Digital Publishing Interest Group

F2F Meeting, Shenzhen, 2nd day

Minutes of 12 November 2013

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F
Present:
Brady Duga, Dave Cramer, George Walkley, Gerardo Capiel, Ivan Herman, Koji Ishii, Markus Gylling, Vladimir Levantovsky, Thierry Michel, Sharad Garg, Frederick Hirsch, Jean Kaplansky, Tzviya Siegman
Guests
Robin Berjon (W3C), Jason White, Andrew Kirkpatrick (Adobe), Tobie Langel (W3C)
Scribe
Gerardo Capiel, Thierry Michel, Brady Duga, Sharad Garg, Dave Cramer
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

00:56:38 <Zakim> + +1.201.387.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.201.387.aaaa

00:57:21 <tzviya> zakim, aaaa is tzviya

Tzviya Siegman: zakim, aaaa is tzviya

00:57:21 <Zakim> +tzviya; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tzviya; got it

00:59:45 <ivan> hi tzviya, we will dial in shortly
00:59:51 <ivan> but people are just gathering..
00:59:57 <tzviya> ok, thanks
01:00:18 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan

01:00:18 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

01:00:20 <Zakim> +Songshan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan

01:04:46 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeanKaplansky

01:05:41 <mgylling_> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Markus Gylling: Zakim, who is on the phone?

01:05:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky

01:08:38 <gcapiel> scribe: gcapiel

(Scribe set to Gerardo Capiel)

01:09:10 <mgylling_> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F#Tuesday_12_Nov

Markus Gylling: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F#Tuesday_12_Nov


Markus Gylling: let's look at agenda

01:09:47 <gcapiel> � robin berjon is coming in to talk about html5

Robin Berjon is coming in to talk about HTML5

01:10:08 <gcapiel> � we also have toby coming in to talk about webdrive and the future of testing in ebooks

we also have Toby coming in to talk about webdrive and the future of testing in ebooks

01:10:17 <gcapiel> � other than that agenda is stable

other than that agenda is stable

01:10:35 <gcapiel> ivan: let's take 5 minutes

Ivan Herman: let's take 5 minutes

01:11:12 <gcapiel> � there's been a misunderstanding. community that predates our work by 1.5 years.  there's also a mailing.  people didn't know what to sign up for.  which has created problems

There's been a misunderstanding. community that predates our work by 1.5 years. there's also a mailing. people didn't know what to sign up for. which has created problems

01:11:49 <gcapiel> � we will merge subscribers and interest group people will be on both
    01:11:35 <gcapiel> � let's merge the two mailing lists by either discontinuing or redirecting one let's merge the two mailing lists by
      either discontinuing or redirecting one 
    
we will merge subscribers and interest group people will be on both 
01:11:55 <gcapiel> � and listened to by the tracker
and listened to by the tracker
01:12:01 <gcapiel> � plan to do it next week

plan to do it next week

01:12:11 <gcapiel> � email will go out on this

email will go out on this


public-digipub-ig@w3.org : only IG members can send mail, but anyone can access the archives.

[ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ]

01:14:13 <mgylling_> ... and public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org : completely public both for writing, reading and subscribing, will be discontinued in favor of public-digipub@w3.org

Markus Gylling: ... and public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org : completely public both for writing, reading and subscribing, will be discontinued in favor of public-digipub@w3.org

01:14:46 <gcapiel> ivan: -ig will be used for mailing agenda

Ivan Herman: IG will be used for mailing agenda

01:14:53 <gcapiel> mgylling: back to the agenda

Markus Gylling: back to the agenda

01:14:56 <ivan> Topic: Behavioral adaption

1. Behavioral adaption

01:15:16 <gcapiel> � @tzviya should we start with wiki?

  @Tzviya should we start with wiki?

01:15:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: sent out email about agenda

Tzviya Siegman: sent out email about agenda

01:15:51 <gcapiel> � a few ideas on wiki that are categorized.  let's talk about background ideas and then look at use cases

  a few ideas on wiki that are categorized. let's talk about background ideas and then look at use cases

01:16:07 <gcapiel> � a lot will tie back to prior discussions, but there is room for more discussion

  a lot will tie back to prior discussions, but there is room for more discussion

01:16:16 <tmichel> Comments from the public to the Interest Group are welcome on the public comment list public-digipub-ig-comment (public archive). should be discontinued and be redirect.

Thierry Michel: Comments from the public to the Interest Group are welcome on the public comment list public-digipub-ig-comment (public archive). should be discontinued and be redirect.

01:16:16 <tmichel> <tmichel> in favor of ...

Thierry Michel: <tmichel> in favor of ... public-digipub

01:16:17 <gcapiel> � the first issue is establishing vocab for finding markup

  the first issue is establishing vocab for finding markup

01:16:39 <gcapiel> � looking at use case of book semantics

  looking at use case of book semantics

01:16:54 <gcapiel> � publications use a lot of components, perhaps we want to standardize component names

  publications use a lot of components, perhaps we want to standardize component names

01:17:05 <gcapiel> � examples are different components of chapter title or sidebars with titles

  examples are different components of chapter title or sidebars with titles

01:17:13 <tmichel> the IG list is  .... All Interest Group participants are automatically subscribed to the group's main discussion list public-digipub-ig (public archive).

Thierry Michel: the IG list is public-digipub-ig (public archive). .... All Interest Group participants are automatically subscribed to the group's main discussion list

01:17:27 <gcapiel> � case study is another example from book publishing.  other parts of publishing have their own uses cases

  case study is another example from book publishing. other parts of publishing have their own uses cases

01:18:05 <gcapiel> � when we talk about dublin core metadata we have spec for when we use title versus subtitle.  in this case we're talking about chapter title

  when we talk about dublin core metadata we have spec for when we use title versus subtitle. in this case we're talking about chapter title

01:18:17 <gcapiel> � benefit will be improved display, usability and discoverability

  benefit will be improved display, usability and discover-ability

01:18:38 <gcapiel> � use case in front is w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructSem_UC

  use case in front is w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructSem_UC

01:19:20 <gcapiel> mgylling: let's see if we're talking about the same thing.  if we look at epub the formal name of titles that a book may have is in package.

Markus Gylling: let's see if we're talking about the same thing. if we look at epub the formal name of titles that a book may have is in package.

01:19:34 <gcapiel> � in the future the package file might be redundant and we can do it in just the html

  in the future the package file might be redundant and we can do it in just the html

01:19:44 <gcapiel> tzviya: this is getting more granular

Tzviya Siegman: this is getting more granular

01:20:07 <gcapiel> mgylling: we all know that rdfa exists and there are semantics at schema.org that enable some of this

Markus Gylling: we all know that rdfa exists and there are semantics at schema.org that enable some of this

01:20:23 <gcapiel> � we need to find weak points where we need to focus

  we need to find weak points where we need to focus

01:20:34 <gcapiel> � i.e. what's missing in the replacement for package metadata

  i.e. what's missing in the replacement for package metadata

01:20:38 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

01:20:50 <gcapiel> tzviya: i could argue with you whether it could be done in schema.org do this level of detail

Tzviya Siegman: i could argue with you whether it could be done in schema.org do this level of detail

Markus Gylling: vocabs are shallow right now, but it would be worked with them
01:21:09 <JeanK> q+

Jean Kaplansky: q+

01:21:17 <gcapiel> tzviya: this use is trying to show the detail

Tzviya Siegman: this use is trying to show the detail

01:21:30 <gcapiel> � more details need to be explored if this is to be done widely

  more details need to be explored if this is to be done widely

01:21:39 <gcapiel> � each publisher is doing it differently

  each publisher is doing it differently

01:21:51 <gcapiel> mgylling: that is the problem.  lack of predictability

Markus Gylling: that is the problem. lack of predictability

01:21:59 <gcapiel> � and lack of detail as you say

  and lack of detail as you say

01:22:25 <gcapiel> ivan: one thing that i would warn against is to use the class attribute for this kind of thing like you did here in the the example in the wiki

Ivan Herman: one thing that i would warn against is to use the class attribute for this kind of thing like you did here in the the example in the wiki

01:22:32 <gcapiel> � i would consider that an anti-pattern

  i would consider that an anti-pattern

01:23:10 <gcapiel> � when i have discussions with guha and why they don't want to use microformats.  they said usage of class attribute for vocabs created lots of problems with clashes with other uses

  when i have discussions with Guha and why they don't want to use microformats. they said usage of class attribute for vocabs created lots of problems with clashes with other uses

01:23:20 <gcapiel> � we should stay away from microformats

  we should stay away from microformats

01:23:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: i understand, but that is how is it commonly done

Tzviya Siegman: i understand, but that is how is it commonly done

01:24:03 <gcapiel> mgylling: on that topic if the problem we want to get through is the lack of detail and predictability we could go with rdfa

Markus Gylling: on that topic if the problem we want to get through is the lack of detail and predictability we could go with rdfa

01:24:36 <gcapiel> ivan: that is my other point.  with my semantic web hat, from a purist point of view if we talk about rdfa or microdata what we do is assign some properties to a subject, which is a URI

Ivan Herman: that is my other point. with my semantic web hat, from a purist point of view if we talk about rdfa or microdata what we do is assign some properties to a subject, which is a URI

01:24:57 <gcapiel> � what is the URI for that book instance?  or that book publication.  we don't have an answer

  what is the URI for that book instance? or that book publication. we don't have an answer

01:25:11 <gcapiel> tzviya: exactly.  that is why we have the issue in the wiki

Tzviya Siegman: exactly. that is why we have the issue in the wiki

01:25:49 <gcapiel> ivan: let's pick up the issue of identifiers at some point in the future.  there may be other areas with the same problem.  or we use some dpub specific attribute like are used for aria or its

Ivan Herman: let's pick up the issue of identifiers at some point in the future. there may be other areas with the same problem. or we use some dpub specific attribute like are used for aria or its

01:26:13 <gcapiel> � which is the kind of discussion we may have with robin.  decision has to be made or some unknown third one

  which is the kind of discussion we may have with robin. decision has to be made or some unknown third one

01:26:41 <JeanK> q+

Jean Kaplansky: q+

01:26:43 <gcapiel> mgylling: but in terms of this particular use case.  maybe we are deviating, but i think we may want to lift from behavioral adaptive, since this is purely a metadata issue

Markus Gylling: but in terms of this particular use case. maybe we are deviating, but i think we may want to lift from behavioral adaptive, since this is purely a metadata issue

01:26:50 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

01:27:04 <gcapiel> � we need a way for predictablity at the microdata and html level

  we need a way for predictablity at the microdata and html level

01:27:18 <mgylling_> ack Jean

Markus Gylling: ack Jean

01:28:06 <gcapiel> jeank: going back to the edupub conf.  there was heavy use of class attribute demonstrated there.  this is a practice that has gone a long time.  we need to straighten that out before stuff goes too much further with 100 day initiative coming out of edupub

Jean Kaplansky: going back to the edupub conf. there was heavy use of class attribute demonstrated there. this is a practice that has gone a long time. we need to straighten that out before stuff goes too much further with 100 day initiative coming out of edupub

01:28:41 <gcapiel> � a lot of what tzviya is talking about is not just.  need to be bumped up to top of priority list

  a lot of what tzviya is talking about is not just. need to be bumped up to top of priority list

01:29:07 <gcapiel> mgylling: when robin comes we will talk about this and you're right that edupub profile is mixing class attribute in.  and it's an anti-pattern

Markus Gylling: when robin comes we will talk about this and you're right that edupub profile is mixing class attribute in. and it's an anti-pattern

01:29:25 <gcapiel> � if you look at oreilly they also started with class and they discovered ...

  if you look at oreilly they also started with class and they discovered ...

