See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 12 May 2014
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> the agenda is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0045.html
<scribe> scribe: MichaelC
rs: how are we to do a heartbeat publication?
jc: in addition to IndieuI?
js: yes we should
jc: been focusing on IndieUI, not a lot done on ARIA
mc: UAIG is more ready for publication
FPWD under its new name
ARIA heartbeat either later or at same time
js: would be good to exercise the new process with GitHub
rs: status on IndieUI?
jc: User Context pretty much ready for FPWD, about a week to ready for Events
js: planning a CfC on that this week
rs: so can we publish ARIA at end of month?
jc: sure, we could
lots of formatting changes
though nothing to prevent publication
mc: publishing moratorium 6 - 11 June 2014
otherwise we can target Tue / Thur with a few days advance notice
rs: so end of May?
mc: ok for me
jc: what are you looking for in it?
rs: e.g., role=none
jc: have mostly put in editorial changes
but could throw in some more stuff by end of month
mc: substantive edits need time for group review
plan for that in timeline, or defer them to next heartbeat
mc: June 5 last pub day before moratorium, need doc ready by June 2
(May 29 for UAIG FPWD)
need at least a week review time, so edits done by May 26
so two weeks from today
jc: some edits, @@
some would be good to get in, others can wait
think IndieUI is focus for this week
rs: also setsize
jc: that one is just editorial I think
rs: can pass on table for now
<jcraig> rs: posinset and setsize on tabs ACTION-1352
<jcraig> action-1352?
<trackbot> action-1352 -- James Craig to Patch issue-576: add aria-posinset, and aria-setsize to tab role -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1352
role=none and action-1352 priorities
hint?
jc: not critical
none is a bigger edit than it seems
jc: would like to migrate issues to bugzilla so can process
mc: we already have in theory for public comments, just haven´t been comments yet
haven´t decided what to do for tracker
jc: action prioritization would be easier
need some components
mc: didn´t realize that, send me what you need set up
ss: can use role=none yet?
rs: need UA implementation first
jn: does IE ??
cs: IE takes first role
jn: IE won´t backport, right?
jc: @@
cs: so role cascade is high priority feature
jc: yes
starting to do stuff that need that
cs: will pass that along
didn´t know it was a priority, may surprise IE team
jc: priority because other browsers calculate
cs: didn´t know was used in the wild
jc: not yet but we set up for that in 1.0 and expect to use soon
<jcraig> role="foo link"
<jcraig> role="specialbutton button"
ls: there was a proposal to allow roles to concurrently hold multiple roles
jc: this is just about supporting the first recognized role
cs: multiple inheritance propose patterns in ARIA 2
an aria-active state
<jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#host_general_role
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/587
issue-587?
<trackbot> issue-587 -- Consider allowing the aria-selected state on any focusable element, or add a new attr like aria-active or aria-current -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/587
<jcraig> The first name literal of a non-abstract WAI-ARIA role in the list of tokens in the role attribute defines the role according to which the user agent MUST process the element. User Agent processing for roles is defined in the WAI-ARIA User Agent Implementation Guide [ARIA-IMPLEMENTATION].
rs: issue is whether to allow aria-selected on any focusable element
have determined can´t do on radio button, will need to be sure to exclude
on tabs, is there active or selected?
cs: there is focused, selected
what is active?
rs: e.g., in tablist with active tab, and you go into panel
jc: applies e.g., to page you´re currently on
cs: don´t have now, will suggest it
concerned ¨active¨ will be confused with CSS pseudoclass
<jcraig> +1 to "current"
maybe ¨current¨
<jcraig> "Current thread is suggesting aria-current over aria-active. James Craig, 24 Apr 2014, 08:00:44"
<jcraig> FWIW, I'm worried about overloading "selected" which currently implies user-selectability to mean something else on readonly or static interface elements like links. The term "selected" is already misused or overused. It's commonly confused with other similar terms like focused, activated, etc. ARIA 1.0 at least uses aria-selected consistently. If we change that, I think we'd b introducing more confusion for authors.
<jcraig> There is also PFWG-ISSUE-504 to consider, where where we want to change the taxonomy so that aria-selected is NOT allowed on radio buttons to avoid author confusion. Radio buttons currently inherit aria-selected from the option role and inherit aria-checked from the checkbox role, so authors frequently use aria-selected="true" on radios when they intend to use aria-checked="true".
<jcraig> Despite my objections to using aria-selected on *any* focusable element, I think the idea of indicating which link points to the current page is sound, and am generally supportive of adding either a new attribute, or allowing aria-selected on more roles such as link.
