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16:43:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/12-css-irc
16:43:57 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:54:52 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:54:59 <Zakim> +dael
16:55:24 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
16:56:36 <glazou> Regrets+=zcorpan, florian, mihai, jerenkranz
16:57:08 <Zakim> +??P43
16:57:11 <leif> leif has joined #css
16:57:15 <dwim_home> glazou:  I'm here for the first time :)
16:57:16 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P43 is me
16:57:17 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:57:23 <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth has joined #css
16:57:26 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:57:27 <liam_> liam_ has joined #css
16:57:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:57:35 <glazou> dwim_home, hello Dongwoo !!!
16:58:03 <dwim_home> it's 2 am here in Korea
16:58:09 <glazou> dwim_home, 2am for you right ?
16:58:10 <glazou> yep
16:58:11 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:58:12 <glazou> urghhh
16:58:13 <dwim_home> glazou:  good to see you :)
16:58:28 <Zakim> +SylvaIng
16:58:37 <glazou> dwim_home, can you join the call?
16:58:47 <Zakim> +??P54
16:58:55 <glazou> Zakim, ??P54 is me
16:58:55 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:59:18 <Zakim> +krit
16:59:52 <tantek> glazou - can we push charter discussion later in the call (not first) ? can't join for a bit.
17:00:00 <dwim_home> glazou:  I'm joining the call using the number for boston now.
17:00:02 <Zakim> +??P5
17:00:14 <abinader> Zakim, ??P5 is me
17:00:14 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
17:00:17 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:00:26 <tantek> also if there's time, for the end of the agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0140.html
17:00:38 <tantek> thanks for your consideration (on both items)
17:00:40 <tantek> bbiab
17:00:47 <Zakim> +??P38
17:00:52 <glazou> noted tantek but the agenda is already pretty full...
17:00:55 <Zakim> +glenn
17:00:57 <leif> Zakim, I am ??P38
17:00:57 <Zakim> +leif; got it
17:01:05 <Zakim> +rhauck
17:01:22 <Zakim> +Stearns
17:01:28 <Zakim> +plinss
17:01:51 <Zakim> +Bert
17:01:59 <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
17:02:18 <glazou> Regrets+=antonp
17:02:23 <glazou> sgalineau, ROFL
17:02:27 <leif> sgalineau: LOL
17:02:34 <glazou> with or without a napoleon hat ?-)
17:02:50 <Zakim> +BrianKardell
17:03:04 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
17:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, SimonSapin, dauwhe, [IPcaller], SylvaIng, glazou, krit, abinader, [Microsoft], leif, glenn, rhauck, Stearns, plinss, Bert, [Bloomberg], BrianKardell
17:03:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see tantek, liam_, leif, dwim, dauwhe, dael, MaRakow, rhauck1, antonp, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, jet, dbaron, glenn, sgalineau, plh, abinader, arronei, slightlyoff_,
17:03:10 <Zakim> ... lmclister, dfreedm, krijn, achicu, jacobg, cbiesinger, shepazu, ed, paul___irish
17:03:39 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
17:03:54 <Zakim> +Plh
17:03:56 <plh> oops
17:03:59 <plh> zakim, drop plh
17:03:59 <Zakim> Plh is being disconnected
17:04:00 <Zakim> -Plh
17:04:05 <Zakim> +Plh
17:04:06 <Zakim> +[Bloomberg.a]
17:04:18 <c_palmer> Zakim, [Bloomberg.a] is me
17:04:18 <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
17:04:44 <dael> glazou: Let's start
17:04:53 <dael> glazou: As usual, any extra items?
17:05:07 <dael> ...: It's pretty full, but if you have something we can retain for next week that's fine
17:05:13 <dael> ...: We have an item from tantek
17:05:21 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
17:05:24 <dael> ???: Is it worth doing a poll on the call?
17:05:29 <Andrey> Andrey has joined #css
17:05:31 <SimonSapin> s/???/tantek/
17:05:34 <dael> glazou: You mean selectors?  I suggest we do that
17:05:41 <tantek> (hopefully quick, had one positive response from TabAtkins, no objections)
17:05:47 <tantek> SimonSapin, haha I'm not on the call (yet)
17:05:48 <dael> ...: I think the poll is invalid because it was changed.
17:05:58 <dael> TabAtkins: As I said we know who saw it before the change.
17:06:02 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
17:06:08 <SimonSapin> oh, s/tantek:/???:/ then
17:06:10 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:06:11 <dael> glazou: We're just adding items now, and I responded on the list.