01:30:04 <gcapiel> jeanK: oreilly came out it differently than pearson and others.  it would be better if we had a schema.org solution. but we don't have that how.

Jean Kaplansky: oreilly came out it differently than Pearson and others. it would be better if we had a schema.org solution. but we don't have that how.

01:30:19 <gcapiel> mgylling: oreilly know uses data-type instead because it gets messy

Markus Gylling: oreilly know uses data-type instead because it gets messy

01:30:35 <gcapiel> jeank: i heard that tshould not be using data attribute either, because it was a misuse

Jean Kaplansky: i heard that should not be using data attribute either, because it was a misuse

01:30:53 <gcapiel> ivan: that's correct and we had long discussion with html5 people and we were pushed back

Ivan Herman: that's correct and we had long discussion with html5 people and we were pushed back

01:31:30 <gcapiel> gcapiel: bib-ex is looking at this maybe

Gerardo Capiel: bib-ex is looking at this maybe

01:31:38 <gcapiel> jeanK: level of detail is not there yet

Jean Kaplansky: level of detail is not there yet

01:32:16 <gcapiel> tzviya: i agree that is high priority

Tzviya Siegman: i agree that is high priority

01:32:24 <gcapiel> � class is playing a strong role

  class is playing a strong role

01:33:00 <gcapiel> � i have a few use cases where we need to define markup.  i have a few examples around index and notes and media specific markup.

  i have a few use cases where we need to define markup. i have a few examples around index and notes and media specific markup.

01:33:05 <gcapiel> � let's look at the index ones

  let's look at the index ones

01:33:43 <gcapiel> � http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1

  http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1

01:34:06 <gcapiel> � this is bit complicated because of filtering.  once you have categories in place then concept of collapsing cats is not as complicated

  this is bit complicated because of filtering. once you have categories in place then concept of collapsing cats is not as complicated

01:34:44 <gcapiel> � index 3 : http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC3#Behavioral_3

  index 3 : http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC3#Behavioral_3

01:35:04 <gcapiel> � this is a bit more complicated, but should be achievable in markup

  this is a bit more complicated, but should be achievable in markup

01:35:30 <gcapiel> ivan: i would like to understand from html / css friends pov whether something is missing

Ivan Herman: i would like to understand from html / css friends, whether something is missing

01:36:05 <gcapiel> � i was wondering if for these problems what is missing in the html/css and other friends?  or is something that can be implemented with judicious javascript and it's not a spec issue

  i was wondering if for these problems what is missing in the html/css and other friends? or is something that can be implemented with judicious javascript and it's not a spec issue

01:36:42 <gcapiel> tzviya: it can be done today with scripting, but it's complicated and labor intensive.  if we had a uniform way to do it and this term indicates a category of indexing like in epub

Tzviya Siegman: it can be done today with scripting, but it's complicated and labor intensive. if we had a uniform way to do it and this term indicates a category of indexing like in epub

01:36:57 <gcapiel> � then it would be far simpler for creating indexes or collapsing indexes

  then it would be far simpler for creating indexes or collapsing indexes

01:37:09 <gcapiel> ivan: from this tech pov this is the same problem as the previous one

Ivan Herman: from this tech pov this is the same problem as the previous one

01:37:35 <gcapiel> � if we have a universally accepted way of adding metadata to the various terms, then you get the addt info to make this simpler.  is there anything more than that?

  if we have a universally accepted way of adding metadata to the various terms, then you get the addt info to make this simpler. is there anything more than that?

01:37:42 <gcapiel> mgylling: i think not?

Markus Gylling: i think not?

01:37:55 <gcapiel> � this is exemplify why we need additional metadata.

  this is exemplify why we need additional metadata.

01:37:57 <gcapiel> ivan: yes

Ivan Herman: yes

01:38:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: yes and next one is also a markup issue and is doable with css. i have a product that will appear across print and digital and many of us do our markup this way.

Tzviya Siegman: yes and next one is also a markup issue and is doable with css. i have a product that will appear across print and digital and many of us do our markup this way.

01:39:05 <gcapiel> � if there we an easier way to have digi products skip print-only section.  concept of pseudo selector crossed my mind

  if there we an easier way to have digi products skip print-only section. concept of pseudo selector crossed my mind

01:39:29 <gcapiel> mgylling: we could use media, but it would be helpful to use markup.  question of why not do this in css?

Markus Gylling: we could use media, but it would be helpful to use markup. question of why not do this in css?

01:39:59 <gcapiel> tzviya: could be done in css.  it's just avoiding wrapping it in a span, because it's easier to style than something more concrete than a span

Tzviya Siegman: could be done in css. it's just avoiding wrapping it in a span, because it's easier to style than something more concrete than a span

01:40:41 <gcapiel> � not sure how do this with css than having to do a span for different formats.  it would make like easier.

  not sure how do this with css than having to do a span for different formats. it would make like easier.

01:40:59 <gcapiel> mgylling: this is a bit different than others.  it is an authoring time switching mechanism

Markus Gylling: this is a bit different than others. it is an authoring time switching mechanism

01:41:04 <gcapiel> tzviya: exactly

Tzviya Siegman: exactly

01:42:00 <gcapiel> ivan: to be honest for that example i think using class is perfectly fine and is the usual usage pattern.  so to mark part of the file as print or digital only with css is fine.

Ivan Herman: to be honest for that example i think using class is perfectly fine and is the usual usage pattern. so to mark part of the file as print or digital only with css is fine.

01:42:35 <gcapiel> � maybe the on the idpf you want to have standardized class attribute names unlike html5.  ow, using css class selectors seems fine

  maybe the on the idpf you want to have standardized class attribute names unlike html5. ow, using css class selectors seems fine

01:43:06 <gcapiel> mgylling: so in terms of gathering examples of why addt semantics are needed which is where we started.

Markus Gylling: so in terms of gathering examples of why addt semantics are needed which is where we started.

01:43:27 <gcapiel> � book semantics 1 should be about predictability and depth.  but others are examples of extending html

  book semantics 1 should be about predictability and depth. but others are examples of extending html

01:44:18 <gcapiel> � are there others?  for example, more direct behavioral imperatives like ibooks:background-audio-track or something like that that are not epub or data type

  are there others? for example, more direct behavioral imperatives like ibooks:background-audio-track or something like that that are not epub or data type

01:44:27 <gcapiel> � but dedicated attribute that specifies nature of something

  but dedicated attribute that specifies nature of something

01:44:36 <gcapiel> tzviya: can look into ibooks specific attributes

Tzviya Siegman: can look into ibooks specific attributes

01:45:07 <gcapiel> jeank: we just need to document their custom epub like types.  some drive navigational type features.  we can pull a list together

Jean Kaplansky: we just need to document their custom epub like types. some drive navigational type features. we can pull a list together

01:45:33 <gcapiel> mgylling: doesn't need to be complete, but has a fair number of examples of what pub industry is doing and it's a hetero set

Markus Gylling: doesn't need to be complete, but has a fair number of examples of what pub industry is doing and it's a hetero set

01:45:47 <gcapiel> tzviya: need to be careful about IP

Tzviya Siegman: need to be careful about IP

01:46:12 <gcapiel> mgylling: we need to generalize use cases

Markus Gylling: we need to generalize use cases

01:46:18 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

01:47:04 <gcapiel> mgylling: need to look at all special hooks out there

Markus Gylling: need to look at all special hooks out there

01:47:26 <gcapiel> � are you two sufficient sources of all this info?

  are you two sufficient sources of all this info?

01:47:38 <gcapiel> tzviya: we can use more info

Tzviya Siegman: we can use more info

01:48:01 <gcapiel> tzviya: we are working with bisg looking at this.

Tzviya Siegman: we are working with bisg looking at this.

01:48:11 <gcapiel> mgyling: that group will have all this

Markus Gylling: that group will have all this

01:48:24 <gcapiel> s/mgyling/mgylling/
01:48:57 <gcapiel> mgylling: to summarize we just need mechanism of examples to make it clear, not an exhaustive list.

Markus Gylling: to summarize we just need mechanism of examples to make it clear, not an exhaustive list.

01:49:09 <gcapiel> � we just need enough to know what's absolutely needed

  we just need enough to know what's absolutely needed

01:49:30 <gcapiel> jeank: those of those outside of epub are doing some unusual heuristics.

Jean Kaplansky: those of those outside of epub are doing some unusual heuristics.

01:49:51 <gcapiel> mgylling: heuristics instead of publisher provided markup

Markus Gylling: heuristics instead of publisher provided markup

01:50:22 <gcapiel> jeank: it also may be interested to speak with readium, since they are familiar with w3c specs.

Jean Kaplansky: it also may be interested to speak with readium, since they are familiar with w3c specs.

01:50:40 <mgylling_> q?

Markus Gylling: q?

01:50:42 <gcapiel> mgylling: readium does not contain heuristics, i believe.

Markus Gylling: readium does not contain heuristics, i believe.

01:50:47 <mgylling_> ack Ivan

Markus Gylling: ack Ivan

01:51:32 <gcapiel> ivan: getting back to id issue.  is it correct that in all these examples that the metadata is not on manifestation level (e.g. the book on my ipad)

Ivan Herman: getting back to id issue. is it correct that in all these examples that the metadata is not on manifestation level (e.g. the book on my ipad)

01:52:39 <gcapiel> ivan: let's supposed there's an ideal world where isbn are unique.  then id to be usable for microdata for rdfa using id.  however if it's added to book that i own, then this id doesn't work anymore.

Ivan Herman: let's supposed there's an ideal world where isbn are unique. then id to be usable for microdata for rdfa using id. however if it's added to book that i own, then this id doesn't work anymore.

