IRC log of aapi on 2014-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:53 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #aapi

19:59:54 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-irc

19:59:55 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs member

19:59:56 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #aapi

19:59:57 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_PF

19:59:58 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute

19:59:58 [trackbot]

Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference

19:59:59 [trackbot]

Date: 11 February 2014

20:01:13 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started

20:01:20 [Zakim]

+joanie

20:01:22 [Zakim]

+[GVoice]

20:01:45 [clown]

zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer

20:01:45 [Zakim]

+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it

20:02:15 [clown]

zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer

20:02:15 [Zakim]

ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer

20:02:31 [clown]

agenda: this

20:02:37 [clown]

agenda+ Finalize discussion of meeting time.

20:02:42 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1383: (All) Add role none to ARIA spec.

20:02:51 [clown]

agenda+ ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize.

20:03:01 [clown]

agenda+ ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal.

20:03:09 [clown]

agenda+ ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy.

20:03:18 [clown]

agenda+ ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container.

20:03:24 [clown]

agenda+ ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role.

20:03:32 [clown]

agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All) Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23

20:03:38 [clown]

agenda+ be done

20:11:10 [clown]

zakim, who's here?

20:11:10 [Zakim]

On the phone I see joanie, Joseph_Scheuhammer

20:11:11 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, clown, joanie, davidb, trackbot

20:11:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:12:20 [clown]

chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer

20:12:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:13:17 [joanie]

Zakim, agenda?

20:13:17 [Zakim]

I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:

20:13:18 [Zakim]

1. Finalize discussion of meeting time. [from clown]

20:13:18 [Zakim]

2. ACTION-1383: (All) Add role none to ARIA spec. [from clown]

20:13:18 [Zakim]

3. ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize. [from clown]

20:13:18 [Zakim]

4. ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal. [from clown]

20:13:20 [Zakim]

5. ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy. [from clown]

20:13:20 [Zakim]

6. ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container. [from clown]

20:13:20 [Zakim]

7. ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]

20:13:20 [Zakim]

8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All) Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23 [from clown]

20:13:23 [Zakim]

9. be done [from clown]

20:13:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:16:29 [clown]

zakim, save agenda

20:16:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:16:35 [Zakim]

ok, clown, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-agenda.rdf

20:16:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:19:23 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

20:19:53 [cyns]

cyns has joined #aapi

20:20:16 [clown]

scribenick: joanie

20:20:37 [clown]

zakim, take up 6

20:20:37 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'take up 6', clown

20:20:48 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 6

20:20:48 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container." taken up [from clown]

20:21:00 [clown]

issue-618?

20:21:00 [trackbot]

issue-618 -- MSAA selection event mapping for single selection case when item becomes unselected -- open

20:21:00 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/618

20:21:22 [joanie]

CS: Is halfway through the test case and hopes to have it done today.

20:21:40 [joanie]

CS: All of her action items are to make a test case and see what IE does.

20:22:18 [joanie]

Zakim, take up 1

20:22:18 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'take up 1', joanie

20:22:22 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 1

20:22:22 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Finalize discussion of meeting time." taken up [from clown]

20:22:43 [joanie]

JS: Nothing is likely to change w.r.t. the meeting time

20:23:09 [joanie]

JS: Either continue meeting at 3:00-4:00 or 3:15-4:15 PM Eastern Time

20:23:24 [joanie]

CS: Thinks she can do 3:15.

20:24:11 [joanie]

JS: Let's make it at 3:15-4:15, but we'll check with David when he arrives.

20:24:22 [joanie]

CS: Won't be here next week.

20:24:31 [joanie]

JS: Will be here.

20:25:54 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 2

20:25:54 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "ACTION-1383: (All) Add role none to ARIA spec." taken up [from clown]

20:26:06 [clown]

action-1383?

20:26:06 [trackbot]

action-1383 -- James Craig to Add role none to spec -- due 2014-02-17 -- OPEN

20:26:06 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1383

20:26:17 [joanie]

JS: Just a heads up for those who were not at Monday's meeting.

20:26:24 [joanie]

JS: Create discussion.