17:06:21 <dael> glazou: So first extra item is the poll.  Any others?
17:06:25 <dael> Topic: Charter
17:06:36 <Zakim> +??P16
17:06:43 <dael> glazou: Can we have an update on charter extension.  Before you said ready b4 F2F
17:06:54 <dael> plh: I think we're on tracka nd don't expect any surprised
17:06:58 <dael> glazou: Any questions?
17:07:04 <dael> Topic: New Regions WD
17:07:15 <SimonSapin> (TabAtkins, present it as two polls with separate results)
17:07:22 <dael> astearns: Just a new WD.  It's been 8 months since last and there's been sub. changes so I'd like to publish
17:07:34 <dael> RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of Regions
17:07:42 <dael> plh: Is this the split we discussed?
17:07:46 <dael> astearns: Yes.
17:07:48 <dael> plh: Okay
17:07:51 <SimonSapin> s/plh/Bert/
17:07:53 <dael> glazou: So you approve?
17:07:56 <dael> bert: I do
17:08:11 <Zakim> +MaRakow
17:08:23 <dael> glazou: Given that it's a hot topic, let's instert Grid now
17:08:29 <dael> Topic: Grid Issues
17:08:38 <astearns> s/grid/selector poll/
17:09:03 <dael> glazou: So TabAtkins publish a poll about selectors.  In short it's a Q, do you prefer !, descriptio or :has
17:09:34 <dael> ...: The problem is originally it was ! or has but after 130 resolnces he changed the wording
17:09:45 <dael> ...: lots of people rejected !
17:10:04 <dael> ...: I think the new question is different and I don't think that we can infur anything because of that.
17:10:22 <dael> ...: SimonSapin suggested a new poll ith three options, ! :has, or ???
17:10:32 <dael> ...: So I think I reject the results of the poll
17:10:48 <dael> SimonSapin: I agree results are useless but I think Tab should seperate results of exit poll
17:11:08 <dael> TabAtkins: I can do first 130 os ! vs Has and the rest as cercumspect vs has
17:11:15 <dael> glazou: I don't think you can do that
17:11:24 <dael> TabAtkins: I think we have an ovwhelming result
17:11:31 <dael> glazou: This just isn't the same question
17:11:44 <dael> TabAtkins: We've had 800 results and most of them picked the same answer as before
17:11:58 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:11:58 <dbaron> so if you polled two separate questions at different times, just report the results separately?
17:12:06 <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
17:12:07 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:12:11 <dael> glazou: Taking my co-chair hat off, as a standards body we aim at doing things right and this isn't done right.  We don't change the question in the middle of a vote
17:12:14 <SimonSapin> sgalineau +1
17:12:23 <dael> ...: Even if it's only 10% that disagree with what you say is final results.
17:12:29 <SimonSapin> dbaron, this is effectively what happened
17:12:40 <dael> TabAtkins: We're randomly sampling in the first place, so it just doesn't matter if they're two seperate polls
17:12:51 <dael> ???: Since I'm on neither side of the discussion
17:13:07 <dael> ...: I think when they put the poll together what they wanted to gage wasn't if ! is confusing
17:13:13 <astearns> +1 to Tab's position. The results are useful considered separately. And they both point to the same result
17:13:16 <dael> ...: But they wanted an indicator like a combinator
17:13:27 <dael> ...: Overwhelming people picked the combinator
17:13:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:13:40 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, please give numbers for the separate results on IRC
17:13:51 <dael> ...: We mixed two questions and I think TabAtkins was trying to act in good faith to see if we were asking the right question
17:14:05 <glenn> who is ???
17:14:07 <glazou> s/???/briankardell
17:14:12 <dael> ...: TabAtkins was saying we can derive people want a combinator and we can do another poll
17:14:32 <dael> glazou: Reading the results, i think people were influenced by the ! and they were rejecting the !
17:14:45 <dael> TabAtkins: And that's why the poll was changed to see if that was an issue.
17:14:50 <glenn> s/briankardell/bkardell/
17:15:03 <dael> bkardell: Do we have a reason for not doing what TabAtkins Is suggesting?
17:15:12 <Zakim> -abinader
17:15:14 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:15:19 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:15:28 <dael> ???: Is this just avoiding work so we can prove what TabAtkins is saying or have another statement?
17:15:30 <lmcliste_> lmcliste_ has joined #css
17:15:40 <dael> bkardell: I think we can frame that with having just three options and that'll work
17:15:40 <Zakim> +??P5
17:15:48 <abinader> Zakim, ??P5 is me
17:15:48 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
17:15:53 <dael> glazou: I think it's painful that we can't discuss what a member did without him leaving.
