IRC log of html-a11y on 2013-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:36 [RRSAgent]
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14:57:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-html-a11y-irc
14:57:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:38 [Zakim]
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14:57:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:40 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 57 minutes ago
14:57:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:41 [trackbot]
Date: 12 September 2013
14:57:47 [janina]
zakim, clear agenda
14:57:48 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:57:52 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:57:52 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
14:57:52 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:57:55 [janina]
agenda+ HTML Mappings Document Update
14:57:58 [janina]
agenda+ Alt Edits Review [See Below]
14:58:00 [janina]
agenda+ Longdesc Testing Update http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Aug/0062.html
14:58:03 [janina]
agenda+ Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses
14:58:06 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media;
14:58:08 [janina]
agenda+ Administrative Update: TF Publications; Our 5.1 Issues
14:58:11 [janina]
agenda+ Potential TF Participation at TPAC 2013?
14:58:13 [janina]
agenda+ HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion
14:58:16 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
14:58:17 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:58:18 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:58:24 [Zakim]
+??P2
14:58:40 [janina]
agenda+ be donezakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:03 [janina]
zakim, drop item 12
14:59:03 [Zakim]
agendum 12, be donezakim, who's on the phone?, dropped
14:59:14 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
14:59:29 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2
14:59:37 [janina]
zakim, ??P2 is me
14:59:37 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
14:59:44 [janina]
zakim, clear agenda
14:59:44 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:59:50 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:59:50 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
14:59:50 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:59:53 [janina]
agenda+ HTML Mappings Document Update
14:59:56 [janina]
agenda+ Alt Edits Review [See Below]
14:59:58 [janina]
agenda+ Longdesc Testing Update http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Aug/0062.html
15:00:01 [janina]
agenda+ Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses
15:00:04 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media;
15:00:06 [janina]
agenda+ Administrative Update: TF Publications; Our 5.1 Issues
15:00:09 [janina]
agenda+ Potential TF Participation at TPAC 2013?
15:00:11 [janina]
agenda+ HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion
15:00:14 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
15:00:16 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:00:19 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:00:29 [janina]
Thanks, Ted!
15:00:54 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
15:00:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:01:02 [Zakim]
+MarkS
15:01:07 [Zakim]
+Judy
15:01:28 [Judy]
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15:01:58 [janina]
regrets: Leonie, Hober
15:02:00 [chaals]
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15:04:20 [MarkS]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Scribe_List
15:05:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.201.390.aaaa
15:05:58 [Suzanne_Taylor]
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15:07:13 [Suzanne_Taylor]
scribe: SuzanneT
15:07:46 [Judy]
http://idpf.org/edupub-2013
15:08:15 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
15:08:38 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
15:09:03 [janina]
zakim, next item
15:09:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "HTML Mappings Document Update" taken up [from janina]
15:09:50 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: not ready to published, but was published
15:10:42 [Suzanne_Taylor]
ironing out status of document, wondering whether or not to finish consensus process
15:11:34 [Suzanne_Taylor]
status should say aimed at HTML 5.1
15:11:39 [Suzanne_Taylor]
need a second editor
15:12:20 [Suzanne_Taylor]
judy: should complete process, with a note that the document is intended to be joinly produced document
15:12:51 [Suzanne_Taylor]
status should be updated per bug that steve f entered
15:13:59 [JF]
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15:14:01 [Suzanne_Taylor]
should we get Mark listed on any of these joint documents, to help prevent this type of issue
15:14:20 [chaals]
Sorry folks, I just sent regrets and some comments...
