IRC log of closingthegap on 2013-04-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:45:00 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #closingthegap
- 14:45:00 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc
- 14:45:08 [dom]
- Zakim, this will be CTGH
- 14:45:08 [Zakim]
- ok, dom; I see MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
- 14:45:13 [dom]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 14:45:26 [dom]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-closingthegap/2013Apr/0038.html
- 14:45:28 [dom]
- Chair: Dom
- 14:45:41 [dom]
- Regrets: Charles, Frederick
- 14:57:14 [dom]
- Zakim, code?
- 14:57:14 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 2844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom
- 14:57:28 [Zakim]
- MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM has now started
- 14:57:35 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 14:57:37 [dom]
- Zakim, ??P0 is me
- 14:57:37 [Zakim]
- +dom; got it
- 14:59:16 [jo]
- jo has joined #closingthegap
- 15:00:14 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 15:00:25 [dom]
- Zakim, ??P9 is jo
- 15:00:25 [Zakim]
- +jo; got it
- 15:00:27 [jo]
- zakim, p9 is me
- 15:00:27 [Zakim]
- sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'p9'
- 15:01:42 [Zakim]
- + +1.650.265.aaaa
- 15:01:59 [dom]
- Zakim, aaaa is Scott_Jenson
- 15:01:59 [Zakim]
- +Scott_Jenson; got it
- 15:02:34 [ScottJ]
- ScottJ has joined #closingthegap
- 15:04:32 [dom]
- Zakim, who's your daddy?
- 15:04:32 [Zakim]
- Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, dom
- 15:05:40 [Zakim]
- + +1.908.208.aabb
- 15:06:13 [Zakim]
- - +1.908.208.aabb
- 15:06:41 [Zakim]
- + +1.908.208.aacc
- 15:07:10 [dom]
- Zakim, aacc is Dan.Sun
- 15:07:10 [Zakim]
- +Dan.Sun; got it
- 15:07:40 [Zakim]
- +Christine_Perey
- 15:09:10 [dom]
- Zakim, who's on the call?
- 15:09:10 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see dom, jo, Scott_Jenson, Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey
- 15:09:16 [dan]
- dan has joined #closingthegap
- 15:10:16 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:10:32 [dom]
- Zakim, IPcaller is Marcos
- 15:10:32 [Zakim]
- +Marcos; got it
- 15:10:42 [Marcos]
- Marcos has joined #closingthegap
- 15:11:39 [ScottJ]
- nope
- 15:11:56 [jo]
- scribe: Jo
- 15:12:05 [jo]
- Meeting: Closing the Gap
- 15:12:14 [jo]
- Topic: intro
- 15:12:39 [jo]
- dom: everyone clear as to the purpose of the meeting, to develop action plans as mentioned in the email
- 15:12:57 [jo]
- dom: going round the table. say something, say hello.
- 15:13:17 [jo]
- dom: have we covered the main topics ?
- 15:13:43 [dom]
- Jo: Jo Rabin, have been involved in a few W3C things, W3C Mobile Web Best Practices WG, and the W3C CoreMob CG
- 15:14:00 [dom]
- ... I'm interested in Mobile Web, not particularly interested in native apps even though they may have a place in the universe
- 15:14:29 [dom]
- ... I believe the main things of interest have been mentioned, despite relative lack of in depth analysis
- 15:14:40 [dom]
- ... I'm not sure we have aligned mind sets on the key points yet
- 15:15:20 [jo]
- scott: first W3C meeting here to learn, approach from a design point of view
- 15:15:49 [jo]
- ... don't want to push for a tech agenda, want to now what an app is, what are the things that make the Web special
- 15:16:06 [jo]
- ... looking at the problem from a high level point of view
- 15:16:36 [jo]
- dan: have been involved in the [Coremob] community group, appreciate Dom's work
- 15:16:50 [jo]
- ... what's the advantage of the Web? There was a discussion, still not too clear
- 15:17:25 [jo]
- ... we are trying to close the gap, we have a number of issues to work out, I'd like to bring up the advantages as well as working on the gaps
- 15:18:01 [jo]
- dom: agree on the point re the advantage of the web, are you saying we haven't looked, or haven't looked deeply enough?
