19:59:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:59:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-irc
19:59:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:59:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:59:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:59:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:59:59 <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2014
20:01:13 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
20:01:20 <Zakim> +joanie
20:01:22 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
20:01:45 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:45 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
20:02:15 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:02:15 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:02:31 <clown> agenda: this
20:02:37 <clown> agenda+ Finalize discussion of meeting time.
20:02:42 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1383: (All) Add role none to ARIA spec.
20:02:51 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of  aria-posinset/aria-setsize.
20:03:01 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal.
20:03:09 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy.
20:03:18 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container.
20:03:24 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role.
20:03:32 <clown> agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
20:03:38 <clown> agenda+ be done
20:11:10 <clown> zakim, who's here?
20:11:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see joanie, Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:11:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, clown, joanie, davidb, trackbot
20:11:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:12:20 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:12:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:13:17 <joanie> Zakim, agenda?
20:13:17 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
20:13:18 <Zakim> 1. Finalize discussion of meeting time. [from clown]
20:13:18 <Zakim> 2. ACTION-1383: (All) Add role none to ARIA spec. [from clown]
20:13:18 <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of  aria-posinset/aria-setsize. [from clown]
20:13:18 <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal. [from clown]
20:13:20 <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy. [from clown]
20:13:20 <Zakim> 6. ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container. [from clown]
20:13:20 <Zakim> 7. ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]
20:13:20 <Zakim> 8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23 [from clown]
20:13:23 <Zakim> 9. be done [from clown]
20:13:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:16:29 <clown> zakim, save agenda
20:16:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:16:35 <Zakim> ok, clown, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-agenda.rdf
20:16:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:19:23 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:19:53 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
20:20:16 <clown> scribenick:  joanie
20:20:37 <clown> zakim, take up 6
20:20:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up 6', clown
20:20:48 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
20:20:48 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container." taken up [from clown]
20:21:00 <clown> issue-618?
20:21:00 <trackbot> issue-618 -- MSAA selection event mapping for single selection case when item becomes unselected -- open
20:21:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/618
20:21:22 <joanie> CS: Is halfway through the test case and hopes to have it done today.
20:21:40 <joanie> CS: All of her action items are to make a test case and see what IE does.
20:22:18 <joanie> Zakim, take up 1
20:22:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up 1', joanie
20:22:22 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:22:22 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Finalize discussion of meeting time." taken up [from clown]
20:22:43 <joanie> JS: Nothing is likely to change w.r.t. the meeting time
20:23:09 <joanie> JS: Either continue meeting at 3:00-4:00 or 3:15-4:15 PM Eastern Time
20:23:24 <joanie> CS: Thinks she can do 3:15.
20:24:11 <joanie> JS: Let's make it at 3:15-4:15, but we'll check with David when he arrives.
20:24:22 <joanie> CS: Won't be here next week.
20:24:31 <joanie> JS: Will be here.
20:25:54 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
20:25:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1383: (All) Add role none to ARIA spec." taken up [from clown]
20:26:06 <clown> action-1383?
20:26:06 <trackbot> action-1383 -- James Craig to Add role none to spec -- due 2014-02-17 -- OPEN
20:26:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1383
20:26:17 <joanie> JS: Just a heads up for those who were not at Monday's meeting.
20:26:24 <joanie> JS: Create discussion.
20:26:33 <joanie> JS: James Craig has an action to add it to the spec.
20:26:54 <joanie> JS: My understanding is it will duplicate what is in role=presentation
20:27:17 <clown> <img alt="" ...>
20:28:00 <clown> <img role="presentation" ...>
20:28:26 <clown> <img role="presentation"  alt="some text here" …>
20:28:36 <clown> the last one is an author error.
20:29:10 <joanie> JS: Explains the above examples
20:29:26 <joanie> JS: Explained that the first two examples are equivalent. This is in ARIA 1.0
20:29:34 <clown> <img role="none" aria-label="some text here">
20:29:46 <joanie> JS: Heard at monday's meeting that they are considering doing the above.
20:29:58 <cyns> that seems wrong...
20:30:52 <joanie> JD: Recalled from Monday that there may be the possibility of <img role="text" alt="foo">
20:31:32 <joanie> JS: conclusion is role="none" is going forward.
20:31:53 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:31:53 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Finalize discussion of meeting time." taken up [from clown]
20:32:00 <joanie> Zakim, item 3
20:32:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'item 3', joanie
20:32:04 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
20:32:04 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of  aria-posinset/aria-setsize." taken up [from clown]
20:32:14 <clown> issue-441?
20:32:14 <trackbot> issue-441 -- Normative UAIG requirements for what UAs do when aria-posinset or aria-setsize is provided explicitly on some, but not all, elements within a set. -- open
20:32:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/441
20:32:32 <joanie> JS + CS: Cynthia is working on it
20:32:47 <joanie> JS: Are you doing a list box?
20:32:55 <joanie> CS: Yes.
