01:06:29 RRSAgent has joined #css 01:06:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-css-irc 01:06:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:07:56 note that there was a little bit of today's pre-meeting stuff in 10-css-irc 01:08:13 TabAtkins, audio is probably going to be painful, since it's going to be painful just in the room 01:08:24 yay 01:11:59 kennyluck_ has joined #css 01:12:26 myakura has joined #css 01:12:35 zcorpan has joined #css 01:15:16 cyril has joined #css 01:19:08 leif has joined #css 01:22:21 dbaron has joined #css 01:26:07 zcorpan has joined #css 01:26:47 jet has joined #css 01:28:21 israelh has joined #CSS 01:29:08 plh has joined #css 01:29:15 shepazu has joined #css 01:29:23 emalasky has joined #css 01:29:41 emalasky1 has joined #css 01:31:49 dsinger has joined #css 01:32:50 MichaelC has joined #css 01:32:58 Hm, rereading the canvas() discussion, I don't understand what dino means by "security issues" with element(). 01:33:16 shan has joined #css 01:33:28 sgalineau has joined #css 01:34:05 hayato_ has joined #CSS 01:35:02 sgalinea_ has joined #css 01:35:04 TabAtkins, timing attack sort of thing? 01:35:11 test 01:35:19 hayato_: pong 01:35:44 kennyluck: Right, but I don't understand how that can possibly be an issue. Or rather, how one can possibly skirt it with canvas(). 01:35:44 sgalinea_ has joined #css 01:35:54 Moz doesn't seem to have issues with -moz-element() currently. 01:36:51 dino_ has joined #css 01:36:58 Now, granted, one possible benefit of an element()-like function that's not actually element() is limiting it to elements that provide an image source, so there's no cycle detection required. 01:37:40 kennyluck: What do you mean? 01:38:13 cwdoh has joined #css 01:38:21 ChrisL has joined #css 01:39:04 Ah. We're much reduced from normal due to the meeting being in China. 01:39:13 coeus has left #css 01:39:18 Rossen_ has joined #css 01:39:54 rhauck has joined #css 01:40:08 kawabata2 has joined #css 01:40:09 coeus has joined #css 01:40:12 TabAtkins: "security issue" could include reading values of :visited from script? 01:40:14 /invite zakim #css 01:40:16 Hm, however, there are some *very* good use-cases for the general element(). 01:40:21 SimonSapin: How could you do that? 01:40:22 Zakim has joined #css 01:40:59 sgalineau has joined #css 01:41:09 silvia1 has joined #css 01:41:14 TabAtkins: I don’t know, but I recall hearing that yesterday 01:41:19 ScribeNick: fantasai 01:41:21 zakim, this is style 01:41:21 sorry, plinss, I do not see a conference named 'style' in progress or scheduled at this time 01:41:35 round of intros 01:41:54 zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home 01:41:54 ok, ChrisL 01:41:54 dsinger has joined #css 01:42:00 hayato has joined #CSS 01:42:07 SimonSapin: I mean, that's the usual timing attack scenario. But I have no clue why element() allows any timing attacks that aren't already allowed. 01:42:27 Can we ask Zakim for a room? 01:42:33 stakagi has joined #css 01:42:42 plinss: First topic: display: none on fragmentainers 01:42:58 astearns: Overflow fragments container that says that if fragment box has display noe, it doesn't create a box and gets no content 01:42:59 renoirb has joined #css 01:43:17 dbaron_ has joined #css 01:43:22 zcorpan has joined #css 01:43:39 Hello world from #TPAC 01:43:40 astearns: I think I'm going to add something similar to Regions spec, saying that if a region has display: none, it doesn't get any fragment of the named flow 01:43:49 zcorpan_ has joined #css 01:43:55 dopiweb has joined #css 01:43:58 ChrisL has joined #css 01:44:10 astearns: Question is, whether it remains a region and is something accessible in the named flows JS API, or if we add something to the spec saying that it does not become a region if it's display: none 01:44:12 zakim, room for 4? 01:44:13 ok, TabAtkins; conference Team_(css)01:44Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0244Z 01:44:19 astearns: I think latter formulation is a little bit more elegant 01:44:30 Hm, I wonder how I ask for a room for more time. 01:44:32 ChrisL: Would that mean if you flipped the value of display it forces reflow? 01:44:42 lmcliste_ has joined #css 01:44:44 ... 01:44:57 astearns: If you .. in JS, can see those named flows and perhaps do someting with them 01:45:24 astearns: problem: if these regions that are not really regions are in the API, have to figure out what info to return for them 01:45:41 astearns: I don't see much value in including them in the region chain api, so my preference is to not include them 01:46:03 dbaron has joined #css 01:46:03 ChrisL: You have a chain of elements, a linked list, seemed if you flip display you need to take it out of the list 01:46:03 sangwhan has joined #css 01:46:07 ChrisL: Is there overhead for that? 01:46:08 Team_(css)01:44Z has now started 01:46:15 +TabAtkins 01:46:18 astearns: Same overhead as switching e.g. 'flow-from' property 01:46:28 SteveZ has joined #css 01:46:47 astearns: I prpose resolving that regions with display: none do not become regions 01:46:57 astearns: I havea list of other things in the spec that don't beocme regions, would put it there. 01:46:59 I support this proposal. 01:47:09 astearns: Might consider putting something in the Fragmentation spec about general interaction with display 01:47:13 fantasai: ok 01:47:45 RESOLVED: regions with display: none do not join the region chain 01:48:00 RESOLVED: Add note to Fragmentation that display: none fragmentainers do not participate in fragmentation 01:48:08 sangwhan has left #css 01:48:12 zakim, call wuzhou-banquet-east 01:48:13 I am sorry, ChrisL; I do not know a number for wuzhou-banquet-east 01:48:16 Topic: Selecting Attributes 01:48:27 zakim, call wuzhou-east 01:48:27 I am sorry, ChrisL; I do not know a number for wuzhou-east 01:48:42 zakim, call Wuzhou-East 01:48:42 I am sorry, ChrisL; I do not know a number for Wuzhou-East 01:48:56 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 01:48:56 ok, ChrisL; the call is being made 01:48:58 +Wuzhou_East 01:48:59 koji has joined #css 01:49:17 Jirka: ITS WG, we have been creating REC which defines set of metadata which acn be used in HTML and XML documents in order to improve automatic l10n and i18n processes 01:49:27 s/i18n/translation/ 01:49:31 zakim, who is here? 01:49:31 On the phone I see TabAtkins, Wuzhou_East (muted) 01:49:32 On IRC I see koji, SteveZ, dbaron, lmcliste_, ChrisL, dopiweb, zcorpan_, zcorpan, dbaron_, renoirb, stakagi, hayato, dsinger, silvia1, sgalineau, Zakim, coeus, kawabata2, rhauck, 01:49:32 ... Rossen_, cwdoh, dino_, shan, MichaelC, emalasky1, shepazu, plh, israelh 01:49:37 Present (at table): Alan Stearns, Larry McLister, Rebecca Hauck, Simon Pieters, Jirka Kosek, Koji Ishii, Kazutaka Yamamoto, Taichi Kawabata, Rossen Anatassov, Israel Hilerio, ??? (W3C), Jet Villegas, Chris Lilley, Lea Verou, Sylvain Galineau, Bert Bos, Dirk Schultze, Dean Jackson, Elika Etemad, Steve Zilles, David Baron, Simon Sapin, Leif Arne Storset, Peter Linss 01:49:43 zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East 01:49:43 Wuzhou_East should no longer be muted 01:49:54 zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East 01:49:54 Wuzhou_East was not muted, ChrisL 01:50:01 Jirka: In ITS if you've for example suggest some automatic translaion, you can put attribute saying that 01:50:06 Jirka: which means don't translate this element 01:50:17 Jirka: Can also make rules to say which elements should / should not be translated 01:50:18 -Wuzhou_East 01:50:25 Jirka: Similar to how CSS attaches properties to elements 01:50:34 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 01:50:34 ok, ChrisL; the call is being made 01:50:36 +Wuzhou_East 01:50:47 zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East 01:50:47 Wuzhou_East should no longer be muted 01:50:50 Jirka: In ITS, if you would like such general approach, can use either XPath or Selectors 01:51:03 Jirka: Wanted Selectors because average Web developer knows Selectors, but not XPath 01:51:11 Jirka: So we added support for language such as Selectors 01:51:26 Jirka: But we have problem that HTML has human-language data in attributes instead of elements 01:51:35 Jirka: Like title attribute, some ppl using data attributes 01:51:52 TabAtkins: can you hear anything? 01:51:54 Jirka: Cannot apply rules to such text, because Selectors cannot point at attributes 01:51:56 ChrisL has joined #css 01:52:00 -Wuzhou_East 01:52:07 Jirka: So we would like to extend Selectors to allow that 01:52:12 Jirka: sent mail to www-style about this 01:52:17 Jirka: Don't know how to proceed 01:52:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0016.html 01:53:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0016.html 01:53:03 emalasky has joined #css 01:53:12 SimonSapin: ... 01:53:15 SimonSapin: Some issues with this 01:53:25 s/.../ we could add pseudo-elements that match attributes/ 01:53:29 SimonSapin: First, styling attributes makes no sense in CSS, so new feature would have to be invalid in CSS 01:53:45 SimonSapin: Also Selectors API only returns elements, so could not use feature there either 01:53:46 It doesn't have to be invalid in CSS, just never generate a box. 01:53:57 SimonSapin: Intent is to implement ITS with JS using SelectorAPI 01:54:10 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 01:54:18 SimonSapin: So even if we add this to CSS, JS API would have to be extended to return attributes 01:54:23 dwim has joined #css 01:54:24 But the SelectorsAPI part is harder, since we want .find/.qSA to return an Elements (array subclass that contains elements). 01:54:34 Jirka: Selectors abstract says it's generic language for selecting nodes 01:54:50 Jirka: So selecting attributes/nodes/comments is within that scope 01:54:59 Jirka: Know of some XML editors that extend Selectors in such ways 01:55:08 hyeonseokshin has joined #css 01:55:10 Jirka: There are other publication use cases that need that information 01:55:24 Jirka: So maybe need to decide whether Selectors can only apply to elements, or if need some extension 01:55:39 using @ both for attribute and @-rule seems highly confusing... 01:55:44 Satakagi has joined #css 01:55:47 Jirka: ... whether extending/modifying JS apis can be done 01:56:00 Problem is the fundamental data model. All common uses of Selectors only return elements, and it's hard/odd to make the APIs built up around this handle anything else. 01:56:06 zcorpan has joined #css 01:56:09 Jirka: ... splitting Selectors from CSS was a good idea ... 01:56:15 kennyluck: could be ::attr(foo) 01:56:19 ChrisL has joined #css 01:56:48 And attributes being nodes was always one of the weirder parts of old DOM, imo. 01:56:49 SimonSapin: In my opinion so far, Selectors is really about selecting elements 01:57:02 SimonSapin: And the one mechanism for going around this is pseudo-elements 01:57:18 Oooh, suggestion! We could return PseudoElement! 01:57:23 SimonSapin: The issue that needs to be solved for ITS is to find a way for JS API to handle more than elements 01:57:47 There's a reason we defined that interface! 01:58:05 cabanier has joined #css 01:58:07 ChrisL: We decided to call it Selectors, not CSS Selectors 01:58:24 ChrisL: Decided that so that it could be useful for other things 01:58:41 ChrisL: So, SimonSapin is correct -- CSS styles elements, so far only can select elements 01:59:02 I think it would be okay for .find() to return an array of Elements and PseudoElements. 