14:53:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediacap
14:53:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-irc
14:53:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:53:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediacap
14:53:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be MCAP
14:53:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_MdCap()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Capture Task Force Teleconference
14:53:38 <trackbot> Date: 28 August 2013
14:54:11 <fluffy> fluffy has joined #mediacap
14:54:26 <burn> zakim, I am Dan_Burnett
14:54:26 <Zakim> sorry, burn, I do not see a party named 'Dan_Burnett'
14:54:46 <burn> zakim, code?
14:54:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 6227 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), burn
14:55:04 <Zakim> UW_MdCap()11:00AM has now started
14:55:12 <Zakim> + +1.403.244.aaaa
14:56:04 <Zakim> +Dan_Burnett
14:56:09 <burn> zakim, I am Dan_Burnett
14:56:09 <Zakim> ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett
14:56:31 <burn> zakim, aaaa is Cullen_Jennings
14:56:31 <Zakim> +Cullen_Jennings; got it
14:56:55 <fluffy> Zakim, I am Cullen_Jennings
14:56:55 <Zakim> ok, fluffy, I now associate you with Cullen_Jennings
14:57:59 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
14:58:02 <Zakim> +stefanh
14:58:12 <gmandyam> gmandyam has joined #mediacap
14:58:13 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, [Mozilla] contains Josh_Soref, gmandyam
14:58:13 <Zakim> +Josh_Soref, gmandyam; got it
14:58:27 <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
14:58:31 <timeless> scribenick: timeless
14:58:52 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cullen_Jennings, Dan_Burnett, [Mozilla], stefanh
14:58:53 <jesup> jesup has joined #mediacap
14:58:54 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Josh_Soref, gmandyam
14:59:16 <Zakim> + +91.22.39.14.aabb
14:59:22 <Zakim> +Jim_Barnett
14:59:32 <Zakim> +??P8
14:59:37 <fjh> zakim, ??P8 is me
14:59:37 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:59:41 <Zakim> + +33.2.31.26.aacc
14:59:44 <timeless> Zakim, mute Josh_Soref \
14:59:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute Josh_Soref \', timeless
14:59:46 <timeless> Zakim, mute Josh_Soref
14:59:46 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Josh_Soref
14:59:46 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_HIrsch
14:59:55 <Zakim> +??P9
14:59:57 <Zakim> + +1.610.889.aadd
14:59:58 <dom> Zakim, ??P9 is me
14:59:59 <Zakim> +dom; got it
15:00:07 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:00:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html timeless
15:00:22 <burn> zakim, who's talking?
15:00:34 <Zakim> burn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Dan_Burnett (28%), [Mozilla] (24%)
15:00:38 <jesup> zakim, aadd is me
15:00:39 <Zakim> +jesup; got it
15:00:44 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html timeless
15:00:48 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:49 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html timeless
15:00:59 <timeless> Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
15:00:59 <Zakim> [Mozilla] should now be muted
15:01:00 <stephane_cazeaux> stephane_cazeaux has joined #mediacap
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.510.996.aaee
15:01:26 <Zakim> + +1.650.241.aaff
15:01:31 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:01:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cullen_Jennings, Dan_Burnett, [Mozilla] (muted), stefanh, +91.22.39.14.aabb, Jim_Barnett, fjh, +33.2.31.26.aacc, dom, jesup, +1.510.996.aaee, +1.650.241.aaff
15:01:35 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Josh_Soref, gmandyam
15:01:36 <Zakim> + +46.1.07.14.aagg
15:01:57 <timeless> Zakim, where is 510?
15:01:57 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.510 is California
15:02:06 <adambe> adambe has joined #mediacap
15:02:08 <timeless> Zakim, where is +91?
15:02:08 <Zakim> country code 91 is India
15:02:10 <timeless> Zakim, where is +33?
15:02:10 <Zakim> country code 33 is France
15:02:20 <stephane_cazeaux> +33 is me
15:02:29 <timeless> Zakim, aacc is stephane_cazeaux
15:02:30 <Zakim> +stephane_cazeaux; got it
15:02:39 <timeless> s/+33 is me//
15:03:04 <stefanh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2013Aug/0165.html
15:03:05 <mreavy> mreavy has joined #mediacap
15:03:14 <Zakim> + +1.650.678.aahh
15:03:19 <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2013Aug/0165.html|Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2013Aug/0165.html|
15:03:24 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:03:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html timeless
15:03:47 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cullen_Jennings, Dan_Burnett, [Mozilla] (muted), stefanh, +91.22.39.14.aabb, Jim_Barnett, fjh, stephane_cazeaux, dom, jesup, +1.510.996.aaee, +1.650.241.aaff,
15:03:50 <Zakim> ... +46.1.07.14.aagg, +1.650.678.aahh
15:03:50 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Josh_Soref, gmandyam
15:04:01 <timeless> chair: stefanh
15:04:26 <timeless> s/chair: stefanh/chair: stefanh, hta/
15:04:39 <timeless> topic: Minutes Approval
15:04:48 <stefanh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2013May/0061.html
15:04:55 <timeless> stefanh: are there other comments?
15:05:04 <Jim_> Jim_ has joined #mediacap
15:05:05 <timeless> ... I propose the minutes
15:05:17 <timeless> s/the/we approve the/
15:05:41 <timeless> RESOLUTION: Minutes from 7 May 2013 are approved
15:05:50 <timeless> Topic: Media Capture and Streams
15:06:02 <timeless> burn: the last set of edits were by adambe
15:06:17 <timeless> ... i'd like adambe to speak about it
15:06:30 <timeless> adambe: the changes were for a bunch of bugs
15:06:36 <timeless> ... they were uncontroversial
15:06:41 <timeless> ... like 10 bugs
15:06:54 <timeless> Zakim, who is speaking?
