:17 [pkra]
... sceptical if they're interested.
15:22:37 [pkra]
... would imagine some sort of a document this group should produce on paginated views in general (good arguments etc)
15:22:47 [pkra]
... get a discussion on the advisory forum
15:22:54 [pkra]
... to discuss this high-level issue with other members
15:23:12 [pkra]
... probably too late for tpac plenary
15:23:25 [pkra]
... but that would be a place for a short presentation
15:23:35 [brady_duga]
q+
15:23:43 [pkra]
... some sweet&short document on the importance & challenge of paginated view
15:23:52 [mgylling]
ack astearns
15:23:57 [pkra]
... have some place where we can start the discussion
15:24:15 [pkra]
astearns: tag might be interested in access to the results of the paginated view.
15:24:22 [pkra]
... results from Opera
15:24:29 [pkra]
... you have no way of telling which content lands on which page
15:24:45 [pkra]
... not useful for our purposes when you don't know where e.g. footnotes landed.
15:24:55 [mgylling]
ack brady_duga
15:25:21 [pkra]
brady_duga: that's what I brought up at last years tpac
15:25:38 [pkra]
mgylling: there's a fundamental spec missing?
15:25:43 [pkra]
ivan: little bit more general
15:25:49 [pkra]
... not just a spec but a "view of the world"
15:25:54 [astearns]
spec so far: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow/#paginated-overflow (empty section with three issues) :)
15:25:57 [pkra]
... it might affect several specs
15:26:19 [pkra]
... currently fundamental belief: everything on the web should be done by scrollable view
15:26:26 [pkra]
... this would need to be challenged
15:26:35 [tzviya]
q+
15:26:42 [pkra]
dauwhe: second that.
15:26:53 [pkra]
ivan: what can we do?
15:27:09 [pkra]
dauwhe: talk to Peter Lance (?) if there's any tag interest in that.
15:27:21 [dauwhe]
s/Lance/Linss/
15:27:21 [ivan]
s/Lance(?)/Linss/
15:27:26 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:27:33 [pkra]
mgylling: see also link from astearns
15:27:52 [pkra]
tzviya: what we came on with epub/edupub -- content that some people called "card" or "page"
15:28:05 [pkra]
... fundamentally a display problem
15:28:44 [Luc]
q+
15:28:47 [pkra]
... would probably have fit before <article> was designed [??? not sure if I caught that right]
15:29:08 [pkra]
astearns: as a developer, I look at massive change of bringing in pagination to browsers
15:29:19 [astearns]
s/astearns/???/
15:29:32 [ivan]
s/astearns/brady_duga/
15:29:36 [pkra]
... will take years, probably not to every browser on all devices
15:29:49 [pkra]
... as a developer I don't know if I will be able to change to it ever.
15:30:00 [pkra]
... basically the risk of revolutionary change
15:30:07 [pkra]
... would be more in favor of evolutionary change
15:30:34 [pkra]
dauwhe: paginated view certainly exist in ebook readers
15:30:48 [pkra]
... publishers want to be able to say "put this at the top/bottom of the page"
15:30:54 [ivan]
q+
15:30:57 [pkra]
... so I'm not sure what small steps can get us to statements like that
15:31:14 [pkra]
brady_duga: I'm not sure either but I'm sure that if we only describe giant steps, it is doomed.
15:31:57 [pkra]
... if a few platforms support, then it would take too much effort away from platforms that don't have such features
15:32:12 [pkra]
???: would be in favor of small steps.
15:32:21 [ivan]
s/???/astearns/
15:32:27 [pkra]
... using JS to break into pages. Or use CSS regions.
15:32:37 [pkra]
... but CSS was a step too far.
15:33:03 [pkra]
s/CSS/CSS-Regions
15:33:28 [mgylling]
ack Luc
15:33:30 [pkra]
... if you can suggest features that would help move in small steps, I'd love to hear them, I just don't know them
15:33:58 [pkra]
Luc: to add, even in a scrollable window, if we consider the web display is always scrollable, as a publisher we need some information.
15:34:22 [pkra]
... we need that information in scrollable,e.g, footnotes/notes
15:35:32 [pkra]
... in long HTML documents, we need to display more information in the context of the reader, even in scrollable
15:35:49 [pkra]
... need to make running heads and footnotes available
15:36:10 [pkra]
... if I say the web is scrollable only, what do I need to make contextual information available to the reader?
15:36:58 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:36:59 [pkra]
dauwhe: to some degree, you'd have the viewport. But then it might end up as a fixed position in the viewport.
