14:41:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:41:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc
14:41:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
14:41:26 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconferece
14:41:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:41:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:41:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
14:41:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:41:31 <trackbot> Date: 26 September 2013
14:41:49 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:41:53 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:41:56 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:42:01 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix
14:42:21 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Sep/0019.html
14:42:36 <aphillip> agenda+ RADAR
14:42:49 <aphillip> agenda+ Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note
14:43:00 <aphillip> agenda+ Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts
14:43:13 <aphillip> agenda+ QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)
14:43:26 <aphillip> agenda+ 'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text
14:43:33 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:45:28 <aphillip> agenda
14:45:31 <aphillip> agenda?
14:53:07 <jdaggett> aphillip: would it be possible to tweak the order a bit to discuss the Tr default behavior issue a little earlier?
14:53:27 <jdaggett> for purely selfish reasons, it's relatively late here...
14:53:43 <aphillip> sure john, no problem
14:53:56 <jdaggett> thanks!
14:54:55 <jdaggett> right
14:55:16 <jdaggett> i'm not expecting a resolution of anything
14:55:27 <jdaggett> just helpful to have more eyes looking at the problem
14:57:45 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
14:57:45 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has not yet started, aphillip
14:57:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
14:58:34 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:41 <Zakim> + +1.408.666.aaaa
14:58:51 <aphillip> zakim, +1.408.666.aaaa is me
14:58:51 <Zakim> +aphillip; got it
14:58:58 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
14:58:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip
14:58:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
14:59:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:33 <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
14:59:33 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
15:00:19 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
15:00:19 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:00:20 <Zakim> +Richard
15:04:50 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
15:04:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, jdaggett, Richard
15:04:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, jdaggett, r12a, trackbot
15:05:14 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:05:28 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has joined #i18n
15:05:53 <DavidClarke> DavidClarke has joined #i18n
15:06:00 <Zakim> + +1.617.245.aabb
15:06:08 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
15:06:18 <aphillip> agenda?
15:06:42 <aphillip> Regrets+ DavidClarke
15:07:42 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:08:31 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:08:40 <aphillip> action-251?
15:08:40 <trackbot> action-251 -- Addison Phillips to Contact the epub folks and see if they will write to html asking about ruby -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN
15:08:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/251
15:12:30 <aphillip> close action-258
15:12:30 <trackbot> Closed action-258.
15:12:42 <aphillip> action: addison: change the teleconference time per action-258
15:12:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-261 - Change the teleconference time per action-258 [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:13:52 <aphillip> close action-259
15:13:52 <trackbot> Closed action-259.
15:14:19 <aphillip> action: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around
15:14:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-262 - Cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:14:43 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:14:56 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:15:20 <aphillip> richard: when I'm at TPAC, the web platform docs guys want to talk about nav between translated pages
15:16:03 <aphillip> richard: ICS 2.0 went to PR
15:16:30 <aphillip> richard: CSS ruby module was published as WD
15:16:45 <aphillip> (a hearty round of cheers)
15:17:14 <aphillip> agenda?
15:17:55 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:17:55 <Zakim> agendum 1. "RADAR" taken up [from aphillip]
15:18:12 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
15:18:24 <r12a> Topic: Review radar
15:19:00 <aphillip> agenda?
15:19:02 <r12a> nothing with deadline or of note this week
15:19:18 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 5
15:19:18 <Zakim> agendum 5. "'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text" taken up [from aphillip]
15:19:38 <aphillip> addison: visitor john daggett
15:19:53 <jdaggett> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/japanese.png
15:19:59 <aphillip> john: vertical text layout has distinct characters that can have mixed orientations
15:20:02 <r12a> johnD: vertical layout has mixed orientations for characters
15:20:46 <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#text-orientation
15:20:51 <r12a> ... there is not necessarily a definitive orientation for a given character
15:21:06 <r12a> ... UTR50 defines default orientations
15:21:32 <r12a> ... for use when there is no markup or other indication available
15:21:57 <r12a> ... question is: for a given code point what's the best default?
