IRC log of html-media on 2013-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-media
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/01-html-media-irc
14:45:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:45:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-media
14:45:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 63342
14:45:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:45:36 [trackbot]
Date: 01 October 2013
14:51:36 [johnsim]
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HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
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+[Microsoft]
14:54:09 [johnsim]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:54:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft]
14:54:17 [johnsim]
zakim, [microsoft] is me
14:54:17 [Zakim]
+johnsim; got it
14:58:03 [paulc]
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14:58:34 [paulc]
trackbot, start meeting
14:58:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:58:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 63342
14:58:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:58:39 [trackbot]
Date: 01 October 2013
14:58:57 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:58 [Zakim]
I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted
14:58:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see johnsim
14:59:08 [paulc]
zakim, what is the code?
14:59:08 [Zakim]
the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
14:59:13 [pal]
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+[Microsoft]
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+pal
15:00:34 [joesteele]
joesteele has joined #html-media
15:00:44 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has me
15:00:45 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:01:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.533.aaaa
15:01:04 [ddorwin]
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+Mark_Watson
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15:02:12 [pladd]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see johnsim, [Microsoft], pal, +1.760.533.aaaa, Mark_Watson
15:02:14 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:02:25 [pladd]
Zakim, aaaa is me
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+pladd; got it
15:02:44 [Zakim]
+[Adobe]
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.936.aabb
15:02:59 [joesteele]
Zakim, [Adobe] has joesteele
15:02:59 [Zakim]
+joesteele; got it
15:03:05 [ddorwin]
zakim, aabb is me
15:03:05 [Zakim]
+ddorwin; got it
15:03:24 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
15:03:33 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
15:03:33 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
15:03:40 [paulc]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Oct/0000.html
15:03:56 [paulc]
Open bug summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Oct/0001.html
15:05:31 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see johnsim, [Microsoft], pal, pladd, Mark_Watson, [Adobe], ddorwin, adrianba
15:05:33 [Zakim]
[Adobe] has joesteele
15:05:33 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:05:53 [johnsim]
TOPIC: Roll Call
15:06:08 [johnsim]
Topic: previous minutes
15:06:11 [johnsim]
no comments
15:06:20 [johnsim]
Topic: charter revision
15:06:45 [johnsim]
paulc: everyone needs to rejoin the working group
15:07:17 [johnsim]
paulc: have 45 days to decide
15:07:48 [paulc]
Rejoin request: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Oct/0000.html
15:08:02 [paulc]
rejoin link: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/join
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15:08:15 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
15:08:22 [adrianba]
q+
15:09:22 [adrianba]
ack me
15:09:46 [johnsim]
paulc: go to the page, ping your AC Rep by following the link.
15:10:06 [johnsim]
Topic: CfC for EME heartbeat
15:10:31 [johnsim]
closes today. So far no substantive objections, closes midnight Boston time
15:10:46 [markw]
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15:10:55 [markw]
Zakim, who is on the phone ?
15:10:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see johnsim, [Microsoft], pal, pladd, Mark_Watson, [Adobe], ddorwin, adrianba, [Microsoft.a]
15:10:56 [johnsim]
Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions Bugs
15:10:58 [Zakim]
[Adobe] has joesteele
15:10:58 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:11:02 [markw]
Zakim, Mark_Watson is me
15:11:02 [Zakim]
+markw; got it
15:11:36 [paulc]
See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Oct/0001.html
15:11:46 [johnsim]
Paulc: this is David's analysis
15:11:56 [paulc]
http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
15:12:03 [paulc]
21 bugs
15:13:35 [johnsim]
paulc: the history here, is that objection to CfC, to point to something broken in the heartbeat document, technical comments don't block, and these three bugs came from that type of response.
15:13:42 [johnsim]
paulc: are these duplicates?
15:13:51 [johnsim]
markw: i do not believe they are duplicates
15:13:54 [davide]
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15:14:20 [ddorwin]
q+
15:14:29 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23340
15:14:33 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23341
15:14:35 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23342
15:14:46 [Zakim]
+ +44.303.040.aacc
15:15:15 [johnsim]
ddorwin: should we remove the goals section, introduction to "here is what this does" and not sure it fits in the spec anymore
15:15:39 [johnsim]
paulc: let these rest for right now, but could you put that as comments on 23341 and 23342
15:15:41 [joesteele]
+1 to removing the goals
15:15:54 [paulc]
We'll leave this new bugs for now and return to these.