20:26:33 [joanie]

JS: James Craig has an action to add it to the spec.

20:26:54 [joanie]

JS: My understanding is it will duplicate what is in role=presentation

20:27:17 [clown]

<img alt="" ...>

20:28:00 [clown]

<img role="presentation" ...>

20:28:26 [clown]

<img role="presentation" alt="some text here" …>

20:28:36 [clown]

the last one is an author error.

20:29:10 [joanie]

JS: Explains the above examples

20:29:26 [joanie]

JS: Explained that the first two examples are equivalent. This is in ARIA 1.0

20:29:34 [clown]

<img role="none" aria-label="some text here">

20:29:46 [joanie]

JS: Heard at monday's meeting that they are considering doing the above.

20:29:58 [cyns]

that seems wrong...

20:30:52 [joanie]

JD: Recalled from Monday that there may be the possibility of <img role="text" alt="foo">

20:31:32 [joanie]

JS: conclusion is role="none" is going forward.

20:31:53 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

20:31:53 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Finalize discussion of meeting time." taken up [from clown]

20:32:00 [joanie]

Zakim, item 3

20:32:00 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'item 3', joanie

20:32:04 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 3

20:32:04 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize." taken up [from clown]

20:32:14 [clown]

issue-441?

20:32:14 [trackbot]

issue-441 -- Normative UAIG requirements for what UAs do when aria-posinset or aria-setsize is provided explicitly on some, but not all, elements within a set. -- open

20:32:14 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/441

20:32:32 [joanie]

JS + CS: Cynthia is working on it

20:32:47 [joanie]

JS: Are you doing a list box?

20:32:55 [joanie]

CS: Yes.

20:33:07 [joanie]

CS: is modifying test case 672.

20:33:30 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=672

20:34:00 [joanie]

JS: This is for selection; not setsize

20:34:34 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 4

20:34:34 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal." taken up [from clown]

20:34:55 [joanie]

JS: Cynthia has this in progress.

20:35:04 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 5

20:35:04 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy." taken up [from clown]

20:35:17 [clown]

issue-612?

20:35:17 [trackbot]

issue-612 -- Review ia2/atk rule in group position. should this really determine level based on aria-owns chain. see uaig: http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_position and test case 69: https://www.w3.org/wai/pf/testharness/testresults?tes -- open

20:35:18 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/612

20:35:20 [joanie]

JS: That one is his.

20:36:15 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/test?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69&platform_id=4

20:37:10 [joanie]

JS: Explains what they did was a bunch of sibling div elements

20:37:14 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69

20:37:18 [clown]

test report ^

20:37:20 [joanie]

JS: But they used aria-owns to create a tree

20:37:50 [joanie]

JS: There is a mozilla bug on it.

20:37:50 [clown]

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499917

20:38:46 [Zakim]

+[Mozilla]

20:38:48 [davidb]

Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter

20:38:48 [Zakim]

+David_Bolter; got it

20:39:49 [joanie]

JS: Rewinds for David

20:40:03 [joanie]

JS: Meeting will be from 3:15-4:15

20:40:16 [joanie]

DB: Agrees this is fine, but he may need to leave early

20:40:44 [joanie]

JS: The meeting time will be from 3:00 - 4:15

20:40:58 [joanie]

JS: Hopefully David will be able to arrive at 3:00

20:41:12 [joanie]

JS: Cynthia hopefully will be able to arrive at 3:15

20:41:23 [joanie]

JS: Mozilla stuff first then together stuff then IE stuff

20:41:45 [joanie]

JS: Reviews the role="presentation" discussion.

20:42:08 [joanie]

JS: If Mozilla has objections....

20:42:18 [joanie]

DB: He doesn't. He's going to file the bug and find out.

