IRC log of css on 2013-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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16:33:28 [glazou]
glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Dec/0200.html
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16:33:55 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:33:55 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
16:34:01 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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scribenick: dael
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:56:36 [Zakim]
+dael
16:56:51 [Zakim]
+??P3
16:56:55 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
16:56:56 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:57:02 [Zakim]
+Stearns
16:57:27 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
16:57:27 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
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+dauwhe
16:58:21 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:58:36 [krit]
Zakim, P6 is me
16:58:36 [Zakim]
sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
16:58:40 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P6 is krit
16:58:40 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
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16:58:57 [krit]
glazou: thanks
16:59:04 [glazou]
np
16:59:25 [Zakim]
+SylvaIng
16:59:35 [Zakim]
+plinss
17:00:36 [Zakim]
+??P40
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Zakim, P40 is me
17:00:42 [Zakim]
sorry, antonp, I do not recognize a party named 'P40'
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+??P43
17:00:58 [Zakim]
+Plh
17:01:07 [SimonSapin]
Zakim, ??P43 is me
17:01:08 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
17:01:10 [antonp]
Zakim, ??P40 is me
17:01:13 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
17:01:17 [SimonSapin]
… I think
17:01:18 [Zakim]
-Stearns
17:01:21 [Zakim]
+smfr
17:01:59 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
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+[IPcaller]
17:02:39 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
17:02:52 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
17:03:05 [Zakim]
+cabanier
17:03:29 [Zakim]
+Bert
17:03:32 [Zakim]
+Glenn
17:03:37 [Zakim]
+Stearns
17:03:51 [dael_]
I hope that I'm not cursed to connectivity issues today. I'll yell if I drop...again.
17:04:37 [Zakim]
+??P66
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17:05:38 [dael_]
plinss Let's get started
17:05:45 [dael_]
plh: Any additional items?
17:05:55 [dael_]
s/plh/pliniss
17:06:11 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
17:06:13 [dael_]
???: Please put your name for registration
17:06:21 [dael_]
...: We need to issue badges so you can get in
17:06:23 [plh]
s/???/Sylvain/
17:06:30 [dael_]
...: The earlier a complete count the better
17:06:42 [dael_]
plinss: Good time to make travel arrangements
17:06:47 [dael_]
Tpoic: Sept F2F
17:06:49 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
17:06:49 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
17:06:57 [dael_]
s/tpoic/topic
17:07:04 [Zakim]
+dbaron
17:07:12 [dael_]
SteveZ: I believe the AB meeting is the 16-17th Sept
17:07:21 [dael_]
SteveZ: I think Bert was offering to host
17:07:35 [dael_]
SteveZ: Optimially if it was near those dates I would only need one trip
17:07:41 [Zakim]
+fantasai
17:07:52 [dael_]
bert: I would prefer after
17:07:57 [glazou]
s/bert/krit
17:07:59 [dael_]
plinss: Any other pref?
17:08:04 [glazou]
glazou: me too
17:08:20 [dael_]
sylvaing: With TPAC after, it was inconvenient that summer, autumn, and winter were close
17:08:33 [Bert]
(TPAC is Oct 27-31)
17:08:33 [dael_]
plinss: That is true
17:08:44 [dael_]
plinss: Week of 22nd would be 4 weeks before
17:08:54 [dael_]
SteveZ: If we did the week before that would be okay
17:09:06 [krit]
s/SteveZ/krit/
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17:09:13 [dael_]
SteveZ: That's fine with me
17:09:21 [dael_]
plinss: Bert, any these dates a problem?
17:09:51 [dael_]
???: TPAC is on Halloween so much be Oct
17:09:56 [Zakim]
+[Bloomberg]
17:09:58 [dael_]
plinss: So week of 8-10?
17:10:04 [krit]
s/???/krit/
17:10:09 [dael_]
plinss: That work for everyone?
17:10:20 [dael_]
ChrisL: That's fine for me
17:10:33 [dael_]
krit: If we move further from TPAC it's better
17:10:47 [dael_]
plinss: Okay, unless we hear other complaints soon, let's call it Sept 8-10
17:10:55 [krit]
s/krit/florian/
17:10:58 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
17:10:58 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
17:11:01 [dael_]
Topics: Compositing and Blending
17:11:17 [dael_]
cabanier: I got comments from James Robinson
17:11:27 [dael_]
..: He's asking for something that doesn't require spec changes
17:11:35 [dael_]
...: Should I wait another week to ask for CR?