15:07:05 <Zakim> timeless, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +46.1.07.14.aagg (10%)
15:07:14 <timeless> adambe: if you have any issues with how bugs are resolved, you can reopen
15:07:18 <Balwinder> Balwinder has joined #mediacap
15:07:19 <timeless> Zakim, aagg is adambe
15:07:19 <Zakim> +adambe; got it
15:07:30 <timeless> ... if you have any particular issues/comments
15:07:35 <timeless> ... we can take them now
15:07:38 <timeless> ... or you can comment in the bug
15:07:55 <timeless> Zakim, who is speaking?
15:08:06 <Zakim> timeless, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dom (13%), adambe (40%)
15:08:19 <timeless> dom: do you have any visibility(?) for the remaining open bugs?
15:08:39 <dom> s/(?) for/ on the schedule for fixing/
15:08:43 <timeless> adambe: there are more bugs ... i think i can take a few more for the next release
15:09:35 <timeless> burn: there's no schedule in general that the editors have for closing bugs
15:09:47 <timeless> ... as soon as there's consensus, the editors will make the change
15:10:02 <timeless> ... it's the responsibility of the chairs to ensure discussion continues to ensure
15:10:09 <timeless> ... there's a conclusion
15:10:21 <timeless> fluffy: it's the responsibility of the WG, not the chairs
15:10:29 <timeless> ... but we aren't getting much from the group
15:10:42 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:10:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html timeless
15:10:54 <timeless> burn: if you don't push your own bugs forward to resolution, one way or the other
15:11:06 <timeless> ... the chairs have the opportunity to close the bug-- essentially reject it
15:11:23 <timeless> Topic: Test Suite
15:11:45 <timeless> dom: i wanted to mention work i did back in june
15:12:00 <dom> -> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/mediacapture-streams test suite
15:12:06 <timeless> ... i did a couple of things on the test suite i did a year before
15:12:09 <hta> hta has joined #mediacap
15:12:16 <timeless> ... one was moving the suite to github
15:12:21 <timeless> ... where most test suites are now hosted
15:12:47 <timeless> ... the more meaningful work was to update the test suite to make it more complete and adapt it to the latest changes to the spec
15:12:57 <timeless> ... the work back in june was trying to write tests for this specification
15:13:07 <timeless> ... this is again a call for feedback on the test cases
15:13:19 <timeless> ... also interested in hearing from implementers on whether they're planning to use the test suite
15:13:28 <timeless> ... if not, are there things i can do to make it easier to use
15:13:34 <timeless> ... getUserMedia requires user consent
15:13:52 <timeless> ... i don't think we have a good way to indicate if a test requires acceptance/refusal
15:14:07 <timeless> burn: user-consent is written into the spec on purpose
15:14:09 <hta> zakim, who is here?
15:14:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cullen_Jennings, Dan_Burnett, [Mozilla] (muted), stefanh, +91.22.39.14.aabb, Jim_Barnett, fjh, stephane_cazeaux, dom, jesup, +1.510.996.aaee, +1.650.241.aaff,
15:14:13 <Zakim> ... adambe, +1.650.678.aahh
15:14:13 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Josh_Soref, gmandyam
15:14:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see hta, Balwinder, Jim_, mreavy, adambe, stephane_cazeaux, jesup, gmandyam, fluffy, Zakim, RRSAgent, burn, stefanh, fjh, lgombos, dom, slightlyoff, richt, Josh_Soref,
15:14:13 <Zakim> ... timeless, trackbot, derf
15:14:13 <timeless> ... we don't specify how it's to be obtained
15:14:23 <timeless> ... there isn't any automated way to know
15:14:38 <hta> zakim, aaf is me
15:14:38 <Zakim> sorry, hta, I do not recognize a party named 'aaf'
15:14:39 <timeless> ... if i download a browser which says "this automatically consents to giving microphone access"
15:14:50 <timeless> s/zakim, aaf is me//
15:14:57 <timeless> Zakim, aaff is hta
15:14:57 <Zakim> +hta; got it
15:15:26 <timeless> dom: when the operation says "do this if you get consent, and do that if you don't"
15:15:31 <timeless> Zakim, who is speaking?
15:15:41 <Zakim> timeless, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:16:06 <timeless> XXX: Firefox has a special mode where you can force things to fail or allow it to succeed
15:16:50 <timeless> dom: the Web Driver API
15:16:53 <stefanh> s/XXX/ekr/
15:17:02 <timeless> ekr: Chrome has persistent permissions
15:17:30 <timeless> ekr: maybe i'm not understanding how you expect this to work
15:17:40 <timeless> dom: the test running system will probably use Web Driver
15:17:57 <timeless> ... we're discussing something that we know can't be automated in the W3 test suite
15:18:01 <Zakim> - +1.650.678.aahh
15:18:16 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:18:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cullen_Jennings, Dan_Burnett, [Mozilla] (muted), stefanh, +91.22.39.14.aabb, Jim_Barnett, fjh, stephane_cazeaux, dom, jesup, +1.510.996.aaee, hta, adambe
15:18:19 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Josh_Soref, gmandyam
15:18:19 <Zakim> + +1.650.678.aaii
15:18:52 <timeless> hta: ZZZ
15:19:04 <timeless> ... W3 has automated test suites
15:19:08 <timeless> ... i'm waiting for things to complete
15:19:12 <timeless> ... before we dailed in
15:19:33 <Zakim> - +1.650.678.aaii
15:19:40 <timeless> dom: i heard you saying...
