IRC log of webfonts on 2014-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #webfonts

14:00:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webfonts-irc

14:00:09 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:00:09 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #webfonts

14:00:11 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3668

14:00:11 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start now

14:00:12 [trackbot]

Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference

14:00:12 [trackbot]

Date: 16 April 2014

14:00:28 [ChrisL]

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14:00:34 [Vlad]

zakim, this will be 3668

14:00:34 [Zakim]

ok, Vlad; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start now

14:00:42 [Vlad]

zakim, who is here?

14:00:42 [Zakim]

IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, Vlad

14:00:43 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, raph, kuettel, Vlad, trackbot

14:01:47 [Vlad]

zakim, this is 3668!

14:01:48 [Zakim]

sorry, Vlad, I do not see a conference named '3668!' in progress or scheduled at this time

14:01:53 [ChrisL]

zakim, who is here?

14:01:53 [Zakim]

IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, ChrisL

14:01:55 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, raph, kuettel, Vlad, trackbot

14:01:59 [Vlad]

zakim, this is 3668 !

14:01:59 [Zakim]

sorry, Vlad, I do not see a conference named '3668 !' in progress or scheduled at this time

14:02:04 [Vlad]

zakim, this is 3668

14:02:04 [Zakim]

ok, Vlad; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM

14:02:06 [ChrisL]

zakim, it really has

14:02:06 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'it really has', ChrisL

14:02:10 [Vlad]

zakim, who is here?

14:02:10 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +1.408.921.aaaa, Vlad, +1.510.717.aabb, ChrisL

14:02:11 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, raph, kuettel, Vlad, trackbot

14:02:47 [ChrisL]

chair: vlad

14:02:59 [ChrisL]

zakim, where is 510?

14:02:59 [Zakim]

North American dialing code 1.510 is California

14:03:16 [ChrisL]

zakim, aaaa is raph

14:03:16 [Zakim]

+raph; got it

14:03:30 [raph]

zakim, aaaa is kuettel

14:03:30 [Zakim]

sorry, raph, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:03:38 [raph]

zakim, aabb is raph

14:03:39 [Zakim]

+raph; got it

14:04:14 [ChrisL]

scribenick: ChrisL

14:05:53 [ChrisL]

Vlad: we spent a lot of time to make state of the art font compression and to prove it

14:06:09 [ChrisL]

... serving millions of fonts to billions of users, big savings

14:06:24 [ChrisL]

... moderately complex code with a lot of benefits

14:06:59 [ChrisL]

Vlad: can have two function calls, one for woff2 and one for generic brotli

14:07:48 [ChrisL]

kuettel: jkew's point is a good one, more tools could support woff2

14:08:09 [ChrisL]

... whether that is enough to make it optional is a separate discussion but see his point

14:08:55 [ChrisL]

... trade off between fewer tools and better overall compression. low impact on high volume sites, more for specialized cases

14:09:30 [ChrisL]

Vlad: everything can be brotli compressed, but that is only part of woff2. similar to jpeg compression for images

14:10:12 [ChrisL]

... agree brotli has widespread use, but we want to benefit from the work we did for two years, it helps users

14:10:39 [ChrisL]

kuettel: all good points

14:11:37 [ChrisL]

Vlad: complexity of preprocessing - can be implemented in any language. only time will tell on the uptake

14:11:55 [ChrisL]

... only one person writes a library, gets used by everyone

14:12:39 [ChrisL]

Vlad: MonoType tools all written in Python and shared for serves, desktop etc

14:12:48 [ChrisL]

s/serves/servers/

14:13:11 [ChrisL]

Vlad: wish jkew was on the call

14:14:16 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: jkew did say he was fine to move on if the group agrees

14:14:44 [ChrisL]

kuettel: would like to see us make a decision

14:15:29 [ChrisL]

raph: coming down to tradeoff between spec simplicity/few options/easy testability vs ease of simple tools

14:16:24 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: the simple easy script could use woff1

14:17:20 [ChrisL]

raph: implementing brotli from scratch in a scripting language would have poor performance, over time there will be callouts to native libraries as with gzip

14:17:27 [ChrisL]

... deployment time

14:18:09 [ChrisL]

Vlad: main consideration is effect on users, don't want to see them download more data than was needed

14:18:54 [ChrisL]

... code written once, deployed many times and data downloaded billions of times

14:19:09 [ChrisL]

raph: so point is that we don't want substandard tools deployed

14:19:19 [ChrisL]