<jcraig> James Craig, 20 Jun 2013, 17:27:37
jg: current sounds good to me
jc: ^
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention my comment listed in the issue
<jcraig> issue-504?
<trackbot> issue-504 -- radio shouldn't have aria-selected -- closed
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/504
<jcraig> action-1338
<trackbot> action-1338 -- James Craig to Patch issue-504, then assign to cooper for the taxonomy doc -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1338
rs: would like to remove aria-selected from radio; requires taxonomy change
jc: we already resolved that
jg: thought it was the visible tab panel is selected
what if something is ¨current¨ but not visible? error?
ls: tab panels work well with current semantics
aria-hidden works well
do we need to add semantics that require authors to know fine details?
jc: this is not so much for tab panels in spite of example above
<richardschwerdtfeger> “In either case, authors SHOULD ensure that a selected tab has its aria-selected attribute set to true, that inactive tab elements have their aria-selected attribute set to false, and that the currently selected tab provides a visual indication that it is selected. In the absence of an aria-selected attribute on the current tab, user agents SHOULD indicate to assistive technologies through the platform accessibility API that the currently focus[CUT]
steps in a process
<richardschwerdtfeger> is selected."
ls: aria-selected used now
jc: right; have to be clear were we need this and where we don´t
we don´t need it on tabs
ls: ok
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#role_definitions
rs: <brainstorms roles it might go on>
jg: what would AT do?
<jcraig> https://www.yahoo.com
<jcraig> home, mail, news
<jcraig> <a href="/">Home</a>
<jcraig> <a href="/" aria-current="true">Home</a>
jg: don´t need an attribute to know that
jc: for regular HTML, true
<jcraig> <button role="link" aria-current="true">Home</button>
<andrewlarkin> +q
but for roles like above, needed
al: this is important for single-page web apps, or anything using frameworks like backbone where all links link to the same page but load specific content that represent a single "page"
link to same page and load additional content
bg: in a process, a CSS class indicates which step is current
no accessible mechanism except off-screen text
an ARIA attribute that applies to focusable and non-focusable elements would
ls: ??
bg: @@
AT read label of focusable elements, but not all elements
jc: whether text explications get read can depend on situations
this indicator would be in addition to label
bg: yes
<jcraig> <ul>
rs: issues around aria-label anyways
cs: also have graphical indicators of current step
<andrewlarkin> +q
don´t want users to have to jump to the image to find it out
having the property would help out
might modify focus order etc. in response
<jcraig> <ul>
<jcraig> <li>Step 1: Login</li>
<jcraig> <li aria-current="true">Step 2: Add Payment Information</li>
<jcraig> <li>Step 3: Profit</li>
<jcraig> </ul>
<jamesn> we have something we call a train for this http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/ux/applications/fusiongps/patterns/content/guidedprocesses/singletask/nonsequentialhoriz/index.htm
jg: what is the problem we´re solving?
alternative to title?
@@
rs: when you´re in a context
(not selecting for an operation)
know where you are
jg: so user wants to query what the current step is, regardless of where they´re on the page?
or be told current location when landing on a widget?
rs: yes
current step, or current location within context
it´s like a point of regard that you can refer to
jc: though not user´s point of regard, which is like focus
this is more of a progress indicator
cs: this is indicated visually all the time
jn: we call them trains
cs: or breadcrumbs
jc: e.g., steps 1 - 5, which of those are you on
jg: what will user do with this?
query for ¨what is current¨?
AT announces to you at some point?
cs: suggest a specialized interaction
jg: how will user know?
cs: by reading documentation
ls: if aria-label isn´t working well, maybe we need to fix support for that rather than mint something new
don´t make new semantics when there are existing semantics not supported well
that´s a difficult path
is this part of the breadcrumbs role?
rs: it´s like it
cs: more general
ls: you´re still missing context
being told what is current, there is still visually available information you´re not getting
rs: it´s not @@
jc: this is different from breadcrumbs, an overly used term
this is more of a status of where you´re at in a process
though has more general uses
al: in one use case, a link to a page indicates it´s current
in another, @@
if aria-current goes on one element, how will users reference it?
can there be a controls-like relationship to indicate what element is related?
cs: <talked over>
jc: one that changes over time?
al: there can be steps that are visible but non-active ones displayed differently
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to indicate wre and to indicate we're not deciding UI, that would be determined by AT vendors. We're just defining the API. It could be that this would be
jc: sounds like progress bar
al: when user navigates to page, how can they figure out the current part from the rest?
right now have to hide the content
will current help?
jc: back to user expectation - this is new, so there aren´t current expectations
need AAPI to communicate it, and allow AT to solve the UI issue
jg: sure, but we need to understand what happens when current not present
right now I hear ¨AT users have to learn another command¨
cs: there´s no way to do it at all now
jg: can be put in the title, users are used to that
cs: if I´m anywhere in page, hard to get back to the current step
jc: there could be a user command, or AT could just announce, or some new interaction pattern
right now, only get if crammed into label
cs: or both
passive and active retrieval
rs: more than step in process
e.g., nav
on a page, there could be multiple current items, within their respective contexts
<jamesn> +1 to allowing multiple
if an element has aria-context, how is it defined what is the scope of context within which it is current?