15:19:43 <ekr> ekr has joined #mediacap
15:20:00 <timeless> dom: i'm trying to get feedback
15:20:06 <ekr> I keep getting kicked off the call
15:20:08 <ekr> I blame at/7t
15:20:19 <Zakim> + +1.650.678.aajj
15:20:21 <hta> I said: Chrome has automated tests in its public source code that manipulate the infobar prompt.
15:20:24 <timeless> Zakim, aajj is ekr
15:20:25 <Zakim> +ekr; got it
15:20:31 <timeless> Topic: Bugs
15:20:38 <dom> s/.../ that Chrome is looking at integrating W3C test suites in its testing framework; harald will look at W3C test suites for media capture and WebRTC at that occasion/
15:20:40 <timeless> burn: bug qqq
15:20:52 <timeless> hta: the sense i got from the ML
15:21:00 <timeless> ... what we're getting from getObjectURL
15:21:07 <timeless> ... as a URL
15:21:13 <timeless> ... is definitely not the URL of a blob:
15:21:20 <timeless> ... and shouldn't be used as the URL of a blob
15:21:26 <timeless> s/blob:/blob/
15:21:38 <timeless> ... so having the letters "blob:" in front is confusing
15:21:41 <timeless> s/qqq/19594/
15:21:59 <Zakim> - +1.510.996.aaee
15:22:00 <timeless> ... the behavior of getObjectURL isn't documented for blob
15:22:14 <timeless> ... we could say "this is the object from which you can get urls"
15:22:18 <timeless> .. and either say or not say
15:22:21 <timeless> s/../.../
15:22:31 <timeless> ... do other people have strong opinions one way or the other
15:22:46 <timeless> stefanh: i looked into the extension object
15:22:52 <timeless> ... they identify PPP
15:23:06 <timeless> ... don't know if we should do the same or not?
15:23:29 <timeless> fluffy: i don't really fully understand the issue
15:23:37 <timeless> ... i suspect most people don't understand what we're talking about
15:23:46 <stefanh> s/extension object/media source extensions/
15:23:55 <dom> q+ to ask why we need two directement assignments methods
15:23:56 <timeless> hta: the getObjectURL model is bad
15:24:13 <dom> s//getObject/createObject/g
15:24:13 <timeless> ... all the specifications specify what implementations have to do
15:24:17 <fluffy> q?
15:24:24 <timeless> s|s//getObject/createObject/g||
15:24:28 <timeless> s/getObject/createObject/g
15:24:30 <dom> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21606
15:24:39 <timeless> dom: hta says for backwards compat
15:24:44 <hta> s/the CreateObjectURL is bad/Martin thinks the CreateObjectURL is bad/
15:24:45 <timeless> ... but i'm not sure how important that is
15:25:02 <timeless> ... i'm not sure what isn't solved with
15:25:06 <timeless> ... i'm not sure on the first point
15:25:13 <timeless> ... whether this brings a useful addition to the UCs
15:25:26 <timeless> jesup: stuff from long ago
15:25:34 <timeless> ... at mozilla we preferred sourceObject
15:25:37 <timeless> ... for reasons roc indicated
15:25:41 <timeless> ... lifetime management of resources
15:25:47 <timeless> ... knowing when they're no longer accessible
15:25:50 <timeless> ... we've implemented both
15:25:54 <timeless> ... are preference is sourceObject
15:25:57 <timeless> s/are/our/
15:26:24 <timeless> burn: createObjectURL as i'm seeing it used by WebRTC applications
15:26:35 <timeless> ... they call createObjectURL and then assign the video.src property to that result
15:26:39 <timeless> ... in that sense, the url is opaque
15:26:43 <timeless> ... they have no idea what's there
15:26:46 <timeless> ... they don't care
15:26:58 <timeless> ... they want to take the output from the Media Stream and send it to a particular element
15:27:12 <timeless> ... direct assignment of src with .sourceObject covers that
15:27:31 <timeless> ... the question is what UCs are covered by createObjectURL that aren't covered by .sourceObject
15:27:42 <timeless> ... we'd have to specify what it does, since it doesn't return a blob
15:27:48 <Zakim> -adambe
15:27:54 <timeless> fluffy: thank you very much
15:28:05 <timeless> hta: can someone argue against this
15:28:05 <fluffy> q+
15:28:11 <dom> q-
15:28:16 <timeless> ack fluffy
15:28:18 <Zakim> +adambe
15:28:22 <timeless> fluffy: burn asked if there was a UC
15:28:23 <dom> ack Cullen
15:28:27 <timeless> ... there can't be a UC that needs it
15:28:37 <timeless> ... what's returned right now doesn't do what it says anyway
15:28:45 <timeless> ... i'm in favor of removing it as burn stated
15:28:55 <timeless> adambe: i think i mentioned this at the editor's call
15:29:07 <timeless> ... there are people who construct and parse their page by concatenating strings
15:29:16 <timeless> ... it could just be a unique id
15:29:31 <timeless> ... if you take this and build the html using a string
15:29:35 <timeless> ... that's one UC
15:29:39 <timeless> ... not sure it's particularly important
15:29:53 <burn> q+
15:30:02 <timeless> ... should you be able to set the source property to a stream?