17:11:41 [dael_]
...: Or does that not stop it?
17:11:49 [dael_]
???: It's obviously a judgement call.
17:12:01 [dael_]
...: If it's ongoing to produce sig. changes you should wait
17:12:08 [dael_]
...: If not you can push it to later
17:12:14 [dael_]
cabanier: He's asking for something in the spec
17:12:20 [dael_]
???: It's just a clarification your' fine
17:12:29 [dael_]
cabanier: put in disp. of commments?
17:12:32 [dael_]
???: Yes
17:12:35 [plinss]
s/???/ChrisL/
17:12:43 [dael_]
ChrisL: Is there something we can look at?
17:12:48 [dael_]
cabanier: Yes, I'll paste in IRC
17:12:54 [cabanier]
doc: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/issues-lc-2013.html
17:13:18 [dael_]
ChrisL: One comment, introduce some classes there with colors
17:13:32 [dael_]
...: So someone can see green with agreement etc. That makes it easier
17:13:57 [dael_]
...: You should distinguish between where everyone agreed and everyone talked about it and the person is happy even if they didn't get want the wanted
17:13:57 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
17:14:02 [dael_]
cabanier: Okay.
17:14:08 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/issuegen.pl
17:14:12 [dael_]
fantasai: Above is an example of a color codded one
17:14:23 [dael_]
fantasai: And 2nd is a template to generate from text
17:14:33 [dael_]
cabanier: That's handy
17:14:47 [dael_]
fantasai: If you do this is spits out instructions and it'll create the HTML
17:14:57 [dael_]
...: There's others you can use, this is the one I wrote
17:15:09 [dael_]
cabanier: I was surprised when Cameron told me I had to register
17:15:20 [dael_]
cabanier: I'll update.
17:15:27 [dbaron]
I'm a little concerned about the number of parts of the spec marked non-normative.
17:15:29 [dael_]
...: Should I wait for CR is it it fine?
17:15:41 [dael_]
plinss: AS long as it's updated for the spec call I think it's okay
17:15:48 [dael_]
cabanier: The comments from James will be in there
17:16:13 [dael_]
???: I find the spec confusing b/c it has a lot but doesn't provide new properties
17:16:25 [dael_]
...: for example it has a section on knockout groups, but it doesn't have examples
17:16:31 [krit]
s/???/smfr/
17:16:40 [dael_]
...: It's very confusing because it has a long section on theroery and I don't know why it's relevent
17:16:48 [dael_]
cabanier: It has a lot of normative text
17:17:00 [dbaron]
There are a bunch of references to a 'knockout' keyword that's no longer in the draft
17:17:10 [dael_]
smfr: I think tech information is fine, they just want to know if they can use it now, use it later, what's being developed
17:17:18 [dael_]
...: It's explaining what it's for
17:17:31 [dael_]
???: Does this need knock-out groups?
17:17:41 [dael_]
???: There isn't an SVG for this, right?
17:17:48 [dael_]
cabanier: I don't think anyone impl that
17:17:48 [krit]
s/???/smfr/
17:17:55 [dael_]
smfr: This loks theroretical
17:18:01 [dael_]
...: I think it should stay
17:18:07 [dauwhe]
s/theroery/theory/
17:18:15 [dauwhe]
s/loks/looks/
17:18:19 [dael_]
dirk: I don't think so. I think there's a bunch of ref. to something that as there before.
17:18:27 [dael_]
smfr: Is that for level 2?