01:52:50 <gcapiel> � do we have the easy or hard problem?

  do we have the easy or hard problem?

01:53:12 <gcapiel> tzviya: if i understand correctly, if isbn is unique...

Tzviya Siegman: if i understand correctly, if isbn is unique...

01:53:52 <gcapiel> ivan: the isbn would be the subject for all the metadata and that would be kosher because it gives unique id.  but that would not work, if i want to add to the instance on my device.

Ivan Herman: the isbn would be the subject for all the metadata and that would be kosher because it gives unique id. but that would not work, if i want to add to the instance on my device.

01:53:59 <gcapiel> � are your examples on first or second?

  are your examples on first or second?

01:54:11 <gcapiel> � second case would be for use annotation

  second case would be for use annotation

01:54:35 <gcapiel> � we may choose for this specific use case category, we may choose to do it where ID can be done easily.

  we may choose for this specific use case category, we may choose to do it where ID can be done easily.

01:55:12 <gcapiel> tzviya: to make it more complicated.  if i have a book with 10 chapters, i have one isbn for all the 10, but then i want to sell chapter 1 separately

Tzviya Siegman: to make it more complicated. if i have a book with 10 chapters, i have one isbn for all the 10, but then i want to sell chapter 1 separately

01:55:42 <gcapiel> ivan: not a problem using fragment IDs.  we have to define fragments, but not a major problem if we have an id of work

Ivan Herman: not a problem using fragment IDs. we have to define fragments, but not a major problem if we have an id of work

01:55:58 <gcapiel> brady_duga: only if id is unique for chapter 7

Brady Duga: only if id is unique for chapter 7

01:56:34 <gcapiel> ivan: isbn for title.  problem comes if i want to annotate title on my machine.

Ivan Herman: isbn for title. problem comes if i want to annotate title on my machine.

01:57:02 <gcapiel> brady_duga: you need some unique id, but you're assuming that you're assuming the subset is using the same identifier

Brady Duga: you need some unique id, but you're assuming that you're assuming the subset is using the same identifier

01:57:17 <gcapiel> ivan: not sure what practice is.  whether isbn is good enough

Ivan Herman: not sure what practice is. whether isbn is good enough

01:57:23 <gcapiel> brady_duga: some do not use isbn

Brady Duga: some do not use isbn

01:57:30 <gcapiel> ivan: then we have a problem

Ivan Herman: then we have a problem

01:57:49 <gcapiel> tzviya: do we need a unique id to sell chapter 7?

Tzviya Siegman: do we need a unique id to sell chapter 7?

01:58:16 <gcapiel> � pub will need to be rewired.  fragment id creates unique id.

  pub will need to be rewired. fragment id creates unique id.

01:58:22 <mgylling_> darobin: you joining us soonish?

Robin Berjon: you joining us soonish? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ]

01:58:28 <gcapiel> brady_duga: questions of how you know ownership

Brady Duga: questions of how you know ownership

01:58:34 <gcapiel> � based on a unique ID

  based on a unique ID

01:58:42 <gcapiel> � out of my area

  out of my area

01:58:59 <gcapiel> tzviya: can't imagine doing this without isbn

Tzviya Siegman: can't imagine doing this without isbn

01:59:13 <gcapiel> ivan: not sure what practice is with publishers

Ivan Herman: not sure what practice is with publishers

01:59:26 <JeanK> q+

Jean Kaplansky: q+

01:59:42 <gcapiel> brady_duga: lack of unique ID is a bug.

Brady Duga: lack of unique ID is a bug.

01:59:51 <gcapiel> � spec should assume that there are unique ID

  spec should assume that there are unique ID

02:00:51 <gcapiel> ivan: one way of moving forward of making problem a bit easier, then we don't need HTML5 extension.  not sure whether schema.org has sufficient vocab or epub needs to define it with rdfa without problem is another possibilty

Ivan Herman: one way of moving forward of making problem a bit easier, then we don't need HTML5 extension. not sure whether schema.org has sufficient vocab or epub needs to define it with rdfa without problem is another possibilty

02:00:55 <mgylling_> ack Jean

Markus Gylling: ack Jean

02:01:25 <gcapiel> tzviya: libraries do not use isbn.  most libraries use loc cataloguing number.

Tzviya Siegman: libraries do not use isbn. most libraries use loc cataloguing number.

02:01:52 <gcapiel> jeank: each country has their own way.

Jean Kaplansky: each country has their own way.

02:02:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: ivan in your vision are you saying everyone has to use same scheme?

Markus Gylling: ivan in your vision are you saying everyone has to use same scheme?

02:02:26 <gcapiel> ivan: no, putting on semantic hat, what rdf says subject has to have unique URI

Ivan Herman: no, putting on semantic hat, what rdf says subject has to have unique URI

02:02:45 <gcapiel> � we prefer http URI, but urn with ISBN

  we prefer http URI, but urn with ISBN

02:03:07 <gcapiel> � it's ok.  but if we use rdfa we need identifier.  microdata doesn't address this issue.

  it's ok. but if we use rdfa we need identifier. microdata doesn't address this issue.

02:03:17 <gcapiel> � because you use itemscope and props

  because you use itemscope and props

02:03:42 <gcapiel> � it's left vague and undef.  personally it does not seem like a clean approach and html5 folks will disagree.

  it's left vague and undef. personally it does not seem like a clean approach and html5 folks will disagree.

02:03:56 <gcapiel> mgylling: ivan what is the takeaway here?

Markus Gylling: ivan what is the takeaway here?

02:04:42 <gcapiel> ivan: 1st we have to understand the options and robin can help.  what does it mean if epub wants to have it's own approach. e.g. epub- or something like that

Ivan Herman: 1st we have to understand the options and robin can help. what does it mean if epub wants to have it's own approach. e.g. epub- or something like that

02:04:53 <gcapiel> � tzviya's examples could be done that way

  tzviya's examples could be done that way

02:05:00 <gcapiel> � that's a way of doing it

  that's a way of doing it

02:05:35 <gcapiel> � if it's messy or if we prefer to reuse vocabs then we can use microdata or rdfa approach and need to check whether vocab exists that covers the needs, which it probably doesn't.

  if it's messy or if we prefer to reuse vocabs then we can use microdata or rdfa approach and need to check whether vocab exists that covers the needs, which it probably doesn't.

02:05:44 <gcapiel> � and it needs to be define and we need to figure out ID

  and it needs to be define and we need to figure out ID

02:06:00 <gcapiel> � if we go html5 route, the vocab issue is still open

  if we go html5 route, the vocab issue is still open

02:06:31 <gcapiel> mgylling: discussing two different things.  struct semantics stuff where there is a pretty unison opinion that rdfa is overkill.

Markus Gylling: discussing two different things. struct semantics stuff where there is a pretty unison opinion that rdfa is overkill.

02:06:45 <gcapiel> ivan: rdfa lite is not an overkill.  similar to microdata in terms of complexity

Ivan Herman: rdfa lite is not an overkill. similar to microdata in terms of complexity

02:07:04 <gcapiel> � we need vocab and someone needs to define it

  we need vocab and someone needs to define it

02:07:10 <gcapiel> mgylling: idpf has it

Markus Gylling: idpf has it

02:07:35 <gcapiel> � not following.  between prior discussions

  not following. between prior discussions

02:08:00 <gcapiel> ivan: it's a mix.  indexes for example via the index you def something deep into the contents that could be used out of that role as well

Ivan Herman: it's a mix. indexes for example via the index you def something deep into the contents that could be used out of that role as well

02:08:09 <gcapiel> � not clean

  not clean

02:08:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: can i send you an example that you can markup?

Tzviya Siegman: can i send you an example that you can markup?

02:08:35 <gcapiel> ivan: yes, not this week

Ivan Herman: yes, not this week

02:08:43 <gcapiel> � but send it

  but send it

02:08:48 <JeanK> +1 on Tzviya's request for Ivan's RDF vision!

Jean Kaplansky: +1 on Tzviya's request for Ivan's RDF vision!

02:10:59 <gcapiel> mgylling: taking a 2-3 minute break

Markus Gylling: taking a 2-3 minute break

02:16:51 <gcapiel> zakim, who is talking?
Markus Gylling: we could use epub- for class attributes
02:22:46 <ivan> Guest: Robin (darobin) Berjon, W3C
02:22:48 <gcapiel> mgylling: welcome robin.  timely we were just talking about its 2.0

Markus Gylling: welcome robin. timely we were just talking about its 2.0

02:23:07 <gcapiel> � robin is one of the editors of the html5 specv

  robin is one of the editors of the html5 specv

02:23:34 <gcapiel> � basically the problem cluster we have been wandering around is about metadata and behavior on top of html

  basically the problem cluster we have been wandering around is about metadata and behavior on top of html

02:23:59 <gcapiel> � situtation is not just about epub being stuck in html serializations, but also how to enhance semantics.  epub uses epub:

  situtation is not just about epub being stuck in html serializations, but also how to enhance semantics. epub uses epub:

02:24:18 <gcapiel> � oreilly is working on authoring time schema using class attribute, but abandoned in favor of data type attribute

  oreilly is working on authoring time schema using class attribute, but abandoned in favor of data type attribute

02:24:28 <gcapiel> darobin: that's wrong

Robin Berjon: that's wrong

02:24:37 <gcapiel> mgylling: pearson is doing a mix.

Markus Gylling: pearson is doing a mix.

02:24:54 <gcapiel> � we would like to quickly identify a solution that is unified and serialization neutral

  we would like to quickly identify a solution that is unified and serialization neutral

02:25:01 <gcapiel> � collection that works in xhtml and html

  collection that works in xhtml and html

02:25:12 <gcapiel> � and looks and behaves the same way

  and looks and behaves the same way

02:25:20 <gcapiel> � it would be interesting to look at its 2.0

  it would be interesting to look at its 2.0

02:25:36 <gcapiel> darobin: so i'm not super familiar with ITS details.

Robin Berjon: so i'm not super familiar with ITS details.

02:26:17 <gcapiel> � what they have done is taken a bunch of attributes with its- as a prefix.  the validator considers it as applicable specification and accepts it as valid html

  what they have done is taken a bunch of attributes with its- as a prefix. the validator considers it as applicable specification and accepts it as valid html

02:26:29 <gcapiel> � this mean that the same approach that the same approach could be used by epub

  this mean that the same approach that the same approach could be used by epub

02:26:45 <gcapiel> � in the same sort of spec for one or more attributes that would function the same

  in the same sort of spec for one or more attributes that would function the same

02:27:00 <gcapiel> ivan: what does an acceptable / applicable extension mean?