15:16:47 [johnsim]
subtopic: bugs for discussion/feedback
15:16:53 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/01-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
15:16:59 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21854
15:17:12 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:17:17 [joesteele]
q+
15:17:38 [ddorwin]
ack dd
15:18:44 [adrianba]
s/subtopic:/topic:/
15:18:53 [joesteele]
ack me
15:19:25 [johnsim]
adrianba: when i added the state transitions, three issues left unresolved, wanted to see if any more concrete feedback, and so this morning i replied...
15:19:36 [johnsim]
adrianba: in David summary, three resolutions:
15:19:58 [johnsim]
adrianba: key added, not clear under what circumstances it should fire - proposal is to remove
15:20:01 [ddorwin]
+1 to remove keyadded
15:20:22 [markw]
q+
15:20:28 [johnsim]
... way of interrogating what state it is in, but no general interest in this so okay to remove for now
15:20:56 [ddorwin]
+1 to deferring the state attribute unless/until we need it.
15:20:57 [johnsim]
adrianba: previous discussed transition from ready state to error state, was not clear when doing the editing under what circumstances that would be needed
15:21:26 [joesteele]
q+
15:21:44 [johnsim]
during playback, if you wanted to fire a key message, not clear if there is a reason to fire against the session or a playback error, so i am proposing to do nothing unless someone can propose text
15:21:52 [paulc]
ack mark
15:21:58 [johnsim]
markw: i think the state variable could be useful for debugging
15:22:33 [johnsim]
adrianba: that was kind of why i proposed it, but when it came to updating the spec i had a consensus of people who agreed
15:22:40 [paulc]
ack joe
15:23:10 [johnsim]
joesteele: two questions - i was one of the people arguing against the state variable, because we thought we could calculate state from application
15:23:31 [johnsim]
joesteele: how would you handle case of output protection failure during playback? against media key session
15:23:57 [markw]
@joesteele - I agree the app can calculate it, but having it explicit allows you to assert on whether the state is what you think it is - useful both for app debugging and UA testing
15:23:57 [johnsim]
adrianba: only errors against media key session are related to communication with the license server to acquire keys
15:24:26 [ddorwin]
q+
15:24:28 [johnsim]
adrianba: original reason for session was to correlate messages - so violation of output protections should be fired against the media elements
15:24:41 [johnsim]
joesteele: error codes on media element?
15:24:57 [adrianba]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#dom-media_err_encrypted
15:25:23 [johnsim]
adrianba: i thought we added media error encrypted - should fire when error with playback related encryption
15:25:39 [johnsim]
joesteele: should we not add this for the video tag?
15:25:55 [johnsim]
adrianba: this is an extension spec, so defined as an extension
15:25:57 [paulc]
ack dd
15:26:01 [joesteele]
q+
15:26:25 [johnsim]
ddorwin: encrypted media and I cannot play it. Media errors are fatal to playback.