17:18:39 [krit]
s/dirk/dbaron/
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17:18:49 [dael_]
smfr: knock-out we've tried for some time, but if it's to level 2 that's okay
17:19:06 [dael_]
???: I thiink there's 2 options. 1 we remove knock-out. 2 we make clear which isn't covered
17:19:16 [krit]
s/???/sgalineau/
17:19:19 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:19:22 [dael_]
cabanier: I think we can remove things not covered. I think it can be done in CR
17:19:37 [dael_]
cabanier: That 2nd section is informative about how it could
17:19:52 [dael_]
smfr: We're removing things not covered so it's confucsing
17:20:02 [dael_]
???: And having a long normative section is dangerious
17:20:09 [dael_]
dirk: I think it's not clear what's non-normative
17:20:13 [krit]
s/???/smfr/
17:20:15 [krit]
s/dirk/dbaron/
17:20:28 [dael_]
...: Does this section mean what is non normative. Like is 5 non-normative, but 5.1 isn't?
17:20:36 [dael_]
cabanier: I should be in the header
17:20:42 [dael_]
smfr: It should be an appendix
17:20:56 [smfr]
s/smfr/sgalineau
17:21:03 [dael_]
dirk: To be clear sections 5, 8, 9, 10 and marked as normative
17:21:05 [krit]
s/dirk/dbaron/
17:21:26 [dael_]
dbaron: Does that mean section s 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 don't define anything but property syntax
17:21:27 [dbaron]
5,6,7,8,9,10
17:21:47 [dael_]
cabanier: We discussed this and at the time only to prop. were supposed to be marked as non-normative
17:21:52 [dael_]
dbaron: Who told you that?
17:21:58 [dael_]
cabanier: I don't remember. I can look.
17:22:15 [dael_]
plinss: Unless there's a good reason, that's the sort of thing that should be normative
17:22:32 [dael_]
...: You shouldn't have someone impl a blend mode and get diff results
17:22:48 [dael_]
smfr: sounds like that should change in the spec. It's important
17:23:00 [dael_]
plinss: Are we in agreement those sections should be normative?
17:23:13 [dael_]
???: We should make it normative in a later version
17:23:29 [dael_]
plinss: I think we agreeed earlier that items not referenced should move to the next level
17:23:45 [dael_]
plinss: We should shift text from not normative to normative before CR
17:24:03 [dael_]
plinss: Do we want to see these changes and then revist going to CR or resolve and see it later
17:24:25 [dael_]
smfr: I think it was clear, but some people found it confusing so should we wait to see if this makes it less confusing?
17:24:39 [dael_]
???: This is something we're going to remove is CR, so why not do it now?
17:24:45 [dael_]
cabanier: We can do it next week
17:24:54 [dael_]
???: OTherwise it looks like we're removing for no reason
17:25:08 [dael_]
cabanier: I wanted to be less confusing in LC. I think I'll make the changes and disc. next week
17:25:22 [dael_]
plinss: Agreed. The only problem is editing functionality
17:25:30 [dael_]
???: We're not changing any behaviour
17:25:44 [dael_]
plinss: So you have your orders for changes and we'll revist next week
17:25:50 [dael_]
Topic: Masking to CR
17:25:58 [dael_]
krit: I got comments a few hours ago
17:26:12 [dael_]
krit: I got fantasai comments
17:26:28 [dael_]
...: Her comments will delay CR, so I'd like to discuss on ML
17:26:38 [dael_]
...: Since her requests are changing behaviour and names
17:26:45 [dael_]
plinss: So you want that before CR?
17:26:47 [dael_]
krit: Yes
17:26:55 [dael_]
plinss: Let us know when you want to revisit
17:27:02 [dael_]
Topic: WebVTT
17:27:14 [dael_]
plinss: Everyone should have reviewed for feedback
17:27:29 [dael_]
dirk: I promised to review
17:27:34 [dbaron]
s/dirk/Bert/
17:27:35 [dael_]
krit: I have some comments
17:27:41 [dael_]
Sorry!
17:27:43 [dbaron]
s/krit/ChrisL/
17:27:50 [ChrisL]
I have some too, dirk go first
17:28:00 [dael_]
plinss: I heard one person ask for time and one person had feedback
17:28:04 [dael_]
ChrisL: I had a little
17:28:43 [dael]
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17:28:49 [ChrisL]
WebVTT specifies certain proerties must be set to particular values,
17:28:50 [dael]
...: There's no object model and if there's and nonsense or disllowed and I'll tell if they're applied or not
17:28:50 [ChrisL]
and lists the properties that must apply (the others must be ignored).