Ivan Herman: what does an acceptable / applicable extension mean?

02:27:11 <gcapiel> darobin: we don't want to list everything that a user can support

Robin Berjon: we don't want to list everything that a user can support

02:27:17 <gcapiel> � people should be free to mix stuff up

  people should be free to mix stuff up

02:27:39 <gcapiel> � based on what the user agents support

  based on what the user agents support

02:27:57 <gcapiel> � if epub- or book- or digipub- is implemented then it's fine

  if epub- or book- or digipub- is implemented then it's fine

02:28:07 <gcapiel> � by html working group standard it's perfectly

  by html working group standard it's perfectly

02:28:24 <gcapiel> ivan: does the html5 validator need a stable document spec published by somebody

Ivan Herman: does the html5 validator need a stable document spec published by somebody

02:28:38 <gcapiel> darobin: technically we don't need anything.  we don't give out stamps of approval

Robin Berjon: technically we don't need anything. we don't give out stamps of approval

02:29:04 <gcapiel> � that being said, if you want it accepted by w3c validator, one way to convince them you need to have a royalty free public spec

  that being said, if you want it accepted by w3c validator, one way to convince them you need to have a royalty free public spec

02:29:44 <gcapiel> ivan: if we produce a spec with a set of attribute epub-xyz and later epub-aaa, then it's not a problem.  we just need to specify epub-

Ivan Herman: if we produce a spec with a set of attribute epub-xyz and later epub-aaa, then it's not a problem. we just need to specify epub-

02:30:05 <gcapiel> � if idpf or this group publishes a note of the way we want to go.  is that good enough?

  if IDPF or this group publishes a note of the way we want to go. is that good enough?

02:30:17 <gcapiel> darobin: can't vouch for validator team, but that seems to be what is accepted

Robin Berjon: can't vouch for validator team, but that seems to be what is accepted

02:30:25 <gcapiel> ivan: does it need to be much?

Ivan Herman: does it need to be much?

02:30:35 <gcapiel> darobin - if you remove the boilerplate, 2-3 pages

darobin - if you remove the boilerplate, 2-3 pages

02:30:42 <gcapiel> � doesn't have to be complicated

  doesn't have to be complicated

02:30:58 <gcapiel> tzviya: what about extensibility of this list?

Tzviya Siegman: what about extensibility of this list?

02:31:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: that's the values

Markus Gylling: that's the values

02:31:27 <gcapiel> ivan: what i'm undestanding is that the validator accepts all attribute epub-

Ivan Herman: what i'm undestanding is that the validator accepts all attribute epub-

02:31:37 <gcapiel> darobin - no, they don't like wildcarding

darobin - no, they don't like wildcarding

02:31:50 <gcapiel> � they check syntax.  and it depends on the spec

  they check syntax. and it depends on the spec

02:32:02 <gcapiel> � and the value space that you are defining

  and the value space that you are defining

02:32:20 <gcapiel> � attributes names need to be fixed

  attributes names need to be fixed

02:32:38 <gcapiel> � because in it's hard to check partial names

  because in it's hard to check partial names

02:33:02 <gcapiel> ivan: that's doable

Ivan Herman: that's doable

02:33:09 <gcapiel> darobin: you can always add attributes

Robin Berjon: you can always add attributes

02:33:22 <gcapiel> � you just need to coordinate as long as it's not an attribute a month

  you just need to coordinate as long as it's not an attribute a month

02:33:38 <gcapiel> mgylling: epub-type would be primary one

Markus Gylling: epub-type would be primary one

02:35:10 <gcapiel> mgylling: from idpf perspective, we want to move fast.

Markus Gylling: from idpf perspective, we want to move fast.

02:35:17 <gcapiel> � what does w3c suggest?

  what does w3c suggest?

02:35:38 <gcapiel> � it's a note.  which only takes about a week once doc is done

  it's a note. which only takes about a week once doc is done

02:35:49 <gcapiel> darobin: could be 24 hours once publishing happens

Robin Berjon: could be 24 hours once publishing happens

02:35:54 <gcapiel> ivan: not a big deal

Ivan Herman: not a big deal

02:36:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: should this happen in w3c or idpf space?

Markus Gylling: should this happen in w3c or idpf space?

02:36:39 <gcapiel> ivan: idpf is probably a better known place because it's not seen as much as an outsider

Ivan Herman: idpf is probably a better known place because it's not seen as much as an outsider

02:36:55 <gcapiel> � doing it only as w3c doc is not a good idea

  doing it only as w3c doc is not a good idea

02:37:13 <JeanK> ++1 to the idea of a jointly published note from both the IDPF and W3C...

Jean Kaplansky: ++1 to the idea of a jointly published note from both the IDPF and W3C...

02:37:25 <gcapiel> ivan: we will find a way

Ivan Herman: we will find a way

02:37:44 <gcapiel> mgylling: let's talk about pagination dom events

Markus Gylling: let's talk about pagination dom events

02:38:17 <gcapiel> � let's summarize quickly

  let's summarize quickly

02:38:38 <gcapiel> � both tzviya and jeank are continuing to gather examples of custom attributes for behavioral extension or suppression

  both tzviya and jeank are continuing to gather examples of custom attributes for behavioral extension or suppression

02:38:47 <gcapiel> � we did ask to move title stuff into metadata

  we did ask to move title stuff into metadata

02:39:00 <gcapiel> � we have identified a path for epub- space that we will pursue

  we have identified a path for epub- space that we will pursue

02:39:45 <gcapiel> mgylling: what about identfiers conundrum?

Markus Gylling: what about identfiers conundrum?

02:40:16 <gcapiel> ivan: it seems for this category of use cases the approach we discussing with darobin is probably the way to go, thus ID discussion is not necessary for this issue, but will come back for other topics

Ivan Herman: it seems for this category of use cases the approach we discussing with darobin is probably the way to go, thus ID discussion is not necessary for this issue, but will come back for other topics

  let's push it to annotation people where it's a major issue
02:40:45 <tzviya> we lost the phone line

Tzviya Siegman: we lost the phone line

02:40:46 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan

02:40:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

02:40:48 <Zakim> +Songshan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan

02:41:22 <darobin> Zakim, who's making noise?

Robin Berjon: Zakim, who's making noise?

02:41:34 <Zakim> darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tzviya (32%), JeanKaplansky (15%)

Zakim IRC Bot: darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tzviya (32%), JeanKaplansky (15%)

02:41:38 <JeanK> Tzviya and I are!!!

Jean Kaplansky: Tzviya and I are!!!


Zakim IRC Bot: -Songshan

02:41:48 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan

02:41:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

02:41:48 <duga> We are trying to get back on

Brady Duga: We are trying to get back on

02:41:49 <Zakim> +Songshan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan

02:42:31 <gcapiel> ivan: [replaying discusion]

Ivan Herman: [replaying discusion]

02:43:33 <ivan> Topic: dom events, pagination

2. DOM events, pagination

02:43:38 <gcapiel> mgylling: should we quickly cover dom events and pagination

Markus Gylling: should we quickly cover dom events and pagination

02:45:00 <gcapiel> brady_duga: speaking of pagination.  dave cramer is working on issues around it.  questions around pagination really means.  when we take a html doc and break into pages.  what is a page and what pages should be visible.  ordering.  how do we know a page has loaded.  we talk about styling, but not from a dom perspective.

Brady Duga: speaking of pagination. dave cramer is working on issues around it. questions around pagination really means. when we take a html doc and break into pages. what is a page and what pages should be visible. ordering. how do we know a page has loaded. we talk about styling, but not from a dom perspective.

02:45:13 <fjh> zakim, code>

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code>

02:45:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code>', fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'code>', fjh

02:45:18 <fjh> zakim, code?

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code?

02:45:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh

02:45:37 <gcapiel> darobin: good questions.  lots of diff answers.  if entire book is a doc or something large than page.  page is viewport.

Robin Berjon: good questions. lots of diff answers. if entire book is a doc or something large than page. page is viewport.

02:45:57 <gcapiel> � does not give you page number

  does not give you page number

02:45:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

02:46:04 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] i sme

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] i sme

02:46:04 <Zakim> I don't understand '[IPcaller] i sme', fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '[IPcaller] i sme', fjh

02:46:20 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] is me

02:46:20 <Zakim> +fjh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +fjh; got it

02:46:53 <gcapiel> brady_duga: not saying everything is defined.  some pieces are there in css, viewports in css object model.  recommend creating new events like next page, previous page.  this is easy.

Brady Duga: not saying everything is defined. some pieces are there in css, viewports in css object model. recommend creating new events like next page, previous page. this is easy.

02:47:20 <gcapiel> brady_duga: viewport is not quite good enough.

Brady Duga: viewport is not quite good enough.

02:47:34 <gcapiel> darobin: don't use xquery for this

Robin Berjon: don't use xquery for this

02:48:00 <gcapiel> brady_duga: don't have answers to this stuff and different browsers doing diff things

Brady Duga: don't have answers to this stuff and different browsers doing diff things

02:48:31 <gcapiel> darobin: don't do this beyond for making content interoperable.

Robin Berjon: don't do this beyond for making content interoperable.

02:48:48 <gcapiel> � for ex mobile alliance, didn't have a good definition of what a mobile device was

  for ex mobile alliance, didn't have a good definition of what a mobile device was

02:49:02 <gcapiel> � laptop?  time was lost in def

  laptop? time was lost in def

02:49:25 <gcapiel> � agree a subset of questions need to be answered, such as page change and styling for pages.

  agree a subset of questions need to be answered, such as page change and styling for pages.

02:49:36 <gcapiel> � you may not need all of it for good content

  you may not need all of it for good content

02:50:29 <gcapiel> brady_duga: maybe the answer is there is no such thing as a page.  right now it kind of works, but is painful.  would be better to do at browser level for performance

Brady Duga: maybe the answer is there is no such thing as a page. right now it kind of works, but is painful. would be better to do at browser level for performance

02:51:14 <gcapiel> ivan: need to understand way forward by seeing what various devices do

Ivan Herman: need to understand way forward by seeing what various devices do

02:51:35 <gcapiel> brady_duga: webkit kind of has this.

Brady Duga: webkit kind of has this.

02:51:46 <gcapiel> � but not exposed

  but not exposed

02:52:06 <gcapiel> � not exposed to JS, so you can't go to a page

  not exposed to JS, so you can't go to a page

02:52:09 <gcapiel> � internal trick

  internal trick

02:52:31 <gcapiel> ivan: we need the same thing we need for the metadata stuff.  let's collect info what's done today and what's painful.