17:16:09 <dael> ...: I'm going to stop now, but I'm disputing the results which we're going to specify
17:16:15 <TabAtkins> I'm still here, I just can't stand listening to people pretend that a poll is "biased" because they don't understand population statistics.
17:16:16 <dael> ...: This is impossible to discuss.
17:16:31 <dael> glazou: We don't have an update on Shadow DOM
17:16:46 <dael> glazou: I think saying I don't understand population stats is an insult.
17:16:56 <dael> ???: I don' thtink that was the point, though.
17:17:02 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
17:17:03 <glazou> s/???/plh
17:17:05 <dael> glazou: I'm saying the sampling isn't valid due to the change.
17:17:10 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:17:37 <dael> bkardell: I think there was an issue and we tried to resolve it.  We can look at the issue and try and resolve the difference, but I think that we're running in circle and not making progress
17:17:37 <glazou> Tab ?
17:17:46 <TabAtkins> Tell me when you're done, plese.
17:17:46 <dael> glazou: TabAtkins for Shadow DOM?
17:17:53 <astearns> s/bkardell/sgalineau/
17:18:07 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
17:18:18 <dael> Topic: Shadow DOM
17:18:24 <dael> TabAtkins: Let me pull the info
17:18:34 <dael> ...: First I'd like to see if we can finalize a named combinator
17:18:44 <dael> ...: I'm assuming that /ident is a decent syntax
17:18:53 <dael> ...: It looks good to me and people in the thread.
17:19:14 <dael> fantasai: I don't think that /ident is good because that's usually punctuation
17:19:43 <dael> ...: It's usually just a character so I think a syntax in that pattern isn't a good idea.  We have :ident #ident etc and they're all a compound selector
17:20:03 <dael> ...: If we're going to have that it should have punct. at the begining and end and follow the white space rules of combinators
17:20:30 <TabAtkins> `foo`
17:20:32 <dael> dbaron: I think a few people liked the idea of brackets.
17:20:37 <TabAtkins>  /foo/
17:20:38 <fantasai> /ident/
17:20:44 <dael> fantasai: We can just use that (above)
17:20:47 <fantasai>  /ref somethingorother/
17:20:54 <SimonSapin> is '/ ident' the same as '/ident' ?
17:20:57 <fantasai> no
17:20:57 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with that.  I like single slach, but 2 is okay as well.
17:21:01 <astearns> I'm OK with either as well
17:21:04 <fantasai> well, I guess we could define it either way :)
17:21:18 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No, it's not - ". ident" isnt' the same as ".ident"
17:21:26 <SimonSapin> ok
17:21:30 <dael> bkardell: I realize we don't have single style comments in CSS, but I worry that using something close to C++ is confusing to authors.
17:21:32 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Whitespace is significant in selectors.
17:21:46 <dael> fantasai: It's a single slash followed by another slash, though.
17:21:48 <astearns> was that s/bkardell/hober/ ?
17:21:55 <sgalineau> so fantasai would rather have something like /foo/
17:21:57 <sgalineau> ?
17:22:00 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm done with that.  If the WG qould like to resolve that's fine.
17:22:12 <bkardell> bkardell
17:22:14 <TabAtkins> s/done/down/
17:22:17 <dael> fantasai: I'm still wondering if it should be combinator instead of pseudoclass, but I haven't read entire thread.
17:22:31 <bkardell> backticks comment was me
17:22:36 <dael> TabAtkins: Any other syntax suggestions?
17:22:56 <dael> TabAtkins: backticks, slashes or...?
17:23:01 <bkardell> I am good with `foo` or /foo/
17:23:08 <TabAtkins> s/.../pseudo-elements/
17:23:15 <dael> ???: This isn't strictly combinator syntax.
17:23:20 <astearns> s/???/hober/
17:23:39 <dael> hober: I'm just wondering do we want to allow for future CSS to allow author-defined custom items
17:23:50 <dael> TabAtkins: Possibly which makes the ident nice.
17:24:11 <dael> hober: I'm not sure quite what exlusion there was but I'd rather avoid collisions between the WG and arbitary def.
17:24:18 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:24:30 <dael> TabAtkins: The way the F2F discussion was - are technically allowed in HTML, the main space is ident-
17:24:35 <dael> ...: In CSS we use _ the same.
17:24:45 <dael> ...: So if your media query has _ it's custom
17:24:52 <dael> hober: I'm fine with that for now.