15:22:15 <r12a> ... in some cases it's clear, latin is rotated, kanji is upright
15:22:34 <jdaggett> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110531/#vertical-typesetting-details
15:23:36 <r12a> ... in writing modes the situation was not too clear, so it was proposed to define a Unicode property
15:23:56 <r12a> ... as new codepoints are added the Unicode Consortium will maintain the data
15:24:09 <jdaggett> http://www.unicode.org/Public/vertical/revision-11/VerticalOrientation-11.html
15:24:18 <r12a> ... this led to UTR50 which defines the vertical orientation property
15:25:41 <r12a> ... if the author has not set a text orientation property explicitly, the user agent will use the UTR50 properties to determine orientation
15:25:58 <r12a> ... there are two T (transform) values
15:26:09 <r12a> ... Tu needs a different glyph
15:26:15 <jdaggett> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/#vertcal_alternates
15:26:16 <aphillip> Tu 	3001 	、 	IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA Tu 	3002 	。 	IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP
15:26:25 <aphillip> those are examples
15:27:03 <r12a> ... it's not just orientation
15:27:04 <aphillip> Tr 	3008 	〈 	LEFT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 	3009 	〉 	RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 	300A 	《 	LEFT DOUBLE ANGLE BRACKET
15:27:20 <r12a> Tr needs transformation but that transformation is a rotation
15:28:06 <r12a> ... in OpenType layout is typically done the same way for Tu and Tr - they are laid out upright and a feature causes substitution to create needed glyph
15:28:25 <r12a> ... most fonts will cover the Tu and Tr codepoints
15:28:30 <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0501.html
15:28:47 <r12a> ... however, the spec allows optional fallback for Tr (only) codepoints
15:29:07 <aphillip>  # For Tr characters, which are intended to be either transformed or # rotated sideways, the UA may assume that appropriate glyphs for # upright typesetting are given in the font and render them upright; # alternately it may check for such glyphs first, and fall back to # typesetting them sideways if the appropriate glyphs are missing.
15:29:46 <r12a> ... two problems: [1] it's optional behaviour, but there's actually only one way that's right
15:30:15 <r12a> ... it's not like alternative algorithms for say justification
15:30:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:35:20 <r12a> ... determining the ability of the opentype features to deal with this is not straightforward
15:35:42 <r12a> ... it's not a good idea to do layout operations on a glyph out of context
15:36:24 <r12a> ... there may be stylistic contexts based on adjacent characters
15:38:06 <r12a> ... unicode is defining an informative property, but the mechanics of the fallback mechanism is not what unicode is defining
15:40:58 <aphillip> Vertical_Orientation (vo) property value, one of the following:      U – Upright, the same orientation as in the character code charts     R – Rotated 90 degrees clockwise compared to the code charts     Tu – Transformed typographically, with fallback to Upright     Tr – Transformed typographically, with fallback to Rotated
15:41:46 <aphillip> Tr 	Same as Tu except that, as a fallback, the character can be displayed with the code chart glyph rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
15:45:20 <r12a> ... existing fonts already provide alternates and the data is in the font
15:45:34 <r12a> ... if the font doesn't have an alternate, we should view it as a font problem
15:45:57 <r12a> addison: i have run into this in my day job in vertical text in Kindle, and it was a problem
15:46:10 <r12a> ... some of our fonts don't have a complete set of rotated glyphs
15:46:37 <r12a> ... in order to get the right results without manual styling we had to provide a fallback in the layout for those cases
15:47:22 <r12a> johnd: it's equally wrong for Tu text if you don't have the right glyph
15:47:49 <r12a> ... if we were talking about a large number of code points this may be a different discussion
15:48:08 <r12a> ... and i'm not sure about the accuracy of some cases in UTR50
15:48:32 <r12a> ... eg the semicolon is displayed upright in Chinese
15:50:44 <r12a> addison: this is not a normative spec, so it can be adapted to solve problems
15:51:37 <r12a> johnd: what has been specified in writing=modes is optional behaviour, and the complexity of the machinery requirements doesn't seem necessary given the extent of the problem
15:52:16 <r12a> addison: we had to do fallback behaviour in kindle for corner cases - when you exceed a font capability you fall back to chinese or other fonts
15:52:35 <r12a> ... we had complaints about glyphs not being properly rotated
15:52:50 <r12a> johnd: i'd like to know more about the specifics of that example
15:53:27 <r12a> addison: it may indeed by a quirky character, but a font can't have every glyph in it, so if you leave out something then people will complain
15:54:07 <aphillip> agenda?