15:30:12 <jesup> q+
15:30:13 <dom> ack burn
15:30:14 <timeless> ... i think a separate property of sourceObject cleared up the discussion
15:30:20 <dom> ack Dan
15:30:23 <timeless> burn: the rationale for keeping it is that you can treat it as a handle
15:30:25 <timeless> ... some string
15:30:31 <timeless> ... whether the string has meaning or not
15:30:41 <timeless> ... what's important is that it's a string that can be saved
15:30:49 <timeless> ... and your application can dynamically assign one string or another
15:30:52 <timeless> ... it acts as a handle
15:30:56 <dom> [but that can be done with srcObject too, can't it?]
15:31:00 <timeless> ... you aren't changing how the handle is defined
15:31:10 <timeless> ... but you're selecting which one you're assigning
15:31:20 <fluffy> q+
15:31:54 <timeless> "<html>"+"<body>"+<video src=" + thing +">"
15:32:19 <jesup> q-
15:32:21 <timeless> adambe: you can then do element.innerHTML=concatenated
15:32:35 <timeless> ekr: it's a blob url... it as to have the whole stream
15:32:44 <timeless> adambe: it doesn't have to have the entire string
15:32:52 <hta> s/ekr/cullen/
15:33:03 <timeless> dom: not concatenating STREAMs, but STRINGs
15:33:13 <timeless> ekr: what do you think the length of that string is?
15:33:25 <timeless> [ very short, a handle ]
15:33:36 <timeless> hta: it's a pointer to a registry
15:33:46 <timeless> ekr: i'm confused
15:33:49 <jesup> q+
15:33:50 <hta> s/hta/adambe
15:33:57 <timeless> adambe: if someone is doing it that way, we could be breaking their code
15:34:04 <dom> q+ to propose asking for feedback on public-webapps
15:34:18 <fluffy> q-
15:34:23 <timeless> ack jesup
15:34:29 <timeless> jesup: i understand adambe 's UC
15:34:32 <timeless> ... i was confused initially
15:34:43 <timeless> ... i don't see it as particularly compelling
15:34:56 <timeless> ... in most cases you can construct it the other way
15:35:03 <timeless> ... there are known minuses to using createObjectURL
15:35:10 <timeless> ... in terms of resource lifetime
15:35:14 <timeless> ack dom
15:35:14 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to propose asking for feedback on public-webapps
15:35:31 <timeless> dom: i understand the UC, while i might not like it, it might be important
15:35:42 <timeless> ... we should ask on a WebApps or ScriptCoord ML
15:35:54 <timeless> burn: i like that answer very much
15:36:15 <timeless> ... this is about: "how are the larger web app folks using this to build an app going to use this functionality?"
15:36:21 <timeless> ... who would send the email to the ML?
15:36:32 <timeless> stefanh: that's an action on dom
15:36:33 <dom> ACTION: Dom to ask WebApps about createObjectURL
15:36:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Ask webapps about createobjecturl [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2013-09-04].
15:36:50 <timeless> burn: i believe we've reached a point of progress on this
15:37:04 <timeless> hta: i'll create a bug to remove createObjectURL from the spec
15:37:07 <timeless> ... and set a dependency
15:37:11 <timeless> burn: thanks hta
15:37:57 <timeless> bug 21618
15:38:00 <timeless> Jim_: the question is
15:38:16 <gmandyam> Link:  https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21618
15:38:56 <timeless> s|Link:  https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21618|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21618  MediaStreams with no tracks need to not be Ended|
15:39:40 <timeless> Jim_: can a media stream be resurrected?
15:39:44 <timeless> adambe: we talked about this
15:40:04 <timeless> ... it can only move from the ended state if the script explicitly call play()
15:40:08 <timeless> Jim_: if it reset it
15:40:29 <timeless> adambe: if a stream is rendered by a MediaElement and it's consumed by something
15:40:33 <timeless> ... and tracks are removed
15:40:37 <timeless> ... and there's autoplay
15:40:41 <timeless> ... and you add a track back
15:40:43 <timeless> ... what happens?
15:40:53 <adambe> yes
15:41:02 <timeless> s/yes//
15:41:09 <timeless> Jim_: when media stream moves from active to inactive
15:41:15 <timeless> [ Jim_ reads spec text ]
15:41:27 <timeless> Jim_: the stream won't ... until you call play()
15:41:37 <timeless> burn: from a developer perspective, if i set autoplay=""
15:41:45 <timeless> ... and i add Tracks to the Media element
15:41:49 <timeless> ... i expect it to play
15:41:51 <timeless> Josh_Soref: +1
15:41:59 <timeless> Jim_: yes, there's an open issue on it
15:42:16 <timeless> burn: the reason i set autoplay= is because i don't want to call play()
15:42:27 <timeless> adambe: what happens if you have a media source where tracks are coming and going
15:42:33 <timeless> ... can't we align with that behavior?
15:42:41 <timeless> ... i don't know what that behavior is...