17:25:05 <dael> TabAtkins: This is a little ugly, but works.  We'll avoid collisions.
17:25:26 <dael> TabAtkins: Since there's no additional syntax ideas, feel free to butt in.
17:25:35 <dael> ...: Are we okay with / on both ends?
17:25:43 <dael> TabAtkins: I'd like to resolve on that.
17:25:55 <dael> bkardell: If we want a combinator in the future we bring it back
17:26:07 <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure if this is right, but if we're going this way this is good.
17:26:08 <TabAtkins>  /ref(foo)/ or /ref foo/ or whatever
17:26:17 <dbaron> Also, I'm minuted above as saying something at a point when I wasn't on the call.
17:26:20 <fantasai> s/this/using a combinator rather than pseudo-class/
17:26:29 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:26:30 <glenn> +1 to what hober said
17:26:31 <Zakim> -??P16
17:26:31 <dael> bkardell: I'd like to authorize TabAtkins to do what he needs, but I'm not sure I want to say this is the right thing to do.
17:26:31 <fantasai> s/this way/with a combinator/
17:26:38 <fantasai> s/this is good/this syntax is good/
17:26:41 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
17:26:42 <glenn> s/bkardell/hober/
17:26:43 <dael> ...: Would a watered down resolution to allow you to spec be okay?
17:26:56 <dael> TabAtkins: I speced it.  I want to know if the WG is okay
17:27:04 <dael> fantasai: Is this in selectors or shadow DOM?
17:27:12 <dael> TabAtkins: Putting it in sleectors
17:27:28 <dael> fantasai: I'd pref Shadow DOM and let sleectors stabalize before shifting things into it.
17:27:46 <dael> dbaron: Is that b/c you're not settled on named combinators?
17:27:53 <astearns> s/dbaron/bkardell/
17:27:55 <TabAtkins> s/dbaron/dauwhe/
17:27:59 <astearns> heh
17:28:29 <glenn> +1 to what fantasai is saying
17:28:29 <dael> fantasai: I'm not objecting per se but I'm not sure if this is the right idea.  Selectors is almost implemented and this isn't qualified.  I'd rather leave it in shadow DOM so that it can be discussed more.
17:28:46 <dael> ...: I don't want to mix this unstable thing with selectors where we're trying to take unstable things out.
17:28:59 <dael> TabAtkins: As long as no one is actively obj to syntax it can stay
17:29:26 <dael> TabAtkins: In other words it sounds like we can move on
17:29:26 <glenn> s/it can stay/it is good enough for me for now/
17:29:31 <dael> glazou: Excellent
17:29:39 <dael> Topic: Counter Styles API
17:29:55 <dael> TabAtkins: Xidorn brought up interesting CSSOM questions
17:30:24 <dael> ...: If you don't spec a descriptor in the style sheet, what rule should appear?  Null, empty string, or initial value?
17:30:36 <dael> ???: Any impl consistancy?
17:30:45 <glenn> s/???/glenn/
17:30:49 <dael> TabAtkins: None I've seen.  Thoughtbase (?) has it implemented
17:31:04 <Zakim> -abinader
17:31:15 <dael> dbaron: In many ways this is similar to properties, but there's not difference between original and unset
17:31:29 <Zakim> +??P5
17:31:29 <dbaron> s/original/initial value/
17:31:31 <dael> ...: My feeling is leave it the same as there's not semeantic difference
17:31:36 <TabAtkins> s/Thoughtbase/@font-face/
17:31:37 <abinader> Zakim, ??P5 is me
17:31:37 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
17:31:38 <dbaron> ... as the empty string
17:31:46 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
17:31:46 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
17:31:53 <dael> fantasai: Interesting question is if you're doing the OM, do you want to rest, or preserve what the editor put in?
17:32:09 <dael> ...: If there's no semantic difference it seems like things that are initial should stay set that way.
17:32:23 <jrossi2> jrossi2 has joined #css
17:32:23 <dael> TabAtkins: Sep but related question.  You need to spec how these things serealize.
17:32:35 <dael> ...: If you omit everything you would omit anything set to inital value too
17:33:02 <dael> TabAtkins: I think I like having it reflect initial value and on the serialization side specify you omit the scriptor is it's they're inital value
17:33:07 <dael> ...: How does that sound?