17:28:57 [ChrisL]
Is it correct that there is no DOM interface to get at the styling
17:28:58 [ChrisL]
information, so the only way to see what properties are applied is if
17:28:58 [ChrisL]
they have a particular visual effect?
17:29:10 [dael]
plinss: Do you have a suggestion for a better way to phrase that?
17:29:18 [dael]
ChrisL: I think I'm looking for a change in words
17:29:25 [dael]
...: Saying you can't do these things is odd
17:29:32 [dael]
...: Better to say should not instead of must not
17:29:41 [dael]
...: If you say must you have to test and there's no way to do that
17:29:51 [dael]
plinss: Okay, any other feedback?
17:30:00 [dael]
plinss: I hear folks need more time to review
17:30:14 [dael]
???: I could do with more time for reading it
17:30:23 [dael]
ChrisL: I have a follow-up
17:30:46 [dael]
...: If we want tests for this, currently we can do SVG and HTML test, can we integrate WebVTT?
17:30:56 [dael]
plinss: I don't understand how it would be sig. different
17:31:00 [dael]
ChrisL: I was asking you
17:31:04 [ChrisL]
ok cool
17:31:04 [dael]
plinss: I think it's fine
17:31:23 [dael]
???: Would you be able to share the location again in IRC?
17:31:27 [ChrisL]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/text-tracks/raw-file/default/webvtt/Overview.html
17:31:41 [israelh]
s/???/israelh
17:31:55 [dael]
glenn: Just as a not, VTT is a community group and hasn't enetered into W3C rec track
17:32:07 [dael]
...: also doesn't have a ???? status which is req. before rec track
17:32:17 [dael]
....: Current plan to to take it through the ??? WG
17:32:30 [dael]
...: I wanted to mention that commments might be a bit premature.
17:32:46 [dael]
ChrisL: I understood, but I think it's good they asked for feedback earlier
17:32:54 [dael]
...: I think they should be commended for asking early
17:32:57 [dael]
plinss: Agreed
17:33:10 [dael]
plinss: Not hearing anything else, but that concerns me
17:33:22 [dael]
plinss: Do people need more time or are they okay?
17:33:35 [dael]
dbaron: I think where they are would add us to add more comments as they find them
17:33:47 [dael]
plinss: I just want to make sure it happens.
17:33:58 [SimonSapin]
s/dbaron/SteveZ/
17:34:06 [dael]
plinss: Only question is, all we have is Chris. Do you want to send that yourself?
17:34:29 [dael]
ChrisL: Yes. I think it would be good to have something from the chairs saying there may be more later. Tell them they're good for asking.
17:34:34 [dael]
plinss: Yes
17:34:41 [dael]
Topic: will-animate proposal
17:34:54 [dael]
plinss: Anyone want to speak about it?
17:35:09 [dael]
smfr: I can summerize
17:35:35 [dael]
smfr: as far as I can understand, it will allow authors to say later they'll change something with an annimation
17:35:54 [dael]
smfr: this is a trigger to annow user agent to prepare for an animation to start
17:36:10 [dael]
...: the engine may create something ahead to allow it to work more smoothly
17:36:10 [Zakim]
-??P66
17:36:29 [dael]
...: This is exposing impl detail and they may change in future to make this unnecessary or confusing
17:36:48 [dael]
...: I'm not a big fan and I think this could be mis-used to force UI to allocation too much memory
17:36:55 [SimonSapin]
q+ stacking contexts
17:37:02 [glazou]
LOL
17:37:02 [dael]
dbaron: There were some design details to avoid exposing too much detail
17:37:02 [SimonSapin]
well
17:37:26 [dael]
dbaron: That said one of the problesms is there are a bunch of properties where everything by default causes stacking
17:37:42 [dael]
....: There's a desire for will-animate to cause that even without a new value
17:37:59 [dael]
sylvaing: I want to clarify that this proposale works with stacking behaviour
17:38:11 [dael]
smfr: right, and authors cna create stacking now
17:38:12 [glazou]
s/sylvaing/SimonSapin
17:38:23 [dael]
...: I don't see the need wfor will-animate to do that
17:38:39 [dael]
...: Is the desire so that later on you create less work for the UI to di?
