IRC log of closingthegap on 2013-04-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #closingthegap
14:45:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc
14:45:08 [dom]
Zakim, this will be CTGH
14:45:08 [Zakim]
ok, dom; I see MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:13 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:45:26 [dom]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-closingthegap/2013Apr/0038.html
14:45:28 [dom]
Chair: Dom
14:45:41 [dom]
Regrets: Charles, Frederick
14:57:14 [dom]
Zakim, code?
14:57:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom
14:57:28 [Zakim]
MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM has now started
14:57:35 [Zakim]
+??P0
14:57:37 [dom]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
14:57:37 [Zakim]
+dom; got it
14:59:16 [jo]
jo has joined #closingthegap
15:00:14 [Zakim]
+??P9
15:00:25 [dom]
Zakim, ??P9 is jo
15:00:25 [Zakim]
+jo; got it
15:00:27 [jo]
zakim, p9 is me
15:00:27 [Zakim]
sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'p9'
15:01:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.265.aaaa
15:01:59 [dom]
Zakim, aaaa is Scott_Jenson
15:01:59 [Zakim]
+Scott_Jenson; got it
15:02:34 [ScottJ]
ScottJ has joined #closingthegap
15:04:32 [dom]
Zakim, who's your daddy?
15:04:32 [Zakim]
Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, dom
15:05:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.208.aabb
15:06:13 [Zakim]
- +1.908.208.aabb
15:06:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.208.aacc
15:07:10 [dom]
Zakim, aacc is Dan.Sun
15:07:10 [Zakim]
+Dan.Sun; got it
15:07:40 [Zakim]
+Christine_Perey
15:09:10 [dom]
Zakim, who's on the call?
15:09:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dom, jo, Scott_Jenson, Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey
15:09:16 [dan]
dan has joined #closingthegap
15:10:16 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:10:32 [dom]
Zakim, IPcaller is Marcos
15:10:32 [Zakim]
+Marcos; got it
15:10:42 [Marcos]
Marcos has joined #closingthegap
15:11:39 [ScottJ]
nope
15:11:56 [jo]
scribe: Jo
15:12:05 [jo]
Meeting: Closing the Gap
15:12:14 [jo]
Topic: intro
15:12:39 [jo]
dom: everyone clear as to the purpose of the meeting, to develop action plans as mentioned in the email
15:12:57 [jo]
dom: going round the table. say something, say hello.
15:13:17 [jo]
dom: have we covered the main topics ?
15:13:43 [dom]
Jo: Jo Rabin, have been involved in a few W3C things, W3C Mobile Web Best Practices WG, and the W3C CoreMob CG
15:14:00 [dom]
... I'm interested in Mobile Web, not particularly interested in native apps even though they may have a place in the universe
15:14:29 [dom]
... I believe the main things of interest have been mentioned, despite relative lack of in depth analysis
15:14:40 [dom]
... I'm not sure we have aligned mind sets on the key points yet
15:15:20 [jo]
scott: first W3C meeting here to learn, approach from a design point of view
15:15:49 [jo]
... don't want to push for a tech agenda, want to now what an app is, what are the things that make the Web special
15:16:06 [jo]
... looking at the problem from a high level point of view
15:16:36 [jo]
dan: have been involved in the [Coremob] community group, appreciate Dom's work
15:16:50 [jo]
... what's the advantage of the Web? There was a discussion, still not too clear
15:17:25 [jo]
... we are trying to close the gap, we have a number of issues to work out, I'd like to bring up the advantages as well as working on the gaps
15:18:01 [jo]
dom: agree on the point re the advantage of the web, are you saying we haven't looked, or haven't looked deeply enough?
15:18:16 [jo]
dan: would be good to have a document, more than the one email discussion
15:18:27 [jo]
dom: I'll put my thoughts on the list
15:19:15 [jo]
christine: came into the discussion becasue I was aware of the Coremob work, work in AR, want to see it as a feature of all presentation vehicles rather than being 'an app'
15:20:11 [jo]
... been working in AR stds community for 4 years, regularly come around on Web vs Native, lots of W3C standards that could make AR part of the browser experience but they are not being used that way
15:20:23 [jo]
dom: encourage you to raise that gap on the list
15:20:40 [jo]
christine: I wouldn't be the best person to represent all devs
15:20:58 [jo]
dom: your own point of view would be welcome
15:21:17 [jo]
Marcos: involved with sysapps WG - there is an obvious overlap between this and that
15:21:31 [jo]
... think that the stuff Dom has brought together is great
15:21:47 [jo]
... good to have brought the ideas together
15:22:06 [jo]
... sysapps is interested to hear what comes out so we can address as soon as possible
15:22:13 [jo]
dom: what gaps do you see?