15:37:41 [pkra]
ivan: we should be careful not to run ahead. I fully understand Brady's warning. We've had browser devs fighting over this before -- feature coming to one browser but not the other.
15:37:59 [pkra]
... we still need a document what we would need in an ideal world.
15:38:09 [pkra]
... then we can discuss where to make compromises to get it rolling
15:38:30 [pkra]
... I currently don't know where to go to get information on this.
15:38:36 [pkra]
mgylling: a chapter of latinrec?
15:38:55 [pkra]
ivan: No. A separate document fits better.
15:39:00 [pkra]
dauwhe: +1
15:39:37 [pkra]
mgylling: should we gather common resources to try to collect this document and make this a target for fall?
15:39:47 [astearns]
:)
15:40:01 [pkra]
dauwhe: I volunteer. It's at the heart of the issues I want to solve.
15:40:24 [Luc]
I'd like to help Dave on this
15:40:28 [pkra]
mgylling: anyone else?
15:40:38 [pkra]
Luc: I volunteer.
15:40:53 [pkra]
tzviya: I can give use cases from STEM.
15:41:15 [pkra]
mgylling: brady_duga's use cases on the wiki (positioning, API stuff)
15:41:26 [pkra]
brady_duga: I volunteer as non-lead.
15:41:34 [pkra]
dauwhe: volunteer to lead.
15:42:12 [pkra]
mgylling: ivan & dauwhe will sort out technical details.
15:43:02 [pkra]
ivan: dauwhe, re task force update; other languages. We have interest from Chinese specialist.
15:43:14 [pkra]
... asked her to join us for a session at tpac.
15:43:44 [pkra]
... more generally, let's have some coordination call before tpac with ??? Ichida [???] , i18n group.
15:43:58 [pkra]
... some interest to do the same for Indic languages
15:43:59 [Karen]
s/???/Cindy from China
15:44:17 [ivan]
s/??? Ichida/Richard Ishida/
15:44:18 [Karen]
s/Ichida/[???]/Richard Ishida
15:44:31 [tzviya]
I speak and read hebrew (also RTL)
15:44:42 [pkra]
... would be necessary to bring in Arabic and Hebrew
15:45:06 [pkra]
mgylling: we have some specialists for Arabic pagination
15:45:40 [pkra]
ivan: call before tpac?
15:45:56 [pkra]
mgylling: not a lot to say at this point. Should we get something more tangible?
15:46:07 [pkra]
ivan: makes sense but we need to schedule ahead given his time constraints.
15:46:28 [pkra]
mgylling: moving on
15:46:37 [pkra]
... PF meeting later today
15:46:51 [ivan]
q+
15:47:00 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:47:14 [pkra]
ivan: two issues we wanted to discuss with PF
15:47:50 [pkra]
... 1) via Deborah: talk about how a11y task force would work with them. Not 100% sure they can cover everything.
15:48:10 [pkra]
... there is a plan for a call to discuss this long term.
15:48:44 [pkra]
... 2) structural semantics, whether aria-role can be used for what we have in mind in DPUB IG.
15:49:17 [pkra]
personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit
15:49:27 [pkra]
... personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit
15:49:45 [pkra]
mgylling: structural sem / role attribute. We had a small call before summer break.
15:49:52 [clown]
clown has joined #dpub
15:50:29 [clown]
clown has left #dpub
15:50:36 [pkra]
... where we had preliminary discussions
15:50:38 [Zakim]
-duga
15:50:48 [pkra]
... which discussion to be had where; task forces etc.
15:51:06 [pkra]
... to summarize, PF open to idea. They have a plan, will be described later.
15:51:13 [pkra]
... joint subgroups etc.
15:51:27 [pkra]
... to develop and maintain extended vocabularies to the role attribute.
15:51:50 [pkra]
... however: main blocking has been HTML5 with its lock-down of roles.
15:51:59 [pkra]
.. but a good place to start.
15:52:46 [pkra]
ivan: will mgylling chair?
15:53:00 [pkra]
mgylling: yes, but will be running late. Ivan will start.
15:53:26 [pkra]
... who will attend?
15:53:42 [pkra]
... tcole, luc, tzviya, pkra, ivan, mgylling
15:53:52 [pkra]
... [[who else?]]
15:54:30 [pkra]
guest_dale (??): I'm McGrawHill accessibility lead
15:54:48 [pkra]
guest_SusanMcCaulick(??): Nook
15:55:18 [pkra]
mgylling: any other business?
15:55:24 [pkra]
ivan: sign up for tpac!
15:55:49 [pkra]
tzviya: is there a preliminary agenda (for DPUB IG)?