17:38:41 [dael]
dbaron: Yes
17:38:52 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin: this proposal creates stacking contexts, so it’s not just about performance but also affects behavior
17:38:53 [dael]
smfr: In webkit creating a stacking context isn't a lot of work
17:39:13 [dael]
dbaron: The work is around creating layizing. When it's not stacking it hast o layerize differently
17:39:20 [dael]
smfr: I think that's different between UI
17:39:32 [Zakim]
+??P9
17:39:38 [dael]
dbaron: I don't think it does. I think it has to do things in a way that makes it inherently more expencive
17:39:45 [tantek]
Zakim, ??P9 is tantek
17:39:45 [Zakim]
+tantek; got it
17:39:50 [tantek]
Zakim, mute tantek
17:39:50 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
17:39:52 [plinss]
ack
17:40:16 [dael]
plinss: I also have a lot of concerns for similar reasons
17:40:25 [dael]
...: It's the wrong place of optimization
17:40:48 [dael]
...: What concerns me is adding the stacking. It may be useful because you don't want layering to change with animation, but I'm not seeing that happening
17:41:03 [dael]
dbaron: I thinkit's worth talking about why we want this
17:41:12 [dael]
...: There are cases an author knows they want to animate
17:41:14 [Rossen_]
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17:41:18 [dael]
...: ex touch interface
17:41:28 [dael]
...: When the user touches they know it'll move
17:41:36 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
17:41:37 [dael]
...: It's important responce is instant
17:41:45 [Rossen_]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:41:45 [Zakim]
+Rossen_; got it
17:41:49 [dael]
...: when we're talking about trying to do touch UI on mobile hardware
17:42:04 [dael]
...: The cost of painting into a layer when it wasn't before is expencive
17:42:16 [dael]
...: ant the cost of optimistically using lots of layers is expencive
17:42:21 [dael]
...: This is a hint
17:42:25 [rhauck1]
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17:42:32 [dael]
...: Other then change ins tacking, it doesn't have normative req.
17:42:47 [dael]
...: WE haven't been able to get UI with touch to be resoncive without this.
17:42:58 [dael]
...: We need some way to address it and this is the least-bad so far
17:43:15 [dael]
plinss: My concern is that this is changing behvaiour, even though you say it's a hint.
17:43:31 [dael]
dbaron: That's the problem we wanted a hint and this is what we had
17:43:39 [dael]
...: Authors are doing worse things right now
17:43:48 [dael]
...: They set translate in advance
17:44:01 [dael]
...: I think having something more explicite is better thehn widespread use of hints
17:44:14 [dael]
...: Such as things are faster in webkit if you stick translate Z
17:44:19 [dael]
....: That's the world we're in
17:44:36 [dael]
???: Should we create something meant to be a hint, or should we create a prop. that's also useful
17:44:43 [dael]
smfr: that seems better to me
17:44:46 [plinss]
s/???/florian/
17:44:47 [glazou]
s/???/ChrisL
17:44:53 [glazou]
er
17:44:54 [sgalineau]
lol
17:45:00 [dael]
dbaron: That does create a hint, but it creates seperate ways for spe. properties
17:45:01 [glazou]
s/???/florian
17:45:02 [tantek]
s/???/ChrisL
17:45:08 [sgalineau]
LOL
17:45:09 [glazou]
s/smfr/ChrisL
17:45:19 [glazou]
anyway :-)
17:45:29 [dael]
plinss: I do agree that is the desire is to create stacking context a prop is better
17:45:45 [dael]
dbaron: The desire isn't to create stacking context, the desire is anim. to pref better
17:45:58 [dael]
ChrisL: I'm agreeing with dbaron.
17:46:06 [tantek]
s/ChrisL/smfr
17:46:19 [dael]
ChrisL: I also thinkt hat just creating stacking isn't enough for us to eff. run an animation without a hickup
17:46:25 [tantek]
s/ChrisL/smfr
17:46:28 [dael]
dbaron: It's not enough, but it's a good side effect
17:46:33 [dael]
smfr: I think that's fine
17:46:45 [dael]
plinss: does it always create stacking, or only with some prop.
17:46:48 [dael]
dbaron: I don't know
17:47:13 [dael]
plinss: I'd like to see stacking be a mod of another prop and see if it needs to be explicit.