17:33:19 <dael> dbaron: On q is what do they do for @font-face
17:33:36 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure.  If we want to move on and come back to me I can test for 5 min and come back with data
17:33:58 <dael> TabAtkins: So let's do that.  I'm come back in a few to tell you what font-face does in chrome and firefox
17:34:02 <dael> glazou: So we can move on?
17:34:09 <dael> Topic: Concept of Baselines
17:34:19 <dael> dbaron: I don't think this needs telecon time
17:34:26 <dael> glazou: Okay, good.
17:34:34 <dael> Topic: ::first-letter
17:34:44 <dael> dbaron: We had a long debate about what goes in ::first-letter.
17:35:00 <dael> ...: spec if specfic when punc. extends first letter, but not what a first letter is.
17:35:19 <dael> ...: First letter apllies to first letter and also applies to digits, but doesn't mention anything else.
17:35:43 <dael> ...: I think Echo is the only one that does letter or digits and we occ. get bugs were people expect it to apply to symbols
17:35:48 <dael> ...: I remember + and $.
17:35:59 <dael> ...: It would be nice if spec said what the first letter applied to
17:36:26 <dael> ...: There's one other quirk with this where we reference character classes we need to say what version of unicode we're referencing
17:36:31 <astearns> s/Echo/Gecko/
17:36:56 <dael> dbaron: Do people think symbols should be a first letter?  Is that a bug in other impl?
17:37:03 <Zakim> +??P14
17:37:15 <tantek> Zakim, ??P14 is tantek
17:37:15 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:37:19 <dael> fantasai: I think it's fine.  The interesting q is do we just include symbol, or symbol and next thing
17:37:25 <dael> ??: I would expect on ly the symbol.
17:37:31 <dael> bert: That's not what I would expect
17:37:31 <astearns> s/??/astearns/
17:37:40 <tantek> ooh are we debating syntax live on the call? nice. ;)
17:37:41 <dael> ???: Is this based on unicode catagories?
17:37:47 <dael> TabAtkins: That would be nice.
17:37:58 <SimonSapin> s/???/SimonSapin/
17:38:04 <TabAtkins> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
17:38:04 <dael> ??? So we would blacklist a bunch of catagories it doesn't apply to?
17:38:11 <dbaron> s/???/hober:/
17:38:13 <dael> TabAtkins: That may work, things like white space
17:38:19 <dbaron> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
17:38:56 <dael> fantasai: There's some general classes in unicode, like high level ones.
17:39:08 <dael> ...: I think we're only interested in doing high level ones
17:39:18 <fantasai> s/general/two levels of general/
17:39:30 <fantasai> s/like high/higher and lower/
17:39:38 <dael> astearns: Suppose unicode decided to add a new top level class.  I'd rather have that included.  I don't anticipate them adding white space.
17:39:44 <tantek> spacy, is that like falsy?
17:39:49 <dael> TabAtkins: I think if they add a new class, we want the old rules to apply.
17:39:54 <tantek> spacy characters?
17:40:03 <astearns> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
17:40:12 <astearns> and s/astearns/hober/ (I think)
17:40:14 <dael> dbaron: Unless someone else wants to, I guess I should write a proposal?
17:40:37 <dael> hober: I think we're all agreeing
17:40:44 <dael> dbaron: Sounds like we're done.
17:40:47 <Rossen_> s/hober/Rossen_/
17:40:47 <dbaron> s/hober/Rossen/
17:40:57 <dael> TabAtkins: can we jump back?
17:41:14 <dael> ...: In both chrome and firefox, font-face is the empty string.
17:41:23 <dael> ...: I'll find a place to spec that.
17:41:29 <dael> dbaron: Sounds good to me.
17:41:33 <dael> TabAtkins: Cool.
17:41:42 <dbaron> s/to me/to me, given that it's what we do for properties/
17:41:46 <TabAtkins> s/font-face/unspecified descriptors in @font-face/
17:42:13 <dael> TabAtkins: Can we get a resolutions?
17:42:16 <dael> glazou: Comments?
17:42:38 <dael> TabAtkins: For any unspec descriptors in @ rules that font-face and counter style, they're in the OM as the empty string
17:42:45 <dael> hober: And this is what they do?
17:42:52 <dael> TabAtkins: In chrome and fireforx.
17:42:58 <astearns> s/hober/rossen/
17:43:04 <TabAtkins> <!DOCTYPE html>
17:43:04 <TabAtkins> <style>
17:43:04 <TabAtkins> @font-face {
17:43:04 <TabAtkins>   font-family: foo;
17:43:04 <TabAtkins>   src: url(foo);
17:43:04 <TabAtkins> }
17:43:04 <TabAtkins> </style>
17:43:04 <dael> rossen: Can you post that test?