15:55:56 [dkaplan3]
s/[[who else?]]/dkaplan3, [[who else?]]/
15:55:57 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
15:56:06 [pkra]
ivan: not yet. the IG has to do this itself.
15:56:11 [pkra]
... see link
15:56:18 [pkra]
... for other groups.
15:56:25 [Zakim]
-mgylling
15:56:26 [Zakim]
-dkaplan3
15:56:27 [Zakim]
-Tzviya
15:56:28 [Zakim]
-??P29
15:56:28 [Zakim]
-azaroth
15:56:28 [Zakim]
-Julie
15:56:29 [Zakim]
-Karen_Myers
15:56:29 [Zakim]
-Stearns
15:56:30 [TimCole]
TimCole has left #dpub
15:56:30 [Zakim]
-dauwhe
15:56:30 [Zakim]
-Ivan
15:56:30 [Zakim]
-??P8
15:56:30 [Zakim]
- +1.617.640.aabb
15:56:32 [Zakim]
-TimCole
15:56:32 [Zakim]
-clapierre1
15:56:33 [Zakim]
-Vlad
15:56:33 [Zakim]
-murakami
15:56:34 [Zakim]
-pkra
15:56:34 [Zakim]
-LauraD
15:56:36 [Zakim]
-fjh
15:56:36 [Zakim]
-pBelfanti
15:56:37 [clapierre]
clapierre has left #dpub
15:56:38 [Zakim]
-david_stroup
15:56:39 [dkaplan3]
dkaplan3 has left #dpub
15:56:40 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
15:56:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, duga, TimCole, pBelfanti, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup, fjh,
15:56:40 [Zakim]
... LauraD, +1.617.640.aabb
15:56:53 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
15:56:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:56:53 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:57:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
15:57:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
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I see no action items
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
16:15:06 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
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DPUB_IG()1:00PM has now started
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+??P0
16:57:49 [janina]
zakim, ??P0 is me
16:57:49 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
16:57:51 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:57:51 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
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+Ivan
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+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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+dkaplan3
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+??P9
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+George_Kerscher
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+Tzviya
17:00:13 [ivan]
zakim, ??P9 is Luc
17:00:13 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
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+ +1.717.635.aaaa
17:01:48 [Susann_Keohane]
Susann_Keohane has joined #dpub
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+pBelfanti
17:02:11 [ivan]
zakim, aaaa is Matt_Haaf
17:02:11 [Zakim]
+Matt_Haaf; got it
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+Suzann_Keohane
17:02:19 [pbelfanti]
pbelfanti has joined #dpub
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+david_stroup
17:02:39 [ivan]
zakim, Matt_Haaf is Matt_Haas
17:02:39 [Zakim]
+Matt_Haas; got it
17:02:55 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, Ivan, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, dkaplan3, Luc, George_Kerscher, Tzviya, Matt_Haas, pBelfanti, Suzann_Keohane, david_stroup
17:02:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pbelfanti, Susann_Keohane, richardschwerdtfeger, Luc, tzviya, dkaplan3, janina, ivan, RRSAgent, pkra, murakami, dauwhe, Zakim, fjh, Karen, liam, astearns, plinss,
17:02:58 [Zakim]
... trackbot
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+dauwhe
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+Shane_McCarron
17:04:34 [ShaneM]
Zakim, I am Shane_McCarron
17:04:34 [Zakim]
ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron
17:04:45 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
17:04:52 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:52 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
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matt has joined #dpub
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zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:03 [Zakim]
ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:14 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
17:05:15 [david_stroup]
85-217
17:05:33 [matt]
Matt Haas here, from Pearson… glad to part of the call.
17:05:33 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:05:43 [TimCole]
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+TimCole
17:06:31 [tzviya]
ivan: DPUB is looking at 2 issues
17:06:43 [tzviya]
...structural semantics and accessibility
17:07:27 [ivan]
zakim, pick a victim
17:07:27 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:07:40 [ivan]
zakim, pick a victim
17:07:40 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TimCole
17:07:56 [ivan]
scribe: TimCole
17:08:00 [ivan]
scribenick: TimCole
17:08:15 [TimCole]
begin with structural semantics
17:08:58 [TimCole]
issues: working on building vocabulary we would like to see added in Open Web Platform
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17:09:24 [TimCole]
examples: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML
17:09:32 [TimCole]
who is talking?
17:09:58 [Zakim]
+??P8
17:10:07 [mgylling]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
17:10:07 [Zakim]
+mgylling; got it
17:10:09 [tzviya]
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
17:10:24 [TimCole]
tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated behaviors.