15:27:06 [adrianba]
q+
15:27:43 [johnsim]
ddorwin: other than i don't know how to play this media, - as to where to add them, everywhere you can fire an error - probably say if there is some error fire a media key error
15:28:01 [paulc]
ack adr
15:28:32 [johnsim]
adrianba: first comment - if there is an examp;le of an error that fires in this state which is not terminal to playback, i would like to understand that a little better
15:28:56 [johnsim]
adrianba: in our implementation we determined that most of these "during playback error conditions" occurs has no correlation to a particular session
15:29:29 [johnsim]
adrianba: so we actually - meant we couldn't continue playback, so we use encrypted media error for this, only against sesssion when it is specifically session related
15:29:36 [ddorwin]
q+
15:29:40 [paulc]
ac joe
15:29:42 [johnsim]
adrianba: ready to error okay, but need text proposal
15:29:45 [paulc]
ack joe
15:30:06 [johnsim]
joesteele: output protection and domain error are two examples - domain - in a blackout situation, live stream i don't have rights for (part of)
15:30:22 [johnsim]
joesteele: one way is key error to force a new license acquisition
15:30:52 [adrianba]
q+
15:31:08 [johnsim]
joesteele: key rotation and license rotation - key is standard CAS model, minute or five minutes for - license rotation stream has ... different licensing group
15:31:42 [adrianba]
q-
15:32:13 [johnsim]
joesteele: signalling a domain in the non-CENC case
15:32:22 [paulc]
ack dd
15:32:52 [johnsim]
ddorwin: we have some - this change depends on clarity on key errors - maybe we should add it to that
15:33:07 [johnsim]
paulc: if we did that, adrian, could we close this bug
15:33:09 [joesteele]
+1 to removing the key added and moving the other issue to the remiaining error code bug
15:33:20 [joesteele]
s/remiaining/remaining/
15:33:53 [johnsim]
paulc: the answer to "remove key added" and "not adding a state variable" are okay, and ready to error added as a new bug
15:34:16 [johnsim]
adrianba: propose adding to 21798
15:34:18 [paulc]
Update 21798 with third item
15:34:53 [paulc]
Therefore after updating the spec we can close out 21854 with the addition of the error code item to 21798.
15:35:15 [johnsim]
paulc: next item for topics, 19809
15:35:31 [ddorwin]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19809
15:35:31 [joesteele]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19809
15:35:33 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19809
15:36:27 [johnsim]
ddorwin: part of the problem is whether to fire "key added", perhaps move Adrian's action on key added to this bug
15:36:40 [johnsim]
ddorwin: removed key added and that was the important thing
15:37:00 [johnsim]
ddorwin: remove all text when adding keys or events fired when adding keys
15:37:00 [adrianba]
q+
15:37:26 [adrianba]
q-
15:38:02 [paulc]
David will re-evaluate 19809 after Ade's changes 21854 are completed.
15:38:37 [joesteele]
q+
15:39:08 [paulc]
Bug 17202
15:39:12 [johnsim]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202
15:39:39 [johnsim]
joesteele: agree with intent of David's comment but runs contrary to the ability - you want to share keys to have a performant implementation
15:39:53 [adrianba]
q+
15:39:54 [johnsim]
joesteele: not sure how to solve but i don't think we want to be explicit about preventing it
15:40:14 [ddorwin]
q+
15:40:18 [paulc]
ack joe
15:40:26 [paulc]
ack adr
15:40:44 [johnsim]
adrianba: question how this bug relates to 21855
15:40:47 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21855
15:41:09 [johnsim]
joesteele: i was okay with what you proposed, my interpretation was it is allowed but not required to directly transition to the key ready state
15:41:43 [johnsim]
adrianba; two parts to my proposal - yes, allowed but not required - but second part, only optimization we call out and if you have two sessions which are related to fundementally the same key once you got to the ready state
15:42:12 [paulc]
ack dd
15:42:15 [johnsim]
if further need to interact - no further optimization - so we don't have to deal with the complex questions david asked
15:42:27 [adrianba]
s/adrianba;/adrianba:/
15:42:45 [johnsim]
ddorwin: my view of these two bugs - 855 being this optimization, mainly related to the same page, same init data multiple times,
15:43:02 [johnsim]
ddorwin: that is where we are avoiding network traffic, not the "i saved this key" case
15:43:38 [johnsim]
ddorwin: there is a clear leakage of information if you use a domain key the application is storing - so i would like to see Joe propose a way to do domain keys that avoids leaking information
15:43:49 [johnsim]
paulc: but that is a response to 202?
15:44:27 [johnsim]
joesteele: i will come up with some proposal there, my counter to that would be in all the situations - many - except some pathological situations
15:44:48 [johnsim]
when you have a domain key susceptible to the kind of sharing you have mentioned - can be shared on client or server
15:45:21 [paulc]
ACTION: joesteele to propose text for bug 17202 to propose how to share keys without leakage of information
15:45:21 [trackbot]
Error finding 'joesteele'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/users>.