15:42:56 <timeless> ... i do like the inactive term better than ended
15:43:03 <timeless> ... it's fine for a stream to start in an inactive state
15:43:16 <burn> agree with inactive as a better state for when tracks go away
15:43:18 <timeless> ... it's not good to construct a stream without tracks and have it in ended
15:43:19 <jesup> q+
15:43:24 <timeless> Jim_: right
15:43:38 <timeless> ... it certainly should be called inactive if we think it can become active if you add more tracks
15:43:47 <timeless> adambe: right, you can construct a stream without any tracks
15:43:56 <timeless> ... is that stream can't have tracks added to it
15:43:59 <timeless> hta: it's inactiove
15:44:04 <timeless> s/inactiove/inactive/
15:44:21 <timeless> ... we just describe the behavior
15:45:02 <timeless> jesup: i'm not an expert about how this would be used
15:45:05 <timeless> ... go inactive without data
15:45:15 <timeless> ... if you have autoplay= and you add tracks, it plays
15:45:27 <timeless> burn: if you have PeerConnection
15:45:35 <timeless> ... what's the consequences for resources with a PeerConnection
15:45:43 <timeless> jesup: what do you mean by resources losing all tracks?
15:45:47 <timeless> ... no longer have data, or removed?
15:45:51 <timeless> burn: great question
15:46:24 <Josh_Soref> ... we're talking all tracks being removed
15:46:31 <Josh_Soref> jesup: when a track is removed
15:46:38 <Josh_Soref> ... that will trigger Negotiation
15:46:43 <Josh_Soref> ... which filters through
15:46:50 <Josh_Soref> ... if you add a track to one
15:47:07 <Josh_Soref> ... if you add a track to a previously empty, i'd assume that will also trigger a negotiation
15:47:12 <Josh_Soref> burn: seems reasonable to me
15:47:23 <Josh_Soref> ... so no magical smart behavior needed by the browser
15:47:29 <Josh_Soref> ... it triggers negotiation needed
15:47:37 <Josh_Soref> jesup: sounds like how it would work to me
15:47:46 <Josh_Soref> burn: Jim_, do you believe we have an answer to this question?
15:47:49 <Josh_Soref> Jim_: i think that answers it
15:48:05 <Josh_Soref> ... for issue-3 if autoplay=true and tracks are added, it will start playing automatically
15:48:13 <Josh_Soref> ... and the other part of inactive is defined elsewhere
15:48:23 <Josh_Soref> stefanh: do we remove the `ended` / `onended`
15:48:26 <Josh_Soref> ... and just have inactive?
15:48:28 <Josh_Soref> Jim_: i think so
15:48:36 <Josh_Soref> ... you want an oninactive event
15:48:46 <Josh_Soref> burn: there's a difference between a track ending and a track being removed
15:48:51 <Josh_Soref> stefanh: this is on media
15:49:00 <Josh_Soref> hta: if all tracks become ended, the stream is inactive
15:49:13 <Josh_Soref> burn: if all tracks become ended, then the stream is ended
15:49:22 <Josh_Soref> hta: ... we should remove ended
15:49:31 <jesup> agreed, there's no use for ended on a stream; use inactive instead
15:49:36 <Josh_Soref> stefanh: do we need ended in addition to inactive? remove ended
15:49:40 <Josh_Soref> adambe: i think we remove ended
15:49:48 <Josh_Soref> burn: anyone want to argue for keeping ended?
15:49:54 <Josh_Soref> ... i think we need a bug proposing this
15:50:26 <Josh_Soref> ekr: previously we called Ended.
15:50:31 <Josh_Soref> ... we're going to call Inactive
15:50:53 <Josh_Soref> stefanh: tracks can be muted
15:51:06 <Josh_Soref> adambe: the only cases where we involve media stream track
15:51:12 <Josh_Soref> ... is when all tracks in a stream are ended
15:51:16 <Josh_Soref> ... that stream becomes inactive
15:51:21 <Josh_Soref> ... but it could go active again
15:51:27 <Josh_Soref> ... an ended stream w/ no tracks is also inactive
15:51:32 <Josh_Soref> ... we're removing ended
15:51:38 <Josh_Soref> ... since you can always add active tracks
15:51:46 <Josh_Soref> ekr: should we blow away the definition of stream?
15:52:00 <Josh_Soref> adambe: it's a convenience to monitor all tracks in a stream
15:52:16 <Josh_Soref> ekr: every time this WG or WebRTC
15:52:21 <hta> s/the definition of stream/the definition of stream state/
15:52:25 <Josh_Soref> ... tries to define composition of things with individual state
15:52:42 <Josh_Soref> ... given you have to interrogate the individual states
15:52:51 <Josh_Soref> hta: i'm happy with removing the state variable from Stream
15:53:08 <Josh_Soref> fluffy: i agree w/ what you're saying
15:53:26 <Josh_Soref> ... i think i'm in favor of looking at what we can remove from the spec
15:53:34 <Josh_Soref> ... if we've added something later which supplants it
15:53:39 <Josh_Soref> s/supplants/supercedes/
15:53:41 <Zakim> + +1.510.996.aakk
15:53:57 <Josh_Soref> burn: i'm ok with this
15:54:02 <Josh_Soref> ... fluffy said to think about this carefully
15:54:10 <Josh_Soref> ... current process is to propose in a bug
15:54:17 <Josh_Soref> ... probably in a couple of steps
15:54:22 <Josh_Soref> ... propose remove Ended from Stream
15:54:30 <jesup> +1 to remove ended, and +1 to consider removing state
15:54:31 <Josh_Soref> ... propose remove StreamState entirely
15:54:39 <Josh_Soref> ... how we tie dependencies together
15:54:51 <Josh_Soref> Jim_: one thing to consider is how many places that refer to ended/inactive
15:55:02 <Josh_Soref> ... if there are multiple ones, then in each case we have to replace them with spec text
15:55:13 <Josh_Soref> ... if we have many places that rely on the state
15:55:23 <Josh_Soref> ... even if we define the concept w/o an instance variable
15:55:25 <Josh_Soref> ... it's still useful
15:55:36 <Josh_Soref> adambe: it also affects stream consumers
15:55:51 <Josh_Soref> dom: i think the concept of state is needed no matter what
15:55:57 <Josh_Soref> ... the question is whether to expose it or not
15:56:05 <Josh_Soref> ... but media stream consumers need to do something if no tracks are running
15:56:21 <Josh_Soref> ... the process of moving forward with this needs to start with removing where we use this notion of state for streams
15:56:27 <Josh_Soref> hta: there's no state for media stream
15:56:33 <Josh_Soref> ... there are tracks + ended, that's all
15:56:47 <Josh_Soref> Jim_: when we play a MediaStream in a media element
15:56:53 <Josh_Soref> ... the media element needs to know if it's done
15:56:57 <Josh_Soref> ... because it needs to play events
15:57:06 <Josh_Soref> ... it doesn't need to be an instance variable
15:57:15 <Josh_Soref> ... but it needs a single place with a definition
15:57:24 <Josh_Soref> hta: i think we have agreement on that
15:57:40 <Josh_Soref> ... but there's only one action... removing ended
15:57:48 <Josh_Soref> burn: who's willing to enter bugs?