17:10:53 [TimCole]
a key reason is because of the way some of these elements interact with assistative technologies
17:10:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.541.678.aabb
17:11:14 [TimCole]
Rich move from role to something else.
17:11:14 [Zakim]
+Jon_Gunderson
17:11:44 [ivan]
zakim, aabb is Matt_King
17:11:44 [Zakim]
+Matt_King; got it
17:12:19 [TimCole]
tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF
17:12:25 [jongund]
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17:12:27 [ivan]
q?
17:12:45 [TimCole]
Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator
17:12:58 [TimCole]
tzviya: Absolutely.
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17:14:00 [TimCole]
rich - currently limit aria values
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17:14:59 [TimCole]
Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about values...
17:15:08 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
17:15:08 [Zakim]
sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:15:26 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:15:26 [Zakim]
sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
17:15:48 [TimCole]
clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into a property
17:16:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
<div role=“chapter region”>
17:17:30 [TimCole]
Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as fall back)?
17:18:20 [Zakim]
-Joseph_Scheuhammer
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+[IPcaller]
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17:18:53 [TimCole]
markus? - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to get them to include basic semantics
17:19:27 [TimCole]
tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much.
17:19:41 [LisaSeeman]
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17:20:09 [TimCole]
Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no semantics
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17:20:31 [LisaSeeman]
sorry Im late - just got off the coga call
17:20:55 [TimCole]
Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies have something to work with...
17:20:58 [ivan]
q+
17:21:19 [jongund]
q+
17:21:37 [ivan]
q- later
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clapierre has left #dpub
17:21:57 [clown]
I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to expand the size?
17:22:22 [TimCole]
Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for fall back
17:23:10 [TimCole]
Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single value, falling back to native language may be good enough
17:23:24 [mgylling]
q?
17:23:28 [ivan]
ack jongund
17:23:28 [TimCole]
cynthia - that should be acceptable
17:24:16 [TimCole]
jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How would fall back option affect computed role?
17:25:05 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask about the feasibility of using a private vocabulary for some of the epub-unique roles
17:25:49 [pkra]
sorry I'm late.
17:26:34 [TimCole]
Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed role and if they don't match generate a warning
17:27:30 [ivan]
ack ivan
17:27:45 [TimCole]
jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3 and HTML5 for validation
17:28:16 [TimCole]
Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles while HTML 5 group is doing their thing?
17:28:36 [TimCole]
Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term
17:29:05 [tzviya]
q+
17:29:12 [TimCole]
Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document that both PF and HTML 5 can edit
17:29:27 [TimCole]
Ivan - do that reference that document?
17:29:35 [TimCole]
Shane - they refer to it manually.
17:29:50 [TimCole]
Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document?
17:29:57 [TimCole]
Shane - that is my understanding
17:30:30 [TimCole]
Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either group, but how big is EPUB list
17:30:45 [TimCole]
??? about 100 terms
17:30:45 [tzviya]
epub 3 structural semantic vocab http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
17:30:56 [tzviya]
s/???/tzviya
17:31:04 [dauwhe]
Is this the doc in question? http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
17:31:16 [TimCole]
Shane - the role attribute spec references the document.
17:31:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:32:11 [TimCole]
??? role attribute spec allows for independent role vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism
17:32:28 [ivan]
s/???/Shane/
17:32:34 [TimCole]
??? would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped?
17:32:42 [ivan]
s/???/Shane/
17:33:19 [TimCole]
markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more niched (albeit still important)
17:33:36 [TimCole]
markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated out in a prefixed way.
17:34:01 [TimCole]
??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic, most crucial
17:34:01 [ivan]
q+
17:34:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:34:19 [ivan]
ack ShaneM
17:34:25 [Luc]
It would preferable to have a general mechanism for adding vocabulary for EPUB
17:35:20 [TimCole]
shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop
17:35:44 [TimCole]
Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly used -- is this a fair assumption
17:35:50 [TimCole]
markus - yes
17:36:11 [ivan]
ack tzviya
17:36:22 [ivan]
ack Shane_McCarron
17:36:22 [Zakim]
Shane_McCarron, you wanted to ask about the feasibility of using a private vocabulary for some of the epub-unique roles
17:36:38 [TimCole]
tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it everywhere
17:36:40 [Luc]
+1
17:36:55 [TimCole]
tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author
17:37:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
role=“epub:chapter”
17:37:21 [LisaSeeman]
q+
17:37:35 [TimCole]
tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example
17:37:41 [ivan]
q-
17:37:48 [ivan]
ack LisaSeeman
17:38:11 [TimCole]
tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are less likely to get used.