17:43:21 <dael> TabAtkins: I did that and poked around for font weights.
17:43:43 <dael> glazou: To be sure, it's qhen you query the explicit value of a descriptor?
17:43:47 <dael> TabAtkins: That's a good question.
17:43:56 <dael> glazou: I don't want to see it effecting a group.
17:44:05 <dael> TabAtkins: CSSOM defines that and impl differ.
17:44:20 <dael> ...: Right now in chrome you see every prop that could apply to any element show up.
17:44:28 <dael> ...: That's likely because we're using the same impl.
17:44:34 <dael> glazou: Then I have no obj.
17:44:51 <dael> rossen: Just a second, I'm getting on my comp to test it.
17:45:51 <dael> TabAtkins: Do you want us to wait, or should we move on and you can report back.
17:46:00 <dael> Rossen_: It'll take me two minutes.
17:46:07 <dael> glazou: We'll come back when Rossen_ is ready
17:46:12 <dael> TopicL Grid Issues
17:46:29 <dael> SimonSapin: Biggest issue is how we define size of grid item and grid container
17:46:38 <dael> ...: Did I miss that in the spec, or is it not written?
17:46:52 <Zakim> -abinader
17:46:55 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not ready to handle the issues.  We're working on it and will answer as we get there.
17:47:08 <dael> ...: We haven't made it there quite yet.  fantasai and I are working together.
17:47:27 <dael> ...: As soon as I can I'll do it, but if you want to message me privatly with a time line, that's okay
17:47:35 <dael> SimonSapin: We don't need more time for any grid issues.
17:47:52 <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0356.html
17:47:56 <dael> Topic: inline box, atomic inline-level box, and transformable elements
17:48:11 <dael> glazou: I saw some ML answers on this
17:48:34 <dael> TabAtkins: I think he has asking about the earlier descion that inline-elements being able to be transformed
17:48:57 <dael> ...: and dbaron had a seperate question that was tangentally related about the spec only applying to elements related to CSS.
17:49:05 <dael> ...: But that's different than the orignal
17:49:25 <dael> dbaron: My q was that the spec isn't saying what we want it to and we should check that before we nit-pick.
17:49:34 <dael> ...: so we said it shouldn't aplly to transofrms
17:49:37 <dael> many: yes
17:49:55 <dael> ??: I think we want to say we can transform a box, not a collection of elements.
17:50:09 <dael> TabAtkins: We only transform fragments that are the sole fragment created by a box.
17:50:21 <dael> ...: they're the sole fragment by decision not happenstance.
17:50:30 <dael> dbaron: Didn't we dicuss this at the F2F?
17:50:47 <dael> ??: We did, but we didn't agree.  The agreement was it shouldn't apply.
17:50:50 <dbaron> s/dicuss this/have a long discussion about how transforms apply to fragmented blocks/
17:50:58 <dael> dbaron: Seems bad it stops applying as soon as you print.
17:51:03 <dael> ??: That's a good question.
17:51:21 <dael> dbaron: I'm okay with not applying ti inline, but I'm not okay that it stops as soon as it fragments.
17:51:39 <dael> TabAtkins: Starting with the base question, is the test wrong b/c spec says it shouldn't apply to inline.
17:51:57 <dael> ...: IN other words, the test is wrong.  It currently assumes that fragments apply to inline.
17:52:21 <dael> TabAtkins: Cool.  So Gerard is right.  We can take this later to decide what the definition os transformable elements should be.
17:52:29 <dael> s/os/of
17:52:31 <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
17:52:41 <dael> TabAtkins: So it sounds like that finishes the issue.
17:52:47 <dael> glazou: Okay.
17:52:56 <dael> glazou: tantek you still there?
17:52:58 <glazou> tantek, PING :-)
17:52:59 <dbaron> seems like the spec ought to exclude non-replaced inlines rather than imply that any new formatting primitives (flexbox, grid, etc.) aren't transformable
17:53:11 <fantasai> +!
17:53:20 <dael> Topic: Line box edge
17:53:29 <dael> tantek: I made a proposal to change that based on impl.
17:53:34 <fantasai> ?
17:53:41 <fantasai> tantek, link?
17:53:44 <dael> ...: I got one positive reply, but I wanted to run it by the group before I edited.
17:54:02 <dael> ??: It sounded good to me.
17:54:05 <tantek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0140.html
17:54:10 <dael> glazou: Can you post the link?