15:57:57 <Josh_Soref> hta: i can enter them
15:58:03 <Josh_Soref> dom: we're talking about removing the ended attribute
15:58:07 <Josh_Soref> ... question about ended state
15:58:15 <Josh_Soref> ... and what about the ended event?
15:58:30 <Josh_Soref> burn: that naturally follows
15:58:37 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, gmandyam has left [Mozilla]
15:58:37 <Zakim> -gmandyam; got it
15:58:38 <dom> s/burn:/hta/
15:58:42 <dom> s/hta/hta:/
15:59:05 <Josh_Soref> burn: output-device-selection
15:59:08 <Josh_Soref> ... and Promises
15:59:22 <Josh_Soref> ... stefanh, do you have a quick update on Promises?
15:59:35 <Josh_Soref> stefanh: it turns out that DOM4 which includes Promises
15:59:41 <Josh_Soref> ... is not a W3 Spec, it's in WhatWG
15:59:57 <Josh_Soref> ... and i understand it can't be referenced
16:00:03 <Josh_Soref> ... we have to reference W3 DOM4
16:00:12 <Josh_Soref> ... so we can't reference Promises for the time being
16:00:18 <Josh_Soref> burn: we don't have a normative reference
16:00:27 <Josh_Soref> ... which will matter for LC
16:00:34 <Josh_Soref> dom: you don't need reference until CR
16:00:46 <burn> I mentioned CR as well
16:00:47 <Cow_woC> Cow_woC has joined #mediacap
16:00:47 <Josh_Soref> ... i don't think we should hold off on the tech for reasons of references
16:00:52 <Josh_Soref> s/LC/CR/
16:01:00 <Josh_Soref> s/I mentioned CR as well//
16:01:09 <Josh_Soref> dom: if we need/want references, i wouldn't hold off
16:01:13 <Josh_Soref> stefanh: i agree
16:01:21 <Josh_Soref> ... but the conclusion was...
16:01:46 <Josh_Soref> dom: if we want to use them, i don't think we should stop
16:01:49 <Josh_Soref> ... just because of this
16:02:19 <Josh_Soref> burn: bug 22251
16:02:25 <dom> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22251
16:02:29 <Josh_Soref> ... add error codes for HARDWARE_UNAVAILABLE and NO_DEVICES_FOUND
16:02:34 <Josh_Soref> ... not sure who's following
16:02:51 <Josh_Soref> hta: the feedback from anne
16:03:04 <Josh_Soref> ... was that for the other two error codes
16:03:11 <Josh_Soref> ... the dom-spec thing
16:03:30 <Josh_Soref> ... anne said the editor of JS is pushing back against adding more error codes
16:03:35 <Josh_Soref> ... which puzzled me a bit
16:04:09 <Josh_Soref> dom: i don't think the ability to report specific errors will be dropped anytime soon
16:04:19 <Josh_Soref> ... we should continue under the assumption that the current model is the correct one
16:04:27 <Josh_Soref> ... if we need new errors, define them in our document
16:04:38 <Josh_Soref> ... if DOM will define them in its document is unclear
16:04:57 <Josh_Soref> ... at least for my perspective, we should focus on whether these situations need distinct error messages
16:05:07 <Josh_Soref> ... clearly other specs not just our own...
16:05:18 <Josh_Soref> hta: you're suggesting keeping a table in our own spec
16:05:32 <Josh_Soref> ... in addition to dom errors, the name field have value?
16:05:38 <Josh_Soref> dom: with a note that we're trying to move them out
16:05:49 <Josh_Soref> ... i don't think coordination should prevent us from making design decisions
16:06:00 <Josh_Soref> hta: are people ok w/ the resolution
16:06:09 <Josh_Soref> ... source_unavailable
16:06:13 <fluffy> q+
16:06:23 <jesup> q-
16:06:28 <Josh_Soref> dom: there was some discussion on whether it's useful to distinguish hardware_unavailable and no_devices_found
16:06:42 <Josh_Soref> ekr: we're now working on device integration
16:06:51 <hta> s/integration/enumeration/
16:07:18 <Josh_Soref> ekr: specific settings that only apply to one camera
16:07:23 <Josh_Soref> ... and doesn't apply to another device
16:07:31 <Josh_Soref> ... why not give me hardware unavailable
16:07:41 <Josh_Soref> dom: hardware_unavailable is if you have a device id
16:08:00 <Josh_Soref> ... and no device found is when you want video and system only has microphone
16:08:13 <Josh_Soref> ack fluffy
16:08:14 <hta> q?