15:14:26 [chaals]
regrets+ chaals
15:16:11 [Suzanne_Taylor]
Group: need to archive some of the editors; okay to drop Cynthia? yes
15:17:33 [janina]
zakim, next item
15:17:33 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Alt Edits Review" taken up [from See Below]
15:18:48 [Suzanne_Taylor]
(if possible, try to say your name when speaking, since i'm still learning voices)
15:19:47 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: discussion on Aug 1st: conclusion was yes, useful to id class of object, such as "logo"
15:20:02 [MarkS]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23207 -> filed by janina
15:20:07 [Suzanne_Taylor]
propose to include a number of these like, pie chart, bar graph, etc
15:20:10 [JF]
Q+
15:20:41 [MarkS]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22854 -> david macdonald
15:20:46 [Suzanne_Taylor]
Mark: foound related bug by Dave McDonald
15:20:56 [Suzanne_Taylor]
mark as duplicate
15:21:10 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:21:21 [Suzanne_Taylor]
Mark will add additional classes of images
15:21:29 [SteveF]
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15:22:31 [janina]
zakim, [ipcaller] is stevef
15:22:31 [Zakim]
+stevef; got it
15:23:26 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: perhaps show a few design patterns for how you add the classes
15:23:35 [Suzanne_Taylor]
steve: might be in WCAG techniques
15:23:49 [SteveF]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#graphical-representations:-charts,-diagrams,-graphs,-maps,-illustrations
15:24:15 [JF]
s/steve: might be in WCAG techniques/JF: might be in WCAG techniques
15:24:20 [Suzanne_Taylor]
group: keep these parallel, there's a task force that is responsible for WCAG techniques for HTML 5
15:24:53 [Suzanne_Taylor]
oh, sorry JF
15:26:31 [Suzanne_Taylor]
steve: problem with active images, 'logo' might cause folks to think this is a link to a logo
15:27:33 [Suzanne_Taylor]
steve: the alt-text for active images is the link text which needs to be a brief description of the target
15:28:03 [Suzanne_Taylor]
group: logo: links to homepage? but then print icon: prints page?
15:28:15 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: okay to ask techniques taskforce to take this up
15:28:20 [Suzanne_Taylor]
group: yes, useful
15:29:10 [Suzanne_Taylor]
Mark S: can take this up as an action item
15:29:51 [MarkS]
ACTION: MarkS to follow up with WCAG on providing feedback on ALT advise document, specifically on the use of class/category info on images, especially when contained within hyperlinks.
15:29:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-194 - Follow up with wcag on providing feedback on alt advise document, specifically on the use of class/category info on images, especially when contained within hyperlinks. [on Mark Sadecki - due 2013-09-19].
15:32:54 [janina]
zakim, next item
15:32:54 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
15:32:59 [janina]
q?
15:33:05 [janina]
ack jf
15:33:06 [JF]
ack JF
15:33:10 [janina]
q?
15:33:15 [janina]
zakim, next item
15:33:15 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Longdesc Testing Update http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Aug/0062.html" taken up [from janina]
15:33:25 [Judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:33:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, MarkS, Judy, +1.201.390.aaaa, Cynthia_Shelly, John_Foliot, stevef
15:33:50 [Suzanne_Taylor]
2 items on the agenda today - 60 day last call closes on Monday - time for comments nearly passed
15:34:00 [Suzanne_Taylor]
1) testing for CR exit
15:34:39 [MarkS]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Longdesc-tests -> longdesc test results wiki
15:34:42 [JF]
zakim, aaaa is Suzanne_Taylor
15:34:42 [Zakim]
+Suzanne_Taylor; got it
15:35:12 [MarkS]
https://github.com/chaals/longdesc-tests -> longdesc tests on github
15:35:22 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: clean up needed, can probably do in next couple weeks, not days
15:35:35 [janina]
zakim, next item
15:35:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses" taken up [from janina]
15:36:24 [Suzanne_Taylor]
2) need to provide a formal response to these, after establishing concensus on our response
15:36:39 [Suzanne_Taylor]
there are five such comments
15:36:45 [MarkS]
https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/44061/WD-html-longdesc-20130716/ -> longdesc comment tracker
15:37:02 [Suzanne_Taylor]
send candidate resolutions to the list to see if there are any objections
15:38:20 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: seeking to be exhaustive and thorough documenting both concensus and minor opinions
15:38:59 [MarkS]
I propose to make no substantive changes in response to the comments, but in response to the comments from James Craig I will propose to add a statement to the effect that authors should not use longdesc as an excuse for not achieving better accessibility with techniques like the use of accessible SVG, or MathML instead of pictures of mathematical expressions - in such cases longdesc should be considered a fallback for old technology.