17:54:42 <fantasai> +1 from me
17:54:56 <dael> tantek: Thanks fantasai
17:55:00 <dael> glazou: Other optinions?
17:55:11 <dael> fantasai: I think you want to run it by Robert Callahan
17:55:25 <dael> tantek: I already pinged him.  I want to hear from other impl.
17:55:35 <dbaron> s/Callahan/O'Callahan/
17:55:42 <dael> ...: We (firefox) want to match webkit and want to make sure other impl find it acceptable
17:56:00 <dael> rossen: It will mean a change for us, but I agree auto behaviour makes more sense
17:56:08 <Bert> +1 from me, too
17:56:11 <dael> glazou: Anyone from webkit?
17:56:24 <dael> ???: webkit will change when microsoft changes.
17:56:40 <krit> s/???: webkit will change when microsoft changes.//
17:56:50 <dael> tantek: There's wo changes, one webkit already does, one that's a logical consiquence of the change.
17:57:07 <dael> tantek: I don't think anyone does the second behaviour yet, but it makes sense.
17:57:16 <dael> Rossen_: I think that's fine.  We can revisit later.
17:57:25 <dael> glazou: No objections?  You've got it tantek
17:57:31 <dael> glazou: We've got more time.  Anything else?
17:57:36 <dael> tantek: Did you do charteR?
17:57:47 <dael> glazou: Yes.  It'll be under review shortly
17:57:56 <dael> tantek: I think the super-group discussion needs to continue.
17:58:13 <dael> glazou: Yes, from time to time it's extremely beurocratic.
17:58:30 <dael> ...: It lacks a bit, but I don't think all exisiting super-groups will be in the same catagory.
17:58:45 <dael> ...: They'll be quite different and I'm not sure the current prose will work for everything.
17:58:59 <dael> tantek: I think glazou is having a positive impact and you should keep going.
17:59:08 <dael> glazou: We needed something different.  This isn't working.
17:59:12 <dael> glazou: Anything else?
17:59:16 <Zakim> -hober
17:59:17 <Zakim> -SylvaIng
17:59:17 <Zakim> -krit
17:59:18 <dael> glazou: Thank you and talk to you next week.
17:59:18 <Zakim> -Plh
17:59:18 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:59:18 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:59:20 <Zakim> -BrianKardell
17:59:20 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:59:21 <Zakim> -glazou
17:59:21 <Zakim> -c_palmer
17:59:21 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:59:21 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:59:22 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:59:23 <Zakim> -Bert
17:59:24 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:59:26 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:59:26 <Zakim> -tantek
17:59:30 <Zakim> -dael
17:59:31 <Zakim> -plinss
17:59:37 <Zakim> -leif
17:59:38 <Zakim> -rhauck
18:02:01 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
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18:05:13 <Zakim> -glenn
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18:10:13 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:10:16 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:10:16 <Zakim> Attendees were dael, SimonSapin, dauwhe, [IPcaller], SylvaIng, glazou, krit, abinader, glenn, leif, rhauck, Stearns, plinss, Bert, [Bloomberg], BrianKardell, Plh, c_palmer,
18:10:17 <Zakim> ... TabAtkins, dbaron, MaRakow, hober, fantasai, Rossen_, tantek
18:11:12 <dbaron> are the results of TabAtkins's poll visible somewhere?
18:11:39 <TabAtkins> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmRB4Bq4bNRBdHdCcDJJZWxEaEhLU20yOGo1ZVBvT2c&usp=sharing
18:11:48 <TabAtkins> I'm writing up an email with the results now.
18:11:58 <TabAtkins> It's so lopsided I dont' think I need to continue the poll.
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18:13:39 <dbaron> TabAtkins, was there any other summary of the results that led to people's reactions?
18:14:08 <TabAtkins> I hadn't given a summary yet, no.  Just what was in the thread.
18:19:04 <astearns> I was surprised by the poll change, but it seemed entirely reasonable
18:19:19 <astearns> another day of "! means not!" responses wouldn't have been as useful
18:19:28 <TabAtkins> Yeah, we'd gotten a lot of comments int he initial results like that.
18:19:29 <dbaron> agreed
18:20:27 <dbaron> I think having 10 minutes of the call being the chair complaining (with "chair hat off", maybe?) about Tab's predicted future actions was not a good use of telecon time.
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18:20:54 <astearns> agreed
18:21:03 <dbaron> that's why I hung up
18:21:11 <TabAtkins> Me too.
