14:00:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
14:00:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webfonts-irc
14:00:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:00:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
14:00:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
14:00:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:12 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
14:00:12 <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2014
14:00:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #webfonts
14:00:34 <Vlad> zakim, this will be 3668
14:00:34 <Zakim> ok, Vlad; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:42 <Vlad> zakim, who is here?
14:00:42 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, Vlad
14:00:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, raph, kuettel, Vlad, trackbot
14:01:47 <Vlad> zakim, this is 3668!
14:01:48 <Zakim> sorry, Vlad, I do not see a conference named '3668!' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:01:53 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
14:01:53 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, ChrisL
14:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, raph, kuettel, Vlad, trackbot
14:01:59 <Vlad> zakim, this is 3668 !
14:01:59 <Zakim> sorry, Vlad, I do not see a conference named '3668 !' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:02:04 <Vlad> zakim, this is 3668
14:02:04 <Zakim> ok, Vlad; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM
14:02:06 <ChrisL> zakim, it really has
14:02:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'it really has', ChrisL
14:02:10 <Vlad> zakim, who is here?
14:02:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.921.aaaa, Vlad, +1.510.717.aabb, ChrisL
14:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, raph, kuettel, Vlad, trackbot
14:02:47 <ChrisL> chair: vlad
14:02:59 <ChrisL> zakim, where is 510?
14:02:59 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.510 is California
14:03:16 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is raph
14:03:16 <Zakim> +raph; got it
14:03:30 <raph> zakim, aaaa is kuettel
14:03:30 <Zakim> sorry, raph, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:03:38 <raph> zakim, aabb is raph
14:03:39 <Zakim> +raph; got it
14:04:14 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
14:05:53 <ChrisL> Vlad: we spent a lot of time to make state of the art font compression and to prove it
14:06:09 <ChrisL> ... serving millions of fonts to billions of users, big savings
14:06:24 <ChrisL> ... moderately complex code with a lot of benefits
14:06:59 <ChrisL> Vlad: can have two function calls, one for woff2 and one for generic brotli
14:07:48 <ChrisL> kuettel: jkew's point is a good one, more tools could support woff2
14:08:09 <ChrisL> ... whether that is enough to make it optional is a separate discussion but see his point
14:08:55 <ChrisL> ... trade off between fewer tools and better overall compression. low impact on high volume sites, more for specialized cases
14:09:30 <ChrisL> Vlad: everything can be brotli compressed, but that is only part of woff2. similar to jpeg compression for images
14:10:12 <ChrisL> ... agree brotli has widespread use, but we want to benefit from the work we did for two years, it helps users
14:10:39 <ChrisL> kuettel: all good points
14:11:37 <ChrisL> Vlad: complexity of preprocessing - can be implemented in any language. only time will tell on the uptake
14:11:55 <ChrisL> ... only one person writes a library, gets used by everyone
14:12:39 <ChrisL> Vlad: MonoType tools all written in Python and shared for serves, desktop etc
14:12:48 <ChrisL> s/serves/servers/
14:13:11 <ChrisL> Vlad: wish jkew was on the call
14:14:16 <ChrisL> ChrisL: jkew did say he was fine to move on if the group agrees
14:14:44 <ChrisL> kuettel: would like to see us make a decision
14:15:29 <ChrisL> raph: coming down to tradeoff between spec simplicity/few options/easy testability vs ease of simple tools
14:16:24 <ChrisL> ChrisL: the simple easy script could use woff1