16:08:22 <Josh_Soref> fluffy: i'm not really
16:08:27 <hta> ack Cullen_Jennings
16:08:30 <Josh_Soref> ... i want to be clear how this error would be generated
16:08:37 <Josh_Soref> ... i was wondering how things would work
16:08:43 <Josh_Soref> ... if i had a non mandatory constraint for HD
16:08:49 <Josh_Soref> ... HD plugged in [busy]
16:08:52 <Josh_Soref> ... and non HD plugged in
16:09:00 <Josh_Soref> ... i'd certainly want the non HD camera
16:09:12 <Josh_Soref> ... i'd like the ability to show the user that the camera is in use by another application
16:09:22 <Josh_Soref> ... but i don't want that to break me getting cameras when i want them
16:09:29 <Josh_Soref> ... on Enumeration, i'd like to go back to that
16:09:42 <Josh_Soref> QQ: this is QR
16:09:43 <fluffy> q+
16:09:44 <fluffy> q-
16:09:47 <fluffy> q?
16:09:49 <Josh_Soref> ... i work for an imaging company
16:09:55 <Josh_Soref> ... i've been experimenting w/ HTML5
16:10:00 <ekr_> ekr_ has joined #mediacap
16:10:02 <Josh_Soref> ... and the ability to access cameras
16:10:07 <Josh_Soref> ... i'd like to be able to pick which camera
16:10:14 <Josh_Soref> ... i have a browser, a usb camera, one on the display
16:10:20 <Josh_Soref> ... everytime i have to go to the browser to pick it
16:10:30 <Josh_Soref> ... i'm not sure if this is what you're discussing
16:10:38 <Josh_Soref> ... being able to pick the camera and use it is very important
16:11:11 <Josh_Soref> PY: it's a public call, we want your input
16:11:15 <Josh_Soref> ... i have similar desires
16:11:20 <Josh_Soref> ... others do as well
16:11:20 <dom> s/PY/fluffy
16:11:28 <Josh_Soref> ... it's a tradeoff with privacy fingerprinting
16:11:32 <Josh_Soref> ... it's a longer topic
16:11:41 <Josh_Soref> ... i'm sure someone would be glad to run you through the background
16:12:01 <Josh_Soref> burn: fluffy and I should talk w/ you
16:12:15 <Josh_Soref> ... as one of the people to propose Constraints, I can give you the motivations for it
16:12:20 <Josh_Soref> ... there's another factor involved
16:12:28 <Josh_Soref> ... not every app developer wants to precisely select the device
16:12:34 <Josh_Soref> ... and also when you're dealing w/ PeerConnection
16:12:42 <Josh_Soref> ... and changes w/ device settings -- based on congestion
16:13:02 <Josh_Soref> ... we want input from developers and device manufacturers
16:13:11 <Josh_Soref> ... but for Patent Policy reasons, we need to know who is participating
16:13:22 <Josh_Soref> ... there are disclosure requirements
16:13:29 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, unmute [Mozilla]
16:13:29 <Zakim> [Mozilla] should no longer be muted
16:13:43 <Josh_Soref> QQ: i'm aware of the concern
16:14:34 <ekr_> burn is correct
16:14:35 <Josh_Soref> present+ Balwinder_Kaur
16:14:46 <Josh_Soref> s/QQ/Balwinder_Kaur/
16:14:46 <dom> s/QQ/Balwinder Kaur, Aptina Imaging/
16:15:17 <Josh_Soref> burn: fluffy pointed out that this is a bigger topic
16:15:23 <Josh_Soref> ... much more than we can complete in 5 minutes
16:15:27 <fluffy> Can some zakim expert add an action item for Dan and I to talk to the Aptina folks
16:15:28 <Josh_Soref> dom: i think that's probably correct
16:15:32 <Josh_Soref> Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
16:15:32 <Zakim> [Mozilla] should now be muted
16:16:16 <fluffy> thx
16:16:32 <Josh_Soref> s/thx//
16:16:45 <Josh_Soref> hta: the algorithm is...
16:16:52 <Josh_Soref> dom: i think firefox already uses error codes
16:17:14 <Josh_Soref> burn: for a long time, there has been some TBD in the Constraint satisfaction algorithm for names of errors to be generated
16:17:21 <Josh_Soref> ... sounds like we're finally getting names for them
16:17:36 <Josh_Soref> ACTION: burn to (and fluffy) contact Aptina
16:17:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - (and fluffy) contact aptina [on Daniel Burnett - due 2013-09-04].
16:17:49 <Josh_Soref> s/Josh_Soref/burn/
16:18:29 <timeless> burn: regarding output device selectoin
16:18:35 <timeless> s/selectoin/selection/
16:18:38 <timeless> ... any status on that
16:18:53 <timeless> stefanh: we had some proposal to move it to the HTML WG
16:19:01 <timeless> ... i don't know...