17:47:21 [dael]
...: I'd liket og et rid of the hacks.
17:47:32 [dael]
dbaron: I think req. it's two prop makes people set two prop
17:47:56 [dael]
???: on the other hand, with everything that's stacking today you'd be giving the illusion that you'll be able to put everything in context with a sep prop.
17:48:00 [tantek]
s/???/Rossen
17:48:17 [dael]
??: So everything that creates a stacking context with auto meanst hat auto just is computed as force.
17:48:31 [dael]
??: You could do that without an opportunity for turning it off.
17:48:38 [glazou]
s/??/florian
17:48:40 [tantek]
s/??/Florian
17:48:40 [tantek]
s/??/Florian
17:48:57 [dael]
?: Like Simon pointed out, we're trying to find something animatable in it's proper context.
17:49:01 [tantek]
s/?/Rossen
17:49:12 [dael]
Rossen: I particularly favor a sep. property instead of stacking
17:49:32 [dael]
plinss: My otehr q is isn't there some way to look ahead through existing style and guess.
17:49:44 [tantek]
"you never know what someone is going to do in Javascript" [seriously]
17:49:49 [tantek]
(smfr)
17:49:52 [dael]
...: If the issue is we're looking for something in JS it's an API not a property
17:50:06 [dael]
???: The animation is run through CSS not API
17:50:12 [tantek]
s/???/Rossen
17:50:18 [dael]
??: That's odd. it it's in CSS we should figure it out.
17:50:21 [tantek]
s/??/Florian
17:50:31 [dael]
...: If it's b/c there's JS in the middle we should address that
17:50:43 [dael]
smfr: If you're using CSS we should fix it
17:51:00 [dael]
dbaron: the other prob is that if authors want to rely on this they want to know huristics
17:51:15 [dael]
...: I think it's good to give authors reliablity in what perf. they can expect
17:51:21 [dael]
...: and not say it's undefined
17:51:32 [dael]
florian: It still feels like this is close to a prop.
17:51:42 [dael]
...: It says do what I say, but factor
17:51:46 [tantek]
s/factor/faster
17:51:57 [dael]
ChrisL: It's saying prepare yourself for a future CSS prop change
17:52:06 [tantek]
s/ChrisL/smfr
17:52:17 [dael]
Rossen_: Does anyone know if animation spec is trying to address this?
17:52:26 [dael]
smfr: I don' think so
17:52:29 [florian]
s/it says do/that says do/
17:53:02 [dael]
smfr: I'm happy for this to conitue if someone on ML summerizes current proposal state
17:53:04 [dbaron]
s/animation spec/web animations spec/
17:53:10 [dael]
plinss: Can someone write up summary?
17:53:16 [dael]
...: post it to ML?
17:53:24 [dael]
dbaron: I can poke someone and see if they can
17:53:35 [dael]
plinss: Then disc. will cont on ML
17:53:45 [dael]
Topic: interpolate() proposal
17:53:51 [glazou]
she is not here
17:53:52 [dael]
plinss: lea had a proposal.
17:54:04 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
17:54:04 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
17:54:06 [dael]
plinss: None of the part are here. Should we defer?
17:54:23 [dael]
Topic: :sorted pseudoclass
17:54:36 [dael]
plinss: This was from Tab and we can discuss here
17:54:48 [dael]
...: add a psudeoclass adding HTML sorting model
17:54:54 [dael]
...: Anyone have through?
17:55:07 [dael]
glazou: I made a comment on ML bc I think current prop. is not enough
17:55:15 [tantek]
would this also apply to <ol reversed> ?
17:55:15 [dael]
...: It doesn't deal with columns that you don't sorty
17:55:34 [dael]
...: If you haev a list of items with an index and you want index to remained ordered, it won't deal with that
17:55:48 [dael]
...: I think it's a good start to match HTML5 and we need toe xtend to be complete
17:56:07 [dael]
...: It's something web authors are doing more and more. We need a way to present to the viewer
17:56:10 [tantek]
q+ to ask about applying to <ol reversed> as well as tables
17:56:24 [sgalineau]
doesn't understand; if you leave your table as-is then it can't be re-sorted, right?