01:59:04 ChrisL: If interested in using Selectors for other things, need to extend it for thos ethings 01:59:33 ChrisL: We're moving from XPath to Selectors W3C-wide, so can't say we don't want to handle someone else's use cases while saying that it's for everyone not for CSS alone 02:00:05 zcorpan: I agree with you that Selectors shoudl be generic, and could make sense to extend it 02:00:21 zcorpan: But also agree with Simon that I would like to see a proposal for what the SelectorsAPI should look like with this extension in place 02:00:34 Hey, yo, check the IRC. 02:00:35 zcorpan: Before extending Selectors with it 02:01:28 Jirka: I was just saying that for ? API, extending selecting is still perf problem or incompatible, can always introduce new types than just Elements 02:01:37 fantasai: So Tab has a comment in IRC 02:02:31 koji_ has joined #css 02:02:55 cabanier has joined #css 02:02:55 fantasai reads Tab's comments above 02:03:02 I don't think attributes are PseudoElements. What style do they have? (ie. remember that getComputedStyle can inspect pseudo-elments) 02:03:19 zcorpan: If we can return Elements and PseudoElements, then might as well return Elements and PseudoElements and Attr as well 02:03:21 kennyluck: A PseudoElement doesn't *need* to be able to generate a box. 02:03:47 If i'm not mistaken, Attr is not a property of an Element? 02:04:12 zcorpan: We're trying to kill the Attr interface. ^_^ 02:04:16 fantasai: send in a concrete proposal 02:04:45 TabAtkins: no? we're trying to make it not inherit from Node, the object can't be removed 02:04:57 zcorpan: Ah. 02:05:02 fantasai: Sounds like the next action is for someone to figure out how Selectors API shoudl be extended, and then come back with that solution and ask Selectors syntax to be extended 02:05:11 ... 02:05:15 TabAtkins, just what exactly should getComputedStyle(el, "::attr") return? An error or an style that has all initial values? 02:05:15 dbaron: I'm not convinced of use case 02:05:27 zcorpan: Just sticking with PseudoElement is probably good anyway - we likely want to allow people to, for example, select regions. 02:05:42 dbaron: There was some concerns wrt ... about excess complexity 02:05:45 kennyluck: Same as a ::before without a 'content'. 02:06:00 dbaron: Not clear to me feature that was done this way had to be done this way 02:06:07 Jirka: ... 02:06:22 Jirka: In situations with attributes, not possible to use Selectors 02:06:24 TabAtkins: I agree we need to have PseudoElement - I don't know that this is an argument to conflate PseudoElement with Attr 02:06:30 leif has joined #css 02:06:36 Jirka: I consider Selector sjust another language on top of doucment, like XPath 02:06:41 cabanier1 has joined #css 02:06:52 hyeonseok has joined #css 02:06:52 Jirka: My POV is to just extend Selectors. If some other API doesn't support attributes, then doesn't use it 02:06:53 s/.../ITS v1.0 wasxpath only, v2.0 adds selectors but they can't get at attributes 02:07:10 dbaron: Languages aren't designed to do everything. 02:07:12 astearns: Yeah, sure, it's not necessarily an argument for, but I already prefer the pseudo-element syntax for grabbing attrs, and it keeps down the set of things we'd return from .find. 02:07:20 cabanier1 has joined #css 02:07:21 ChrisL has joined #css 02:07:39 dbaron: You're taking a language designed around XPath and trying to swap in Selectors 02:07:47 TabAtkins: sure - having a similar interface to get to them makes sense 02:08:01 dbaron: not convinced we should extend Web platform for this spec that you wrote 02:08:12 really, ITS is the only thing that needs access to attributes? 02:08:16 Jirka: If Selectors is positioning itself as universal selection language, then .. 02:08:33 dbaron: DOM is moving towards model that attrs are not first-classs members of tree like elements are 02:08:47 dbaron: Attributes are an API on Elements, they're not a member of this tree 02:08:57 dbaron: Model that attributes are like nodes is too complex 02:09:21 zcorpan: Because of existing content, we can't get rid of Attr. Could maybe make it not inherit from Node, but still needs to exist 02:09:37 dbaron: Yes, there's existing things, but movement to change that 02:10:00 Jirka: I think that there is no reason to not support some part of the document because ... 02:10:30 Jirka: Attribute is simply [part of the document, doesn't matter how it is represented, it is still storing data belonging to the document. Shoudl be possible to select it 02:10:30 I would like to take the few small steps necessary to kill most remaining uses of XPath. 02:10:32 btoews has joined #css 02:10:46 cabanier has joined #css 02:10:50 we shouldn't be adding new api that treats attributes as being node-like 02:11:06 Jirka: I could go to users and say if you want to select attributes, must use XPath 02:11:32 fantasai reads Tab's comment 02:11:32 Right, hober, but having something that says "There's data in this attr over here" doesn't seem unreasonable. 02:11:38 TabAtkind: With XPath 2.0/3.0 it would be much more challenging :-) 02:12:02 tab, yes but we can't say on the one hand stop xpath and on the other hand, we only case about selectors that are good for CSS 02:12:07 Jirka: Sure, but I'm not as concerned about that, as there's no browser impls. ^_^ 02:12:10 s/case/care/ 02:12:16 ChrisL: Note that I'm not saying that. 02:12:27 <_nikos_office> _nikos_office has joined #css 02:12:30 ok good 02:12:36 cabanier has joined #css 02:13:05 fantasai: We already have a case where Selectors can select some things in one language (pseudo-elements are OK to select in CSS) but not in another (SelectorsAPI can only return actual elements) 02:13:24 fantasai: I don't think it's a stretch to have another language that can do things with Selectors that are invalid in other cases like SelectorsAPI/CSS 02:13:25 I care about Selectors that are useful for the web. If there are reasonable APIs on the web that would like to refer to attributes, then having a way to select those seems reasonable. 02:13:28 ChrisL has joined #css 02:13:47 this whole issue bout 'is an attr a node' seems orthogonal to whether selectors can get at them 02:14:02 rhauck1 has joined #css 02:14:02 plinss: If we added something to Selectors that allowed selecting attributes, but it didn't work in the API, would that be workable for you? 02:14:11 Selectors is *the* tree-traversal/search API on the web. 02:14:24 I guess I just don't understand why we give ITS this level of access to make demands of the CSS WG when we don't give lots of people developing things on the Web that level of access to the CSS WG. 02:14:29 plinss: I don't think that's acceptable for the Jirka things. 02:14:42 dbaron: We're giving them no more access than anyone else making a request. 02:14:54 Jirka: For us it will be sufficient just extending Selectors, not also changing SelectorsAPI at the same time 02:15:04 Jirka: Because in the meantime, there are ways to implement this 02:15:07 jcraig has joined #css 02:15:11 TabAtkins, I don't think we give most people making requests big slots on the agenda at a face-to-face. 02:15:14 Jirka: If there are other use cases for SelectorsAPI, can be changed in teh future 02:15:42 dbaron: Sure, I've got no comment on that, other than that we're taking time to discuss it, and the relevant person happens to be around. 02:15:44 Koji has joined #css 02:16:04 plinss: Does this work for people? Or ppl opposed to this? 02:16:27 zcorpan: My previous comment still applies, but I would be ok with adding it to Selectors now if it turns out that in a year or something, hasn't been added to Selectors API, then maybe should reverse it 02:17:13 ChrisL: It occurs to me that CSS might also have need for styling attributes, sometimes text would be in attributes, want to style it 02:17:55 fantasai: You're not styling the attribute, you're styling a pseudo-element that has slurped up the attribute's text via 'content' 02:17:59 ChrisL: Perhaps. Today that's done as ::before { content: attr(foo); }. 02:18:12 -TabAtkins 02:18:13 Team_(css)01:44Z has ended 02:18:13 Attendees were TabAtkins, Wuzhou_East 02:18:23 Bert: If you can use Regions flow to pull in attr to content, don't need the pseudo-element 02:18:26 we could select an attribute and flow it into a region... '::attr(title) {flow: a}' 02:18:51 Bert: That's jumping a bit ahead. You still need to describe how it generates a box, ordering, etc. 02:19:03 At that point you're just defining an ordinary pseudo-element. 02:19:17 koji has joined #css 02:19:26 If you can 'flow', you can 'display' without flowing. 02:20:06 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 02:20:40 plinss: CSS doesn't need it, at least not now, but is this something we should add to Selectors to support the ITS use case? 02:20:47 dbaron_ has joined #css 02:20:55 plinss: Not hearing any clear answers here 02:21:16 ChrisL: Sounds like we've stopped objecting, so need a concrete document for this 02:21:23 dbaron__ has joined #css 02:21:39 fantasai: If we think it's a pseudo-element, would go in a separate document from Selectors 02:22:40 TabAtkins, jet is holding the microphone up to his laptop's speaker 02:23:20 TabAtkins: I agree with what Chris says 02:23:37 TabAtkins: I don't have any comments beyond what I typed into IRC 02:25:03 fantasai: Jirka did send a proposal, so question is do we want that proposal? Are there other options to discuss? 02:25:06 (I think, until somebody founds an objection, '::' seems the best syntax so far.) 02:25:07 TabAtkins: lots of noise from your line. quiet now though. 02:25:16 fantasai: I didn't read the thread, be good to hear a summary from someone who did 02:25:33 SimonSapin: The initial proposal was with an @sign like in XPath, like @foo for foo attribute 02:25:54 SimonSapin: That's a bit foreign in Selectors, several ppl didn't like it, may be ambiguous with @rules in CSS syntax 02:26:01 SimonSapin: Next proposal was to use pseudo-element syntax 02:26:14 SimonSapin: Which make sense because this would have similar restrictions to pseudo-elements 02:26:26 SimonSapin: e.g. don't have child elements, have to be at the end of the selector 02:26:48 fantasai: Also it's only valid in certain contexts, just like most pseudo-elements are only valid in CSS rather than SelectorsAPI 02:27:02 pseudo-element syntax proposal: ::attr(foo) 02:27:09 or ::attr(ns|foo) 02:27:24 ChrisL: I like what Simon just typed 02:27:26 Bert: go for it 02:27:42 kennyluck: I don't think attributes are pseudo-elements, because they never have styles 02:27:53 Note that this selects the attribute off of the selected nodes, regardless of whether there's such an attribute (probably unlike XPath). 02:27:55 kennyluck: they don't generate a box 02:28:06 The translation of "@foo" is "[foo]::attr(foo)" 02:28:07 kennyluck: Tab pointed out using :before { content: attr()} 02:28:12 kennyluck: I think we should have other syntax 02:28:25 kennyluck: They *might* have styles, if we define how they generate a box. 02:28:49 sgalineau, none. This doesn’t do anything in CSS 02:28:49 @attributes(selector, attrib) 02:28:55 kennyluck: But that's pushed down. 02:29:04 ok, so purely for API selection 02:29:05 Oh, no, let's not abuse at-rules to hide selectors in. 02:29:48 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #css 02:29:56 cwdoh has joined #css 02:29:56 fantasai: .... 02:30:10 ChrisL has joined #css 02:30:17 SteveZ: Another way of saying is that it's not really pseudo-elements, but pseudo-things... broadening the class 02:30:33 ChrisL has joined #css 02:30:50 (fantasai was explaining that Selector in CSS select things that can have style properties, be they real elements or special pseudo-elements 02:31:19 Pseudo-elements are already a weird stretched concept, which are best understood as a combinator that jumps into some other tree. 02:31:30 but SelectorsAPI only selects actual elements,boxes are out-of scope 02:31:32 This explains ::region, ::content, etc. 02:31:48 s/Tab pointed out using :before { content: attr()}/Tab pointed out ::before { content: normal; } doesn't have styles but I think we have ::before because it "sometimes" have styles/ 02:31:56 In this case it'd be jumping into the attribute tree. 02:32:01 It would make sense for another language to have pseudo-elements that can select things relevant ot their context, but no pseudo-elements that represent boxes) 02:32:15 dbaron: If this goe sinto the Selectors spec, need to make it *very clear* that this can't be used in CSS to style attributes 02:32:28 dbaron: I'm fine with that, and can make it clear. 02:32:30 ...but that it's for selector APIs only 02:32:41 SimonSapin: Pseudo-elements have already moved out of Selectors module 02:32:47 fantasai: Yeah, it would be a separate spec 02:33:13 plh3 has joined #css 02:33:59 Fantasai: we are moving pseudoelements out of the Selectors Spec 02:34:22 Jirka: I'm willing ot be editor of this sepc 02:34:35 ... because Selectors is already too large and pseudo-elements only apply to CSS anyways 02:34:38 Daniel and Alan are already the editors of the relevant spec. ^_^ 02:34:39 plinss: Does anyone want to co-edit? 02:34:48 It seems a little odd for it to be a separate spec just for the attribute things 02:35:15 This isn't a CSS feature, there fore it shouldn't go with the other CSS specs 02:35:25 s/specs/-only features/ 02:36:31 fantasai: This isn't a CSS feature, there fore it shouldn't go with the other CSS specs. So it's clear this doesn't apply to CSS at all. 02:36:36 s/there fore/therefore/ 02:36:47 astearns: multiple before/after pseudos should be replaced anyway, didn't pass muster 02:37:02 plinss: So, draw up a draft, and we'll review it later 02:37:05 plinss: Anything else on this? 02:37:30 RESOLVED: Add ::attr() pseudo-element into a new module for non-CSS pseudo-elements 02:37:54 MichaelC has joined #css 02:37:59 krit asks about discussing WebVTT pseudos 02:38:42 plinss: we'll discuss ::cue after indieui 02:38:50 plinss: Please be back promptly at 11, we have a joint meeting 02:39:07 02:39:39 TabAtkins: let's work on the phone thing during break 02:40:29 koji has joined #css 02:40:39 tequila__ has joined #css 02:41:19 hayato__ has joined #css 02:42:44 MichaelC_ has joined #css 02:43:00 myakura_ has joined #css 02:43:20 ChrisL has joined #css 02:47:52 MichaelC__ has joined #css 02:48:01 ChrisL has joined #css 02:53:16 cwdoh has joined #css 02:54:46 TabAtkins, why is ::nth-fragment in a different spec from css-pseudo? 02:56:05 jcraig: Not any particular reason, except that the spec for it is kinda complicated. 02:57:50 cabanier has joined #css 02:58:15 ChrisL has joined #css 02:59:38 btoews has joined #css 03:00:11 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 03:00:25 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #css 03:00:51 would someone put the passcode in the channel please? 03:01:09 SteveZ has joined #css 03:02:01 richardschwerdtfeger: Calling in isn't working right. 03:02:20 ok. thanks Tab 03:03:36 cwdoh has joined #css 03:03:52 Is the phone problem room-specific? We were on the PF call a few minutes ago. 03:04:14 ChrisL has joined #css 03:04:41 jcraig: Seemingly, yeah. 03:05:18 It'll be difficult to present the topic if I can't call in. Ted O'Connor may be able to speak to some of it. 03:05:29 At least, we tried to have Zakim call Wuzhou_East, and it repeatedly didn't work. 03:05:50 but he's in WebApps now 03:06:57 can someone run a Skype call and have us connect in? 03:07:02 Apparently we have a bad polycom unit. 03:07:25 Skype might work for others, yeah. We haven't tried it yet, because I can't skype from my computer. 03:07:42 or could borrow the polygon from the PF room 03:07:49 polycon 03:09:59 :-) 03:10:51 Tab, still there? We have an engineer lookng at the Polycom. 03:11:47 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:11:47 sorry, Bert, I don't know what conference this is 03:11:58 zakim, this is style 03:11:59 sorry, Bert, I do not see a conference named 'style' in progress or scheduled at this time 03:12:10 zakim, this is css 03:12:10 sorry, Bert, I do not see a conference named 'css' in progress or scheduled at this time 03:12:12 zakim, room for 6? 03:12:14 ok, plinss; conference Team_(css)03:12Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0412Z 03:12:23 israelh has joined #CSS 03:12:25 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:12:25 ok, Bert; the call is being made 03:12:26 Team_(css)03:12Z has now started 03:12:28 +Wuzhou_East 03:12:59 Tab, the polycom may be sorted, try calling zakim again 03:13:27 what is the passcode? 03:13:34 Zakim, passcode? 03:13:34 the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig 03:14:06 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 03:14:37 -Wuzhou_East 03:14:40 +James_Craig 03:14:50 went quiet 03:15:19 +TabAtkins 03:15:32 Zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:15:32 ok, jcraig; the call is being made 03:15:34 +Wuzhou_East 03:15:43 Zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East 03:15:43 Wuzhou_East should no longer be muted 03:15:56 can you hear anything? 03:16:09 line now dead 03:16:09 zalkim, drop Wuzhou_East 03:16:11 MichaelC__ has joined #css 03:16:11 the meeting hasn't actually started, but you might hear background noise 03:16:12 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 03:16:16 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 03:16:16 Zakim, drop Wuzhou_East 03:16:18 Wuzhou_East is being disconnected 03:16:18 -Wuzhou_East 03:16:34 dino: No, the problem is that calling Wuzhou_East is failing. 03:16:35 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 03:16:42 Zakim isn't able to connect to it. 03:16:45 we heard you for a moment though 03:16:47 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 03:16:53 That's... strange. 03:17:06 I can hear James 03:17:08 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:17:08 ok, dino; the call is being made 03:17:10 +Wuzhou_East 03:17:16 that was wwaaaaaay too quit 03:17:18 quick 03:17:21 richardschwerdtfeger: Yeah, us in the call can hear us. 03:17:31 dino: That's what I keep telling you. ^_^ 03:17:44 We can hear a ringing sound, then dead line. 03:17:44 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:17:44 ok, Bert; the call is being made 03:17:46 +Wuzhou_East.a 03:18:06 can you hear bert? 03:18:12 Nope. 03:18:13 Should I attempt explanation via IRC? 03:18:14 we heard a ringing sound this time 03:18:16 zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East.a 03:18:16 Wuzhou_East.a should no longer be muted 03:18:26 line died again 03:18:26 Can y'all hear the dead line beeping? 03:18:31 -Wuzhou_East 03:18:32 zakim, mute Wuzhou_East 03:18:32 Wuzhou_East.a should now be muted 03:18:41 Yes, I hear the busy signal. 03:19:02 zakim, drop wuz 03:19:02 Wuzhou_East.a is being disconnected 03:19:03 -Wuzhou_East.a 03:19:15 zakim call wuzhou_east 03:19:22 zakim, call wuzhou_east 03:19:22 ok, MichaelC; the call is being made 03:19:24 +Wuzhou_east 03:19:45 that was easy 03:19:46 zakim, unmute wuz 03:19:46 Wuzhou_east was not muted, TabAtkins 03:20:00 Woo, works! 03:20:13 Zakim, who is on the phone? 03:20:13 On the phone I see James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_east 03:20:14 rhauck has joined #css 03:21:11 emalasky has joined #css 03:21:24 cwdoh_ has joined #css 03:21:35 nikos has joined #css 03:22:03 emalasky1 has joined #css 03:22:03 jcraig: we'll have microphones soon 03:22:31 dbaron has joined #css 03:22:53 rhauck1 has joined #css 03:23:56 -Wuzhou_east 03:24:23 zlei_ has joined #css 03:24:24 D'oh, wuzhou dropped. 03:24:29 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:24:29 ok, Bert; the call is being made 03:24:29 zakim, call wuzho_east 03:24:30 I am sorry, dino; I do not know a number for wuzho_east 03:24:30 +Wuzhou_East 03:24:51 zakim, drop wuzhou_east 03:24:51 Wuzhou_East is being disconnected 03:24:53 -Wuzhou_East 03:24:57 zakim, dial wuzhou_east 03:24:58 ok, TabAtkins; the call is being made 03:24:58 +Wuzhou_east 03:25:14 zakim, who is on the phone? 03:25:14 On the phone I see James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_east (muted) 03:25:16 AndroUser has joined #css 03:25:23 zakim, unmute wuz 03:25:23 Wuzhou_east should no longer be muted 03:25:28 zakim, mute wuz 03:25:28 Wuzhou_east should now be muted 03:25:28 koji has joined #css 03:25:33 zakim, drop wuz 03:25:33 Wuzhou_east is being disconnected 03:25:35 -Wuzhou_east 03:25:36 Hm... 03:25:50 johooney has joined #css 03:25:52 This totally worked a second ago. 03:26:07 jcraig: Nope, I'm at home in Cali. 03:26:14 we need Michael Cooper to do whatever magic he did last time 03:26:22 we did 03:26:43 zakim, dial Wuzhou_east 03:26:43 ok, TabAtkins; the call is being made 03:26:45 +Wuzhou_east 03:26:59 (of course we have no idea what the hotel telephone system is doing behind the scenes) 03:27:01 Jirka has joined #css 03:27:07 zakim, who's on the phone? 03:27:07 On the phone I see James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_east 03:27:14 Looks like we can kind of hear the room now. 03:27:20 At least, sometimes. It's spotty, but it's working. 03:27:22 berg has joined #css 03:27:22 looks? 03:27:39 Like, it's fading in and out at about 1hz 03:27:57 ScribeNick: fantasai 03:28:07 can people on the phone hear peter speaking? 03:28:13 yes 03:28:13 plinss: IndieUI joining us for presentation 03:28:22 -Wuzhou_east 03:28:26 dammit 03:28:49 Janina: Thanks for allowing us time 03:28:50 dsinger has joined #css 03:29:03 shan has joined #css 03:29:18 Janina: We have been working on 2 modules, want to talk about today the User Context model, which will allow applications to convey key things based on user prefs 03:29:21 Since this phone isn't working, jcraig is wanting to reschedule in the PF room, as they know their phone works 03:29:30 Janina: Recently Apple came up with suggestion that we really liked to use Media Queries 03:29:30 Because we've dropped entirely. 03:29:41 Janina: We like it for many reasons 03:29:44 zakim, call Wuzhou_East 03:29:44 ok, dino; the call is being made 03:29:45 +Wuzhou_East 03:29:45 jasonjgw has joined #css 03:29:48 :( 03:29:55 Janina: And James Craig ahs been redrafting our document, and will provide examples 03:30:02 Okay, we're in. 03:30:10 Janina: Once phone starts working, will ask James to present on how we propose to use MQ 03:30:11 dopi has joined #css 03:30:13 Nope, out. 03:30:14 -Wuzhou_East 03:30:17 Janina: want your reactions to this 03:30:23 MichaelC_ has joined #css 03:30:31 Janina: We're fine if we maintain the spec or if migrate to another spec 03:30:49 myakura has joined #css 03:30:52 Rossen_ has joined #css 03:31:00 discussion of phone problems 03:31:03 Zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East 03:31:03 sorry, SimonSapin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Wuzhou_East 03:31:03 ok. moving to the PF room 03:31:09 hober: I can pretend to be James for a minute 03:31:18 Clarifying, this was a joint WG agreement to switch to media queries. Ted and I (Apple) came up with a restrictions/privacy/anti-fingerprinting proposed extension to MediaQueryList and @media. 03:31:22 hober: One concrete example from user Context spec tha tmake smore sense as MQ is display-colors-inverted 03:31:24 dbaron_ has joined #css 03:31:35 hober: To handle case where for a11y reasons,have system-wide color inversion 03:31:43 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#colors-inverted 03:31:44 hober: Most of the time should be invisible to page 03:31:55 I talked to our own a11y people about display-colors-inverted, and support it. 03:31:55 hober: breaks down for content images, some background images 03:32:03 hober: so that people look in normal colors, not like aliens 03:32:21 hober: double-inverted MQ allows author to double-invert images so they come out right 03:32:25 I thought we could just auto-invert pictures/videos, but apparently a bunch of "little" images, like icons and such, should stay inverted like the text they're next to. 03:32:33 RalphS has joined #css 03:32:40 dbaron___ has joined #css 03:32:42 Only significant/"content" images and videos need to be re-inverted back to normal. 03:32:52 cabanier1 has joined #css 03:32:58 Though ted's use case sort of depends on knowing the exact inversion in order to re-invert 03:33:13 Zakim, call wuzhou_east 03:33:13 ok, RalphS; the call is being made 03:33:14 +Wuzhou_east 03:33:16 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 03:33:23 -James_Craig 03:33:30 Zakim, unmute Wuzhou 03:33:33 Wuzhou_east was not muted, dbaron___ 03:33:39 -Wuzhou_east 03:33:48 fantasai: I would prefer we could tag images as not to be inverted, and the UA should hanle it 03:33:49 zakim, passcode? 03:33:49 Envymask has joined #css 03:33:49 the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig 03:34:01 s/hanle/handle/ 03:34:05 Ted: Using CSS filters to undo inversion seems natural 03:34:14 +James_Craig 03:34:21 Ted: Authors in the best position to know whether image should be re-inverted 03:34:29 Ted: MQ just has two keywords, inverted andnone 03:34:39 Ted: But if you wanted to cover different forms of inverted, would need more keywords 03:34:52 Ted: MQ sould then only match systems that have form of inversion 03:35:00 kennyluck has joined #css 03:35:04 plinss: That seems fragile for me, if different types of images 03:35:10 lmcliste_ has joined #css 03:35:12 Before we get into specific discussion of individual MQ features, I would like to summarize the approach if rescheduling to a working phone bridge is not an option. 03:35:16 it's not clear to me that system-inversion is the same as CSS filter invert() 03:35:27 I like fantasai's suggestion of tagging elements as not invertible. 03:35:27 Let's don't get hung up on inversion algorithms yet 03:35:30 s/types of images/types of inversions/ 03:36:03 First of all, from the intro: "The specification below adds several new "Media Features" to detect user settings, using existing syntax defined in the CSS3 Media Queries specification, and provides an access control extension to the MediaQueryList interface defined in the CSSOM View Model." 03:36:07 "Because this approach relies so heavily on features that overlap with work maintained by the CSS Working Group and Web Applications Working Group, it is likely that portions or all of this specification may move under the purview these other groups. At a minimum, the IndieUI Working Group requests guidance and a collaborative working relationship with CSS and WebApps." 03:36:15 for alternative color inversion, see http://dbaron.org/mozilla/invert-colors#http://www.w3.org/ in Firefox 03:36:20 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#intro 03:37:21 fantasai: While I support MQ for a11y prefs in general, I don't think this particular case is best handled by MQ. I would rather enable tagging images that shouldn't be inverted and let the UA handle that as appropriate. 03:37:45 hober: Would you allow tagging bg images? 03:37:52 fantasai: Think it should be general to all images 03:37:56 fantasai: yes 03:38:03 [dbaron reads jcraig's comments] 03:38:11 Ralph_ has joined #css 03:38:14 The general idea is that sometimes user-specific settings are needed by web apps. Large document suites like Google Docs and iWork for iCloud are examples of this, where they can improve the experience for all users if the app is provided with specific user settings, allowed by the users 03:38:34 but there are real privacy and fingerprinting implications to this 03:38:37 krit: One point, double-inversion can be done with filter function, but agree with fantasai that shouldn't do the double-inversion for the browser, but have the browser do it 03:38:55 hober: ... 03:39:00 krit: Shouldn't be content images in style 03:39:07 for example, not all web pages should know if a screenreader is running, just like not all pages should need to know your location 03:39:21 fantasai: It's not so much content vs not content in this cas,e but mayb ephotographic vs not photographic, etc. 03:39:26 ChrisL has joined #css 03:39:30 rhauck has joined #css 03:39:44 so the general concept is that there are media feature groups that can be restricted (some specific to accessibility, some noty) 03:39:59 rhauck has joined #css 03:40:00 janina: bar chart might want inverted, but not ... 03:40:01 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#example-restricted-call-to-matchmedia 03:40:05 Zakim, who's on the phone? 03:40:05 On the phone I see TabAtkins, James_Craig 03:40:16 ChrisL has joined #css 03:40:16 fantasai: Also might want to invert luminosity but not hue in the bar chart, if talking about colors in the paragraph text nearby 03:40:18 is the phone working now? 03:40:23 janina: Ability to control that definitely a plus 03:40:33 Zakim, call wuzhou_east 03:40:33 ok, Ralph_; the call is being made 03:40:34 +Wuzhou_east 03:40:50 though inverting luminosity but not hue is actually kind of hard -- if you want to preserve hue you need to either sacrifice accurate luminosity or accurate saturation 03:41:04 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 03:41:08 ack wuz 03:41:09 fantasai: We have a need to tag images for bidi already, so whatever syntax we use for that can be use dwith this (with additional appropriate keywords) 03:41:20 ChrisL has joined #css 03:41:30 jcraig: Want to discuss general idea of ? MQ 03:41:31 -Wuzhou_east 03:41:41 This general idea was first floated around 2007 (oof), on the WhatWG list and socialized some time around then with CSS 03:41:47 in fact, dbaron inverting lightness is relatively easy 03:42:17 if someone in the room could read my IRC comments out loud? 03:42:19 Skype into the meeting? 03:42:20 ChrisL has joined #css 03:42:28 In this example: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#example-restricted-call-to-matchmedia 03:42:42 zcorpan has joined #css 03:43:01 [we are trying to skype in] 03:43:27 if a site author requests access to a "restricted" media feature, matchMedia and @media alway return the default value immediately (don't expose user prefs or privacy) 03:43:27 fantasai reads james's comments from irc 03:43:33 zakim, code? 03:43:33 the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dbaron 03:43:47 +??P10 03:43:49 I'm supportive fo the general approach, but unsure about the precise mechanics. Several of these appear to be best done as special values, etc. 03:44:07 -??P10 03:44:17 but then the user is prompted, and the web app can get an asynchronous callbnack when the setting becomes allowed via addListener or a subsequent call to matchMedia 03:44:20 zakim, code 03:44:20 I don't understand 'code', fantasai 03:44:30 zakim, passcode? 03:44:30 the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig 03:44:52 +[IPcaller] 03:45:18 can someone on the phone speak out loud? 03:45:42 ChrisL has joined #css 03:45:48 Tomoyuki has joined #css 03:45:57 the specifics of the proposal are rough, but we think the general idea of the privacy modeal is sound. 03:45:57 Tomoyuki has left #css 03:47:03 Privacy model seems interesting. So, how do you get permission to access this stuff? On first use, pop a request bar? Explicit JS request? Only explicit user action? 03:48:24 plh has joined #css 03:48:42 TabAtkins, on first request to mql.matches… or first time @media block (and a rule inside it match) 03:48:48 Okay. 03:49:02 we can hear the phone pretty well 03:49:31 Todo from the spec: Explain how the privacy model works: when user prompted, matchMedia returns false immediately, and only provides the updated match ansynchronously through matchMedia().addEventListener or subsequent requests to matchMedia().matches (e.g. on page reload) so there is never any detectable difference between "No" and "You don't need to know." A restricted @media block never prompts unless both the @media block and an included selector matches. 03:49:45 OK, let's go with this system here. I'll type, you guys talk 03:50:00 danielkim has joined #css 03:50:11 jcraig: Before specifics of individual media features, general idea is web app [echo] 03:50:11 Rayberg has joined #css 03:50:20 jcraig: Specific media feature, idea is that 03:50:30 Zakim, mute IPcaller 03:50:30 [IPcaller] should now be muted 03:50:42 zcorpan has joined #css 03:50:47 jcraig: categories of features that user may not want everybody to know about 03:50:51 The @media "only request if there's an matched element" isn't a significant restriction. @media (foo) { * {} } is easy. 03:50:54 jcraig: such as things such as disabilities 03:50:56 Zakim, [IPcaller] is fantasai-laptop 03:50:56 +fantasai-laptop; got it 03:51:00 jcraig: or specific media features 03:51:06 jcraig: but also some that are less strict 03:51:13 jcraig: which can be currently determined by creatively using CSS and JS 03:51:20 jcraig: but thought to make those as media feature as wel 03:51:30 hooney has joined #css 03:51:30 jcraig: if you have an @media block with a particular rule, e.g. @media (subtitle) 03:51:36 jcraig: would match whether have specific setting on 03:51:44 jcraig: if got @media block and rule inside of that 03:51:59 jcraig: if the page matched that user setting, and had matching selector, then you would get a user prompt at that time 03:52:26 jcraig: web page would return default value until user accepted to reveal actual prefs 03:52:39 jcraig: user could set prefs for specific rules 03:52:53 jcraig: e.g. any feature related to audio/video, or related to screenreader, or related to color settings 03:53:07 jcraig: these could potentially expose user to fingerprinting / privacy concerns 03:53:21 I could see the prompt saying "This page wants access to your accessibility preferences. Allow/Deny?". 03:53:38 "wants to know about your" 03:53:38 jcraig: would like CSS and WebApps to allow these queries, but in ways that don't expose undue privacy leaks 03:54:10 Zakim, unmute fantasai-laptop 03:54:10 fantasai-laptop should no longer be muted 03:54:36 being asked on every page that contains media that can adapt would (I hope, since all media pages should be accessible) quickly get annoying. 03:54:37 fantasai: I think this seems reasonable to me, as long as the spec is flexible enough to allow UI innovation 03:54:39 The spec needs significant review for idiom use, and several of these MQs should instead be values or otherwise handled within normal CSS (such as the color prefs), but otherwise it seems broadly okay. 03:54:49 dwim has joined #css 03:54:54 Thinks it should be more specific than just general "accessibility" settings. There are categories that a user could choose to expose. 03:55:13 jet: So, authors for many years have sucked at writing accessibility features, and people who need those features pick specific UAs that will give them consistent presentation from site to site 03:55:17 dsinger: If you want to allow it for all pages, you should be able to set it to always yes. 03:55:27 jet: Allowing author to implement those seems antagonistic to suers who need those features the most 03:56:07 s/suers/users/ 03:56:09 Re: annoyance. If a user did not care whether every site knew they wanted captions, they could allow that feature category to all websites. 03:56:11 jcraig: Being specific is fine within the context of a settings page, but not within the context of a permissions grant. You want a minimum of permission requests, worded for maximum clarity. 03:56:27 if the natural result that all users set it to say "yes, always" we're not exactly mitigating fingerprinting risk, alas 03:56:38 RalphS has joined #css 03:56:49 jcraig: If someone wanted to share, should do that from browsers 03:56:52 jcraig: allow all 03:57:16 jcraig: flip side is ? sharing, where prompt for location settings is not needed on most sites, but needed for spcific sites like maps 03:57:36 s/?/location/ 03:57:44 janina: Might want to define it once and use it in various different UAs 03:58:28 ?: presumably the proposal would have common formats for storing it and so that UAs can then retrieve that info on behalf of user as required. Would extend work somewhat 03:58:54 ?: MQ syntax for expressing user's individual prefs, secondly existing apis for interrogating that info, then potentially a format for storing and enabling UAs to retrieve it 03:58:59 That sounds far beyond the concerns of CSS. We should just be worrying about the stuff themselves. 03:59:13 ?: could be a layer on top of that 03:59:23 zqzhang___ has joined #css 03:59:26 Hahaha, the actual features. 03:59:28 s/?/Jason/ 03:59:37 like grouping? 03:59:38 I R GUD AT ENGLISH 03:59:53 fantasai: I agree with Tab, that seems like an OS-level feature 03:59:58 fantasai: Not something to standardize here 04:00:08 what seems like an OS feature? 04:00:23 jcraig: The specification of prefs in a browser-agnostic way. 04:00:29 jcraig: /sharing of prefs across browsers. 04:00:36 stakagi has joined #css 04:00:45 fantasai: So what I've heard so far is that jcraig wants to make sure that an MQ approach is in general OK 04:01:02 fantasai: And we have some concerns about individual features being better handled in other ways than MQ, but others OK 04:01:45 As an example, -ms-high-contrast proposal is clearly within the scope of CSS MF, but it potentially exposes users to privacy/fingerprinting. So I think the privacy model goes hand-in-hand with the CSS features. 04:01:49 Bert: Approach is good, but haven't looked at individual properties yet 04:01:51 Several of these are best as values, perhaps a user-pref() function. 04:01:52 Should be part of CSSOM 04:02:24 And we can hang an API off of window.CSS for querying them directly (triggering the permissions grant - this needs some more thought). 04:02:40 fantasai: Think we agree with the general approach, but want to review more closely individual features to make sure they are best handled as MQ, or should be handled otherwise 04:02:41 user-pref(foreground-color), etc. 04:02:50 jcraig: How do people feel about named groups? 04:03:00 that was rich 04:03:02 s/jcraig/Rich/ 04:03:03 :-) 04:03:16 Bert: Can you explain what that is? 04:03:29 Example: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#userMediaSettings 04:03:33 I think the named groups are more of a "browser/OS categorization suggestion" thing. 04:03:56 lmcliste_ has joined #css 04:04:04 Like I said, I think that the permissions prompt should be a one-and-done thing. 04:04:08 ?: Media features are grouped, and if any oe of those features are prompted for, user will get one prompt, otherwise different prompt 04:04:26 fantasai: I think how the prompts are categorized should be up to the UA 04:04:27 Ralph_ has joined #css 04:04:35 jcraig: ... 04:04:44 While permissions might be perma-granted in a granular fashion in the settings page, a request for currently-ungranted prefs should grant everything. 04:04:45 jcraig: Specifics of proposal are rough, but general model is clear 04:04:56 Anything else is user-hostile, though I recognize the potential weaknesses. 04:05:00 s/clear/sound/ 04:05:13 ??: Whatever is decided should follow European privacy model 04:05:29 rich: link? 04:05:43 This kidn of info *should* be specified in the spec, but it's less of a concern for the CSS things themselves, except insofar as we need to make sure there is *a* sane way to request permission for these. 04:05:49 ??: European privacy and APEC model works for ... US model ... 04:06:14 rich: do you have a link to these models? 04:06:35 fantasai: Further comments? 04:06:40 I think it can work within the existing API for matchMedia 04:06:42 ??: iapp.org 04:06:43 I'm willing to do a spot review of the spec and present conclusions to the WG. 04:06:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Privacy_and_Electronic_Communications 04:07:19 We meet with WebApps about the same topic later today. 04:07:22 [discussion of timelines] 04:07:38 fantasai: When would you like to assign action to CSSWG to review your draft? 04:07:43 Tab has agreed to review the spec. 04:07:50 last 3 ?? are Katie Haritos-Shea 04:07:50 janina: Probably before FPWD, maybe Jan/Feb? James? 04:07:55 s/spec./draft/ 04:09:10 public-indie-ui 04:09:14 ACTION csswg to review User Context Module 04:09:14 Error finding 'csswg'. You can review and register nicknames at . 04:09:37 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html 04:09:44 Action tab and csswg to review User Context Module https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html 04:09:44 Created ACTION-593 - And csswg to review user context module https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/indieui/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-11-18]. 04:09:57 plinss: Timeframe on feedback? 04:10:13 thanks for your time, everyone. 04:10:13 fantasai: next 2 months, I heard 04:10:25 rich: thank you 04:10:32 janina: Sounds fine. We're loose on timeframe, since working to finish events thing 04:10:32 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 04:10:40 ChrisL has joined #css 04:10:47 Case closed. 04:10:49 -James_Craig 04:11:04 plinss: That brings us to lunch, then digipub joint meeting 04:11:21 04:11:27 1hr? 04:11:32
04:11:42 You forgot the dur='' attribute! 04:11:49 THIS BREAK LASTS FOREVER 04:11:53 dwim has joined #css 04:12:00 I think the default value for type=lunch is 1.5hr 04:12:07 but I'm not sure about this specific instance :) 04:12:17 Zakim, call wuzhou_east 04:12:17 ok, RalphS; the call is being made 04:12:19 +Wuzhou_east 04:12:36 shooting for 1:15 04:12:43 return time 04:12:57 TabAtkins ^ 04:13:11 Sounds good. 04:13:12 ChrisL has joined #css 04:13:13 -fantasai-laptop 04:13:23 -TabAtkins 04:14:13 danielkim has joined #css 04:17:47 MichaelC has left #css 04:18:19 Envymask has joined #css 04:18:24 disconnecting the lone participant, Wuzhou_east, in Team_(css)03:12Z 04:18:25 Team_(css)03:12Z has ended 04:18:25 Attendees were Wuzhou_East, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Craig, TabAtkins, Wuzhou_East.a, fantasai-laptop 04:18:31 ChrisL has joined #css 04:19:25 Ralph_ has joined #css 04:19:31 dwim has joined #css 04:23:14 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 04:23:37 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 04:24:23 Dongwon_ has joined #css 04:24:42 Dongwon has joined #css 04:26:09 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 04:27:02 Dongwon_ has left #css 04:30:23 Ralph__ has joined #css 04:31:37 ok, Ralph__; conference Team_(css)04:31Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 360 minutes until 1031Z 04:31:45 Team_(css)04:31Z has now started 04:31:46 +Wuzhou_east 04:34:22 richardschwerdtfeger has left #css 04:34:48 -Wuzhou_east 04:34:48 Team_(css)04:31Z has ended 04:34:49 Attendees were Wuzhou_east 04:34:55 cwdoh has joined #css 04:35:01 Team_(css)04:31Z has now started 04:35:03 +Wuzhou_east 04:42:50 koji has joined #css 05:02:11 leif has joined #css 05:05:42 btoews has joined #css 05:10:24 Okay, I'm gone for about 40 minutes, just in case anyone reconvenes before then. 05:10:42 Ralph has left #css 05:15:13 dino has joined #css 05:18:22 dsinger has joined #css 05:18:39 dbaron has joined #css 05:20:12 sgalineau has joined #css 05:21:01 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 05:21:19 sgalineau has joined #css 05:21:34 cwdoh has joined #css 05:21:35 zakim, who is on the phone? 05:21:35 On the phone I see Wuzhou_east 05:23:29 leif1 has joined #css 05:25:05 zcorpan has joined #css 05:25:28 jet has joined #css 05:29:56 zcorpan has joined #css 05:30:23 dauwhe has joined #css 05:32:28 AndroUser2 has joined #css 05:34:15 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html 05:35:03 Jirka has joined #css 05:36:01 btoews has joined #css 05:36:57 rhauck has joined #css 05:37:12 rhauck1 has joined #css 05:37:18 plh has joined #css 05:37:19 silvia has joined #css 05:37:41 liam has joined #css 05:38:00 kimwoonyoung has joined #css 05:38:10 shan has joined #css 05:38:13 myakura has joined #css 05:39:05 kennyluck has joined #css 05:40:29 cabanier has joined #css 05:40:44 ScribeNick: fantasai 05:41:04 Topic: DigiPub Joint Meeting 05:41:40 ivan has joined #css 05:42:10 israelh has joined #css 05:42:11 Markus: This interest Group is charged with producing reqs and use cases for digital publishing industry for the open web platform -- things digital publishing wants to do that web platform can't do yet 05:42:19 Markus: Pagination is really important, obviously 05:42:30 nikos has joined #css 05:42:33 Markus: Point o fthis meeting is to go over our progress, and get feedback on it 05:42:52 Markus: Our question is, how should we structure this, document this, what do you need? 05:43:09 Markus: Here's our draft of pagination, which Dave Cramer has been working on 05:43:15 Markus: Sits in context worth mentioning quickly 05:43:18 lmcliste_ has joined #css 05:43:25 Markus: Most of you know aobut JLREQ, which was worked on for 5 years before published 05:43:39 Markus: There are other similar documents within i18n starting up 05:43:50 Markus: This document is going to be LatinReq 05:44:04 Markus: To capture publishing requirements for Western typesetting 05:44:07 cabanier1 has joined #css 05:44:11 Markus: It will be use dto draaw concrete requirements for CSS 05:44:13 masatakayakura has joined #css 05:44:22 http://www.w3.org/TR/pagination/ 05:44:33 koji has joined #css 05:44:51 leif has joined #css 05:44:53 DaveCramer: ... 05:45:16 dc: Looked at JLREQ, realized modeling it on that was impossible 05:45:20 jet has joined #css 05:45:23 dc: This is just beginning of what we hope to achieve 05:45:23 cabanier has joined #css 05:45:24 dom has joined #css 05:45:35 dc: Want to describe what print publishing has been doing for last 100s of years 05:45:48 rhauck has joined #css 05:45:50 dc: And then see what is useful for digitlal books 05:46:01 URL is http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ 05:46:04 cabanier has joined #css 05:46:11 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html 05:46:19 dc: For this document, just started writing some introductory material and then diving in to start describing, even in simplest cases, what rules are publishers working with on books, what kinds of things do we care about 05:46:20 dbaron_ has joined #css 05:46:38 mgylling has joined #css 05:46:38 dc: brings up a lot of the issues we need to deal with 05:46:55 cyril has joined #css 05:46:57 dc: Simple example here of fake edition of Moby Dick, illustrate widows/orphans 05:47:00 hayato_ has joined #CSS 05:47:01 dwim has joined #css 05:47:08 dc: brings up concept of what exactly is a page in context of open web platform 05:47:27 dc: concern with position of this particular line in the page, concept of concept of spread 05:47:51 cyns has joined #css 05:47:54 dc: CSS has a setting for saying how many lines ok to leave at top of page, but in most UAs if you set that, what it does is it moves a line from the previous page 05:48:05 dc: which horrifies publishing community by having two halves of the spread not aligning 05:48:19 deanJackson: What do they want? 05:48:31 dwim has joined #css 05:48:56 dc: First step is to go back earlier in that particular chapter and make some change that will make the problem go away 05:49:06 dc: first thing we would try is making the previous spread shorter 05:49:25 deanJackson: What do you do if it's the first page of the chapter? 05:49:27 stakagi has joined #css 05:49:41 dc: Chapter usually starts a bit down the page, might shift it up a little 05:49:54 ChrisL: These are all manual interventions. Need rules for formatter 05:50:04 dc: Think this problem is mostly solveable conceptually 05:50:29 Rossen_ has joined #css 05:50:35 dc: Large aspect of labor going into producing traditional book is solving these kinds of issues 05:50:58 ChrisL: First point, if it's not solveable automatically, then CSS can't do it either 05:51:27 ChrisL: If it is solveable and CSS can do it, then saves costs b/c can be done automatically 05:51:38 jeff has joined #css 05:51:46 dc: Want to follow good craft of layout 05:52:04 dc: If we have that automatic solution,apply that to digital books, will be huge increase in quality of things out there 05:52:28 Markus: Also scope of what we're trying to do this is both hard-copy formatting, which is a lto of the work that Dave does, to prepare (using HTML+CSS in this case) paper copies 05:52:42 Markus: But also dynamic pagination in reading systems, which ... 05:52:48 Markus: Huge overlap for publisher 05:53:07 satakagi has joined #css 05:53:08 Markus: Cost of doing these recalculations, offline it's okay if it takes a few minutes, but in dynamic ebook environment not so okay 05:53:16 dc: Don't have sense of algorithms for that 05:53:30 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 05:53:39 deanJackson: Wanted to do a lot of these in iBooks, but hard to do 05:53:55 dc:Yeah, everything preior in the documen tis sort of in scope, so searching lots of possibilities 05:54:18 deanJackson: Even handling widows and orhpans as we do requires backtracking, which we don't like to do 05:54:26 deanJackson: going back more than one page / column ... :( 05:54:42 s/deanJackson/dino/g 05:55:21 SteveZ: Question comes up, is there a level of degradation that people can live with in the e-environment htat wouldn't be acecptable in print environment, but would be good enough 05:55:28 SteveZ: good enough beats out best 05:55:31 dc grumps about Kindle 05:55:42 dc: I have higher expectations. Don't want to give up without trying 05:55:43 kennyluck has joined #css 05:55:59 dc: I want to raise the standards of the digital world to match what's possible in print 05:56:19 dc: Other issues ... 05:56:27 dc: Common example in novels ... I'm calling them space breaks 05:56:37 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html#space-breaks-and-ornaments 05:56:40 Dongwon has joined #css 05:56:46 dc: blanki line or two where the thought changes or scene changes 05:57:21 dc: at page break, looks like misalignment, so if it falls at page break put in visible element, like asterisks 05:57:41 dc: so want to know if element is at top or bototm of page, to change its appearance. Whole class of things want to change 05:57:55 +TabAtkins 05:57:56 dc: I dream of :top-of-page pseudo-elements, e.g., to address a whole class of issue shere 05:57:58 s/bototm/bottom/ 05:58:03 dino: I'm sure our team would love that as well 05:58:14 dc: As we said, just getting started with this effort 05:58:19 r12a has joined #css 05:58:28 dc: Filling in some of these sections just to learn how to work with this, what level of deatil isappropriate 05:58:43 dc: Would love to know what you guys would find helpful 05:58:47 dc: what can we do for you, to help make this move forward 05:58:56 dino: Priorities would be an important thing 05:59:08 kawabata2 has joined #css 05:59:16 dino: For you as the industry to say what is hugely important 05:59:25 dino: especially if you have data to back that up 05:59:30 dino: adn break it down market by market 05:59:39 dino: e.g. maybe widows isn't important in Korean 06:00:08 dc: Talking with others about similar issues in traditional Chinese, e.g. don't want just one character in a column 06:00:15 dc: want a minimal amount of content on a page 06:00:17 dc: etc. 06:00:26 dc: Want ot minimize disruptions as reader goes from one page to another 06:00:27 dom has left #css 06:00:28 cabanier1 has joined #css 06:00:33 dc: So expect lots of commonalities among writing systems 06:00:52 Markus: Request was for, prioritization of all these things, and also locale 06:00:57 breakdown 06:01:22 dino: We're often told by Japanese publishers, if you don't suppot this type of annotations or whatever, its' a showstopper 06:01:31 dino: It would be great to get similar types of priorities 06:01:42 dino: To give another example, italics or obliques in Japanese vertical text 06:01:51 dino: Possibly it's very uncommon, don't need to spend so much time on it 06:01:53 masatakayakura has joined #css 06:01:59 dino: So would be helpful to know how many ppl actually impacted by this 06:02:14 SteveZ: One other thing you hit upon is, some things the known algorithms involve backtracking 06:02:15 cabanier1 has joined #css 06:02:29 SteveZ: whereas other things, like asterisks, which don't really force backtracking 06:02:41 SteveZ: so to extent knowing tech used to implement is useful thing to identify as well 06:03:03 astearns: I don't think you need to prioritize everything in the document against each other, but to surface the highest-priority items 06:03:42 fantasai: Wrt how much detail, more detail is always better 06:03:45 dino: examples are great 06:03:50 yamamoto has joined #CSS 06:04:01 dino: e.g. looking at your example, I think we implemented widows incorrectly 06:05:11 dc nots that books with short dialog hard to page, 1-line paras great, 3-line paras really hard 06:05:13 Ralph has joined #css 06:05:27 zqzhang___ has joined #css 06:05:32 bobby has joined #css 06:05:36 dc: 3/4 of a line stranded on top of page is not so bad as half a hyphenated word 06:05:51 dc: see that in ebooks often, it's noticeably bad 06:06:06 dino: Would also like to see examples of inline images. Never know what to do there 06:06:16 dino: Obviously never want to split an image across a page, ppl say that's bad 06:06:25 dino: But at what point is it better to put onn the page by itself, etc. 06:07:04 dsinger: might shift it down by some lines 06:07:09 kimwoonyoung has joined #css 06:07:11 fantasai: float: inline; ? 06:07:50 dc: Something that comes up a lot in higher-ed textbooks are elaborate series of rules for placement of images and ancillary text. Howe far ca they move away from their reference? What er best practices for stacking floats? 06:07:59 dc: Want to document these and similar issues 06:08:09 Markus; ON the topic of issues to cover or not, discussing scope at high level 06:08:36 Markus: Want to ask thisare there thing sthat we should focus on or omit that would help right now 06:08:46 Markus: What topics would you like us to prioritize? 06:09:13 SteveZ: one that's currently under discussion is footnotes and their treatment in various columnization strategies would be useful 06:09:31 SteveZ: Another I noticed is captions. Number of different strategies for handling captions, esp when not around the image 06:09:37 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 06:10:10 ChrisL: Another thing would be things which are used in print but are also used not in print, and would therefore benefit everyone, that books do better but everyone would appreciate 06:10:21 ChrisL: Would help generate interest for implementers not focused on books 06:10:45 dc: I worke don custom publishing system for textbooks where there were a lot of internal cross-references, e.g. "in next chapter we find x", no next chapter, what do you say 06:10:51 dc: Lots of intersting things to look at there 06:11:06 dino: Interesting to ge feedback on what digital book publishing concepts translate to world without pagination 06:11:14 dino: What then do you do with footnotes 06:11:27 fantasai: position: sticky! 06:11:33 myakura has joined #css 06:11:56 ChrisL: One characteristic is not just that it's scrollable, but also dynamic. Can just pop-up the reference, right there where you're reading it, rather than at the bottom of the page where you're not 06:12:10 ChrisL: but then you need to be able to shrae the markup 06:12:13 fantasai: stickily-positioned elements overlap, so that wouldn't fly for multiple footnotes 06:12:39 dino: Would also help for [...] 06:12:50 We need to fix the overlap issue for normal stickypos anyway. 06:12:54 Rayberg has joined #css 06:13:02 TabAtkins: it's a feature, not a bug 06:13:04 Bert: Would be helpful also to know fallbacks: if you cannot get the thing X that you really want, then what are alternative solutions that woudl be acceptible? 06:13:15 dc: If I can't get a unicorn, can I get a pony? 06:13:36 hober: Not quite. Having stickypos be able to push other stickypos out of the way is what's needed some times, but other times you want to stack them. 06:13:49 Markus: Back to pagination 06:13:52 Markus: Spreads, 06:13:58 Markus: Showing 2 pages at same time 06:14:02 cabanier has joined #css 06:14:12 Markus: Very often in textbooks, have boxes that occupy two pages of spread,e.g. an image 06:14:23 TabAtkins fantasai: i suspect wanting things-with-funky-layout to avoid other things-with-funky-layout is orthogonal to the form of funky layout 06:14:26 markus: are spread behaviors something to go into detail on, or not? 06:14:38 Frex, lots of

s on a page with no
elements, overlapping *kinda* works, but not really - transparent backgrounds or different heights ruin it. You want them to push each other out of the wya. 06:15:03 But you want an

to stack under the

, and be pushed away by the following

or

. 06:15:08 lmclist__ has joined #css 06:15:18 dc: .... 06:15:23 dc: More print-specific than other things here 06:15:31 dc: that apply to paginated view in ebook reader 06:15:34 cabanier2 has joined #css 06:15:43 dc: On the other hand, spreads are kindof like columns, who knows 06:16:02 SteveZ: Still have issue of figures that cross 06:16:26 SteveZ: Is there much of a difference then? 06:16:45 Liam: If you think of a spread as unit you're look ing at at the same time, and consider brochures, 06:16:45 zhouchao has joined #css 06:16:52 Liam: then you might have a 6-page spread 06:16:58 Liam: So have to think a little beyond 2-page spreads 06:16:58 emalasky has joined #css 06:17:14 dc: See things like that in online learning: having thigns side-by-side proves to be a useful ocncept 06:17:28 koji has joined #css 06:17:45 r12a: spread .. differences in printing material 06:17:49 emalasky1 has joined #css 06:18:02 dino: Are you asking are footers and headers and gutters improtant in ebooks? Yes. 06:18:14 fantasai: well, gutters wouldn't be, but footers and headers would be 06:18:36 dc: headers/footers help reader identify context within a long work. Transcends type of media used to render the work 06:19:04 silvia1 has joined #css 06:19:17 dc side discussion of gutters and how to chop things like maps so they look good when rinted and bound 06:19:32 SteveZ: I think you've given us a good beginning, and strongly encourage you to keep going 06:19:41 SteveZ: Everything so far is valuable 06:20:03 dc: I'm in both WGs, so easy to talk to me. Appreciate comments/criticisms/whatever 06:20:11 cwdoh has joined #css 06:20:17 dc: look forwarfd to really interesting arguments on what pages are... 06:20:36 r12a: Any ideas on how XSL technologies map into things needed here/ 06:20:44 r12a: Can say anything about what CSS is doing? 06:20:45 leavero has joined #css 06:21:01 Liam: Not so easy to answer... 06:21:15 Liam: going forward, during paris f2f, asked about psosibility of starting a task force to do paged media work 06:21:24 kiki has joined #css 06:21:37 Liam: There was approval for that, but expect in the next couple weeks wrt task force within CSS WG 06:21:41 Liam: to discuss paged media things 06:21:52 Liam: Bigger quesiton wrt XSL:FO, we closed that working group 06:22:22 Liam: Partly because we have many people interested in CSSWG and almost no one joining XSL WG 06:22:27 Liam: ... 06:22:36 Liam: Hopefully we will be pushing forward on areas of CSS that do these things 06:23:07 jeff has joined #css 06:23:29 cwdoh has joined #css 06:23:46 ... 06:23:59 [silence] 06:24:19 cabanier has joined #css 06:24:25 plh has joined #css 06:24:28 dc: So, we're eager to continue on this work and will do what we can to help CSSWG 06:24:33 dc: Thank you for your time and attention 06:24:45 Bert: Before we close, next step? Can we have more often joint sessions? 06:24:47 bobby has joined #css 06:24:52 Bert: to keep up to date on each others progress 06:25:12 dc: Maybe we can work out some communication method or status update between the groups 06:25:41 Markus: ... 06:25:52 Markus: can dod osmehting like today, but more focused on a particulare issue / area 06:26:21 dc invites ppl to join DigiPub IG 06:26:27 Topic closed. 06:27:00 zakim, code? 06:27:00 the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fantasai 06:27:41 zakim, who is here? 06:27:41 On the phone I see Wuzhou_east, TabAtkins 06:27:41 zakim, who is on the phone? 06:27:42 On IRC I see plh, cwdoh, jeff, kiki, silvia1, emalasky1, koji, lmclist__, Rayberg, myakura, ijongcheol, kimwoonyoung, zqzhang___, Ralph, yamamoto, kawabata2, Dongwon, kennyluck, 06:27:42 ... satakagi, Rossen_, dwim, hayato_, cyril, rhauck, jet, leif, israelh 06:27:42 On the phone I see Wuzhou_east, TabAtkins 06:28:06 I can partially hear the room, yeah. 06:28:12 Ralph has left #css 06:28:18 Topic: Outline properties 06:28:22 Ralph has joined #css 06:28:31 Ralph has left #css 06:29:07 krit: Would like to discuss outline property 06:29:24 krit: Right now spec says that everypainted thing gets filtered/ blended 06:29:47 krit: Turns out that outline property is also used for focus rings, and that is very important a11y, for this reason, seems not sueful to have the focus ring be filtered etc. 06:29:53 emalasky1 has left #css 06:29:55 emalasky1 has joined #css 06:29:56 krit: Should masking/filters/blending not affect the focus ring 06:30:03 dino: what about scrollbars? 06:30:13 krit: Good question, right now even scrollbars are affected 06:30:34 TabAtkins: ... more general issue 06:30:40 TabAtkins: also issue of 3d transforms 06:30:49 TabAtkins: Problem is authors often use as extra border effect 06:31:28 krit: So you're saying that outlines should be part of rendering, not a11y? 06:31:30 dauwhe has joined #css 06:31:39 dbaron: were you talking about outline with scrollbars, or scrollbars with filters? 06:31:42 krit: latter 06:31:50 zhouchao has joined #css 06:31:54 krit: I was just focused on outline, but Dean asked what about things like scrollbars 06:32:12 krit: So now we can ask, shoudl filters/blending affect outline/scrollbars 06:32:37 Right. While impls use 'outline' to do focus ring, *authors* use 'outline' as a second border. 06:32:38 krit: So key question is outline same as focus ring? 06:32:54 And so treating 'outline' as a focus/a11y thing ends up breaking author use. 06:32:58 zcorpan has joined #css 06:33:07 dbaron: 2.1 is interesting in a few ways, one is that it actually gives two different options for where outline property can be drawn in painting order 06:33:15 shepazu has joined #css 06:33:22 mgylling has joined #css 06:33:23 ChrisL has joined #css 06:33:25 dbaron: I think that was despite all implementations using one of them, though I think because preference was for impls to switch to other one 06:33:29 I think we should just make focus outlines separate and not controllable by authors, only by browser/user prefs. 06:33:44 dbaron: I think outline property was intended to do focus rings 06:33:54 dbaron: So should do focus ring sright, and if happens to work for other things ifne 06:34:09 dbaron: But we get push back from authors when we do things for making focus rings work right 06:34:22 cwdoh has joined #css 06:34:24 s/ring sright/rings right/ 06:34:26 liam has joined #css 06:34:29 s/ifne/fine/ 06:34:43 dbaron: If I had done things scratch, I would have made focus ring a pseudo-element with a small set of properties that could apply 06:35:03 krit: Still have question of whether focus ring should be can affected by filters 06:35:06 -Wuzhou_east 06:35:22 zakim, dial wuzhou_east 06:35:22 ok, TabAtkins; the call is being made 06:35:24 +Wuzhou_east 06:35:50 ack wu 06:36:10 kawabata2 has joined #css 06:36:17 krit: Do we want to discuss focus and outline, or masking 06:36:32 sgalineau has joined #css 06:36:34 dsinger has joined #css 06:36:47 nvdbleek has joined #css 06:37:05 ScribeNick: SimonSapin 06:37:20 ivan has joined #css 06:37:25 sgalineau has joined #css 06:37:30 krit: I would like to start with a11y of masking & filters 06:37:44 nikos has joined #css 06:38:01 ivan has left #css 06:38:04 krit: who thinks a11y of scrollbars on focus rings are a problem? 06:38:28 plinss: I think filter effects on scroll bars is asking for troubles 06:38:40 satakagi has left #css 06:38:50 satakagi has joined #css 06:38:58 dino: Filters can change position of elemets 06:39:08 krit: yes 06:39:10 ChrisL has joined #css 06:39:43 Scrollbars have long been stylable already, which has potentially bad effects on a11y. 06:39:43 dbaron: it is a problem for filters to not affect these things 06:39:53 (I'm planning to go ahead and spec that at some point soon.) 06:40:03 So I don't see the problem with letting filters affect them too. 06:40:06 dbaron has joined #css 06:40:06 _ and it may be a problem for them to affect these things 06:40:34 krit: I don’t see a problem with letting filter effects affect them too 06:40:46 krit: that doesn’t need to be specified because it’s already the case 06:40:51 WebKit/Blink/IE all let you arbitrarily style scrollbars. 06:41:18 krit: scrollbars are different from focus rings 06:41:48 krit: impl, Firefox and Webkit do in most cases 06:41:56 krit: there is an exceeption for SVG 06:42:42 krit: HTML, we do filter and mask focus ring 06:42:49 krit: Firefox does it for SVG 06:43:13 krit: Firefox applies focus ring on everything 06:43:19 http://codepen.io/adobe/pen/wLrxu 06:43:47 krit: IE does filter and clip the focus ring 06:43:57 krit: interop between IE and Firefox 06:44:12 krit: do we see a negative effect on a11y? do we care? 06:44:29 plinss: potential negative effect, we may want to control 06:44:46 I care, but I don't think that making an exception for 'outline' is the solution. I think we should disconnect focus ring from 'outline' and just deal with it. 06:44:47 plinss: filter different parts/layer of elements, maybe UI widgets is just another layer 06:45:06 zcorpan_ has joined #css 06:45:12 plinss: let it apply for now, later have ability to control 06:45:18 ChrisL has joined #css 06:45:24 krit: resolve on that? 06:45:26 That way focus rings can be more accurate/useful when 3d transformed, etc. 06:45:31 +1 06:45:54 Bert: don’t have a solution 06:46:16 Bert: concern. 2 kinds of applications. Fancy applications with filters and everything, want control 06:46:25 AndroUser2 has joined #css 06:46:27 AndroUser2 has joined #css 06:46:32 Bert: other hand, reading a document. Don’t want scrollbars to change 06:46:44 Bert: would interfere with ability to read the document 06:47:00 Bert: control to the user or author? 06:47:16 Bert: switch "I don’t want the author to interfere" 06:47:39 If you're reading a document, and the author's screwing with scrollbars, that's a broken document. ^_^ 06:47:45 Bert: for myself, go fullscreen for readability. Lost if scrollbars are not there 06:48:17 ChrisL: author precedence vs. user precedence, solved with ua, author and user stylesheets 06:48:34 ChrisL: you should be able to switch with user stylesheets 06:48:55 * { filter: none; } 06:49:07 dwim has joined #css 06:49:16 * { filter: none; /* I just want to read a document, dammit. */ } 06:49:20 Bert: not goo enouhg both way. Filter on scrollback ,but still no control on width of the scrollbar. Already not good enough 06:49:28 ChrisL has joined #css 06:49:36 krit: not just filters, all effects 06:50:03 krit: fine if we want to fix it in the future to make sites more accessible 06:50:11 dwim has joined #css 06:50:17 AndroUser2 has joined #css 06:50:17 Authors can ruin your document reading/scrolling experience already, in plenty of ways, if they're hostile or incompetent. 06:50:19 Bert: even in document mode, some filters might be useful, but for content only 06:50:24 lmcliste_ has joined #css 06:50:35 ChrisL has joined #css 06:50:39 body { overflow: hidden; }, and do all scrolling in JS. 06:50:52 krit: now, no resolution for this. Do we want in issue in the spec? 06:50:54 overflow:hidden;height:100%; 06:51:00 krit: address the issue later? 06:51:12 zhouchao has joined #css 06:51:26 plinss: we can defer, but let’s solve if we can 06:52:08 krit: we can solve it by saying "it should never affect" or "should affect", Bert wants more control 06:52:20 plinss: we can add controls in the future 06:52:34 plinss: can we live without it for a while? 06:53:03 Again, filters are but one way someone can incompetently ruin someone's experience. It's nothing new, nor is it particularly easy to misuse. We're worrying too much about this. 06:53:06 plinss: also concerns, filter on scrollbar may or may not be useful. Do we want to clip? Does it make scrollbars unreachable? 06:54:11 [dbaron reads TabAtkins’s comments] 06:55:05 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 06:55:23 plinss: can we resolve than filters just affect UI? 06:55:34 plinss: as some point work on controls 06:55:45 +1 06:55:48 fantasai: leave undefined 06:56:22 dbaron: no need 06:56:45 RESOLVED: Effects affect scrollbars and focus rings. We may work on controls later 06:57:33 glazou has joined #css 06:57:53 bobby has joined #css 06:58:34 dauwhe_ has joined #css 06:58:38 kennyluck has joined #css 06:59:01 Topic: VTT ::cue pseudo-element 06:59:28 dbaron has joined #css 07:00:20 plinss: as long as they inform us of this is happening, we’re ok with TTML WG working on this 07:00:48 RESOLVED: CSSWG is find with TTMLWG working on this, with ongoing feedback 07:01:06 s/find/fine 07:01:30 (yes, thanks glazou) 07:02:21 (discussing topics) 07:02:50 party!! 07:02:52 plinss: sounds like we’re out of agenda for today 07:03:14 hen is the DigiPub discussion ? already done ? 07:03:16 dino: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-decor-3/#text-decoration-skip-property 07:03:25 fantasai: counter styles? 07:03:30 glazou, yes. it is done. 07:03:34 glargl 07:03:38 fantasai: correcting things in the algorithms 07:03:46 MoZ has joined #css 07:03:51 btoews has joined #css 07:03:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0378.html 07:04:16 fantasai: about Hebrew, to support 1000 07:04:31 fantasai: need a group separator feature 07:04:42 That's not the open issue. 07:04:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:04:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-css-minutes.html glazou 07:04:47 jeff has joined #css 07:04:50 fantasai: lots of digits valid in English, separator needed in Hebrew 07:04:54 lmcliste_ has joined #css 07:05:06 fantasai: spec has no separators now, limits hebrew to small numbers 07:05:23 The Hebrew style is acceptable to everyone as it is right now. 07:05:27 fantasai: could add the feature, solves Hebrew and allows comma for English 07:05:36 The only remaining issue is some feedback about Chinese and Korean informal styles. 07:05:37 fantasai: do it now, or defer 07:05:47 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 07:05:47 Defer! 07:06:00 kimwoonyoung has joined #css 07:06:20 cabanier has joined #css 07:06:23 SteveZ: commenter said he’d never seem numbers beyond that limitation 07:06:29 TabAtkins, there was some fishtank bubble noise coming out of the speaker, but not words 07:06:32 SteveZ: +1 for Tab’s defer 07:06:39 Cool. 07:07:01 plinss: anyone against deferring? 07:07:25 plinss: so we can’t do commas in Latin? Seems like an oversight 07:07:53 fantasai: not hard to do. " ", then we don’t have to deal with this spec for 10 years 07:07:54 (Add a note somewhere to say the system is known to be unsatisfactory for Hebrew beyond 400?) 07:07:59 cwdoh has joined #css 07:08:03 Here's the only issue that's still open: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/issues-lc-20130718.html#issue-11 07:08:08 SteveZ: is it clear what happens with separators in all counter styles 07:08:22 It would be cool if some Korean and Chinese speakers there at TPAC could review it. 07:08:27 dbarons: if we do English commas, people will want to do Inidian style grouping 07:08:43 TabAtkins, defer on "not enough technical details" ground 07:08:46 koji, ^ 07:09:04 You can fake English commas up to 10k, same as I fake the CJK styles. 07:09:22 dbaron_ has joined #css 07:09:24 SteveZ: standard large number for Indian is 100k, "lakh", they don’t count in millions 07:09:29 That's more than enough. We *really* don't need to optimize for a counter style displaying 1billion. 07:10:09 why not ? 07:10:09 additive-symbols: "10," 10000, "9," 9000, etc. 07:10:24 cabanier1 has joined #css 07:10:29 glazou, in ordered lists and page numbers? 07:10:34 right 07:10:36 glazou: Because then I'd need to basically specify CLDR? 07:10:53 Which is a cool idea, but not something I'm interested in for this spec. 07:11:02 I can perfectly imagine an ordered list of 6 billions human beings in an XML instance 07:11:24 at least Tab's noise sounds like muffled human speech this time 07:11:26 ChrisL has joined #css 07:11:32 TabAtkins: words words words words 07:11:47 glazou: I challenge you to display a list of 6 billion in a browser. 07:12:02 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 07:12:02 plinss: not hearing interest, defer? 07:12:06 Particularly with Blink/WebKit's terrible, terrible O(n^2) counter implementation. 07:12:09 (it was more like words words words words whatevah) 07:12:12 6 billion *names of god* get it right 07:12:13 I challenge you to be able to think of a browser doing partial rendering 07:12:22 Yes, #11 is still open. Please find Korean and Chinese speakers and point them at it. 07:12:28 No reason to talk about it right now. 07:12:33 agreed 07:12:50 glazou: 6 billion DOM nodes'll still eat your entire computer's RAM> 07:13:03 today's computer RAM, sure 07:13:09 You people are IN CHINA. I think you can find a few. 07:13:14 and my or your computer's ram 07:13:19 dbaron_: issue tracking link at the top of the spec links to no issues in Bugzilla 07:13:22 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles-3/ says "Issue Tracking" -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Counter%20Styles&product=CSS&resolution=--- -> "Zarro Boogs Found" 07:13:25 in R&D or NSA, not an issue 07:13:31 cwdoh_ has joined #css 07:13:53 could you give us a URL for issue 11? 