20:33:07 <joanie> CS: is modifying test case 672.
20:33:30 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=672
20:34:00 <joanie> JS: This is for selection; not setsize
20:34:34 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
20:34:34 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal." taken up [from clown]
20:34:55 <joanie> JS: Cynthia has this in progress.
20:35:04 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
20:35:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy." taken up [from clown]
20:35:17 <clown> issue-612?
20:35:17 <trackbot> issue-612 -- Review ia2/atk rule in group position. should this really determine level based on aria-owns chain. see uaig: http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_position and test case 69: https://www.w3.org/wai/pf/testharness/testresults?tes -- open
20:35:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/612
20:35:20 <joanie> JS: That one is his.
20:36:15 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/test?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69&platform_id=4
20:37:10 <joanie> JS: Explains what they did was a bunch of sibling div elements
20:37:14 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69
20:37:18 <clown> test report ^
20:37:20 <joanie> JS: But they used aria-owns to create a tree
20:37:50 <joanie> JS: There is a mozilla bug on it.
20:37:50 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499917
20:38:46 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
20:38:48 <davidb> Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter
20:38:48 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
20:39:49 <joanie> JS: Rewinds for David
20:40:03 <joanie> JS: Meeting will be from 3:15-4:15
20:40:16 <joanie> DB: Agrees this is fine, but he may need to leave early
20:40:44 <joanie> JS: The meeting time will be from 3:00 - 4:15
20:40:58 <joanie> JS: Hopefully David will be able to arrive at 3:00
20:41:12 <joanie> JS: Cynthia hopefully will be able to arrive at 3:15
20:41:23 <joanie> JS: Mozilla stuff first then together stuff then IE stuff
20:41:45 <joanie> JS: Reviews the role="presentation" discussion.
20:42:08 <joanie> JS: If Mozilla has objections....
20:42:18 <joanie> DB: He doesn't. He's going to file the bug and find out.
20:42:43 <joanie> JS: Stefan wanted to use role="layout" for layout tables
20:43:03 <joanie> JS: ... but for images that are decorative
20:43:11 <joanie> JS: ... something like role="decorative"
20:43:29 <joanie> JS: Feel was we don't want a bunch of roles that do the same thing
20:43:42 <joanie> JS: For the record, he wanted it to be role="content"
20:44:00 <joanie> s/"content"/"contents"/
20:44:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:44:49 <clown> <table role="contents" …>
20:45:26 <joanie> DS: I don't think Web Devs would assume that is what it means
20:45:47 <joanie> JS: I wanted to focus on 'expose the contents'
20:46:12 <joanie> DS: I saw enough of the dialog and thinks we can go with role="none"
20:46:26 <joanie> JS: Already seen a tweet that means it will remove everything
20:46:31 <joanie> DS: There will be confusion
20:46:36 <joanie> JS: Then we aren't solving the problem
20:46:49 <joanie> DS: Is this something that is consensus from the Monday meeting?
20:47:14 <joanie> JS: Basically it's a let's write it up and see what it looks like
20:47:40 <clown> s/DS:/DB:/g
20:47:44 <joanie> s/DS/DB/g
20:47:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:47:49 <davidb> I just filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=971212 for role=none Moz debate.
20:48:19 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
20:48:19 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container." taken up [from clown]
20:48:27 <joanie> agenda?
20:48:35 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
20:48:35 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal." taken up [from clown]
20:48:42 <clown> issue-481?
20:48:43 <trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
20:48:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
20:48:48 <joanie> JS: David you weren't here last week
20:48:57 <clown> action-1369?
20:48:57 <trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN
20:48:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
20:49:00 <joanie> JS: Cynthia and I gave you an action
20:49:12 <joanie> DB: I acknowledge the issue
20:49:49 <joanie> JS: quoting from issue-481
20:50:16 <joanie> JS: He wants that 'should' changed to a 'must'
20:50:31 <joanie> JS: That's what I take it to mean
20:51:02 <joanie> JS: I leave it to you guys
20:51:20 <joanie> DB: Cynthia do you have an opinion on 1369 about the order of removal eventes
20:51:37 <joanie> CS: I understand why he thinks this. I don't know how hard it will be to do it.
20:51:53 <joanie> JS: That's why you two have issues
20:52:02 <joanie> CS: Is there anyone from Google?
20:52:09 <joanie> DB: Dominic Mazzoni
20:53:47 <joanie> DB: Going to stay one the phone, but everything is bogging down here
20:54:20 <joanie> zakim, take up item 5
20:54:20 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy." taken up [from clown]
20:54:24 <clown> issue-612?
20:54:24 <trackbot> issue-612 -- Review ia2/atk rule in group position. should this really determine level based on aria-owns chain. see uaig: http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_position and test case 69: https://www.w3.org/wai/pf/testharness/testresults?tes -- open
20:54:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/612
20:54:39 <joanie> JS: There's a mozilla bug on it too
20:54:42 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499917
20:55:00 <joanie> JS: Looks like Alex wants to keep it
20:55:17 <joanie> JS: Our issue in the test case is that there are div element siblings
20:55:26 <joanie> JS: but there is a hierarchy do to aria-owns
20:55:35 <joanie> JS: and the test case fails
20:55:36 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69
20:55:58 <joanie> JS: Who raised the issue?