15:54:13 <r12a> addison: this is a useful introduction, i think we need to have koji's viewpoint
15:55:32 <r12a> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:55:32 <Zakim> agendum 4. "QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)" taken up [from aphillip]
15:56:04 <r12a> action: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered
15:56:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-263 - Provide further information about issues he encountered [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:56:29 <r12a> action: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues
15:56:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].
15:56:39 <r12a> close action-263
15:56:39 <trackbot> Closed action-263.
15:57:28 <r12a> still waiting for comments from Felix
15:57:39 <r12a> if not received by tomorrow morning, proceed to wide review
15:57:47 <r12a> felix can submit comments with others
15:58:28 <aphillip> addison to send announcement tomorrow (Friday)
15:58:32 <aphillip> agenda?
15:58:41 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:58:41 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note" taken up [from aphillip]
15:58:48 <r12a> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:58:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note" taken up [from aphillip]
15:59:13 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-ruby-use-cases-20120710/
15:59:26 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/
15:59:27 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ruby-use-cases-20130910/Overview.html
15:59:46 <aphillip> richard; can we publish as WG Note
15:59:55 <aphillip> chair: any objections?
16:00:02 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:00:25 <aphillip> addison: support
16:00:31 <aphillip> JcK: ok
16:00:47 <aphillip> richard: sent email out and have had no comments
16:01:08 <r12a> Agreed: publish Ruby Use Cases Doc as WG Note
16:01:14 <aphillip> action: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note
16:01:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-265 - Publish ruby use cases as wg-note [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-10-03].
16:01:29 <aphillip> agenda?
16:02:08 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:02:08 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts" taken up [from aphillip]
16:02:58 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
16:03:02 <Najib-ma> q+
16:03:06 <r12a> r12a: some comments from Mati i'll integrate, but we should move it soonish to review
16:03:09 <aphillip> ack najib-ma
16:03:19 <koji> koji has joined #i18n
16:03:21 <Najib-ma> Reading it diagonally.
16:03:23 <Najib-ma> A general remark.
16:03:25 <Najib-ma> In the arabic exemple, choosing significative words would be less confusing.
16:03:33 <Najib-ma> For exemple in the first examples one cannot see which arabic text is actually the attribute value and which one is the element value.
16:03:34 <Najib-ma> I suggest for example (line breaks here for readability)
16:03:36 <Najib-ma> <p class="myclass" title="عنوان">
16:03:37 <Najib-ma> عربية
16:03:39 <Najib-ma> </p>
16:03:40 <Najib-ma> where the attribute value is the translation of the word "title" and the <p> content is the word Arabic
16:03:42 <Najib-ma> More specific comments in a separate mail.
16:03:43 <Najib-ma> /That's it, Thanks
16:04:02 <aphillip> addison: thanks Najib! will look for the email
16:04:04 <r12a> email would be good, najib
16:04:10 <r12a> please send asap, thanks
16:04:11 <Najib-ma> Ok
16:04:26 <Najib-ma> By friday
16:04:26 <r12a> najib, also see mati's comments
16:04:38 <Najib-ma> I have to reply to
16:04:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:06:28 <Zakim> - +1.617.245.aabb
16:06:29 <Zakim> -aphillip
16:06:32 <r12a> Meeting Adjourned
16:06:39 <JcK> JcK has left #i18n
16:06:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:06:44 <Zakim> -Richard
16:06:44 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:06:44 <Zakim> Attendees were aphillip, jdaggett, Richard, +1.617.245.aabb
16:06:51 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:07:01 <r12a> rrsagent, bye
16:07:01 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:07:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: change the teleconference time per action-258 [1]
16:07:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-12-42
16:07:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around [2]
16:07:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-14-19
16:07:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered [3]
16:07:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-56-04
16:07:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison to provide further information about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues [4]
16:07:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T15-56-29
16:07:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note [5]
16:07:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc#T16-01-14
16:07:20 <r12a> hi koji, started one hour ago
16:07:21 <aphillip> Present: Addison, Richard, John K, John Daggett (guest), Najib (via IRC)