Vlad: priority of constituencies

14:20:22 [ChrisL]

Vlad: on mobile with low cpu, also metered bandwidth so best to have small data

14:20:48 [ChrisL]

Vlad: do we agree to make preprocessing step mandatory and eliminate options

14:20:51 [ChrisL]

(agreement)

14:21:09 [ChrisL]

resolved: no optional parts in woff preprocessing

14:22:01 [ChrisL]

kuettel: good discussion, an informed decision

14:22:15 [kuettel]

Actually that was Raph, but I agree :)

14:22:31 [kuettel]

Known table tag proposal: https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/spreadsheets/d/111MT0l7LOVqotAnMXD4PMOm36jTPSznUigJPfxUYY_0/edit#gid=0

14:22:34 [ChrisL]

s/kuettel:/raph:/

14:22:42 [ChrisL]

topic: known table tags

14:22:54 [ChrisL]

Vlad: thanks for the detailed analysis

14:23:44 [ChrisL]

Vlad: tables in limbo for a long time or not frequently used need not be listed

14:24:15 [ChrisL]

... will not loose data or affect function, just a few more bytes

14:24:20 [ChrisL]

raph: 4 more

14:25:34 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: for new stuff (as opposed to old no longer used stuff) usage will increase over time

14:25:44 [ChrisL]

Vlad: some tables fell out of favour

14:26:22 [ChrisL]

... if widely deployed, its in. if its niche use case, can still be used

14:26:50 [ChrisL]

... need a policy for this, explain the choice

14:27:15 [ChrisL]

kuettel: caveat, limited corpus, mostly google fonts and foundry search integration. no cff fonts

14:27:42 [ChrisL]

... we could get more data

14:28:05 [ChrisL]

raph: happy with list as it stands, behedad said its fine and not to agonize over it.

14:28:45 [ChrisL]

... we can leave light green tags in

14:29:00 [ChrisL]

... these are things we see in real fonts. low wastefulness

14:29:29 [ChrisL]

... cost of missing a tag is trivial, number of fonts with missed tags is tiny except for future standardization

14:30:04 [ChrisL]

raph: need language for the rationale but suggest we accept this proposal

14:30:12 [ChrisL]

Vlad: agree

14:30:35 [ChrisL]

Vlad: we used 7 bits for tag code?

14:30:46 [ChrisL]

raph: yes, up to 7 available

14:31:04 [ChrisL]

Vlad: so 46 used out of 128

14:31:25 [ChrisL]

Vlad: include everything we know troday, sill plenty room for later standardization

14:31:46 [ChrisL]

s/troday/today

14:32:10 [ChrisL]

Vlad: even if the number doubles we can still include everything

14:32:41 [ChrisL]

kuettel: second tab has a lot more tables. fontlab has tons of them

14:33:20 [ChrisL]

Vlad: john hudson said font dev tools use that extensibiity for source tables. occasionally these slip through. we don't want to include those ones

14:33:34 [ChrisL]

... should never be in a final font that is an actual product

14:34:20 [ChrisL]

raph: spec has a guidance role. do not encourage people to ship fonts with that stuff

14:34:56 [ChrisL]

Vlad: publised specifications is the cut

14:35:14 [ChrisL]

... opentype/off, aat, graphite

14:35:53 [ChrisL]

Vlad: any tables in shipped fon, not the source ones

14:36:22 [ChrisL]

kuettel: (true type accent table, scribe missed)

14:36:41 [ChrisL]

raph: vtt tables not included

14:37:01 [ChrisL]

... but include aat ones as they are a public spec

14:37:14 [ChrisL]

... so its all in the first sheet plus the aat ones?

14:37:48 [ChrisL]

kuettel: in the second tab the non standard ones are struck out

14:38:07 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: we should aleways drop dsig in woff2

14:38:30 [ChrisL]

kuettel: not seeing many of the older truetype tables

14:38:56 [ChrisL]

... then graphite, a mix, rows 66 to 70 are documented but others are not

14:39:16 [ChrisL]

... are we planning for any sil table?