- 15:18:16 [jo]
- dan: would be good to have a document, more than the one email discussion
- 15:18:27 [jo]
- dom: I'll put my thoughts on the list
- 15:19:15 [jo]
- christine: came into the discussion becasue I was aware of the Coremob work, work in AR, want to see it as a feature of all presentation vehicles rather than being 'an app'
- 15:20:11 [jo]
- ... been working in AR stds community for 4 years, regularly come around on Web vs Native, lots of W3C standards that could make AR part of the browser experience but they are not being used that way
- 15:20:23 [jo]
- dom: encourage you to raise that gap on the list
- 15:20:40 [jo]
- christine: I wouldn't be the best person to represent all devs
- 15:20:58 [jo]
- dom: your own point of view would be welcome
- 15:21:17 [jo]
- Marcos: involved with sysapps WG - there is an obvious overlap between this and that
- 15:21:31 [jo]
- ... think that the stuff Dom has brought together is great
- 15:21:47 [jo]
- ... good to have brought the ideas together
- 15:22:06 [jo]
- ... sysapps is interested to hear what comes out so we can address as soon as possible
- 15:22:13 [jo]
- dom: what gaps do you see?
- 15:22:38 [jo]
- marcos: gaps everywhere. working on a lot of technologues to address those gaps
- 15:22:47 [jo]
- ... Web has of itself lots of advantages
- 15:23:05 [jo]
- ... should be a sense of urgency about closing and leap-frogging the native app space
- 15:23:22 [jo]
- ... have a good set of technologies, just need to bring it together
- 15:23:37 [jo]
- Dom: introducing myself, head of W3C Mobile Web Intiative
- 15:23:51 [jo]
- ... edit Standards for Mobile Web Apps, summary of where things are
- 15:24:09 [jo]
- ... also been working Coremob on to be the Web and Mobile IG
- 15:24:22 [jo]
- ... as to gaps ... I've tried to push all that I had
- 15:25:23 [jo]
- ... but realise I forgot integrating Content into search in local context, not available to Web apps, some oppos for integration
- 15:25:42 [jo]
- ... lots of [alphabet soup] :-)
- 15:26:17 [jo]
- Scott: this is tarting the conversation as to what are the primary goals, Google already working on a model to install Web apps
- 15:26:27 [jo]
- ... but this does not play to the super power of the Web
- 15:26:42 [jo]
- ... do we want to be installed, or do we want to experience the app
- 15:27:04 [jo]
- ... need to distinguish the packaging from the experience
- 15:27:14 [jo]
- dom: mostly about integration with the environment
- 15:27:27 [jo]
- ... Web apps should be able to integrate with this
- 15:28:02 [jo]
- ... question you raise and that we have struggled with is how far do we want to copy the native app experience, and how far do we want to push the no-install purely in browser experience
- 15:28:30 [jo]
- ... W3C is pursuing both spproaches. there are advantages to both so that is reasonable
- 15:28:56 [jo]
- ... there is a wealth of opportunities that installation removes (... lack of censorship and so on ...)
- 15:29:13 [jo]
- ... all of us on the call and list believe that the Web brings specific unique advantages
- 15:29:29 [jo]
- ... a long term platform that =has the right level of investmanet attnetion etc.
- 15:29:48 [jo]
- ... need to think about wehre native apps are superior
- 15:30:04 [jo]
- ... leapfrog as Marcos says is better than closing the gap
- 15:30:24 [jo]
- ... pur intallable vs pure in-browser is something we could address and include in various proposals
- 15:30:47 [jo]
- ... [comapre and contrast what we could say about pros and cons]
- 15:31:16 [jo]
- ... we need to have clear understanding of advantages and drawback of both approaches
- 15:31:32 [jo]
- ... social contract discussion was pretty rich in that regard
- 15:31:50 [jo]
- ... but where does that leave us in thinking about investment
- 15:32:26 [jo]
- ... so goal is to figure where to apply resources
- 15:32:28 [ScottJ]
- Well put, I just don't want us to aspire to catch up to where apps were 5 years ago. The web can go beyond what native apps can't do..
- 15:32:37 [jo]
- q+
- 15:32:59 [dom]
- Jo: I feel pretty strongly that there are areas that the Web has been left in the dust
- 15:33:37 [dom]
- ... there are real areas: mindshare, monetization, ...