15:22:38 [jo]
marcos: gaps everywhere. working on a lot of technologues to address those gaps
15:22:47 [jo]
... Web has of itself lots of advantages
15:23:05 [jo]
... should be a sense of urgency about closing and leap-frogging the native app space
15:23:22 [jo]
... have a good set of technologies, just need to bring it together
15:23:37 [jo]
Dom: introducing myself, head of W3C Mobile Web Intiative
15:23:51 [jo]
... edit Standards for Mobile Web Apps, summary of where things are
15:24:09 [jo]
... also been working Coremob on to be the Web and Mobile IG
15:24:22 [jo]
... as to gaps ... I've tried to push all that I had
15:25:23 [jo]
... but realise I forgot integrating Content into search in local context, not available to Web apps, some oppos for integration
15:25:42 [jo]
... lots of [alphabet soup] :-)
15:26:17 [jo]
Scott: this is tarting the conversation as to what are the primary goals, Google already working on a model to install Web apps
15:26:27 [jo]
... but this does not play to the super power of the Web
15:26:42 [jo]
... do we want to be installed, or do we want to experience the app
15:27:04 [jo]
... need to distinguish the packaging from the experience
15:27:14 [jo]
dom: mostly about integration with the environment
15:27:27 [jo]
... Web apps should be able to integrate with this
15:28:02 [jo]
... question you raise and that we have struggled with is how far do we want to copy the native app experience, and how far do we want to push the no-install purely in browser experience
15:28:30 [jo]
... W3C is pursuing both spproaches. there are advantages to both so that is reasonable
15:28:56 [jo]
... there is a wealth of opportunities that installation removes (... lack of censorship and so on ...)
15:29:13 [jo]
... all of us on the call and list believe that the Web brings specific unique advantages
15:29:29 [jo]
... a long term platform that =has the right level of investmanet attnetion etc.
15:29:48 [jo]
... need to think about wehre native apps are superior
15:30:04 [jo]
... leapfrog as Marcos says is better than closing the gap
15:30:24 [jo]
... pur intallable vs pure in-browser is something we could address and include in various proposals
15:30:47 [jo]
... [comapre and contrast what we could say about pros and cons]
15:31:16 [jo]
... we need to have clear understanding of advantages and drawback of both approaches
15:31:32 [jo]
... social contract discussion was pretty rich in that regard
15:31:50 [jo]
... but where does that leave us in thinking about investment
15:32:26 [jo]
... so goal is to figure where to apply resources
15:32:28 [ScottJ]
Well put, I just don't want us to aspire to catch up to where apps were 5 years ago. The web can go beyond what native apps can't do..
15:32:37 [jo]
q+
15:32:59 [dom]
Jo: I feel pretty strongly that there are areas that the Web has been left in the dust
15:33:37 [dom]
... there are real areas: mindshare, monetization, ...
15:34:04 [dom]
... I feel our energy would be best invested in bringing forward the Web advantages
15:34:12 [dom]
... that's where we're most likely to be successful
15:34:19 [dom]
... where the Web is unique
15:34:31 [dom]
... in particular, in the cross-platform realm
15:34:47 [dom]
... as long as the Web is good enough compared to native otherwise
15:35:07 [jo]
ack me
15:35:56 [ScottJ_]
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15:36:34 [jo]
dom: that's a clear position, I think I agree with that characterisation with the possible exception that the Web may not be good enough in any particular area
15:36:37 [dan]
q+
15:36:45 [jo]
jo: I don't disagree with what you say
15:36:59 [jo]
]dan: I wagree with Jo, we should look at the unique advantages of the Web
15:37:16 [ScottJ_]
+1
15:37:17 [jo]
... to simply say close the gap, the topic is huge, native has its own advantages
15:37:25 [jo]
... emaphasie the Web's advantages
15:37:45 [jo]
s/emaphasie/emphasize/
15:38:10 [jo]
dom: was only one of the starting points, we haven't discussed it much and will send my thoughts on this
15:38:31 [cperey]
I'm signing off for toda
15:38:33 [jo]
... will people contribute their dieas on how we can captialize on the unique advantages of the Web
15:38:35 [cperey]
bye
15:38:42 [Zakim]
-Christine_Perey
15:39:01 [jo]
... I'll do my best tos end my thoughts and hope that people will sent theirs too
15:39:16 [jo]
topic: Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan
15:39:33 [jo]
dom: I sent a description earlier on list
15:40:00 [jo]
... also sent list of actions that W3C could take e.g. create WG, workshops, putting more resources into WG
15:40:05 [jo]
... etc etc etc
15:40:28 [jo]
... for each topic I'd like to see what action could be taken
15:40:50 [jo]
... and to assess whether people think that this is a sensible action plan
15:40:58 [jo]
... may be difficult to get hold of people
15:41:10 [jo]
... task force will support people taking actions
15:41:24 [jo]
... if we don't make proposals then we won't get more resources
15:41:34 [jo]
... important to get actual stuff defined and proposed
15:41:49 [jo]
... so one by one on the list
15:42:02 [jo]
topic: Support for Offline Operations
15:42:24 [jo]
Dom: the existing technologies are "underwhelming", there is work in this space
15:42:41 [jo]
... work is very important for a huge number of use cases
15:42:52 [jo]
... would make sense to make a plan to accelerate that work
15:43:00 [jo]
+1 on it being importan
15:43:19 [jo]
marcos: yes, important, Mozilla has made a proposal
15:43:30 [dom]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html
15:43:39 [jo]
dom: was linked from my original message
15:44:02 [jo]
marcos: tricky to get realistic, difficult to get momentum
15:44:15 [jo]
dom: agree difficult to get browser vendor buy-in
15:44:31 [jo]
... one way would be to get feedback from wide variety of developers
15:44:36 [jo]
... could help test
15:44:41 [jo]
... light fires under people
15:44:54 [jo]
... Alex Russel from Google also made a proposal
15:45:07 [jo]
... anyone going to make a stab at making an action plan
15:45:26 [jo]
... aw, shucks, I'll take this one, but I am not going to do all of them!