17:56:25 [dael]
plinss: My q is that we need to extend sorting model of HTML, not CSS
17:56:36 [dael]
...: Are you saying CSS should override the display of the table.
17:56:53 [dael]
glazou: The columns sorted with select a column if it's sorted in another place
17:57:00 [dael]
...: We can't select if it's not sorted
17:57:07 [dael]
plinss: Wouldn't that be column-not sorted
17:57:07 [tantek]
:sorted does not alter the sorting of the table/column/list
17:57:14 [dael]
glazou: That's not possible
17:57:21 [dael]
...: It's a bit verbose
17:57:33 [dael]
plinss: The proposal was just about if it's sorted or not
17:57:50 [dael]
glazou: I had anotehr comment about the arguement that is for determaning only in index
17:57:56 [dael]
...: may way to extend to range
17:57:58 [plinss]
:not(:sorted)
17:58:15 [dael]
...: If you sort on multiple columns you may want to sort all without selecting individual
17:58:25 [dael]
...: Other then that I think we should cont. It's needed
17:58:33 [dael]
plinss: Any obj to adding this to selectors 4?
17:58:41 [dael]
bert: You would want to know if table is sorted
17:58:43 [tantek]
zakim, unmute tantek
17:58:43 [Zakim]
tantek should no longer be muted
17:58:58 [dael]
...: You can do that with subject slector, but may be easier to have psudo on the who table
17:59:02 [dael]
s/who.whole
17:59:06 [dael]
s/who/whole
17:59:38 [dael]
glenn: the only comment is I had was should that aplly to tables too, other then normally ordered?
17:59:45 [tantek]
s/glenn/tantek
17:59:47 [dael]
plinss: That's an interesting point. I don't see why not
17:59:58 [tantek]
s/apply to tables too/apply to ordered lists too
18:00:04 [dael]
RESOLVED: Add :sorted to selectors 4
18:00:11 [Zakim]
-smfr
18:00:12 [Zakim]
-Glenn
18:00:12 [glazou]
dael, action on me
18:00:13 [Zakim]
-Plh
18:00:14 [dael]
plinss: Thank you everyone
18:00:15 [Zakim]
-[Bloomberg]
18:00:16 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
18:00:18 [Zakim]
-dbaron
18:00:18 [Zakim]
-cabanier
18:00:19 [Zakim]
-SylvaIng
18:00:19 [Zakim]
-glazou
18:00:20 [Zakim]
-krit
18:00:21 [Zakim]
-dauwhe
18:00:22 [Zakim]
-Bert
18:00:22 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
18:00:23 [Zakim]
-Stearns
18:00:23 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:00:23 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:00:24 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
18:00:24 [Zakim]
-tantek
18:00:24 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
18:00:26 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
18:00:26 [Zakim]
-antonp
18:00:27 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
18:00:30 [dael]
Action: glazou add :sorted to selectors 4
18:00:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-602 - Add :sorted to selectors 4 [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-12-18].
18:00:36 [Zakim]
-dael
18:00:38 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:00:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were dael, glazou, Stearns, dauwhe, krit, SylvaIng, plinss, Plh, SimonSapin, antonp, smfr, SteveZ, florian, cabanier, Bert, Glenn, ChrisL, dbaron, fantasai, [Bloomberg],
18:00:38 [Zakim]
... tantek, Rossen_
18:00:39 [glazou]
thanks dael
18:00:43 [florian]
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18:00:48 [tantek]
thanks dael!
18:00:59 [dael]
thanks everyone!
18:01:09 [dael]
I'll learn everyone's voice one day ^-^
18:01:11 [tantek]
q-
18:01:13 [Rossen_]
Thank you Dael!
18:01:18 [glazou]
dael, where are you based ?
18:01:26 [glazou]
d'oh
18:01:33 [tantek]
apparently not in irc ;)
18:01:36 [glazou]
eheh
18:01:59 [tantek]
hey whatever happened to ::selection?
18:04:38 [Bert]
::selection proved difficult to define. But now that we are working on generic region styling, it should probably be added there, i.e., in the Regions spec.
18:04:55 [tantek]
ugh that sounds a bit awkward
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18:05:12 [tantek]
it involves a lot of user interaction more than layout
18:05:26 [sgalineau]
yes, not sure what it has to do with Regions.