20:42:43 [joanie]

JS: Stefan wanted to use role="layout" for layout tables

20:43:03 [joanie]

JS: ... but for images that are decorative

20:43:11 [joanie]

JS: ... something like role="decorative"

20:43:29 [joanie]

JS: Feel was we don't want a bunch of roles that do the same thing

20:43:42 [joanie]

JS: For the record, he wanted it to be role="content"

20:44:00 [joanie]

s/"content"/"contents"/

20:44:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:44:49 [clown]

<table role="contents" …>

20:45:26 [joanie]

DS: I don't think Web Devs would assume that is what it means

20:45:47 [joanie]

JS: I wanted to focus on 'expose the contents'

20:46:12 [joanie]

DS: I saw enough of the dialog and thinks we can go with role="none"

20:46:26 [joanie]

JS: Already seen a tweet that means it will remove everything

20:46:31 [joanie]

DS: There will be confusion

20:46:36 [joanie]

JS: Then we aren't solving the problem

20:46:49 [joanie]

DS: Is this something that is consensus from the Monday meeting?

20:47:14 [joanie]

JS: Basically it's a let's write it up and see what it looks like

20:47:40 [clown]

s/DS:/DB:/g

20:47:44 [joanie]

s/DS/DB/g

20:47:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown

20:47:49 [davidb]

I just filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=971212 for role=none Moz debate.

20:48:19 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 6

20:48:19 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container." taken up [from clown]

20:48:27 [joanie]

agenda?

20:48:35 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 4

20:48:35 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal." taken up [from clown]

20:48:42 [clown]

issue-481?

20:48:43 [trackbot]

issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open

20:48:43 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481

20:48:48 [joanie]

JS: David you weren't here last week

20:48:57 [clown]

action-1369?

20:48:57 [trackbot]

action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN

20:48:57 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369

20:49:00 [joanie]

JS: Cynthia and I gave you an action

20:49:12 [joanie]

DB: I acknowledge the issue

20:49:49 [joanie]

JS: quoting from issue-481

20:50:16 [joanie]

JS: He wants that 'should' changed to a 'must'

20:50:31 [joanie]

JS: That's what I take it to mean

20:51:02 [joanie]

JS: I leave it to you guys

20:51:20 [joanie]

DB: Cynthia do you have an opinion on 1369 about the order of removal eventes

20:51:37 [joanie]

CS: I understand why he thinks this. I don't know how hard it will be to do it.

20:51:53 [joanie]

JS: That's why you two have issues

20:52:02 [joanie]

CS: Is there anyone from Google?

20:52:09 [joanie]

DB: Dominic Mazzoni

20:53:47 [joanie]

DB: Going to stay one the phone, but everything is bogging down here

20:54:20 [joanie]

zakim, take up item 5

20:54:20 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy." taken up [from clown]

20:54:24 [clown]

issue-612?

20:54:24 [trackbot]

issue-612 -- Review ia2/atk rule in group position. should this really determine level based on aria-owns chain. see uaig: http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_position and test case 69: https://www.w3.org/wai/pf/testharness/testresults?tes -- open

20:54:25 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/612

20:54:39 [joanie]

JS: There's a mozilla bug on it too

20:54:42 [clown]

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499917

20:55:00 [joanie]

JS: Looks like Alex wants to keep it

20:55:17 [joanie]

JS: Our issue in the test case is that there are div element siblings

20:55:26 [joanie]

JS: but there is a hierarchy do to aria-owns

20:55:35 [joanie]

JS: and the test case fails

20:55:36 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69

20:55:58 [joanie]

JS: Who raised the issue?

20:56:06 [joanie]

JS: It doesn't say who.

20:56:19 [joanie]

JS: I think Rich and James together suggested getting rid of this

20:56:33 [joanie]

JS: quoting text

20:56:37 [clown]

"If aria-level is not provided or inherited for an element of role treeitem, user agents implementing IAccessible2 or ATK/AT-SPI MUST compute it by following the explicit or computed RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF relations"

20:56:45 [joanie]

JS: end of quote

20:57:11 [joanie]

JS: And we discussed this last october?

20:57:24 [joanie]

JS: And Alex asked why to remove this requirement

20:57:28 [joanie]

DB: Did we?

20:57:40 [joanie]

JS: It should be up in today's w3c notes

20:57:46 [joanie]

JS: Reading discussion

20:57:51 [davidb_]

davidb_ has joined #aapi

20:57:57 [joanie]

DB: I don't recall

20:58:11 [clown]

alex first said: "Can you outline why they decided to remove the requirement?"