15:45:28 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support
15:45:29 [Marcos]
https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
15:45:52 [jo]
marcos: what's the alternative proposal
15:46:04 [jo]
dom: navigation controller
15:46:06 [Marcos]
marcos: https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
15:47:41 [jo]
jo: surely this is a discussion that has happened in depth and one of the participants could take lead?
15:47:58 [jo]
dom: yes, I'll contact Tobie and Robin
15:48:08 [jo]
topic: Network Optimizations
15:48:30 [jo]
dom: to be effective on mobile you need to be reactive to various network conditions
15:48:45 [jo]
... especially for download etc.
15:49:00 [jo]
... related is that operators are suffeering from badly managed movbile operation
15:49:11 [jo]
... couple of proposals on list on how we can address this
15:49:19 [jo]
... anyone want to pick this up?
15:49:32 [jo]
... Dan is an operator, how about it?
15:49:51 [jo]
jo: how about Dan Appelquist
15:50:00 [jo]
Marcos: work is important but very broad
15:50:09 [jo]
... does it make sense to break it up
15:50:25 [jo]
... responsive images ... relationship with HTTP 2.0
15:50:42 [jo]
s.P 2.P/2.
15:50:55 [jo]
dom: you volunteering?
15:51:23 [jo]
marcos: already doing work on this, what are you looking for?
15:51:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.257.aadd
15:51:53 [jo]
dom: come up with an action plan ... looking at broad topic and suggestion actions that will make the Web more competitive
15:51:54 [virginie]
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15:52:08 [jo]
... see the link with Resposive Images, wouldn't want to limit it
15:52:19 [jo]
Marcos: I know waht I know about
15:52:49 [jo]
... but don't know the whole perspective from an operator so would want to work with someone like Dan Appelquist
15:53:05 [jo]
dom: want one name, you can then work with anyone you like
15:53:19 [ScottJ_]
Happy to help
15:53:21 [jo]
... plus tobie and bryan from AT&T
15:53:34 [jo]
... no shortage of people to pick their brains
15:53:38 [jo]
Marcos: OK
15:53:41 [dom]
ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network optimizations
15:53:53 [jo]
topic: Searching Web Apps
15:54:17 [jo]
dom: we discussed earlier highlight benefit of Web, this is at the the frontier
15:54:28 [jo]
... traditionally Web is the platform for searching
15:54:35 [jo]
... huge beneit
15:55:23 [jo]
... that said I it works well for content it don't work work too good for local content, content behind walls etc.
15:55:52 [jo]
... search is less effective. Devs say that if I want my stuff to be visible I need to be on native app store
15:56:28 [jo]
... very little interest in app store model, lack of visibility of Web apps keeps people from using Web app approach
15:56:37 [jo]
... anyone going to look deeper into this?
15:56:59 [jo]
... that means folks don't think important
15:57:06 [jo]
... I'll try to stick this to Chaals
15:57:26 [jo]
... otherwise we wont be recommending it
15:57:35 [jo]
topic: Web Apps User Experience
15:57:53 [jo]
dom: finding the right balance between integration and the lack of installation
15:58:10 [jo]
... what can W3C do to help in that convo
15:58:25 [jo]
... we don't have a clear idea at all about what W3C could or should be doing
15:58:27 [ScottJ_]
I'd love to help but I'm such a w3c noob I'm worried that I might not have the right approach
15:58:36 [jo]
... action plan to refocus on some specific ideas
15:58:50 [jo]
... Scott you are the ideal geezer to do this
15:59:21 [Marcos]
+q
15:59:36 [jo]
... need to find out if any of the topics we have discussed needs acrtion, not only from W3C, but how can W3C help?