18:05:44 [Bert]
Yes, but the difficult part was defining the inheritance of style, and that is what Regions is about.
18:07:50 [astearns]
Bert: are you talking about adding a selector after ::selection, the way it's done with ::region and ::content?
18:08:01 [tantek]
I'm not sure I want to conflate ::selection inheritance and ::region inheritance
18:08:35 [glazou]
I don't think ::selection belongs to Regions
18:08:43 [tantek]
we already have multiple unprefixed implementations of ::selection which to me means we need to test/document existing interop behavior of *that*, rather than try to combine it with Regions
18:08:45 [glazou]
it's independent
18:08:49 [tantek]
glazou - we are agreed.
18:09:14 [astearns]
I am too, but I'd like to understand the point Bert was trying to make
18:09:25 [glazou]
sure
18:11:26 [Bert]
We also discussed restricting the properties that apply to ::selection to just the easy ones. But otherwise styling a P that is partly in region a and partly in region b is the same problem as styling a P that is partly in ::selection and partly not.
18:12:27 [glazou]
ok that argument is that ::selection has relationship with fragmentation ; I agree with that
18:12:59 [Bert]
Which is probably the same problem as styling a P that is both in the body and in a running header (if we decide we need to duplicate elements for running headers).
18:13:16 [tantek]
re: restricting properties that apply to ::selection - I propose we choose the set of properties that have been interop implemented for ::selection across existing implementations.
18:13:23 [glazou]
well
18:13:38 [tantek]
at least to get *something* spec'd that authors can depend on.
18:13:43 [glazou]
we chose originally to restrict to properties triggering a repaing and not a reflow
18:13:47 [glazou]
repaint
18:14:00 [tantek]
glazou - agreed, and I want to subset that according to actual implementation today.
18:14:06 [glazou]
agreed
18:14:09 [tantek]
we can always expand it in an iteration later.
18:14:14 [glazou]
absolutely
18:16:30 [glazou]
LOL
18:17:21 [tantek]
since it was here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511/#pseudo-elements
18:17:37 [tantek]
and we now have a much better understanding of its limitations.
18:18:08 [glazou]
::selection was in my first Selectors 3 draft I think, eons ago
18:18:20 [glazou]
probably back in 1999
18:19:15 [glazou]
spec archeology is always fun :-d
18:20:03 [tantek]
glazou - not quite 1999. made it into 2000-04-10 draft which I co-edited so I don't know which of us added it. http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-css3-selectors-20000410#UIfragments
18:21:43 [tantek]
glazou - I think it was me - first reference found here: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-css3-userint-19990916#pseudo-selection
18:22:02 [tantek]
so yes, 1999 introduced. 2000 incorporated into Selectors.
18:28:44 [glazou]
tantek, and I did an implem in Gecko too, because of yours, after *that* crepes dinner
18:28:57 [tantek]
*which* crepes dinner - so many I forget
18:29:02 [tantek]
was it a Ti Couz?
18:29:11 [glazou]
exactly
18:29:12 [tantek]
(which is sadly now closed :( )
18:29:22 [tantek]
glazou I feel old :(
18:29:32 [glazou]
the one when you challenged me to implement :not() overnight
18:29:41 [glazou]
:)
18:30:02 [glazou]
if you feel old, what should I say eh
18:51:20 [tantek]
Bert, sgalineau, astearns - re-adding ::selection captured as CSS3-UI issue 30 per above discussion: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-30
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19:14:17 [tantek]
email to list sent
19:18:32 [krit]
fantasai: I think I covered all your comments on http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/issues-lc-2013.html
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21:18:24 [krit]
fantasai: Hi, I incorporated some of your feedback and would like to ask you if I can close issues 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18, 20, 21 (removed the note from the spec) and 22. I can also ask on the mailing list if you prefer that.
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22:54:04 [dbaron]
TabAtkins, btw, do you know if Dael will be sponsored to attend the Seattle meeting?
23:00:52 [SimonSapin]
oh, great. "*Non-US state/province (limit 4 characters)"
23:05:50 [dbaron]
SimonSapin, use the ISO 3166 code, clearly :-P
23:06:18 [dbaron]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2
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