14:39:35 [ChrisL]

... then EPAR; after that random ones

14:40:21 [ChrisL]

Vlad: the crossed out ones should be disallowed. also EPAR proposal, not current

14:40:34 [ChrisL]

... no tools read it

14:40:49 [ChrisL]

Vlad: if a font does use it it is still preserved

14:41:13 [ChrisL]

kuettel: rows 45 to 64 are the older truetype tables

14:42:00 [ChrisL]

raph: there are published aat fonts although low use, not in corpus, some still around though

14:42:34 [ChrisL]

kuettel: row 76, SIL Silt is not in the spec

14:42:52 [ChrisL]

... not an expert on that

14:43:24 [ChrisL]

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=typetuner

14:44:14 [ChrisL]

raph: Silt is present in the fonts but is tool specific, not aimed at end consumer, so we should not include it. should be stripped

14:45:15 [ChrisL]

Vlad: we need a few paragraphs to inform implementors that tool specific tables should be removed before woff2 encoding

14:45:29 [ChrisL]

... as we did for woff1

14:46:01 [ChrisL]

... separate para for DSIG to explain why its dropped, because woff2 processing invaliudates it

14:46:59 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: this tablular data should go in the evaluation report

14:47:13 [ChrisL]

kuettel: good to briefly talk about ordering

14:48:03 [ChrisL]

start with the microsoft OT tables, 29-30, then list in order of specification date, apple tt tables next, math, graphite, then colorfonts

14:48:18 [ChrisL]

Vlad: math and color are part of OFF v3

14:48:38 [ChrisL]

... preferto mention the ISO specs first

14:48:59 [ChrisL]

kuettel: so move math table up

14:49:07 [ChrisL]

Vlad: math and all the color ones

14:49:55 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: what about sbix, should include but no spec

14:50:11 [ChrisL]

Vlad: we can say its part of aat

14:50:36 [ChrisL]

kuettel: so move math up to 35 then sbix down to other aat ones

14:50:47 [ChrisL]

Vlad: makes sense

14:51:47 [ChrisL]

kuettel: row 51 the arbitrary tag follows

14:51:55 [ChrisL]

raph: needed for future expansion

14:52:02 [ChrisL]

kuettel: reserved ones?

14:52:10 [ChrisL]

Vlad: about hals is left

14:52:17 [ChrisL]

s/hals/half/

14:52:25 [ChrisL]

... reserved for future use

14:53:10 [ChrisL]

Vlad: 29..31 willbe taken by identified tags unless some reason to keep the literal 31 value

14:53:25 [ChrisL]

raph: no its a legacy from 5 bits, arbitrary was last one

14:53:38 [ChrisL]

Vlad: so the arbitrary is 127

14:54:42 [ChrisL]

kuettel: can make a third tab with the fewer plus aat and reordering

14:56:03 [ChrisL]

topic: fpwd and outreach

14:57:20 [ChrisL]

Vlad: spoke with PLH who mentioned AC meeting in June, team busy getting ready for it, limited resources for fpwd and outreach before meeting, much more resouce from Comm team after the meeting

14:57:25 [ChrisL]

... so mid June

14:57:42 [ChrisL]

... one considerastion if we want to have a press release and so on

14:58:17 [ChrisL]

raph: preference to do FPWD first and not block on publicity

14:58:28 [ChrisL]

... progress on solid spec is more important

14:59:02 [ChrisL]

Vlad: agree, just wondering because FPWD of Woff1 had a lot of PR, lots of attention

14:59:18 [ChrisL]

... produced a lot of feedback

14:59:54 [ChrisL]

kuettel: prefer to make available sooner, other ways to get more eyes on it. tweet about it etc

15:00:18 [ChrisL]

... there was a lot of controversy on webfonts before while now its accepted

15:00:30 [ChrisL]

.. so we get technical review soon

15:00:51 [ChrisL]

Vlad: twitter and blogs has a lot more weight than official PR

15:01:31 [ChrisL]

ChrisL: also would prefer early publication

15:02:25 [ChrisL]

Vlad: so, with the approved edits, all agreed for FPWD of Woff2

15:03:05 [ChrisL]

(explanation of process)

15:04:48 [ChrisL]

RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of WOFF2

15:04:53 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

15:04:53 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webfonts-irc#T15-04-53

15:06:23 [ChrisL]

zakim, list attendees

15:06:23 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.921.aaaa, Vlad, +1.510.717.aabb, ChrisL, raph

15:06:34 [Zakim]

-raph.a

15:06:35 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:06:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL

15:06:39 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

15:06:43 [Zakim]

-Vlad

15:11:40 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, raph, in IA_Fonts()10:00AM

15:11:42 [Zakim]

IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended

15:11:42 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.408.921.aaaa, Vlad, +1.510.717.aabb, ChrisL, raph

17:08:24 [Zakim]

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