Ivan Herman: we need the same thing we need for the metadata stuff. let's collect info what's done today and what's painful.

02:52:42 <gcapiel> � so we can understand the level of abstraction needed.

  so we can understand the level of abstraction needed.

02:52:58 <gcapiel> mgylling: we need use cases from user point of view and what pubs need.

Markus Gylling: we need use cases from user point of view and what pubs need.

02:53:02 <gcapiel> to trigger actions

to trigger actions

02:53:10 <gcapiel> � and various things actors need to do

  and various things actors need to do

02:53:47 <gcapiel> ivan: readium should give us info where problems where

Ivan Herman: readium should give us info where problems where

02:53:58 <tzviya> q
02:54:01 <tzviya> +
02:54:04 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

02:54:32 <ivan> ack tzviya

Ivan Herman: ack tzviya

02:54:38 <gcapiel> tzviya: term pagination means many things and it's confusing

Tzviya Siegman: term pagination means many things and it's confusing

02:54:56 <gcapiel> � we use it to mean parity with print book and also talking about it from a visual standpoint

  we use it to mean parity with print book and also talking about it from a visual standpoint

02:55:09 <gcapiel> � for example dealing with widows, etc.

  for example dealing with widows, etc.

02:55:16 <gcapiel> � brady_duga is talking about event triggers

  brady_duga is talking about event triggers

02:55:34 <JeanK> +1 to Tzviya. We need a taxonomy.

Jean Kaplansky: +1 to Tzviya. We need a taxonomy.

02:55:55 <gcapiel> � let's not forget that the same issue doesn't happen in just browsers

  let's not forget that the same issue doesn't happen in just browsers

02:56:18 <gcapiel> ivan: so operationally, let's say this group produces a doc and we give you doc.

Ivan Herman: so operationally, let's say this group produces a doc and we give you doc.

02:56:37 <gcapiel> darobin: depends on what's on the doc.  it should not be about styling.

Robin Berjon: depends on what's on the doc. it should not be about styling.

02:56:45 <gcapiel> ivan: we have a separate doc on styling issues

Ivan Herman: we have a separate doc on styling issues

02:57:09 <gcapiel> darobin: if it were reqs for html, js and dom, then it could happen in html working group

Robin Berjon: if it were reqs for html, js and dom, then it could happen in html working group

02:57:23 <gcapiel> � not sure it can be pulled of by darobin on his own

  not sure it can be pulled of by darobin on his own

02:57:40 <gcapiel> � html5 official req still needs to be shipped

  html5 official req still needs to be shipped

02:57:53 <gcapiel> � area i'm in interested in

  area i'm in interested in

02:58:03 <gcapiel> � and others too

  and others too

02:58:22 <gcapiel> ivan: we knew this is the way this should happen

Ivan Herman: we knew this is the way this should happen

02:58:45 <gcapiel> darobin: we do see this needed in browsers too

Robin Berjon: we do see this needed in browsers too

02:58:56 <gcapiel> brady_duga: we have reading systems in browsers too

Brady Duga: we have reading systems in browsers too

02:59:03 <gcapiel> ivan: do we do this with dom4?

Ivan Herman: do we do this with dom4?

02:59:18 <gcapiel> darobin: yes.  dom4 is about fundamental trees and is extensible

Robin Berjon: yes. dom4 is about fundamental trees and is extensible

02:59:55 <gcapiel> ivan: let's take 15

Ivan Herman: let's take 15

03:00:30 <Zakim> -fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: -fjh

03:00:31 <Zakim> -tzviya

Zakim IRC Bot: -tzviya

03:00:33 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeanKaplansky

03:10:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Frederick Hirsch: /me will probably drop of in 30 minutes or so

03:24:49 <fjh> zakim, who is here?

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, who is here?

03:24:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Songshan, fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Songshan, fjh

03:24:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see walkley, duga, kaki_, cwdoh, koji, bobby, kaki, trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see walkley, duga, kaki_, cwdoh, koji, bobby, kaki, trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_,

03:24:50 <Zakim> ... fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, plinss

Zakim IRC Bot: ... fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, plinss

03:25:20 <tmichel> scribe: tmichel

(Scribe set to Thierry Michel)

03:25:26 <tmichel> topic:security

3. digital publishing security

03:25:44 <tmichel> digital publishing security issues

Sharad presents his slides about Digital publishing security

First slide : Digital publishing security issues

03:26:46 <tmichel> digitral books benefits (low costs, portability, richer content, easy to distribute, ease of use, to modify

Digital books benefits (low costs, portability, richer content, easy to distribute, ease of use, ease to modify

03:27:00 <tmichel> but several challenges and issues ...

but several challenges and issues ...

03:27:14 <tmichel> distribution content ...

distribution content ...

03:27:44 <tmichel> publisher create content and provide content to 3rd party stores ...

publisher create content and provide content to 3rd party stores ...

03:28:09 <tmichel> Users buy content from 3rd party Stores or Market place

Users buy content from 3rd party Stores or Market place

03:28:41 <tmichel> ... Users can purchase content from publishers site ...

... Users can purchase content from publishers site ...

03:29:04 <tmichel> There are security at each of these level.

There are security at each of these level.

03:30:15 <tmichel> ant each level from moved publisher to store / 3rd party stores content purchase

and each level like when moved from publisher to store / 3rd party stores content purchase

03:30:52 <tmichel> New slides: publishers related security issues

Next slide: Publishers related security issues

03:30:54 <fjh> is there a need to distinguish attack of individual taking content for personal use versus taking content to publish in volume, cannot the first be handled by pricing?

Frederick Hirsch: is there a need to distinguish attack of individual taking content for personal use versus taking content to publish in volume, cannot the first be handled by pricing?

03:31:09 <tmichel> ... during content development

... during content development

03:32:16 <tmichel> right management (multiple right management, each with strenghts and weakness)

right management (multiple right management, each with strenghts and weakness)

03:32:25 <tmichel> transmission/distribution

transmission/distribution

03:32:47 <tmichel> making sure the digital content is securely transmitted.

making sure the digital content is securely transmitted.

03:32:58 <tmichel> Next slide Client side issues

Next slide :Client side issues

03:33:40 <tmichel> encryption on Device  dpub books are always encrypted on users devices

encryption on Device dpub books are always encrypted on users devices

03:34:02 <tmichel> securing the Licence/ Encryption Key on device

securing the Licence/ Encryption Key on device

03:34:54 <tmichel> Access control (enforcing publisher policy like cut and paste, disable printing) ....

Access control (enforcing publisher policy like cut and paste, disable printing) ....

03:35:16 <tmichel> or limitrd number of devices content can be opened on.

or limited number of devices content can be opened on.

03:35:52 <tmichel> Interoperability issues (how to play content from different publishers using security technos

Interoperability issues (how to play content from different publishers using security technologies)

03:36:42 <fjh> q+

Frederick Hirsch: q+

03:37:31 <mgylling_> ack fjh

Markus Gylling: ack fjh

03:38:16 <tmichel> frederic: republishing issues ?

Frederick Hirsch: republishing issues ?

03:38:35 <tmichel> Sharad should present this at the end of his presentation

Sharad should present this at the end of his presentation

03:38:54 <fjh> my question is whether we can make sure we frame the problem correctly, since otherwise there is much detail

Frederick Hirsch: my question is whether we can make sure we frame the problem correctly, since otherwise there is much detail

03:38:55 <tmichel> NExt slide: Un authorised Copy and Distribution

Next slide: Un authorised Copy and Distribution

03:39:07 <fjh> is it possible to focus on large redistribution rather than individual?

Frederick Hirsch: is it possible to focus on large redistribution rather than individual?

03:39:21 <fjh> otherwise concern about usability, convenience, accessibility etc?

Frederick Hirsch: otherwise concern about usability, convenience, accessibility etc?

03:39:28 <fjh> really just  a question

Frederick Hirsch: really just a question

03:39:56 <tmichel> Offline Consumption (paid ebook for reading off line)

Offline Consumption (paid ebook for reading off line)

03:40:21 <tmichel> and copy and un-authorised distribution

and copy and un-authorised distribution

03:41:05 <tmichel> prevent un-authorised copies

prevent un-authorised copies

03:41:38 <tmichel> Next slide: un-authorised copy and distribution

Next slide: Browser support for digital books

03:47:31 <tmichel> s/un-authorised copy and distribution/browser support for digital books/
03:48:12 <fjh> what I think I'm hearing is that DRM requirement depends on target market segment, and that text books may be different than others

Frederick Hirsch: what I think I'm hearing is that DRM requirement depends on target market segment, and that text books may be different than others

03:48:41 <tmichel> digital content can be consumed from publisher's website via browsers without downloading onto a local device

digital content can be consumed from publisher's website via browsers without downloading onto a local device

03:48:54 <tmichel> which triggers issues.

which triggers issues.

03:49:04 <tmichel> next slide Next steps

Next slide: Next steps

03:49:49 <tmichel> provide input, develop detailed Use cases

provide input, develop detailed Use cases

03:50:00 <tmichel> privicy issues.

privicy issues.

03:50:45 <tmichel> Mgylling: what are the new things you want to provide that are not existing in DRM ?

Markus Gylling: what are the new things you want to provide that are not existing in DRM ?

03:51:34 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

03:51:38 <fjh> I suspect users don't want DRM at all

Frederick Hirsch: I suspect users don't want DRM at all

03:51:42 <mgylling_> ack Ivan

Markus Gylling: ack Ivan

03:51:48 <tmichel> proiders and publisher have each their own DRM system

providers and publishers have each their own DRM system

03:52:05 <tmichel> s/proider/providers/
03:52:47 <tmichel> Ivan: industry does not have an agreement. So there is a huge variety of systems for DRM

Ivan Herman: industry does not have an agreement. So there is a huge variety of systems for DRM

03:53:00 <fjh> watermarking offers a mitigation of bulk copying but does not disturb legitimate user

Frederick Hirsch: watermarking offers a mitigation of bulk copying but does not disturb legitimate user

03:53:46 <tmichel> Sharad: So many solutions that are not all working

Sharad Garg: So many solutions that are not all working

03:54:00 <tmichel> therfore should list use Cases ...

therfore should list use Cases ...

03:54:28 <tmichel> Ivan: there are major technologies to encrypt and signed ...

Ivan Herman: there are major technologies to encrypt and signed ...

03:54:43 <fjh> q+

Frederick Hirsch: q+

03:54:55 <tmichel> ... on the DRM side I have difficulties to deal with this ...

... on the DRM side I have difficulties to deal with this ...