14:17:20 <ChrisL> raph: implementing brotli from scratch in a scripting language would have poor performance, over time there will be callouts to native libraries as with gzip
14:17:27 <ChrisL> ... deployment time
14:18:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: main consideration is effect on users, don't want to see them download more data than was needed
14:18:54 <ChrisL> ... code written once, deployed many times and data downloaded billions of times
14:19:09 <ChrisL> raph: so point is that we don't want substandard tools deployed
14:19:19 <ChrisL> Vlad: priority of constituencies
14:20:22 <ChrisL> Vlad: on mobile with low cpu, also metered bandwidth so best to have small data
14:20:48 <ChrisL> Vlad: do we agree to make preprocessing step mandatory and eliminate options
14:20:51 <ChrisL> (agreement)
14:21:09 <ChrisL> resolved: no optional parts in woff preprocessing
14:22:01 <ChrisL> kuettel: good discussion, an informed decision
14:22:15 <kuettel> Actually that was Raph, but I agree :)
14:22:31 <kuettel> Known table tag proposal: https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/spreadsheets/d/111MT0l7LOVqotAnMXD4PMOm36jTPSznUigJPfxUYY_0/edit#gid=0
14:22:34 <ChrisL> s/kuettel:/raph:/
14:22:42 <ChrisL> topic: known table tags
14:22:54 <ChrisL> Vlad: thanks for the detailed analysis
14:23:44 <ChrisL> Vlad: tables in limbo for a long time or not frequently used need not be listed
14:24:15 <ChrisL> ... will not loose data or affect function, just a few more bytes
14:24:20 <ChrisL> raph: 4 more
14:25:34 <ChrisL> ChrisL: for new stuff (as opposed to old no longer used stuff) usage will increase over time
14:25:44 <ChrisL> Vlad: some tables fell out of favour
14:26:22 <ChrisL> ... if widely deployed, its in. if its niche use case, can still be used
14:26:50 <ChrisL> ... need a policy for this, explain the choice
14:27:15 <ChrisL> kuettel: caveat, limited corpus, mostly google fonts and foundry search integration. no cff fonts
14:27:42 <ChrisL> ... we could get more data
14:28:05 <ChrisL> raph: happy with list as it stands, behedad said its fine and not to agonize over it.
14:28:45 <ChrisL> ... we can leave light green tags in
14:29:00 <ChrisL> ... these are things we see in real fonts. low wastefulness
14:29:29 <ChrisL> ... cost of missing a tag is trivial, number of fonts with missed tags is tiny except for future standardization
14:30:04 <ChrisL> raph: need language for the rationale but suggest we accept this proposal
14:30:12 <ChrisL> Vlad: agree
14:30:35 <ChrisL> Vlad: we used 7 bits for tag code?
14:30:46 <ChrisL> raph: yes, up to 7 available
14:31:04 <ChrisL> Vlad: so 46 used out of 128
14:31:25 <ChrisL> Vlad: include everything we know troday, sill plenty room for later standardization
14:31:46 <ChrisL> s/troday/today
14:32:10 <ChrisL> Vlad: even if the number doubles we can still include everything
14:32:41 <ChrisL> kuettel: second tab has a lot more tables. fontlab has tons of them
14:33:20 <ChrisL> Vlad: john hudson said font dev tools use that extensibiity for source tables. occasionally these slip through. we don't want to include those ones
14:33:34 <ChrisL> ... should never be in a final font that is an actual product
14:34:20 <ChrisL> raph: spec has a guidance role. do not encourage people to ship fonts with that stuff
14:34:56 <ChrisL> Vlad: publised specifications is the cut
14:35:14 <ChrisL> ... opentype/off, aat, graphite
14:35:53 <ChrisL> Vlad: any tables in shipped fon, not the source ones
14:36:22 <ChrisL> kuettel: (true type accent table, scribe missed)
14:36:41 <ChrisL> raph: vtt tables not included
14:37:01 <ChrisL> ... but include aat ones as they are a public spec
14:37:14 <ChrisL> ... so its all in the first sheet plus the aat ones?
14:37:48 <ChrisL> kuettel: in the second tab the non standard ones are struck out
14:38:07 <ChrisL> ChrisL: we should aleways drop dsig in woff2
14:38:30 <ChrisL> kuettel: not seeing many of the older truetype tables
14:38:56 <ChrisL> ... then graphite, a mix, rows 66 to 70 are documented but others are not
14:39:16 <ChrisL> ... are we planning for any sil table?