15:45:26 [johnsim]
paulc: would like an action - propose how to share keys without leakage of information
15:46:11 [adrianba]
ACTION: joe to propose text for bug 17202 to propose how to share keys without leakage of information
15:46:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-40 - Propose text for bug 17202 to propose how to share keys without leakage of information [on Joe Steele - due 2013-10-08].
15:47:15 [adrianba]
ACTION-40 due 2013-10-15
15:47:15 [trackbot]
Set ACTION-40 Propose text for bug 17202 to propose how to share keys without leakage of information due date to 2013-10-15.
15:47:50 [paulc]
Bug 17682
15:47:54 [johnsim]
paulc: next is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682
15:47:56 [ddorwin]
specific comments: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682#c11
15:48:31 [johnsim]
paulc: walk through one at a time
15:48:48 [johnsim]
ddorwin: 1 is JWK versus JWK set
15:49:35 [johnsim]
ddorwin: mention key ID in the text - that they are base64 encoded, padded, and then more confusing one is the encoding
15:50:00 [johnsim]
ddorwin: it seems ASCI compatible compatible encoding means multiple things
15:50:05 [adrianba]
q+
15:50:19 [paulc]
ack adr
15:50:28 [johnsim]
adrianba: this is right out of the HTML5 spec, link to the definition of it in the HTML5 spec
15:50:28 [adrianba]
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#ascii-compatible-character-encoding
15:50:52 [johnsim]
ddorwin: definition is where we got confused - seemed overly complex
15:51:03 [johnsim]
paulc: difference of opinion - define by reference or inclusion -
15:51:29 [johnsim]
paulc: david's question is more a technical one - don't agree with the reference - can someone give a p;ointer to where this is in the spec
15:51:31 [adrianba]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#simple-decryption-clear-key
15:51:44 [johnsim]
s/p;ointer/pointer/
15:53:13 [Zakim]
-markw
15:53:59 [johnsim]
paulc: so you are challenging the reference - so David is questioning whether this is the right reference
15:54:30 [ddorwin]
there are 12 instances of "ASCII-compatible character encoding" in http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/single-page.html. All seem related to input or metadata.
15:54:38 [johnsim]
adrianba: i guess my overall thought on this bug is that some very specific proposal that David has on implementation experience, make these changes and point fix our way
15:55:07 [johnsim]
adrianba: propose - i am happy with this and take another look at the ASCII compatible encoding but not block on this
15:55:08 [ddorwin]
q+
15:55:14 [paulc]
ack dd
15:55:39 [ddorwin]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-jose-json-private-and-symmetric-key
15:55:52 [johnsim]
ddorwin: number six we didn't get to- linked IETF document is expired - Jason Private Key -
15:56:22 [johnsim]
adrianba: documents have a lifetime of six months, goes away, look to see if we need to push it forward in the IETF
15:56:29 [johnsim]
ddorwin: document as an issue?
15:57:09 [johnsim]
paulc: would the task force worth while sending Mike Jones a note asking status of this draft?
15:58:08 [johnsim]
paulc: before we run out of time, go back to the question i asked that adrian answered before I asked - any objection to David implementing changes he proposed in 17682?
15:58:13 [joesteele]
no objection
15:58:46 [adrianba]
q+
15:58:52 [paulc]
ack ad
15:59:19 [paulc]
Bug 17750 was next on the list
15:59:43 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17750
15:59:45 [johnsim]
adrianba: highlight 17750 - that we didn't get to - i added comments - this is about the close method - proposed an amendment on state transition to deal with close and deals with mark's outstanding issue on key release
16:00:32 [paulc]
Possibly related to Mark's work on 17199
16:00:40 [paulc]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199
16:01:10 [Zakim]
-pladd
16:01:16 [Zakim]
-adrianba
16:01:18 [Zakim]
-[Adobe]
16:01:18 [Zakim]
-pal
16:01:18 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
16:01:18 [Zakim]
-davide
16:01:22 [Zakim]
-ddorwin
16:01:23 [paulc]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:01:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/01-html-media-minutes.html paulc
16:02:33 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:02:38 [Zakim]
-johnsim
16:02:45 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
16:02:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were johnsim, pal, paulc, +1.760.533.aaaa, pladd, +1.425.936.aabb, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], adrianba, markw, +44.303.040.aacc, davide
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