03:55:15 <tmichel> Sharad: it is not only DRM but also security issues

Sharad Garg: it is not only DRM but also security issues

03:55:27 <ivan> ack fjh

Ivan Herman: ack fjh

03:56:35 <tmichel> sharad: not trying to give solutions ... but trying to collect UC and requirements.

Sharad Garg: not trying to give solutions ... but trying to collect UC and requirements.

03:56:52 <tmichel> Then, see to who we should input these requirements.

Then, see to who we should input these requirements.

03:57:11 <tmichel> And maybe technology already exist.

And maybe technology already exist.

03:58:11 <fjh> q+

Frederick Hirsch: q+

03:58:38 <tmichel> ivan: the UC metadata we discussed this morning for example are easy to have consensus within the group. It may be more difficult to get such consensus about the validy of these UCs for security and DRM

Ivan Herman: the UC metadata we discussed this morning for example are easy to have consensus within the group. It may be more difficult to get such consensus about the validy of these UCs for security and DRM

03:59:19 <tmichel> mgylling: this iw exactly what happened in idph when we started collecting these kind of UCs.

Markus Gylling: this iw exactly what happened in idpf when we started collecting these kind of UCs.

03:59:39 <tmichel> We couldn't achive anything in this field.

We couldn't achive anything in this field.

03:59:40 <mgylling_> s/idph/idpf/
03:59:42 <ivan> ack fjh

Ivan Herman: ack fjh

04:00:23 <tmichel> Sharad: happy to do some more work if needed.

Sharad Garg: happy to do some more work if needed.

04:01:17 <tmichel> ivan: move issues to look at like security and privacy issues. Do they apply to epub.

Ivan Herman: move issues to look at like security and privacy issues. Do they apply to epub.

04:01:19 <fjh> DRM is a different issue than security issues, agreed

Frederick Hirsch: DRM is a different issue than security issues, agreed

04:02:03 <fjh> We definitely should understand such broader security issues, as mentioned in my email

Frederick Hirsch: We definitely should understand such broader security issues, as mentioned in my email

04:02:16 <tmichel> privacy issues about ereaders collecting my behavior abouthow I am reading my books.

privacy issues about ereaders collecting my behavior abouthow I am reading my books.

04:02:23 <fjh> +1

Frederick Hirsch: +1

04:02:47 <tmichel> ... might be really relevant to look into security and privacy

... might be really relevant to look into security and privacy

04:03:47 <tmichel> sharad: will work with frederic to work on UC and requirements on security and privacy issues.

Sharad Garg: will work with frederic to work on UC and requirements on security and privacy issues.

04:04:24 <tmichel> Mgylling: Any one to repport on EME ?

Markus Gylling: Any one to repport on EME ?

04:04:40 <tmichel> ivan: current spycho drama ;-)

Ivan Herman: current psycho drama ;-)

04:05:16 <tmichel> ivan: for book readers I guess EME would not be the right approch.

Ivan Herman: for book readers I guess EME would not be the right approch.

04:05:40 <tmichel> ... need to have a secure envirement within the browser.

... need to have a secure envirement within the browser.

04:05:55 <tmichel> mgylling: anymore issues ?

Markus Gylling: anymore issues ?

04:06:14 <tmichel> ...maybe we should break for lunch ...

...maybe we should break for lunch ...

04:06:32 <Zakim> -fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: -fjh

04:07:26 <tmichel> mgylling: After lunch we will discuss security issues

Markus Gylling: After lunch we will discuss security issues

4. Accessibility

05:35:41 <duga> Guest: Jason White
05:35:51 <ivan> Guest: Jason White
05:36:43 <duga> Jason: intro - lots of experience on standard, a11y

Jason White: intro - lots of experience on standard, a11y

05:37:06 <duga> ... joining us to discuss a11y in digipub

... joining us to discuss a11y in digipub

05:37:21 <duga> ... will help us pilot through other WGs

... will help us pilot through other WGs

05:37:58 <duga> mgylling: This IG is looking at everything, a11y is high priority

Markus Gylling: This IG is looking at everything, a11y is high priority

05:38:43 <duga> ... in ebook space still trying to get to a point where we can maximize web a11y tech

... in ebook space still trying to get to a point where we can maximize web a11y tech

05:39:23 <duga> ... have a history where the entire web access stack is missing

... have a history where the entire web access stack is missing

05:39:31 <duga> ... want to enable it everywhere

... want to enable it everywhere

05:39:59 <duga> ... Are there differences in priority for the web vs books

... Are there differences in priority for the web vs books

05:40:18 <duga> ... for instance, web browsing vs a university student studying

... for instance, web browsing vs a university student studying

05:40:34 <duga> ... need to point out differences

... need to point out differences

05:41:02 <duga> ... eg need to have efficient, accurate speech synthesis

... eg need to have efficient, accurate speech synthesis

05:41:24 <duga> ... 2 themes - 1. how do we content and impl on aria bandwagon

... 2 themes - 1. how do we content and impl on aria bandwagon

05:41:37 <duga> ... 2 - are there any gaps?

... 2 - are there any gaps?

05:42:18 <duga> gcapiel: will run through unordered laundry list

Gerardo Capiel: will run through unordered laundry list

05:42:25 <duga> ... then lets prioritize

... then lets prioritize

05:42:52 <duga> ... How do we broaden the range of perspectives in the group?

... How do we broaden the range of perspectives in the group?

05:43:32 <duga> ... need to cover all areas of assistive tech

... need to cover all areas of assistive tech

05:43:41 <duga> ... Would like input on who we should pull in

... Would like input on who we should pull in

05:43:58 <duga> ... Problem areas - SVG

... Problem areas - SVG

05:44:21 <duga> ... lots of features for assistive tech, not widely adopted

... lots of features for assistive tech, not widely adopted

05:44:36 <duga> ... May not support everything we need

... May not support everything we need

05:45:01 <duga> ... descr attribute can't have rich text

... descr attribute can't have rich text

05:45:29 <duga> ivan: What about html via foreign object?

Ivan Herman: What about html via foreign object?

05:45:38 <duga> gcapiel: not supported by screen readers

Gerardo Capiel: not supported by screen readers

05:45:45 <duga> ... need to drill down on use cases

... need to drill down on use cases

05:46:22 <duga> ... image descriptions, epub 2 limited to alt, epub 3 has no more support, 3.0.1 has Aria described-at

... image descriptions, epub 2 limited to alt, epub 3 has no more support, 3.0.1 has Aria described-at

05:46:39 <duga> ... no actual guidance/ best practices, or semantics of the document

... no actual guidance/ best practices, or semantics of the document

05:46:57 <duga> ... might want short description, long desc, etc

... might want short description, long desc, etc

05:47:23 <duga> ... These are new areas we need to define some semantics

... These are new areas we need to define some semantics

05:47:56 <duga> ivan: There are a11y problems with SVG - is this epub issue, or general svg

Ivan Herman: There are a11y problems with SVG - is this epub issue, or general svg

05:48:09 <duga> gcapiel: everywhere, but more pronounced in edu

Gerardo Capiel: everywhere, but more pronounced in edu

05:48:39 <duga> ... as it moves online, may be on the same footing. Older use cases may not account for modern uses in edu

... as it moves online, may be on the same footing. Older use cases may not account for modern uses in edu

05:49:07 <duga> ... for edu, in epub, since it is packaged it is harder to update once released

... for edu, in epub, since it is packaged it is harder to update once released

05:49:36 <duga> ... Need remediation tools to fix epub that is missing a11y features

... Need remediation tools to fix epub that is missing a11y features

05:49:52 <duga> ... may want to use annotations to implement that

... may want to use annotations to implement that

05:50:08 <duga> ... MathML fallbacks is particularly a problem in epub

... MathML fallbacks is particularly a problem in epub

05:50:42 <duga> ... hybrid epub 2/3 files use nav features but don't make content epub 3 (so, no MathML)

... hybrid epub 2/3 files use nav features but don't make content epub 3 (so, no MathML)

05:51:10 <duga> ... need to explore mathml fallbacks (alt text, images)

... need to explore mathml fallbacks (alt text, images)

05:51:16 <duga> ... none really good enough

... none really good enough

05:51:53 <duga> ... even with mathml, works well for visual representation, but not great for aural

... even with mathml, works well for visual representation, but not great for aural

05:52:35 <duga> ... some people want nemeth (??) braille conversion from mathml

... some people want nemeth (??) braille conversion from mathml

05:52:53 <duga> mgylling: nemeth braille may be US centric

Markus Gylling: nemeth braille may be US centric

05:53:41 <duga> jason: mathematics codes not standard

Jason White: mathematics codes not standard

05:54:25 <duga> ... mathml to braille conversion hard, need to convert to local braille math representation

... mathml to braille conversion hard, need to convert to local braille math representation

05:54:55 <duga> gcapiel: will a publisher really account for every math code? Need to make sure easilly adaptable

Gerardo Capiel: will a publisher really account for every math code? Need to make sure easilly adaptable

05:55:12 <duga> guest: Andrew Kirkpatrick
05:55:37 <duga> gcapiel: CSS braille not gone very far. True?

Gerardo Capiel: CSS braille not gone very far. True?

05:55:49 <ivan> s/Kirkpatrick/Kirkpatrick, Adobe/
05:55:59 <duga> Jason: Started end of the 90s, didn't go very far

Jason White: Started end of the 90s, didn't go very far

05:56:44 <duga> ... issues around grid for east Asian typ0graphy, lots of questions on if possible to make a braille for that

... issues around grid for east Asian typ0graphy, lots of questions on if possible to make a braille for that

05:57:19 <duga> ivan: East asian typography just picked up in general, so maybe it can be looked at again

Ivan Herman: East asian typography just picked up in general, so maybe it can be looked at again

05:57:41 <duga> mgylling: Following the CSS group, has not seen this in 12 years (css braille)

Markus Gylling: Following the CSS group, has not seen this in 12 years (css braille)

05:58:11 <duga> gcapiel: looking at runtime braille conversion

Gerardo Capiel: looking at runtime braille conversion

05:58:24 <duga> andrew: useful when we have haptic displays?

Andrew Kirkpatrick: useful when we have haptic displays?

