See also: IRC log
<tantek> http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
<scribe> scribe: hhalpin
Intro to W3C, assuming charter goes to AC without hitch then work starts June
arnaud: ex-W3C member, not a
technical expert in space, but have a good reputation for
driving WGs
... we at IBM want to see this interested re OpenSocial.
evanpro: I've been working on
OStatus, Federated Social Web, Status.Net, been working with
various communities
... what I can bring to the table is some fine-grained
understanding of what works
... and keeping us track for real implementable and usable
systems
... we want real standards for real software
tantek: I'm Tantek, I work for
Mozilla more history at W3C than anyone else here
... was involved in CSS in 1998
... worked on web browsers, worked on HTML, XForms, and more
recently WebApps and SysApps
... I'm pretty sure I was asked to cochair due to IndieWeb
movement
... and a very different approach to doing formats and
protocols
... a strong bias towards implementing ASAP and using it on
your site
... getting working stuff that was implemented several
years
... ago, pushing for less rather than more
... in all areas, process too
... and on AB!
Mark: I work for SAP responsible
for social and semantic standards and engagement
... I was in federal-funded research where I was also AC
rep
... I've been participating in Social Business Group
... working on various white papers
... from a SAP perspective, we want to move this forward
... we have SAP Jam in the business space
... we want to go after 85% of unstructured business work
... got quite a bit of experience chairing, but not in
W3C
... mostly around XML and semantic technologies
... we want to drive the use-cases
... moving around the process a social business
architecture
<tantek> Harry: don't want to repeat what happened in web services
<tantek> … want to keep it lean and mean
<tantek> … see if we can make that (what Tantek & Evan got working) work
<tantek> … there's a lot of grass roots hacker stuff getting uptake
<tantek> … we don't want to see a big company or 2-3 get a monopolistic control in this space
<tantek> … on the day to day running of the wg we have differences of opinion
<tantek> … I am a fan of both models
<tantek> … both w3c weekly telcon model
<tantek> … and a model where you do everything over email or IRC
<tantek> … what I typically do is as soon as things are mature, I recommend transitioning
<tantek> … in the beginning with a diverse audience
<tantek> … I think the socializations aspect of telcons help
<tantek> … also helpful when specs are not as mature as we want
<tantek> … and not getting implementation or need to discuss hard issues
<tantek> … wg in the beginning kind of a rough patch
<tantek> … eventually we get to implementable work
<tantek> … preference is to begin with weekly or biweekly telcon
<tantek> … and then based on how implementation is going
<tantek> … switch to a "WebApps-like" mode
<tantek> … for the WG
<tantek> ... However for the IG
<tantek> … telcons make more sense
<tantek> … since it's about trying to figure out use-cases
<tantek> … and discuss use-cases
mark: biweekly makes sense
... weekly would turn people off
<tantek> (harry, hope my minutes above for you were ok)
mark: within IG we need to build
participation levels
... along with who is going to work on what
... downstream, within particular workstreams
... depends on the individuals in the interest group
evanpro: is it reasonable to do
roadmap of where we see this going?
... first A, B, C.
we could do roadmap while we're under AC vote
<tantek> I'm going to suggest the following "shortnames": socialwg and socialig
some clear dependencies between syntax and API and federation
evanpro: but they will be kinda
dependent on the social data syntax
... so start with syntax, then get that to a form we feel
comfortable with, then start other two in parallel
tantek: just documenting existing
work
... to see what things are varying degrees of success
... then look at next steps
... both me and EvanP has been burned and gotten stuff
working
<Mark> I am good with socialig
<tantek> Thanks Mark
evanpro: I'd be happy to work on
a roadmap
... bringing other people in like Diaspora
... don't want the syntax to be a big mashup
... don't know if we can do a comprehensive
... don't want to do things from scratch
arnaud: I agree, I'm
opinionated
... I'd like to pick a technology
... I think we have a general overview of candidates
... we want a very material proposal
... we did that mistake in LDP solution
... shoving it down people's throat
tantek: I would time box
... got 2 weeks or 1 months
<evanpro> +1 on timeboxing
tantek: here's what we focus on
WG
... then we just jump in discussion
... doesn't mean we stop people from documenting
... that avoids problems of that happening forever
... as far as pick a technology to go with
... we need to be harsh about things that don't have real
implementations
... this is what the IG needs to do, what's the use-cases
... for opensocial
notes that we have some notes to specs in the charter
evanpro: we have little consensus
around API and federation
... at least social API has opensocial work
... so that does work with activitystreams
... but the federation needs to cover the other leg in this
triangle
... lightweight
... and quick to implement and quick to get out
... federated social web did some catalogs
<tantek> I've created top level wiki pages for both socialwg and socialig: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg and https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig
<tantek> harry, I propose having this: http://www.w3.org/Social/WG redirect to this: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg
evanpro: happy to do that
<tantek> and I propose having this: http://www.w3.org/Social/IG redirect to this: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig
I agree
will try to do that, may be hard before WG is approved
but we'll run the web-page as a wiki for the WG and IG
tantek: it's a myth
... the WG tends to do wiki-page and IRC channel
... so we have IRC logs
... and a bot where we leave messages for each other
arnaud: the meeting is a useful
for the heartbeat
... to remind people of where we are and what needs to be
done
... at times we discuss lots of issue
... sometimes the bndwidth of the phone helps
... I can't believe that's sufficient on its on.
tantek: What do we do about work
that doesn't get done?
... all work that is on wiki
... anyone can jump forward
... and do work
... and then people come in and out
... no ownership means that everyone has ownership and
agency
... I'd rather not remind people to get work done
... remind people where we are
... that's hard
... that has been answered by wikipage
... that explains it
... we do have f2f meetings
... in indieweb
... the telecons are informative forums
... they need get a feel for whos who
... and makes things
... happen
... from an emotional perspective/telcos rather than tech
discussions
... that might work
arnaud: a lot of what I do is
explain next step, w3c process
... its herding cats
... making sure people deliver
... in practice we have to keep WGs to their promise
... so if it's anyone, its nobody
tantek: that's a signal that's a
dead-end
... then that tech or format deserves to die
arnaud: only true to a certain
level
... sometimes people would like to do
... but they don't have experience or don't have time
tantek: I don't know process, I
don't know how to specify
... that is useful
... that deserves documentation and use-cases
... rather than focussing on some consensus
... that the group hands to some individual
... not much interest in cat-herding
I propose get telcos for both social ig and social wg
biweekly or weekly?
and then move to a more online forum
evanpro: weekly for first month
<tantek> ACTION: harry http://www.w3.org/Social/WG redirect to this: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-social-minutes.html#action01]
evanpro: after that go for once a month
<tantek> ACTION: Harry http://www.w3.org/Social/IG redirect to this: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-social-minutes.html#action02]
evanpro: we do more than one a month
tantek: I agree with getting
started we need to socialize more
... get people used to workmode
... how to agree on a workmode
... how does group work at all?
... how do people join?
... clarify very quick in a telco with chairs can help
guide
... later on if there are contentious and unresolved
issues
... then we do it on the phone
... if mailing list stops working
... in terms of progress
... that has in my experience how we get unstuck
... actual tech discussions on phone calls I'd be surprised
by
<tantek> I also move that all minutes of our meetings (including this one) be publicly archived
agreed
<Mark> agreed
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