18:23:14 <dbaron> (above, on IRC, I was just trying to figure out if there was something I'd missed that led to that)
18:24:28 <astearns> I don't think so
18:25:41 <TabAtkins> Hah, though someone in the comments points out that ^ has negation implications too (from regex character classes) ^_^
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18:26:12 <SimonSapin> Naming is hard, but giving arbitrary meaning to ASCII characters is harder :)
18:26:26 <TabAtkins> Yup.
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20:04:34 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what’s the preferred way to track Selectors issues?
20:06:38 <SimonSapin> or fantasai?
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20:15:04 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Mailling list, or in spec.
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20:39:47 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I'm going to spend the rest of this week porting Bikeshed to Python3.  Any immediate pitfalls you know of?
20:43:25 <SimonSapin> Are you dropping 2 ?
20:44:03 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: ^
20:44:18 <TabAtkins> Planning to, but I'm doing the work in a branch first so I can play with it.
20:44:35 <TabAtkins> I've informed Peter about it, so I'll keep Bikeshed's p2 support until he's done, at least.
20:44:55 <SimonSapin> Another option is to write code that runs on both
20:45:03 <SimonSapin> same code base
20:45:34 <SimonSapin> http://python3porting.com/toc.html is a good guide
20:45:39 <SimonSapin> either way
20:45:53 <TabAtkins> The main reason I'm doing it is to simplify unicode handling, because I *still* run into encoding errors.
20:46:08 <TabAtkins> So maintaining a compatible codebase seems unlikely.
20:46:30 <SimonSapin> ok
20:46:37 <SimonSapin> then you can start with 2to3
20:46:46 <SimonSapin> a tool that does automatic conversion, to some extent
20:46:47 <TabAtkins> Yeah, playing with that now.
20:47:21 <SimonSapin> and generally, know if any piece of data is supposed to be bytes or unicode
20:47:40 <SimonSapin> and try to only deal with bytes when doing I/O
20:48:08 <TabAtkins> It's not that I don't know, it's that Python2's insistence on the u prefix for all real strings is apparently impossible for me to enforce on myself.
20:49:01 <SimonSapin> ah
20:49:19 <SimonSapin> from __future__ import unicode_literals on 2.x may help
20:49:37 <TabAtkins> ...why am I not already using that?
20:49:43 <SimonSapin> it makes u the default
20:49:47 <SimonSapin> b'foo' if you want bytes
20:49:54 <TabAtkins> Yeah, that would be *awesome*.
20:50:02 <TabAtkins> All right, fuck all this shit forever, let's try just doing that.
20:50:07 <SimonSapin> try with that before porting
20:50:48 <SimonSapin> # coding: utf8
20:50:50 <SimonSapin> from __future__ import division, unicode_literals
20:50:54 <SimonSapin> all my files start basically like this
20:51:50 <SimonSapin> you may want 'from __future__ import absolute_import' too, but I find it less essential
20:53:09 <SimonSapin> http://docs.python.org/2/library/__future__.html
20:54:38 <TabAtkins> All right, so all input from file reading is bytes until I explicitly decode, right?
20:57:12 <SimonSapin> eh, depends
20:57:33 <SimonSapin> if you want bytes, use open(name, 'rb')
20:58:21 <SimonSapin> you can also get unicode-mode files: import io; io.open(name, encoding='utf-8')
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20:58:59 <TabAtkins> Sorry, didn't actually mean "bytes" there, just "Python 2 normal strings".
20:59:10 <TabAtkins> But I didn't know about unicode-mode files!
20:59:12 <SimonSapin> define normal? :)
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21:00:01 <SimonSapin> On 2.x, the default string type 'str' contains bytes, 'unicode' is code points
21:00:09 <TabAtkins> Yeah.
21:00:48 <SimonSapin> on 3.x, 'str' is code points and there is a new 'bytes' type that’s an immutable array of 8bit integers
21:00:59 <SimonSapin> on 2.x, 'bytes' is an alias for 'str'
21:01:15 <SimonSapin> yeah, it’s a mess
21:02:52 <TabAtkins> Okay, that is waht I was saying, then.
21:02:57 <TabAtkins> unicode_literals doesn't change the behavior of open(), right?  You still get a str object when you do a read()?
21:03:05 <SimonSapin> it doesn’t
21:03:18 <TabAtkins> k, switching to io.open as well, then.
21:04:04 <SimonSapin> open() on 3.x is io.open
21:04:09 <TabAtkins> Yeah.
21:04:30 <SimonSapin> on 2.x, open() without 'b' in the mode converts various newlines to '\n'
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