05:58:45 <duga> jason: maybe now is the time

Jason White: maybe now is the time

05:59:33 <duga> mgylling: good time to bring it up, as epub is looking at alternate renditions. Might make sense to look at braille as alternate rendition

Markus Gylling: good time to bring it up, as epub is looking at alternate renditions. Might make sense to look at braille as alternate rendition

05:59:56 <duga> ... braille is so hard, might be hard to do in automated fashion, so hand crafted is good

... braille is so hard, might be hard to do in automated fashion, so hand crafted is good

06:00:06 <duga> andrew: and there are legal reasons in the US

Andrew Kirkpatrick: and there are legal reasons in the US

06:00:19 <duga> jason: And stuff like tables is really hard to automate

Jason White: And stuff like tables is really hard to automate

06:00:25 <duga> ... back to svg

... back to svg

06:00:39 <duga> ... aria support getting in to svg

... aria support getting in to svg

06:00:53 <duga> ... area states and roles can be placed in an svg document

... area states and roles can be placed in an svg document

06:01:13 <duga> ... no aria changes for svg, but could be worked on if there are specific use cases

... no aria changes for svg, but could be worked on if there are specific use cases

06:01:50 <duga> ... could associate aria role with part of svg document, then make accessible ui

... could associate aria role with part of svg document, then make accessible ui

06:02:02 <duga> ... don't know if anyone is working on it

... don't know if anyone is working on it

06:02:25 <duga> mgylling: new member of the group looking at it for STEM (may include inforgraphics)

Markus Gylling: new member of the group looking at it for STEM (may include inforgraphics)

06:02:43 <duga> ... this group could propose extensions to aria

... this group could propose extensions to aria

06:03:02 <duga> ... mark hakkenen is the new member

... mark Hakkinen is the new member

06:03:27 <duga> jason: knows mark and knows he is interested in aria extensions

Jason White: knows mark and knows he is interested in aria extensions

06:03:41 <duga> gcapiel: css speech - don't know what we need

Gerardo Capiel: css speech - don't know what we need

06:03:48 <duga> ... implementation lacking

... implementation lacking

06:03:56 <duga> jason: where are we on the spec?

Jason White: where are we on the spec?

06:04:08 <duga> ... was in 2, going to drop in 2.0.1

... was in 2, going to drop in 2.0.1

06:04:26 <duga> mgylling: was revived in epub by daniele weck

Markus Gylling: was revived in epub by daniele weck

06:04:40 <ivan> s/hakkenen/Hakkinen/
06:04:49 <duga> ... it is at least a WD in CSS, but has gone nowhere

... it is at least a WD in CSS, but has gone nowhere

06:04:57 <duga> ... is marked as at-risk by css wg

... is marked as at-risk by css wg

06:05:02 <duga> ivan: why?

Ivan Herman: why?

06:05:08 <duga> mgylling: no implementations?

Markus Gylling: no implementations?

06:05:48 <duga> jason: protocols and formats wg interested in people reviewing and getting engaged in what is happening in css

Jason White: protocols and formats wg interested in people reviewing and getting engaged in what is happening in css

06:05:57 <duga> ... could be a convergence of interest

... could be a convergence of interest

06:06:09 <duga> ... pay attention to and contribute to css

... pay attention to and contribute to css

06:06:26 <duga> andrew: they are trying to follow css, but it is huge and hard to follow

Andrew Kirkpatrick: they are trying to follow css, but it is huge and hard to follow

06:06:54 <duga> gcapiel: TV says this group should file a bug against chrome, since it is lacking css speech

Gerardo Capiel: TV says this group should file a bug against chrome, since it is lacking css speech

06:07:19 <duga> mgylling: there is also the issue of pronunciation dictionaries

Markus Gylling: there is also the issue of pronunciation dictionaries

06:07:36 <duga> ... there are specs on it, but they are not part of OWP

... there are specs on it, but they are not part of OWP

06:07:46 <duga> ... epub 3 references them, but there are no implementations

... epub 3 references them, but there are no implementations

06:08:17 <duga> ivan: haven't heard any epub specific issues

Ivan Herman: haven't heard any epub specific issues

06:08:28 <duga> ... all OWP issues that we happen to share

... all OWP issues that we happen to share

06:08:45 <duga> ... this group should concentrate on whether there are really epub specific problems

... this group should concentrate on whether there are really epub specific problems

06:09:14 <duga> .. we can't comment on css in general

.. we can't comment on css in general

06:09:31 <duga> mgylling: as gcapiel points out, some of these are more critical to dpub

Markus Gylling: as gcapiel points out, some of these are more critical to dpub

06:09:46 <duga> ... the evolution of the epub ecosystem depends on these things

... the evolution of the epub ecosystem depends on these things

06:10:32 <duga> duga: similar to hanging punctuation - more important for us than OWP in general

Brady Duga: similar to hanging punctuation - more important for us than OWP in general

06:10:44 <duga> ivan: are there features in the specs that are really missing?

Ivan Herman: are there features in the specs that are really missing?

06:11:00 <duga> ... lacking implementations are not something we can deal with

... lacking implementations are not something we can deal with

06:11:08 <duga> gcapiel: well, there is braille

Gerardo Capiel: well, there is braille

06:11:18 <duga> ivan: yes, css braille is one we should look at

Ivan Herman: yes, css braille is one we should look at

06:11:54 <duga> jason: a range of a11y issues haven't gotten enough attention

Jason White: a range of a11y issues haven't gotten enough attention

06:12:27 <duga> ... need to get people involved in standardization of these issues

... need to get people involved in standardization of these issues

06:12:53 <duga> ivan: if I take an ebook reader, there is a lot there not in a webpage (toc, etc)

Ivan Herman: if I take an ebook reader, there is a lot there not in a webpage (toc, etc)

06:13:20 <duga> ... are any of these a11y features like those ebook specific features?

... are any of these a11y features like those ebook specific features?

06:13:31 <duga> ... are any of these things ones only we care about?

... are any of these things ones only we care about?

06:13:42 <duga> gcapiel: biggest one is annotations piece

Gerardo Capiel: biggest one is annotations piece

06:14:01 <duga> gcapiel: braille, annotations, ...

Gerardo Capiel: braille, annotations, ...

06:14:53 <duga> gcapiel: So spec for synchronized reading, but there are implementations

Gerardo Capiel: So spec for synchronized reading, but there are implementations

06:15:12 <duga> andrew: word or line height seems like UA implementation detail

Andrew Kirkpatrick: word or line height seems like UA implementation detail

06:15:49 <duga> ivan: elevator pitch is look at publishing industry needs, look at w3c tech, see if there are any holes

Ivan Herman: elevator pitch is look at publishing industry needs, look at w3c tech, see if there are any holes

06:16:15 <duga> ... yeah, it  a ua guideline issue, but that means the guidelines are not sufficient

... yeah, it a ua guideline issue, but that means the guidelines are not sufficient

06:16:29 <duga> ... these are the things we should try to collect

... these are the things we should try to collect

06:16:40 <duga> gcapiel: in that vein, web speech is another one

Gerardo Capiel: in that vein, web speech is another one

06:16:53 <duga> ... not going to cover the other ones to keep it focused

... not going to cover the other ones to keep it focused

06:17:10 <duga> ... use cases focus - braille, annotation, maybe web speech

... use cases focus - braille, annotation, maybe web speech

06:17:29 <duga> mgylling: infographics and assessments are lacking

Markus Gylling: infographics and assessments are lacking

06:18:07 <duga> ivan: In an ideal world we should look at everything and see what is missing

Ivan Herman: In an ideal world we should look at everything and see what is missing

06:18:17 <duga> ... we have 2 or 3 items - are these all of them?

... we have 2 or 3 items - are these all of them?

06:18:25 <duga> gcapiel: probably not - need new members

Gerardo Capiel: probably not - need new members

06:18:35 <duga> ... wonder what high priority items are for pubs

... wonder what high priority items are for pubs

06:18:56 <duga> andrew: uag approaching last call

Andrew Kirkpatrick: uag approaching last call

06:19:07 <duga> ... atag in the same situation

... atag in the same situation

06:19:35 <duga> ... stuff like dictionary popups, could be in content, could be in UA

... stuff like dictionary popups, could be in content, could be in UA

06:19:45 <duga> ivan: seems like it is all UA at the moment

Ivan Herman: seems like it is all UA at the moment

06:20:09 <duga> jason: is there such a thing as a full html implementation of epub in JS?

Jason White: is there such a thing as a full html implementation of epub in JS?

06:20:12 <duga> mgylling: yes

Markus Gylling: yes

06:20:37 <duga> jason: that means all the OWP tech is in place

Jason White: that means all the OWP tech is in place

06:20:47 <duga> ... though may not be accessible

... though may not be accessible

06:21:35 <duga> ivan: shell around web UA, need to look at that shell not just browser

Ivan Herman: shell around web UA, need to look at that shell not just browser

06:22:08 <duga> ivan: do ereaders use canvas?

Ivan Herman: do ereaders use canvas?

06:22:25 <duga> mgylling: there is a japanese reader that is entirely implemented in canvas

Markus Gylling: there is a japanese reader that is entirely implemented in canvas

06:22:42 <duga> ... because of crappy typography

... because of crappy typography

06:23:00 <duga> ivan: canvas is an a11y nightmare

Ivan Herman: canvas is an a11y nightmare

06:23:09 <duga> jason: yeah, canvas is nasty for a11y

Jason White: yeah, canvas is nasty for a11y

06:23:27 <duga> andrew: there is work around shadow dom to make canvas accessible

Andrew Kirkpatrick: there is work around shadow dom to make canvas accessible

06:23:46 <duga> mgylling: in terms of the list of concrete perceived gaps, what is the list?

Markus Gylling: in terms of the list of concrete perceived gaps, what is the list?

06:24:14 <duga> gcapiel: assessments for aria, infographics, braille (css), web speech (UA)

Gerardo Capiel: assessments for aria, infographics, braille (css), web speech (UA)

06:24:28 <duga> jason: that includes css as well, right?

Jason White: that includes css as well, right?

06:24:37 <duga> gcapiel: Huh?

Gerardo Capiel: Huh?

06:24:45 <duga> jason: you referred to css speech

Jason White: you referred to css speech

06:24:58 <duga> mgylling: need pronunciation lexicons

Markus Gylling: need pronunciation lexicons

06:25:04 <duga> ivan: mathml?

Ivan Herman: mathml?

06:25:13 <duga> gcapiel: mathml semantics, yes

Gerardo Capiel: mathml semantics, yes

06:25:24 <duga> ... bridge gap between content and presentational mathml

... bridge gap between content and presentational mathml

06:25:29 <duga> mgylling: good luck with that

Markus Gylling: good luck with that

06:25:44 <duga> ... is there work on this?

... is there work on this?

06:25:50 <duga> gcapiel: I don't know

Gerardo Capiel: I don't know

06:26:06 <duga> mgylling: what is the state of this?

Markus Gylling: what is the state of this?

06:26:18 <duga> gcapiel: it's pretty easy to write crappy mathml

Gerardo Capiel: it's pretty easy to write crappy mathml

06:26:50 <duga> ivan: mathml is one of the issue that is more important to books than owp

Ivan Herman: mathml is one of the issue that is more important to books than owp

06:27:01 <duga> gcapiel: and there is the fallbacks issue

Gerardo Capiel: and there is the fallbacks issue

06:28:04 <duga> mgylling: do we care how we generate good mathml?