20:56:06 <joanie> JS: It doesn't say who.
20:56:19 <joanie> JS: I think Rich and James together suggested getting rid of this
20:56:33 <joanie> JS: quoting text
20:56:37 <clown> "If aria-level is not provided or inherited for an element of role treeitem, user agents implementing IAccessible2 or ATK/AT-SPI MUST compute it by following the explicit or computed RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF relations"
20:56:45 <joanie> JS: end of quote
20:57:11 <joanie> JS: And we discussed this last october?
20:57:24 <joanie> JS: And Alex asked why to remove this requirement
20:57:28 <joanie> DB: Did we?
20:57:40 <joanie> JS: It should be up in today's w3c notes
20:57:46 <joanie> JS: Reading discussion
20:57:51 <davidb_> davidb_ has joined #aapi
20:57:57 <joanie> DB: I don't recall
20:58:11 <clown> alex first said:  "Can you outline why they decided to remove the requirement?"
20:58:18 <davidb_> back!
20:58:32 <clown> and later aske:  "so no strong reasons to drop it?"
20:58:41 <clown> s/aske:/asked:/
20:59:12 <joanie> JS: I get the impression that Alex sees no reason to get rid of this.
20:59:27 <joanie> JS: I think what I want you to do is restart the discussion with him
20:59:29 <joanie> DB: OK
20:59:37 <joanie> JS: Because it's both IA2 and ATK
20:59:56 <clown> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/default/ARIA-UAIG/1.0/tests/test-files/test69.html
21:00:00 <joanie> JS: Michael Cooper acknowledged it's a kinda crazy way to do a tree
21:00:21 <joanie> JS: ... but there's nothing in the spec that says it's illegal
21:00:38 <clown> s/kinda crazy/kinda odd/
21:01:27 <joanie> JS: David, can you see the markup?
21:01:40 <joanie> DB: They're all sibling divs
21:01:52 <joanie> JS: Goes on to explain the tree structure that results
21:01:59 <joanie> JS: And the test case....
21:02:13 <joanie> JS: ... says "The level of the last tree item is 2"
21:02:27 <joanie> JS: ... When you run the test the level is not 2
21:02:33 <joanie> JS: IE wasn't tested
21:02:37 <joanie> JS: Only Safari
21:02:49 <joanie> JS: James Craig wasn't certain what the result is
21:03:11 <joanie> JS: Rich tested it on windows firefox
21:03:20 <joanie> JS: ... and set it failed, but didn't say how it failed
21:03:27 <joanie> JS: Cynthia, can you run a test case?
21:03:45 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=69
21:03:58 <joanie> JS: Here's the full test case (above)?
21:04:24 <joanie> JS: Questions if that is the right test case.
21:04:28 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69
21:04:33 <joanie> CS: also questions it
21:04:44 <joanie> JS: quotes the test expected results
21:04:50 <joanie> CS: I'll find out
21:05:06 <joanie> JS: I don't know how you represent level in IE
21:05:59 <joanie> JS: I can't recall how it is in Firefox ATK
21:06:04 <joanie> JD: It's an object attribute
21:06:12 <joanie> (more discussion on the test case)
21:06:51 <joanie> CS: In IE I'm not seeing an explicit API property of level
21:06:58 <joanie> CS: But I am seeing it in the tree
21:07:10 <joanie> CS: It's doing what I expect (it == IE)
21:07:23 <joanie> JS: Adds a note to the issue
21:07:35 <joanie> CS: Is there a way to attach a screenshot to the issue
21:07:46 <joanie> JS: I think you have to send an email to the issue
21:08:20 <joanie> CS: I'm wrong, the tree does not own it.
21:08:30 <joanie> JS and CS: So it fails on IE.
21:09:02 <joanie> CS: It's challenging to look at some of these test cases in API tools.
21:09:23 <joanie> JS: David you have enough to go forward?
21:09:25 <joanie> DB: I do.
21:09:36 <clown> zakim, agenda?
21:09:36 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
21:09:37 <Zakim> 1. Finalize discussion of meeting time. [from clown]
21:09:37 <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of  aria-posinset/aria-setsize. [from clown]
21:09:37 <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal. [from clown]
21:09:37 <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy. [from clown]
21:09:39 <Zakim> 6. ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container. [from clown]
21:09:39 <Zakim> 7. ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]
21:09:39 <Zakim> 8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23 [from clown]
21:09:39 <Zakim> 9. be done [from clown]
21:10:18 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
21:10:28 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:11:20 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop log
21:11:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', joanie.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:12:16 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
21:15:25 <clown> present: joanie, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter
21:15:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown