IRC log of svg on 2013-10-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:29:21 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #svg
- 20:29:21 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/03-svg-irc
- 20:29:23 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 20:29:23 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #svg
- 20:29:25 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
- 20:29:25 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM already started
- 20:29:26 [trackbot]
- Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
- 20:29:26 [trackbot]
- Date: 03 October 2013
- 20:29:41 [Zakim]
- + +49.341.263.2.aabb
- 20:29:45 [krit]
- krit has joined #svg
- 20:29:59 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 20:30:09 [ed]
- Zakim, [IP is me
- 20:30:09 [Zakim]
- +ed; got it
- 20:30:32 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 20:30:37 [Zakim]
- + +61.2.980.5.aacc
- 20:30:55 [stakagi]
- zakim, +??P9 is me
- 20:30:55 [Zakim]
- sorry, stakagi, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9'
- 20:31:07 [Zakim]
- +Doug_Schepers
- 20:31:08 [krit]
- Zakim, who is on the call?
- 20:31:08 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see +1.425.373.aaaa, +49.341.263.2.aabb, ed, ??P9, +61.2.980.5.aacc, Doug_Schepers
- 20:31:10 [nikos]
- Zakim, +61.2 is me
- 20:31:10 [Zakim]
- +nikos; got it
- 20:31:23 [krit]
- Zakim, aabb is me
- 20:31:23 [Zakim]
- +krit; got it
- 20:31:49 [ed]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013OctDec/0003.html
- 20:31:50 [Zakim]
- +cabanier
- 20:32:10 [stakagi]
- zakim, ??P9 is me
- 20:32:10 [Zakim]
- +stakagi; got it
- 20:33:09 [ed]
- Zakim, +1.425 is thomas
- 20:33:09 [Zakim]
- +thomas; got it
- 20:34:05 [ed]
- chair: ed
- 20:34:20 [cabanier]
- scribenick: cabanier
- 20:34:32 [ed]
- regrets: CL, Luc, Cyril, heycam, brian, rich
- 20:34:48 [cabanier]
- topic: TPAC 2013 dial-in
- 20:35:09 [cabanier]
- ed: does anyone need to dial in to TPAC so we can ask for conference equipment
- 20:35:18 [cabanier]
- krit: who is not going?
- 20:35:22 [Zakim]
- +??P14
- 20:35:34 [Tav]
- zakim, 14 is me
- 20:35:34 [Zakim]
- sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '14'
- 20:35:52 [Tav]
- zakim, ??P14 is me
- 20:35:52 [Zakim]
- +Tav; got it
- 20:35:54 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: I'm not
- 20:36:05 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: yes. I should dial in
- 20:36:34 [cabanier]
- ed: in that case, let us know what topics so we can schedule them
- 20:37:43 [nikos]
- http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20131114&p1=240&p2=1232&p3=234
- 20:38:16 [cabanier]
- ed: I'll take an action to arrange conference equipment
- 20:38:47 [cabanier]
- ed: me and heycam will prepare topic
- 20:39:01 [cabanier]
- ed: please let us know and we'll put them on the wiki page
- 20:39:09 [stakagi]
- hi
- 20:39:23 [stakagi]
- Yes
- 20:39:34 [ed]
- s/prepare topic/prepare an agenda/
- 20:39:41 [cabanier]
- shepazu: it would be good to talk about mapping
- 20:40:05 [cabanier]
- topic: Modes of SVG SVG integration
- 20:40:14 [cabanier]
- link: https://svgwg.org/specs/integration/
- 20:40:25 [krit]
- https://svgwg.org/specs/integration/
- 20:40:42 [cabanier]
- krit: we have this spec and shepazu mentioned the intent
- 20:40:53 [cabanier]
- krit: I wonder if we need all these categories
- 20:41:16 [cabanier]
- krit: the only really important ones are secure mode and insecure mode
- 20:42:02 [cabanier]
- krit: I'm not sure if these details should be specified. the focus should be on security modes
- 20:42:13 [cabanier]
- krit: I think that should be the main focus
- 20:42:19 [cabanier]
- krit: I wanted to check
- 20:42:26 [cabanier]
- shepazu: why do you think that?
- 20:42:53 [cabanier]
- krit: because browsers don't want to go into these categories
- 20:43:04 [cabanier]
- krit: maybe you just want to support static mode
- 20:43:14 [cabanier]
- krit: it could depend on the device
- 20:43:32 [cabanier]
- shepazu: this is contrary to the requests from people
- 20:43:45 [cabanier]
- shepazu: they want different categories.
- 20:44:34 [cabanier]
- shepazu: implementors like inkscape don't offer declaritive animation
- 20:44:46 [cabanier]
- krit: for clarification, I'm fine with that
- 20:45:02 [cabanier]
- krit: features can be disabled by browsers.
- 20:45:27 [cabanier]
- krit: but they might not want to implement a certain category
- 20:45:47 [cabanier]
- shepazu: but this is what this specification should do
- 20:46:25 [cabanier]
- krit: we should say that there are modules and browsers can choose which ones they implement
- 20:46:55 [cabanier]
- shepazu: what's the harm in having categories?
- 20:47:50 [cabanier]
- shepazu: it harms svg if we don't have these
- 20:48:11 [cabanier]
- shepazu: 1. implementations are the consumer of this spec
- 20:48:43 [cabanier]
- shepazu: 2. other specifications are referencing this spec. so they have a category of what subset they support
- 20:48:53 [cabanier]
- krit: for me, security is the main part
- 20:49:15 [cabanier]
- krit: we can have secure and insecure and then have subcategories
- 20:49:44 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I have no problem with security being the prime category. there is animated and secure animated
- 20:50:20 [cabanier]
- shepazu: not everyone follows the spec. for instance css animation is applied
- 20:50:38 [cabanier]
- shepazu: so, security is ok to be the main mode, but why is that the most important one
- 20:51:04 [cabanier]
- krit: because security is the most pressing feature today
- 20:51:43 [cabanier]
- shepazu: the author/developer comes first for a spec.
- 20:52:14 [cabanier]
- shepazu: it's ok to make security the prime thing but others are needed as well to help authors
- 20:52:30 [cabanier]
- shepazu: there should be a secure/insecure mode for each target
- 20:53:47 [cabanier]
- shepazu: what I care about is that publisher want to know what the capabilites of the devices are
- 20:53:58 [cabanier]
- shepazu: this seems obvious
- 20:54:12 [cabanier]
- shepazu: it would be nice if someone can agree with me
- 20:54:48 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: I can see the value
- 20:55:15 [cabanier]
- shepazu: we should push implementations to these categories
- 20:55:25 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I'm ok with dropping unrealistic modes
- 20:55:45 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: so, if you target a mode, you implement everything for that mode?
- 20:55:47 [cabanier]
- shepazu: yes
- 20:56:11 [cabanier]
- krit: SVG fonts for instance can be optional so browser can choose
- 20:56:20 [cabanier]
- shepazu: optional features are bad ideas
- 20:56:32 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: they might weaken the status
- 20:56:58 [cabanier]
- krit: optional features can be a good idea
- 20:57:08 [cabanier]
- nikos: there are probably not that many optional features
- 20:57:23 [cabanier]
- nikos: so we'll probably only have a few modes
- 20:57:30 [cabanier]
- krit: right now, nothing is optional
- 20:58:03 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I think you associate scripting with a security mode
- 20:58:22 [cabanier]
- shepazu: the goal is to profile what the ua is trying to accomplish
- 20:58:54 [cabanier]
- krit: in the security mode you can't do scripting, but in insecure mode, you *could* do scripting
- 20:59:13 [cabanier]
- krit: for cors, it's different
- 20:59:43 [cabanier]
- krit: but in a security mode, you can load resources from external resources through script
- 21:00:03 [cabanier]
- shepazu: we should define that SVG needs to define CORs
- 21:00:11 [cabanier]
- krit: I agree and my main focus
- 21:00:41 [cabanier]
- shepazu: some people see a <use> reference external element as a security hole
- 21:00:46 [cabanier]
- krit: yes, it can be
- 21:01:13 [cabanier]
- krit: the intergration spec should say when you can use <use>
- 21:01:25 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I would decouple script and security
- 21:01:38 [cabanier]
- krit: yes, and we should specify what UA do
- 21:01:54 [cabanier]
- shepazu: yes, but we should also guide UA's if they do something silly
- 21:02:28 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I welcome that you fork the spec and do it from another angle so we can compare them
- 21:03:35 [cabanier]
- shepazu: if you can show that a mode is useless, we can remove them unless we can back them up with reality
- 21:03:59 [cabanier]
- topic: Hit testing SVG root
- 21:04:30 [cabanier]
- shepazu: if you have a <div> and you click on it
- 21:04:48 [ed]
- s/ed: please let us know and we'll put them on the wiki page/ed: please let us know what topics you'd like to discuss at TPAC (feel free to use the agenda request wikipage) and we'll put them on the agenda/
- 21:05:00 [cabanier]
- shepazu: and there 2 <p>'s and you click on the space between the <p>'s
- 21:05:05 [cabanier]
- shepazu: what happens?
- 21:05:28 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: I've added invisible object to work around that
- 21:05:38 [cabanier]
- krit: what do you want to have hit?
- 21:05:43 [cabanier]
- krit: what is the problem?
- 21:06:19 [cabanier]
- shepazu: what if I'm writing an application, and there's an SVG on top of the document and I want to click on a paragraph and annotate it
- 21:06:34 [cabanier]
- krit: so you want the svg to be ignore?
- 21:06:38 [cabanier]
- shepazu: yes
- 21:07:16 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I can see what you want to hit the svg root or just want to pass through
- 21:07:24 [cabanier]
- shepazu: is that the default behavior
- 21:08:08 [cabanier]
- krit: we had the same issue in webkit. if the svg had click through, it went to the background. authors didn't like it
- 21:08:18 [cabanier]
- shepazu: we should have both
- 21:08:33 [cabanier]
- shepazu: maybe by default, the svg root takes pointer events
- 21:08:57 [cabanier]
- shepazu: is unpainted one? no, it's bounding box
- 21:09:05 [cabanier]
- ed: that wouldn't cover the viewport
- 21:09:19 [cabanier]
- ed: if the root was empty for instance
- 21:09:30 [cabanier]
- shepazu: should we resolve this?
- 21:09:50 [cabanier]
- ThomasSmailus: yes. I'm running into this problem
- 21:10:06 [cabanier]
- shepazu: right now, SVG has a strange relation with backgrounds
- 21:11:22 [cabanier]
- krit: for an svg svg element we could say 'all'
- 21:11:26 [krit]
- https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/pointer-events
- 21:12:06 [cabanier]
- krit: if you look at the syntax. intiial is 'auto'. and you could say for svgsvgelement this means 'all'
- 21:13:52 [cabanier]
- krit: auto is not specified yet so we can do whatever we want
- 21:14:09 [cabanier]
- krit: it just happens to be implemented across all browsers
- 21:14:16 [cabanier]
- shepazu: how about nested svg elements
- 21:15:08 [cabanier]
- shepazu: could you have nested svg that would have different behavior
- 21:15:20 [cabanier]
- shepazu: or would it be the same as 'auto' on the root?
- 21:15:27 [cabanier]
- krit: not sure if we can differ
- 21:16:01 [cabanier]
- krit: on inner SVG elements
- 21:16:14 [cabanier]
- shepazu: if people think this is reasonable behavior
- 21:16:34 [cabanier]
- ed: we need test cases. It seems useful that you can pick a mode
- 21:17:32 [cabanier]
- shepazu: what is the best default? according to Dirk , webkit changed it to ...
- 21:17:44 [cabanier]
- shepazu: erik, what do you think?
- 21:18:13 [cabanier]
- ed: it really depends on your use case. usually I wanted the click to go through but that might not be the most common one
- 21:18:23 [cabanier]
- shepazu: I will write it up and do some testing
- 21:18:29 [cabanier]
- shepazu: and you can comment
- 21:18:51 [TabAtkins]
- Note as well that if you need to change the "initial value" for particular elements, you can just do that in the UA stylesheet. No need to actually mess with the spec.
- 21:18:51 [cabanier]
- topic: feImage and new crossOrigin attribute
- 21:19:07 [cabanier]
- krit: filter effects has a new security section
- 21:19:16 [krit]
- https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/index.html#fedisplacementmap-restrictions
- 21:19:17 [cabanier]
- krit: and this defines new behavior
- 21:19:28 [cabanier]
- krit: which makes it more complicated
- 21:19:49 [cabanier]
- krit: firefix knows about some issues and other browsers probably have it as well.
- 21:20:10 [cabanier]
- krit: color should not change behavior of timing because you can mount attacks otherwise
- 21:20:44 [cabanier]
- krit: fedisplacement map can be used to harvest information
- 21:21:16 [cabanier]
- krit: the specification is trying to identify filters which expose this risk
- 21:21:37 [cabanier]
- krit: feimage can reference external images which can have private information
- 21:22:06 [cabanier]
- krit: my idea is to have a cors attribute just like in the html image so you can specify the cors mode
- 21:22:27 [cabanier]
- krit: if it's set, you can use an feImage in a displacement map
- 21:22:59 [cabanier]
- ed: this sounds reasonable
- 21:23:30 [cabanier]
- ed: I was wondering about fetransform.
- 21:23:37 [cabanier]
- krit: it can take currentcolor
- 21:23:39 [ed]
- s/fetransform/feFlood/
- 21:24:29 [cabanier]
- ed: same origin would continue to work?
- 21:25:22 [cabanier]
- krit: probably yes
- 21:25:58 [cabanier]
- krit: my problem with same origin is that the spec is not there yet
- 21:26:15 [cabanier]
- krit: we can limit the restriction later
- 21:26:38 [cabanier]
- cabanier: will this break current behavior?
- 21:26:40 [cabanier]
- krit: yes
- 21:26:58 [krit]
- s/yes/probably/
- 21:27:03 [cabanier]
- krit: depending on the specs that are in progress
- 21:27:42 [cabanier]
- ed: can we reference it?
- 21:27:56 [cabanier]
- krit: it's in html5 from w3c
- 21:29:02 [cabanier]
- ed: I'm concerned with backward compatibility
- 21:29:09 [cabanier]
- krit: I will make a note
- 21:29:11 [cabanier]
- resolution: krit to add a crossOrigin attribute to feImage
- 21:29:43 [cabanier]
- topic: fx tf meetig in Seattle
- 21:29:53 [cabanier]
- krit: I will take care of planning
- 21:30:11 [cabanier]
- krit: mon-tues will be css. wed fxg and thurs-fri SVG
- 21:30:28 [Zakim]
- -Tav
- 21:30:29 [cabanier]
- krit: let me know if you have suggestions, please reply
- 21:31:21 [Zakim]
- -thomas
- 21:31:23 [Zakim]
- -Doug_Schepers
- 21:31:24 [Zakim]
- -nikos
- 21:31:25 [Zakim]
- -ed
- 21:31:27 [Zakim]
- -stakagi
- 21:31:28 [Zakim]
- -krit
- 21:31:42 [cabanier]
- ed: can you send out meeting notes?
- 21:32:35 [cabanier]
- thanks!
- 21:32:37 [ed]
- trackbot, end telcon
- 21:32:37 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 21:32:37 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been +1.425.373.aaaa, +49.341.263.2.aabb, [IPcaller], ed, +61.2.980.5.aacc, Doug_Schepers, nikos, krit, cabanier, stakagi, thomas, Tav
- 21:32:43 [Zakim]
- -cabanier
- 21:32:45 [Zakim]
- GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has ended
- 21:32:45 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.425.373.aaaa, +49.341.263.2.aabb, [IPcaller], ed, +61.2.980.5.aacc, Doug_Schepers, nikos, krit, cabanier, stakagi, thomas, Tav
- 21:32:45 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 21:32:45 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/03-svg-minutes.html trackbot
- 21:32:46 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 21:32:46 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items