20:58:18 [davidb_]

back!

20:58:32 [clown]

and later aske: "so no strong reasons to drop it?"

20:58:41 [clown]

s/aske:/asked:/

20:59:12 [joanie]

JS: I get the impression that Alex sees no reason to get rid of this.

20:59:27 [joanie]

JS: I think what I want you to do is restart the discussion with him

20:59:29 [joanie]

DB: OK

20:59:37 [joanie]

JS: Because it's both IA2 and ATK

20:59:56 [clown]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/default/ARIA-UAIG/1.0/tests/test-files/test69.html

21:00:00 [joanie]

JS: Michael Cooper acknowledged it's a kinda crazy way to do a tree

21:00:21 [joanie]

JS: ... but there's nothing in the spec that says it's illegal

21:00:38 [clown]

s/kinda crazy/kinda odd/

21:01:27 [joanie]

JS: David, can you see the markup?

21:01:40 [joanie]

DB: They're all sibling divs

21:01:52 [joanie]

JS: Goes on to explain the tree structure that results

21:01:59 [joanie]

JS: And the test case....

21:02:13 [joanie]

JS: ... says "The level of the last tree item is 2"

21:02:27 [joanie]

JS: ... When you run the test the level is not 2

21:02:33 [joanie]

JS: IE wasn't tested

21:02:37 [joanie]

JS: Only Safari

21:02:49 [joanie]

JS: James Craig wasn't certain what the result is

21:03:11 [joanie]

JS: Rich tested it on windows firefox

21:03:20 [joanie]

JS: ... and set it failed, but didn't say how it failed

21:03:27 [joanie]

JS: Cynthia, can you run a test case?

21:03:45 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=69

21:03:58 [joanie]

JS: Here's the full test case (above)?

21:04:24 [joanie]

JS: Questions if that is the right test case.

21:04:28 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=2&testcase_id=69

21:04:33 [joanie]

CS: also questions it

21:04:44 [joanie]

JS: quotes the test expected results

21:04:50 [joanie]

CS: I'll find out

21:05:06 [joanie]

JS: I don't know how you represent level in IE

21:05:59 [joanie]

JS: I can't recall how it is in Firefox ATK

21:06:04 [joanie]

JD: It's an object attribute

21:06:12 [joanie]

(more discussion on the test case)

21:06:51 [joanie]

CS: In IE I'm not seeing an explicit API property of level

21:06:58 [joanie]

CS: But I am seeing it in the tree

21:07:10 [joanie]

CS: It's doing what I expect (it == IE)

21:07:23 [joanie]

JS: Adds a note to the issue

21:07:35 [joanie]

CS: Is there a way to attach a screenshot to the issue

21:07:46 [joanie]

JS: I think you have to send an email to the issue

21:08:20 [joanie]

CS: I'm wrong, the tree does not own it.

21:08:30 [joanie]

JS and CS: So it fails on IE.

21:09:02 [joanie]

CS: It's challenging to look at some of these test cases in API tools.

21:09:23 [joanie]

JS: David you have enough to go forward?

21:09:25 [joanie]

DB: I do.

21:09:36 [clown]

zakim, agenda?

21:09:36 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:

21:09:37 [Zakim]

1. Finalize discussion of meeting time. [from clown]

21:09:37 [Zakim]

3. ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize. [from clown]

21:09:37 [Zakim]

4. ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal. [from clown]

21:09:37 [Zakim]

5. ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (Joseph) Add text back for implicit aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy. [from clown]

21:09:39 [Zakim]

6. ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container. [from clown]

21:09:39 [Zakim]

7. ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]

21:09:39 [Zakim]

8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All) Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23 [from clown]

21:09:39 [Zakim]

9. be done [from clown]

21:10:18 [Zakim]

-David_Bolter

21:10:28 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

21:11:20 [joanie]

RRSAgent, stop log

21:11:20 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', joanie. Try /msg RRSAgent help

21:12:16 [joanie]

RRSAgent, stop

21:15:25 [clown]

present: joanie, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter

21:15:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-aapi-minutes.html clown