16:19:09 <timeless> hta: justin is on vacation
16:19:15 <timeless> ... i sent the proposal
16:19:28 <timeless> burn: what's the impact on our TF?
16:19:39 <timeless> stefanh: JJJJ
16:19:44 <timeless> ekr_: i don't agree with that
16:19:51 <ekr_> timeless: that was fluffy
16:19:57 <ekr_> I might disagree with it too, but I'm not sure yet
16:19:59 <timeless> s/timeless: that was fluffy//
16:20:05 <timeless> s/ekr_/fluffy/
16:20:23 <timeless> hta: public-html-wg@w3.org
16:20:35 <timeless> fluffy: how can they solve the problem?
16:20:35 <dom> s/-wg//
16:21:00 <timeless> hta: the concept that output-devices is the same as input-devices is not a well formed concept yet
16:21:03 <ekr_> I'm actually not sure how I would implement the thing fluffy phrased
16:21:24 <ekr_> Like, my mac has two displays each with a microphone and speaker
16:21:27 <timeless> fluffy: i think we need time to discuss
16:21:40 <ekr_> Does Cullen mean "the speaker associated with the display associated with this microphone"
16:21:46 <ekr_> ?
16:21:50 <timeless> burn: apparently we need discussion on the list about how much work needs to remain in this TF
16:22:43 <timeless> dom: you don't want to get into technical or political
16:23:07 <timeless> fluffy: opening new topics before we close things
16:23:15 <timeless> ... i object to it being closed rapidly
16:23:19 <timeless> ... sorry it was opened
16:23:30 <timeless> hta: when is the UUU coming out?
16:23:32 <timeless> fluffy: exactly
16:23:46 <timeless> burn: i'm going to declare my section on Media Capture+Streaming closed
16:23:47 <fluffy> s/UUU/ JSEP draft /
16:24:13 <dom> +1 to publish new WD
16:24:18 <timeless> stefanh: are people ok w/ a new draft?
16:24:22 <timeless> burn: i'm in favor
16:24:37 <timeless> ... clearly indicate current state
16:24:46 <timeless> dom: seems like ReSpec has a bug where you use a Sequence
16:24:56 <timeless> ... ideally the bug would be fixed in the generated version
16:25:07 <timeless> burn: dom does the adjustments needed to make the document legal for publication
16:25:19 <timeless> dom: i'll be happy to do it anyway
16:25:39 <timeless> burn: these challenges come up from time to time
16:25:50 <timeless> stefanh: sounds like no objection
16:26:26 <fjh> DAP is not meeting
16:26:42 <fjh> many of DAP participants plan to attend TPAC
16:27:06 <timeless> dom: sounds like many people in the TF are in WebRTC
16:27:10 <timeless> ... and a few people from DAP
16:27:26 <timeless> ... but those people are mostly in other WGs that would attend
16:27:27 <fjh> +1 to dom assessment that DAP participants likely to attend TF meeting on Thursday
16:27:30 <timeless> Zakim, unmute [Mozilla]
16:27:30 <Zakim> [Mozilla] should no longer be muted
16:27:55 <fjh> maybe you should set up a questionnaire regarding participation
16:28:14 <timeless> stefanh: we should probably do that
16:28:26 <timeless> Zakim, [Mozilla] now has gmandyam
16:28:26 <Zakim> +gmandyam; got it
16:28:34 <timeless> Zakim, [Mozilla] now has unknown_mozilla_technician
16:28:34 <Zakim> +unknown_mozilla_technician; got it
16:28:47 <fluffy> +3
16:28:53 <timeless> Many thanks to josh for scribing
16:28:55 <Zakim> - +1.510.996.aakk
16:28:56 <Zakim> -dom
16:29:00 <Zakim> -Dan_Burnett
16:29:01 <timeless> [ adjourned ]
16:29:01 <Zakim> -Cullen_Jennings
16:29:01 <Zakim> -Jim_Barnett
16:29:02 <Zakim> -adambe
16:29:04 <Zakim> -stefanh
16:29:04 <Zakim> -fjh
16:29:04 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
16:29:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:29:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.403.244.aaaa, Dan_Burnett, Cullen_Jennings, stefanh, Josh_Soref, gmandyam, +91.22.39.14.aabb, Jim_Barnett, fjh, +33.2.31.26.aacc,
16:29:05 <Zakim> ... +1.610.889.aadd, dom, jesup, +1.510.996.aaee, +1.650.241.aaff, +46.1.07.14.aagg, stephane_cazeaux, +1.650.678.aahh, adambe, hta, +1.650.678.aaii, +1.650.678.aajj, ekr,
16:29:05 <Zakim> ... +1.510.996.aakk, unknown_mozilla_technician
16:29:10 <Zakim> -ekr
16:29:11 <Zakim> -stephane_cazeaux
16:29:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:29:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html trackbot
16:29:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:29:13 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-actions.rdf :
16:29:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dom to ask WebApps about createObjectURL [1]
16:29:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-irc#T15-36-33
16:29:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: burn to (and fluffy) contact Aptina [2]
16:29:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-irc#T16-17-36
16:29:17 <Zakim> -jesup
16:29:23 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:29:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediacap
16:29:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-irc
16:30:04 <timeless> s/unknown_mozilla_technician/jbraddock/
16:30:13 <timeless> RRSAgent: draft minutes
16:30:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/28-mediacap-minutes.html timeless
16:30:18 <timeless> RRSAgent, bye
16:30:23 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:30:24 <timeless> RRSAgent, bye
16:30:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items