Markus Gylling: do we care how we generate good mathml?

06:28:31 <duga> andrew: need a tool to generate the good mathml and send it to TTS

Andrew Kirkpatrick: need a tool to generate the good mathml and send it to TTS

06:28:42 <duga> ... design science has some success

... design science has some success

06:28:54 <duga> gcapiel: but it has limited scope (IE only)

Gerardo Capiel: but it has limited scope (IE only)

06:29:30 <duga> jason: suppose there was a techniques document for constructing content mathml. Is that a good start?

Jason White: suppose there was a techniques document for constructing content mathml. Is that a good start?

06:29:45 <duga> ... or do we need to change mathml to get halfway?

... or do we need to change mathml to get halfway?

06:30:15 <duga> andrew: might accept it as an advisory technique, but there us still a big gap

Andrew Kirkpatrick: might accept it as an advisory technique, but there us still a big gap

06:30:54 <duga> jason: disagrees. wcag conformance requires relying on certain technologies

Jason White: disagrees. wcag conformance requires relying on certain technologies

06:32:11 <duga> <discussion descends into wcag details the scribe does not understand>

<discussion descends into wcag details the scribe does not understand>

06:33:39 <duga> jason: huge challenge to get eberything working across various APIs and OSes.

Jason White: huge challenge to get eberything working across various APIs and OSes.

06:35:06 <duga> ... either need to enable web tech to act as a11y tools, or we need to get everyone to implement all these specs

... either need to enable web tech to act as a11y tools, or we need to get everyone to implement all these specs

06:36:00 <duga> mgylling: in terms of the short list, how does it look?

Markus Gylling: in terms of the short list, how does it look?

06:36:10 <duga> gcapiel: will need help on assessments

Gerardo Capiel: will need help on assessments

06:36:19 <duga> mgylling: mark hakkinen to help with that

Markus Gylling: mark hakkinen to help with that

06:36:38 <duga> gcapiel: can look at infographics and web speech

Gerardo Capiel: can look at infographics and web speech

06:36:52 <duga> ... has some mathml knowledge, but may need more help

... has some mathml knowledge, but may need more help

06:37:13 <duga> ... need to go through guidelines and see what is missing

... need to go through guidelines and see what is missing

06:37:37 <duga> mgylling: when is ?? up as a draft?

Markus Gylling: when is UAAG up as a draft?

06:37:48 <duga> andrew: atag is soon or already happened.

Andrew Kirkpatrick: atag is soon or already happened.

06:38:00 <duga> ... before eoy, both of them

... before eoy, both of them

06:38:05 <duga> mgylling: LC?

Markus Gylling: LC?

06:38:13 <duga> andrew: one is CR, maybe

Andrew Kirkpatrick: one is CR, maybe

06:38:14 <ivan> s/??/UAAG/
06:38:21 <duga> mgylling: doesn't matter, we can adapt

Markus Gylling: doesn't matter, we can adapt

06:38:41 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

06:38:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

06:38:45 <duga> gcapiel: web API for braille support is a new one

Gerardo Capiel: web API for braille support is a new one

06:39:29 <duga> andrew: atag was CR on nov 7th

Andrew Kirkpatrick: atag was CR on nov 7th

06:39:42 <duga> jason: mathml is a significant issue

Jason White: mathml is a significant issue

06:39:56 <duga> ... makes content inaccessible without it

... makes content inaccessible without it

06:40:09 <duga> ivan: it is one of the most frequently mentioned issues

Ivan Herman: it is one of the most frequently mentioned issues

06:40:27 <duga> gcapiel: mathml barely comes up in a11y guidelines

Gerardo Capiel: mathml barely comes up in UAAG guidelines

06:40:41 <duga> andrew: uag was LC nov 7

Andrew Kirkpatrick: UAAG was LC nov 7

06:40:51 <mgylling> s/a11y/UAAG/
06:41:05 <ivan> s/uag/UAAG/
06:41:31 <duga> jason: what can the guidelines say at this point that will help?

Jason White: what can the guidelines say at this point that will help?

06:41:38 <duga> ... need new tech, not guidelines

... need new tech, not guidelines

06:42:01 <duga> ... whatever the solutions (OS, etc), we need tech

... whatever the solutions (OS, etc), we need tech

06:42:14 <duga> andrew: uag doesn't mention mathml explicitly

Andrew Kirkpatrick: uag doesn't mention mathml explicitly

06:43:29 <duga> jason: need the minutes

Jason White: need the minutes

06:43:39 <duga> action: ivan to get jason the URI for the minutes

ACTION: Ivan to get jason the URI for the minutes

06:43:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Get jason the uri for the minutes [on Ivan Herman - due 2013-11-19].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-11 - Get jason the uri for the minutes [on Ivan Herman - due 2013-11-19].

06:45:28 <mgylling> scribe: Sharad
06:45:48 <mgylling> topic: Testing (with Tobie Langel)

5. Testing (with Tobie Langel)

06:47:09 <ivan> Guest: Tobie (tobie) Langel, W3C
06:47:11 <tobie> https://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1112-testtwf/

Tobie Langel: https://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1112-testtwf/

06:48:43 <Sharad> tobie: w3c is so far testing spec is implementable, less you test, easy to move spec forward

Tobie Langel: w3c is so far testing spec is implementable, less you test, easy to move spec forward

06:49:57 <Sharad> ... TV industry is getting involved with HTML5, mobil & publishing industry is also moving towards HTML5

... TV industry is getting involved with HTML5, mobil & publishing industry is also moving towards HTML5

06:51:16 <Sharad> ... lots of new spec, interactions with new technology thus lots of issues. new effort started to improve testing

... lots of new spec, interactions with new technology thus lots of issues. new effort started to improve testing

06:52:13 <Sharad> ... scope is large, # of test is missing, approx 25 - 30 Man years of engineering needed

... scope is large, # of test is missing, approx 25 - 30 Man years of engineering needed

06:53:17 <Sharad> ... how do I test, how to run them, how to gather results. happy to answerrelated questions

... how do I test, how to run them, how to gather results. happy to answerrelated questions

06:54:34 <Sharad> mgylling: like to know architecture, couple of open source systems available. testing in epub is strictly limited

Markus Gylling: like to know architecture, couple of open source systems available. testing in epub is strictly limited

06:56:48 <Sharad> tobie: 30 - 40 specs for mobile, TV inudstry. 30 o them may be required for publishign industry

Tobie Langel: 30 - 40 specs for mobile, TV inudstry. 30 o them may be required for publishign industry

06:58:02 <Sharad> ... it will be useful for everyone to have implement these specs

... it will be useful for everyone to have implement these specs

06:59:24 <Sharad> ... missing is solid base that developers can use acrossdevices

... missing is solid base that developers can use acrossdevices

07:01:20 <Sharad> ... we have we have a # of different kinds of tests, most common is JAVA tests

... we have we have a # of different kinds of tests, most common is JAVA tests

07:02:16 <Sharad> ... 2bd kind if test are reference test, these ar layout tests

... 2bd kind if test are reference test, these ar layout tests

07:05:24 <duga> IDL

Brady Duga: IDL

07:06:18 <Sharad> ... tobie:  special kind of tests: IDL test. automatically generate tests, also called signature testing

... tobie: special kind of tests: IDL test. automatically generate tests, also called signature testing

07:06:57 <Sharad> .. web driver tests; completely mimic a user, navigate to a page, take screen, itake nput

.. web driver tests; completely mimic a user, navigate to a page, take screen, itake nput

07:07:30 <Sharad> get rid of manual test, replace them by web driver tests

get rid of manual test, replace them by web driver tests

07:09:03 <Sharad> ... web drivers don't do testing outside of web viewport;

... web drivers don't do testing outside of web viewport;

07:15:07 <Sharad> ivan: is the implementation part of webkit or part of web core?

Ivan Herman: is the implementation part of webkit or part of web core?

07:20:11 <Sharad> tobie: i am not rigth person to ask technical details

Tobie Langel: i am not rigth person to ask technical details

07:22:52 <Sharad> ivan: publisher will want produce typography nicety

Ivan Herman: publisher will want produce typography nicety

07:23:22 <Sharad> duga: never have hanging puctuation; comma appearing outside of line

Brady Duga: never have hanging puctuation; comma appearing outside of line

07:25:29 <Sharad> ivan: 2 apge side by side, they would not be equalize, today does not exist in CSS

Ivan Herman: 2 apge side by side, they would not be equalize, today does not exist in CSS

07:29:06 <Sharad> ivan: typography tests need to be checked by human. running test harness automatically wil lbe major help

Ivan Herman: typography tests need to be checked by human. running test harness automatically wil lbe major help

07:30:58 <Sharad> tobie: cost of test automation will be sometimes more than benefits

Tobie Langel: cost of test automation will be sometimes more than benefits

07:32:08 <Sharad> mgylling: talk to Readium foundation, developing opensource reading system

Markus Gylling: talk to Readium foundation, developing opensource reading system

07:33:07 <Sharad> .. do we good online intro to webdriver?

.. do we good online intro to webdriver?

07:33:14 <Sharad> tobie: no

Tobie Langel: no

07:33:46 <Sharad> ... nothing about driver structure

... nothing about driver structure

07:34:02 <Sharad> ivan: can look at web code to understand?

Ivan Herman: can look at web code to understand?

07:35:36 <Sharad> no funds to suport this effort, this is going to be another issue

no funds to suport this effort, this is going to be another issue

07:37:28 <Sharad> ivan: how is it related to validation project?

Ivan Herman: how is it related to validation project?

07:37:42 <Sharad> tobie: completely different scope

Tobie Langel: completely different scope

07:42:27 <Sharad> tobie: looking for options to scale

Tobie Langel: looking for options to scale

07:44:39 <Sharad> ivan: start the process here and then show readium

Ivan Herman: start the process here and then show readium

07:46:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

07:46:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

08:15:13 <dauwhe_> Bert and I have proposed a breakout session for tomorrow about paged media etc.: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas#Towards_paginated_layouts_for_.28e-.29books_using_Web_technologies

Dave Cramer: Bert and I have proposed a breakout session for tomorrow about paged media etc.: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas#Towards_paginated_layouts_for_.28e-.29books_using_Web_technologies

08:31:49 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes

08:37:17 <dauwhe_> Topic: backgrounds and borders
08:37:39 <dauwhe_> fantasai: issue that backgrounds and borders defines in what order short orders are extended

ADJOURNED for today