15:59:41 [ScottJ_]
great, sign me up, but be prepared for a few phone calls... ;-)
15:59:42 [jo]
ack m
15:59:45 [dom]
q- dan
16:00:03 [jo]
marcos: at the last Webapps meeting Mozilla proposed a manifest format
16:00:07 [Marcos]
http://manifest.sysapps.org/
16:00:26 [jo]
... which basically serves as the installation manifest for Web application
16:00:39 [jo]
... topic relates to installed and not installed and where they come together
16:00:49 [jo]
... interested in pushing the work in W3C
16:01:09 [jo]
... has been in ??? but moving over to Webapps which has more browser vendors
16:01:24 [ScottJ_]
<sorry, I have a hard 9am meeting, have to drop off. I think I'm on the hook, let's follow up via email>
16:01:36 [jo]
... want to look at this from a higher level, less tech perspective, look at use cases
16:01:40 [ScottJ_]
thanks, enjoyed this!
16:01:41 [ScottJ_]
bye
16:01:44 [jo]
... scott's on the hook!
16:01:52 [dom]
ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps UX
16:01:53 [Zakim]
-Scott_Jenson
16:03:51 [Zakim]
-jo
16:03:59 [jo]
jo has left #closingthegap
16:04:24 [Marcos]
dom: the next one is security
16:05:41 [Marcos]
dom: Luckly we have virginie here. This one deals with secure transactions, securing data. We've had a short discussion on the list already. I feel there is no reason why the Web should be behind with regards to security.
16:06:04 [Marcos]
dom: I'm looking for expressions of support. And for a volunteer.
16:06:34 [Marcos]
virginie: we (Gemalto) are interested in this area.
16:07:08 [Marcos]
dom: what I'm looking for is for someone to help document what the gaps are between native and web with regards to crypto and security.
16:07:14 [Marcos]
virginie: what's the deadline
16:07:23 [Marcos]
virginie: ?
16:07:42 [Marcos]
dom: sometime in the next 3 or 4 weeks?
16:08:00 [Marcos]
virginie: I'm not sure if I can do it that quickly. But I will do my best :)
16:08:33 [dom]
ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security of Web apps
16:08:35 [Marcos]
dom: thanks. I'm not asking for a complete analysis, just for a fairly light analysis of the gap to help guide us.
16:09:48 [Marcos]
dom: another one that I wanted to mention, which has received limited attention on the list is AppCache. AppCache has had issues, even though it's been around for 6 years, but it's taken 4 years for people to say that it was not the right solution.
16:10:36 [Marcos]
dom: I was interested in looking at what happened and why it took so long to address this problem. Is there something that the W3C could have done better? It would be good to look into what happened.
16:10:42 [Marcos]
dom: any feedback on this?
16:13:00 [Marcos]
http://prollyfill.org/
16:13:36 [dom]
http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
16:16:06 [Marcos]
MC: the TAG is also looking at this problem
16:16:23 [Marcos]
MC: and http://prollyfill.org/ is also looking at this
16:17:23 [dom]
functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer tools
16:17:51 [Marcos]
dom: the remaining items that need volunteers are: functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer tools
16:18:40 [Zakim]
-dom
16:18:41 [Zakim]
- +1.512.257.aadd
16:18:43 [Zakim]
-Marcos
16:18:43 [Zakim]
-Dan.Sun
16:18:44 [Zakim]
MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM has ended
16:18:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were dom, jo, +1.650.265.aaaa, Scott_Jenson, +1.908.208.aabb, +1.908.208.aacc, Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey, Marcos, +1.512.257.aadd
16:18:49 [dom]
Zakim, aadd was virginie
16:18:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aadd was virginie', dom
16:19:00 [dom]
Present+ Virginie
16:19:07 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:19:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom
16:19:46 [dom]
i/<dom> Jo: I feel /ScribeNick: dom
16:20:13 [dom]
i/<jo>: dom: that's a/ScribeNick: jo
16:20:37 [dom]
i/<Marcos> dom: the next /ScribeNick: Marcos
16:20:47 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:20:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom
16:21:22 [dom]
i/<jo> dom: that's a clear position/ScribeNick: jo
16:21:22 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:21:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom
16:22:19 [dom]
Zakim, bye
16:22:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #closingthegap
16:22:21 [dom]
RRSAgent, bye
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-actions.rdf :
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support [1]
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T15-45-28
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network optimizations [2]
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T15-53-41
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps UX [3]
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T16-01-52
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security of Web apps [4]
16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T16-08-33