14:39:35 <ChrisL> ... then EPAR; after that random ones
14:40:21 <ChrisL> Vlad: the crossed out ones should be disallowed. also EPAR proposal, not current
14:40:34 <ChrisL> ... no tools read it
14:40:49 <ChrisL> Vlad: if a font does use it it is still preserved
14:41:13 <ChrisL> kuettel: rows 45 to 64 are the older truetype tables
14:42:00 <ChrisL> raph: there are published aat fonts although low use, not in corpus, some still around though
14:42:34 <ChrisL> kuettel: row 76, SIL Silt is not in the spec
14:42:52 <ChrisL> ... not an expert on that
14:43:24 <ChrisL> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=typetuner
14:44:14 <ChrisL> raph: Silt is present in the fonts but is tool specific, not aimed at end consumer, so we should not include it. should be stripped
14:45:15 <ChrisL> Vlad: we need a few paragraphs to inform implementors that tool specific tables should be removed before woff2 encoding
14:45:29 <ChrisL> ... as we did for woff1
14:46:01 <ChrisL> ... separate para for DSIG to explain why its dropped, because woff2 processing invaliudates it
14:46:59 <ChrisL> ChrisL: this tablular data should go in the evaluation report
14:47:13 <ChrisL> kuettel: good to briefly talk about ordering
14:48:03 <ChrisL> start with the microsoft OT tables, 29-30, then list in order of specification date, apple tt tables next, math, graphite, then colorfonts
14:48:18 <ChrisL> Vlad: math and color are part of OFF v3
14:48:38 <ChrisL> ... preferto mention the ISO specs first
14:48:59 <ChrisL> kuettel: so move math table up
14:49:07 <ChrisL> Vlad: math and all the color ones
14:49:55 <ChrisL> ChrisL: what about sbix, should include but no spec
14:50:11 <ChrisL> Vlad: we can say its part of aat
14:50:36 <ChrisL> kuettel: so move math up to 35 then sbix down to other aat ones
14:50:47 <ChrisL> Vlad: makes sense
14:51:47 <ChrisL> kuettel: row 51 the arbitrary tag follows
14:51:55 <ChrisL> raph: needed for future expansion
14:52:02 <ChrisL> kuettel: reserved ones?
14:52:10 <ChrisL> Vlad: about hals is left
14:52:17 <ChrisL> s/hals/half/
14:52:25 <ChrisL> ... reserved for future use
14:53:10 <ChrisL> Vlad: 29..31 willbe taken by identified tags unless some reason to keep the literal 31 value
14:53:25 <ChrisL> raph: no its a legacy from 5 bits, arbitrary was last one
14:53:38 <ChrisL> Vlad: so the arbitrary is 127
14:54:42 <ChrisL> kuettel: can make a third tab with the fewer plus aat and reordering
14:56:03 <ChrisL> topic: fpwd and outreach
14:57:20 <ChrisL> Vlad: spoke with PLH who mentioned AC meeting in June, team busy getting ready for it, limited resources for fpwd and outreach before meeting, much more resouce from Comm team after the meeting
14:57:25 <ChrisL> ... so mid June
14:57:42 <ChrisL> ... one considerastion if we want to have a press release and so on
14:58:17 <ChrisL> raph: preference to do FPWD first and not block on publicity
14:58:28 <ChrisL> ... progress on solid spec is more important
14:59:02 <ChrisL> Vlad: agree, just wondering because FPWD of Woff1 had a lot of PR, lots of attention
14:59:18 <ChrisL> ... produced a lot of feedback
14:59:54 <ChrisL> kuettel: prefer to make available sooner, other ways to get more eyes on it. tweet about it etc
15:00:18 <ChrisL> ... there was a lot of controversy on webfonts before while now its accepted
15:00:30 <ChrisL> .. so we get technical review soon
15:00:51 <ChrisL> Vlad: twitter and blogs has a lot more weight than official PR
15:01:31 <ChrisL> ChrisL: also would prefer early publication
15:02:25 <ChrisL> Vlad: so, with the approved edits, all agreed for FPWD of Woff2
15:03:05 <ChrisL> (explanation of process)
15:04:48 <ChrisL> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of WOFF2
15:04:53 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
15:04:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webfonts-irc#T15-04-53
15:06:23 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
15:06:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.921.aaaa, Vlad, +1.510.717.aabb, ChrisL, raph
15:06:34 <Zakim> -raph.a
15:06:35 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:06:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
15:06:39 <Zakim> -ChrisL
15:06:43 <Zakim> -Vlad
15:11:40 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, raph, in IA_Fonts()10:00AM
15:11:42 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended
15:11:42 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.921.aaaa, Vlad, +1.510.717.aabb, ChrisL, raph
17:08:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webfonts