17:38:57 [mgylling]
http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
17:39:00 [TimCole]
lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but also for others with cognitive disabilities
17:39:08 [janina]
q+ to ask whether we intend these roles only for a11y? Or also for general use?
17:39:43 [TimCole]
ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other communities
17:39:50 [ShaneM]
Note that some roles are already esoteric.
17:40:02 [ivan]
ack janina
17:40:02 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles only for a11y? Or also for general use?
17:40:08 [LisaSeeman]
ack lisa
17:40:41 [ShaneM]
"Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is something I get to say all the time.
17:40:45 [TimCole]
janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a general applicability?
17:40:50 [TimCole]
several - yes.
17:41:28 [TimCole]
Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening this up to broader community.
17:42:17 [TimCole]
ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where we want to go and how.
17:42:55 [TimCole]
Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria subteam)
17:43:40 [TimCole]
markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf want to know is the size of the effort.
17:44:30 [TimCole]
Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other stakeholders within idpf
17:44:44 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
17:45:04 [Zakim]
-Shane_McCarron
17:45:27 [TimCole]
janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf side
17:45:55 [Zakim]
+Shane_McCarron
17:45:56 [TimCole]
ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try to find time to have a session together
17:46:01 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:46:01 [ShaneM]
zakim, I am Shane_McCarron
17:46:02 [Zakim]
ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron
17:46:52 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, I am [IPcaller]
17:46:52 [Zakim]
ok, LisaSeeman, I now associate lisaseeman with [IPcaller]
17:47:06 [TimCole]
deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate with PF?
17:47:30 [TimCole]
??? need someone to take lead and run with this.
17:47:47 [TimCole]
this will take weekly or near weekly meetings
17:47:59 [ivan]
s/???/Rich/
17:48:32 [TimCole]
markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad collaboration
17:48:57 [TimCole]
janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as with a general statement about liaison
17:49:06 [TimCole]
ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables?
17:49:34 [TimCole]
deborah - what are the deliverables?
17:50:12 [TimCole]
rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers, 3. guidelines for authors
17:51:22 [TimCole]
we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write specification for implementation
17:52:15 [TimCole]
ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig contribute?
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17:52:53 [TimCole]
Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the platform
17:53:25 [TimCole]
rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to navigate by book chapter?
17:53:52 [TimCole]
rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF?
17:55:17 [TimCole]
rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines how the browser uses this structure?
17:55:49 [TimCole]
markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at least) with dp ig / IDPF
17:56:11 [TimCole]
focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs
17:56:26 [TimCole]
??? how about authoring practices?
17:57:04 [TimCole]
markus - there are already some resources on authoring best practices
17:58:02 [Zakim]
-dauwhe
17:58:20 [Zakim]
-Matt_King
17:58:34 [TimCole]
ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and see how complete they are for dp
17:59:09 [TimCole]
deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified
17:59:59 [tzviya]
q+
18:00:00 [TimCole]
george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way
18:00:18 [ivan]
ack tzviya
18:01:10 [TimCole]
tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps. can deborah work with tzviya and janina
18:01:44 [TimCole]
to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other groups may work on these issues
18:02:15 [TimCole]
ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC
18:02:34 [Zakim]
-Suzann_Keohane
18:02:50 [Zakim]
-Shane_McCarron
18:03:12 [janina]
public-pfwg@w3.org
18:04:08 [Zakim]
-Jon_Gunderson
18:04:10 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
18:04:11 [Zakim]
-mgylling
18:04:11 [Zakim]
-Luc
18:04:13 [Zakim]
-Tzviya
18:04:13 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
18:04:14 [Zakim]
-dkaplan3
18:04:14 [Zakim]
-George_Kerscher
18:04:15 [Zakim]
-TimCole
18:04:15 [Zakim]
-david_stroup
18:04:17 [jongund]
jongund has left #dpub
18:04:17 [Zakim]
-Ivan
18:04:19 [Zakim]
-pBelfanti
18:04:20 [Zakim]
-Matt_Haas
18:04:20 [Zakim]
-janina
18:04:22 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:04:24 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:04:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
18:04:28 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
18:04:29 [Zakim]
DPUB_IG()1:00PM has ended
18:04:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were janina, Ivan, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, dkaplan3, George_Kerscher, Tzviya, Luc, +1.717.635.aaaa, pBelfanti, Suzann_Keohane, david_stroup, Matt_Haas, dauwhe,
18:04:29 [Zakim]
... Shane_McCarron, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], TimCole, mgylling, +1.541.678.aabb, Jon_Gunderson, Matt_King, [IPcaller]
18:04:48 [janina]
ARIA Ppeople, we can continue in #aria
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