15:39:21 [JF]
Q+
15:39:24 [janina]
q?
15:39:54 [MarkS]
s/I propose/CN(via email): I propose
15:40:27 [Suzanne_Taylor]
???: is acceptable to use a description instead of mathML for a single bit of math
15:40:45 [Suzanne_Taylor]
???: is it acceptable to use a description instead of mathML for a single bit of math?
15:40:45 [janina]
ack jf
15:41:21 [Suzanne_Taylor]
jf: strong reservations on saying that long desc is inappropriate
15:41:27 [janina]
q+
15:42:06 [Suzanne_Taylor]
jf: concerned how we convey this. for example, saying use SVG can be a problem, since support is poor
15:42:18 [Suzanne_Taylor]
jf: should avoid negative comments
15:42:45 [MarkS]
ST: often we use longdesc to include MathML
15:43:25 [janina]
q?
15:43:30 [Suzanne_Taylor]
jf: this could be an attempt at weakening longdesc, but the word 'inappropriate' is subjective
15:43:53 [Suzanne_Taylor]
judy: helpful to focus on alternate response & wording
15:44:39 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: better to talk about what we encourage and recognize that there are many ways to achieve appropriate markup
15:45:03 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: spec is not the place for author guidance on choosing what to do
15:45:27 [janina]
ack ja
15:45:40 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: positive not negative, support many ways/options, point to other W3C guidance
15:45:53 [Suzanne_Taylor]
jf: can live with that, believe it belongs in WCAG techniques document
15:46:30 [janina]
q?
15:47:49 [Suzanne_Taylor]
Cynthia: what about a see also link to other options, instead of making a judgement
15:48:51 [janina]
q?
15:48:54 [janina]
ack c
15:49:41 [Suzanne_Taylor]
???a: perhaps handle in techniques layers, but have to get the timing to work better
15:50:22 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: Is there an appropriate use of longdesc instead of mathML or instead of SVG?
15:51:06 [Suzanne_Taylor]
s/???/judy
15:51:18 [janina]
q?
15:51:42 [Suzanne_Taylor]
two considerations: developer learning curve & user learning curve (download mathplayer, etc)
15:52:41 [janina]
q?
15:52:54 [Suzanne_Taylor]
the tutorial folks have raised this question and need an answer
15:54:08 [JF]
Q+
15:55:01 [janina]
q?
15:55:05 [janina]
ack jf
15:55:40 [Suzanne_Taylor]
jf: educational folks were concerned because Google Chrome was supposed to supply native support, but it was dropped
15:57:39 [JF]
ACTION: JF to contact edu folks re: MathML support and failure status in 2 weeks
15:57:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-195 - Contact edu folks re: mathml support and failure status in 2 weeks [on John Foliot - due 2013-09-19].
15:58:13 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
15:59:55 [Zakim]
-janina
15:59:57 [Zakim]
-Judy
15:59:59 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:00:05 [Zakim]
-stevef
16:00:15 [Suzanne_Taylor]
janina: proposed response to very specific requirements for longdesc implementations: allow developers to be creative because
16:00:45 [Suzanne_Taylor]
there is room for improvements
16:00:53 [Zakim]
-Suzanne_Taylor
16:01:18 [Zakim]
-MarkS
16:01:20 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:01:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were janina, MarkS, Judy, +1.201.390.aaaa, Cynthia_Shelly, John_Foliot, stevef, Suzanne_Taylor
16:02:23 [MarkS]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-html-a11y-minutes.html MarkS
16:12:47 [Judy]
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16:52:29 [janina]
janina has changed the topic to: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference; Thursday 19 September at 15:00Z for 60 minutes
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