<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask if this should be used in the context of a landmark
jd: for AT, we need it easy for AT to find
if it´s a state, state change events help
if it´s limited to landmarks, limit to a kind of landmark so AT know where to look
so I lean towards a state with some extras to help out ATs
rs: so for nav, would want to know current item from nav?
jd: from anywhere
there´s a ¨where am I?¨ command - AT needs to know how to answer that question
<jcraig> joanie: wants notifications when this state changes
rs: so a relationship on container to element?
<andrewlarkin> +q
jd: need a way to connect, and way to announce
al: relationship between what is currently active, and @@
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say this is an API implementation detail, not to be defined in ARIA until the APIs support it
jc: maybe every element that is current should have a controls relationship to indicate scope
re easier for AT to detect, that´s for the AAPI implementation to sort
e.g., could support a notification event
but shouldn´t be encumbent on authors
<joanie> +1 to jcraig's statement. I just want to know. I don't think it has to come from authors. :)
cs: needs to be in the core mapping guide
jc: yes, after AAPIs have a hook for it
we have chicken / egg here, want to define in ARIA to push AAPIs, but not so useful until they support
cs: we can put this egg out there
can probably get in, and will get feedback
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to suggest a property on a container pointing to ID of current descendant could define both scope and current item
jg: will anything current have to have accessible name?
<joanie> I agree with jgunder in that we need to define what it applies to
<confusion over tabpanel>
cs: case in point, don´t want to confuse authors
rs: e.g., nav list with toggle buttons
if it´s a state, browsers have to do notification
mc: maybe a property on a container pointing to ID of current descendant could define both scope and current item
jc: if we did that, would have to be sure to get the relationship direction right
container references descendant, or current element references container
need to think through the use cases to help decide which of those to do
e.g., for a link, body could point to current link
but if you´re on a train, wanting to know what current step is, container reference is preferred
rs: having it on the current element itself allows attribute selector to style
<jcraig> rs: attribute selector [aria-current] { } would be nice to use.
<jcraig> mc: aria-currentfor="IDREF"
rs: would using aria-controls overload it?
mc: think so
using on the current object referencing container for which it´s in scope allows styling, and provides boolean-like ¨I´m current¨
jc: AAPI could calculate inverse relationship
cs: would like to be able to use the DOM hierarchy
let UA calculate for and by
jc: would aria-currentfor=¨¨ work?
cs: I guess
think it´s better for UA to calculate because authors can mess that up
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that'd be vague
jc: could be ambiguous
aria-current=true would tell browser is it´s current for
but ambiguous what it´s current for, could be whole page, or some lower container, list, etc.
could support currentfor (IDREF) plus currrent (boolean)
don´t think a non-referencing attribute would be clear enough
cs: would like to try
we would define a set of roles that are presumed container of a current descendant
jc: so need a ¨current computation algorithm¨
rs: makes me nervous
cs: asking authors to do too much makes me nervous
rs: miscalulation could lead to big problems
jc: not sure authors would understand an implicit relation to ancestors
cs: maybe; we could draft it both was and test via authors
jc: let´s think through these ideas
mc: think current and currentfor together confusing
prefer currentfor=¨¨ if we want calculated relationship
rs: do we agree to do something?
cs: not sure the syntax is right, but agree need something
rs: think about it this week, we´ll pick up next week
cs: also annotations
<richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgen, make minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/are you for in it?/are you looking for in it?/ Succeeded: s/June 29/May 29/ Succeeded: s/backport right/backport, right?/ Succeeded: s/this is important for apps/this is important for single-page web apps, or anything using frameworks like backbone where all links link to the same page but load specific content that represent a single "page"/ Found Scribe: MichaelC Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC Default Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, janina, +1.603.882.aaaa, joanie, Michael_Cooper, Jon_Gunderson, +49.322.110.8.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger janina +1.603.882.aaaa joanie Michael_Cooper Jon_Gunderson +49.322.110.8.aabb Cynthia_Shelly Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0045.html Found Date: 12 May 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-aria-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]