07:13:55 or stars in the sky, more poetic :-) 07:13:58 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/issues-lc-20130718#issue-11 07:14:00 dbaron_: Yeah, I wasn't listing the LC issues in bugzilla. 07:14:03 I did: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/issues-lc-20130718.html#issue-11 07:14:03 since the "Issue Tracking" link at the top of the spec doesn't seem to be useful 07:14:29 ChrisL has joined #css 07:14:33 Jirka has joined #css 07:14:43 so it's pi time in shenzhen and you already exhausted agenda? 07:14:51 fantasai: we’ll track down some native speakers for issue 11 07:15:13 glazou: the rest of the agenda requires people who will be present tomorrow 07:15:17 Nah, there's enough translators around to work. 07:15:19 ok 07:15:35 I can ask Bobby for Chinese, Tab, can you ask Jungshik for Korean? 07:15:43 Hey hey, quick agenda+: new WD of Grid! 07:15:51 plinss: come back to this tomorrow? 07:16:17 fantasai: new agenda item: Tab wants updated WD for Grip 07:16:18 TabAtkins, did you add all the examples and diagrams for abspos yet/ 07:16:19 Grid 07:16:23 ? 07:16:31 Nope! 07:16:36 CSS Grip Module. 07:16:37 ok, then, let's get that done first :) 07:16:39 can't publish this week anyway 07:16:49 dauwhe has joined #css 07:17:05 ACTION GLAZOU TO ASK KOREA ABOUT CSS 07:17:05 Created ACTION-594 - Ask korea about css [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-11-18]. 07:17:10 fantasai: zhiqiang zhang is sitting on the meeting tomorrow - he was at ttwf and is strong bilingual 07:17:13 plinss: adjourned for the day 07:17:30 TabAtkins, LOL 07:17:32 dbaron_: do your edits and action items so we have more tomorrow 07:17:47 thanks ChrisL ;-) 07:18:16 plinss, I have an agenda item 07:18:24 TOO LATE 07:18:28 ALREADY AT THE BAR 07:18:34 ? 07:18:44 oh, *now* you fly to china 07:18:52 see my last message to w3c-css-wg , can we consider that implem as valid for css 3 ui ? 07:19:13 very special circumstances 07:19:24 glazou, I believe it could be but currently we group all webkit together so our tooling would not 07:19:37 AndroUser has joined #css 07:19:42 I know the issue behind tooling 07:19:55 but the spec currently lists constraints on implem s 07:19:57 /msg fantasai 07:19:57 TabAtkins, can you write down an email with a handful of numbers (in European digits) that would demonstrate the rules? 07:19:59 but it would be webkit 1, presto 1 so that is 2 07:20:19 TabAtkins, it'd be pretty easy to survey people that way; asking them about rules is often confusing though 07:20:26 fantasai: Yeah, sure. I'll get it done tomorrow my time, while you're sleeping. 07:20:34 kk 07:20:41 krijnh has joined #css 07:20:50 I mean, just take the existing table of examples, throw in a bit more numbers with zeros and 1 and groups and oh my. 07:20:53 ChrisL: We also have a SmartTV implementation on WebKit, so that's WebKit 2, Presto 1 07:20:54 That kind fo thing. 07:21:16 zcorpan has joined #css 07:21:32 (I think SmartTV is independent. If the Samsung impl is new, it is.) 07:21:35 we will contribute the tests this week 07:21:58 leif, yes 07:22:29 leif, 16 tests per property, some are yours, some are new, some cleaned up 07:22:50 glazou: sounds like sweet stuff! 07:23:16 we want to remove nav-up/left/down/right from at-risk list ASAP 07:24:09 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 07:25:00 adjourned apparently 07:25:05 cwdoh has joined #css 07:25:20 AndroUser2 has joined #css 07:25:43 AndroUser2 has joined #css 07:25:49 dsinger has joined #css 07:26:27 emalasky has joined #css 07:26:59 wow, not a lot was said during didipub joint meeting except on dauwhe's document 07:27:06 surprising 07:27:46 but since everyone's already AT THE BAR !!! 07:27:49 ;-) 07:28:53 AndroUser2 has joined #css 07:29:17 glazou, yeah, that was surprising. I thought the joint meeting would take long. 07:29:27 sigh kennyluck 07:31:30 koji has joined #css 07:32:41 teoli has joined #css 07:33:07 bobby has joined #css 07:33:29 taocai has joined #css 07:33:36 -TabAtkins 07:38:22 btoews has joined #css 07:39:17 LOL @ https://twitter.com/lmclister/status/399706258132856832 07:39:34 kimwoonyoung has joined #css 07:40:51 Dongwon has joined #css 07:41:05 Dongwon has left #css 07:41:19 cwdoh has joined #css 07:42:46 AndroUser2 has joined #css 07:47:52 cwdoh_ has joined #css 07:49:47 satakagi has left #css 07:51:43 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 07:52:34 Ms2ger has joined #css 07:56:41 koji has joined #css 07:57:37 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 07:59:16 hayato_ has joined #CSS 07:59:33 AndroUser2 has joined #css 07:59:50 koji has joined #css 08:08:31 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 08:09:03 the dpub room is stiflingly hot - need to find a way of piping heat from here to CSS room 08:14:02 -Wuzhou_east 08:14:03 Team_(css)04:31Z has ended 08:14:03 Attendees were Wuzhou_east, TabAtkins 08:15:37 btoews has joined #css 08:18:37 nvdbleek has joined #css 08:19:08 liam has joined #css 08:19:08 nikos has joined #css 08:19:20 myakura has joined #css 08:19:56 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 08:22:32 btoews has joined #css 08:25:38 teoli has joined #css 08:26:20 ijongche_ has joined #CSS 08:27:42 tobie has joined #css 08:32:14 zcorpan has joined #css 08:34:38 cabanier has joined #css 08:36:34 koji_ has joined #css 08:43:40 koji has joined #css 08:49:02 plh has joined #css 08:50:04 kiki has joined #css 08:53:22 kennyluck has joined #css 08:56:35 Bert: http://www.kspaintings.com/diagrams-css/html/anonymous-block-boxes.html 08:57:18 michou has joined #css 09:00:00 teoli has joined #css 09:00:22 teoli_ has joined #css 09:04:33 jet has joined #css 09:05:18 bobby has left #css 09:07:16 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 09:07:52 silvia has joined #css 09:08:16 kiki has joined #css 09:08:49 dwim has joined #css 09:09:49 dwim has joined #css 09:09:55 rhauck has joined #css 09:11:16 ijongche_ has joined #CSS 09:11:32 rhauck1 has joined #css 09:16:27 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 09:18:40 dsinger has joined #css 09:20:46 hayato_ has joined #CSS 09:22:03 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 09:23:04 nikos has joined #css 09:25:28 michou has joined #css 09:29:38 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 09:32:21 michou has joined #css 09:35:49 cwdoh has joined #css 09:36:21 kiki has left #css 09:36:36 cabanier has joined #css 09:38:03 kimwoonyoung has joined #css 09:38:59 cwdoh has joined #css 09:39:17 file:///Users/dschulze/Documents/hg/FXTF/geometry/Overview.html#DOMRect 09:39:31 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 09:39:34 http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMRect 09:40:28 rhauck has joined #css 09:40:45 r12a has joined #css 09:41:55 ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home 09:42:19 cwdoh_ has joined #css 09:44:28 taocai has left #css 09:44:47 btoews has joined #css 09:45:39 Bert: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0173.html 09:50:37 silvia has joined #css 09:53:26 rhauck has joined #css 09:56:39 lmcliste_ has joined #css 09:56:46 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 09:57:32 silvia has joined #css 09:58:33 rhauck1 has joined #css 10:07:03 cabanier has joined #css 10:08:32 emalasky has joined #css 10:09:13 jet has joined #css 10:09:17 Zakim has left #css 10:13:23 tobie has joined #css 10:17:46 glenn has joined #css 10:22:18 silvia1 has joined #css 10:28:48 michou has joined #css 10:31:29 leaverou: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0156.html ? 10:31:36 glenn has joined #css 10:31:50 fantasai: looking 10:38:33 fantasai: Chrome is not doing the "mathematically correct thing", it's just rounding the radius to 0 10:38:56 and rendering the shadow with 0 radius. Firefox supports supixel lengths, but obviously it also has some precision limits 10:39:17 fantasai: (b) would be a nice solution if it was like this from the beginning, but I'm afraid it's too late for that now 10:39:27 and I think that's what most of the WG will say too 10:41:57 leaverou: the two places incompatibility will show up 10:42:08 leaverou: one is the CSSOM -- border-radius would no longer return 0 as the initial value 10:42:33 leaverou: other is the shape of spread shadows when an author has explicitly *reset* border-radius to zero 10:42:43 leaverou: I'm not sure how common those cases are 10:42:52 resetting border-radius to 0 is very common, box-shadow spread not so much 10:42:58 are you sure these are the only cases? 10:43:05 yeah 10:43:09 it's only affecting spread 10:43:13 when border-radius is zero 10:43:18 in terms of rendering 10:44:00 [bert notes that animating to/from the initial value will break] 10:46:41 koji has joined #css 10:47:09 liam has joined #css 10:54:57 teoli has joined #css 10:55:27 michou has joined #css 10:58:17 jdaggett has joined #css 11:12:55 plinss: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0607.html 11:17:12 dbaron has joined #css 11:19:25 darktears has joined #css 11:19:51 darktears has joined #css 11:30:03 myakura has joined #css 11:48:57 darktears has joined #css 12:06:31 michou has joined #css 12:10:40 zcorpan has joined #css 12:11:11 nvdbleek has joined #css 12:49:57 darktears has joined #css 12:53:12 dauwhe has joined #css 13:20:23 zcorpan_ has joined #css 13:24:20 michou has joined #css 13:49:48 nvdbleek has joined #css 13:51:44 cwdoh has joined #css 14:04:49 stakagi has joined #css 14:15:23 jet has joined #css 14:19:57 cwdoh has joined #css 14:20:49 ijongcheol has joined #CSS 14:22:57 teoli has joined #css 14:28:20 cwdoh_ has joined #css 14:39:10 silvia has joined #css 14:42:36 cwdoh has joined #css 14:43:42 kimwoonyoung has joined #css 14:44:04 nvdbleek has joined #css 14:45:13 zcorpan has joined #css 14:45:23 silvia1 has joined #css 14:49:14 dauwhe has joined #css 15:08:03 silvia has joined #css 15:20:08 dauwhe has joined #css 15:22:34 rhauck has joined #css 15:39:23 nvdbleek has joined #css 15:48:53 dsinger has joined #css 15:53:49 cwdoh has joined #css 16:11:10 rhauck1 has joined #css 16:14:22 myakura has joined #css 16:17:03 nvdbleek has joined #css 16:23:52 emalasky has joined #css 16:25:17 dauwhe has joined #css 16:30:18 darktears has joined #css 16:30:27 lmcliste_ has joined #css 16:40:31 nvdbleek has joined #css 16:46:32 Ms2ger: That seems unlikely. 16:48:02 darktears has joined #css 16:51:09 rhauck has joined #css 16:52:46 rhauck1 has joined #css 16:54:10 darktears has joined #css 16:57:13 silvia has joined #css 16:57:15 teoli has joined #css 17:10:45 darktears has joined #css 17:12:04 lmcliste_ has joined #css 17:19:33 emalasky1 has joined #css 17:25:50 dauwhe has joined #css 17:33:24 jcraig has joined #css 17:37:23 teoli_ has joined #css 18:26:17 dauwhe has joined #css 18:31:07 teoli has joined #css 18:48:31 nvdbleek has joined #css 18:58:20 teoli has joined #css 19:09:25 myakura has joined #css 19:26:49 dauwhe has joined #css 19:41:57 teoli has joined #css 19:45:26 jcraig has joined #css 19:59:28 glenn_ has joined #css 20:14:02 myakura has joined #css 20:27:23 dauwhe has joined #css 20:44:33 mgylling has joined #css 20:46:28 jdaggett has joined #css 20:51:13 antonp has joined #css 21:14:26 myakura has joined #css 21:27:49 dauwhe has joined #css 21:35:45 lar_zzz has joined #css 21:42:38 ChrisL has joined #css 21:51:02 jdaggett has joined #css 22:05:01 jet has joined #css 22:14:51 myakura has joined #css 22:26:10 silvia has joined #css 22:28:22 dauwhe has joined #css 22:31:57 dauwhe_ has joined #css 22:32:51 arronei has joined #css 22:36:19 myakura has joined #css 22:50:08 mgylling has joined #css 23:25:37 rhauck has joined #css