- 15:34:04 [dom]
- ... I feel our energy would be best invested in bringing forward the Web advantages
- 15:34:12 [dom]
- ... that's where we're most likely to be successful
- 15:34:19 [dom]
- ... where the Web is unique
- 15:34:31 [dom]
- ... in particular, in the cross-platform realm
- 15:34:47 [dom]
- ... as long as the Web is good enough compared to native otherwise
- 15:35:07 [jo]
- ack me
- 15:35:56 [ScottJ_]
- ScottJ_ has joined #closingthegap
- 15:36:34 [jo]
- dom: that's a clear position, I think I agree with that characterisation with the possible exception that the Web may not be good enough in any particular area
- 15:36:37 [dan]
- q+
- 15:36:45 [jo]
- jo: I don't disagree with what you say
- 15:36:59 [jo]
- ]dan: I wagree with Jo, we should look at the unique advantages of the Web
- 15:37:16 [ScottJ_]
- +1
- 15:37:17 [jo]
- ... to simply say close the gap, the topic is huge, native has its own advantages
- 15:37:25 [jo]
- ... emaphasie the Web's advantages
- 15:37:45 [jo]
- s/emaphasie/emphasize/
- 15:38:10 [jo]
- dom: was only one of the starting points, we haven't discussed it much and will send my thoughts on this
- 15:38:31 [cperey]
- I'm signing off for toda
- 15:38:33 [jo]
- ... will people contribute their dieas on how we can captialize on the unique advantages of the Web
- 15:38:35 [cperey]
- bye
- 15:38:42 [Zakim]
- -Christine_Perey
- 15:39:01 [jo]
- ... I'll do my best tos end my thoughts and hope that people will sent theirs too
- 15:39:16 [jo]
- topic: Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan
- 15:39:33 [jo]
- dom: I sent a description earlier on list
- 15:40:00 [jo]
- ... also sent list of actions that W3C could take e.g. create WG, workshops, putting more resources into WG
- 15:40:05 [jo]
- ... etc etc etc
- 15:40:28 [jo]
- ... for each topic I'd like to see what action could be taken
- 15:40:50 [jo]
- ... and to assess whether people think that this is a sensible action plan
- 15:40:58 [jo]
- ... may be difficult to get hold of people
- 15:41:10 [jo]
- ... task force will support people taking actions
- 15:41:24 [jo]
- ... if we don't make proposals then we won't get more resources
- 15:41:34 [jo]
- ... important to get actual stuff defined and proposed
- 15:41:49 [jo]
- ... so one by one on the list
- 15:42:02 [jo]
- topic: Support for Offline Operations
- 15:42:24 [jo]
- Dom: the existing technologies are "underwhelming", there is work in this space
- 15:42:41 [jo]
- ... work is very important for a huge number of use cases
- 15:42:52 [jo]
- ... would make sense to make a plan to accelerate that work
- 15:43:00 [jo]
- +1 on it being importan
- 15:43:19 [jo]
- marcos: yes, important, Mozilla has made a proposal
- 15:43:30 [dom]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html
- 15:43:39 [jo]
- dom: was linked from my original message
- 15:44:02 [jo]
- marcos: tricky to get realistic, difficult to get momentum
- 15:44:15 [jo]
- dom: agree difficult to get browser vendor buy-in
- 15:44:31 [jo]
- ... one way would be to get feedback from wide variety of developers
- 15:44:36 [jo]
- ... could help test
- 15:44:41 [jo]
- ... light fires under people
- 15:44:54 [jo]
- ... Alex Russel from Google also made a proposal
- 15:45:07 [jo]
- ... anyone going to make a stab at making an action plan
- 15:45:26 [jo]
- ... aw, shucks, I'll take this one, but I am not going to do all of them!
- 15:45:28 [dom]
- ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support
- 15:45:29 [Marcos]
- https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
- 15:45:52 [jo]
- marcos: what's the alternative proposal
- 15:46:04 [jo]
- dom: navigation controller
- 15:46:06 [Marcos]
- marcos: https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
- 15:47:41 [jo]
- jo: surely this is a discussion that has happened in depth and one of the participants could take lead?
- 15:47:58 [jo]
- dom: yes, I'll contact Tobie and Robin
- 15:48:08 [jo]
- topic: Network Optimizations
- 15:48:30 [jo]
- dom: to be effective on mobile you need to be reactive to various network conditions
- 15:48:45 [jo]
- ... especially for download etc.
- 15:49:00 [jo]
- ... related is that operators are suffeering from badly managed movbile operation
- 15:49:11 [jo]
- ... couple of proposals on list on how we can address this
- 15:49:19 [jo]
- ... anyone want to pick this up?
- 15:49:32 [jo]
- ... Dan is an operator, how about it?
- 15:49:51 [jo]
- jo: how about Dan Appelquist
- 15:50:00 [jo]
- Marcos: work is important but very broad
- 15:50:09 [jo]
- ... does it make sense to break it up
- 15:50:25 [jo]
- ... responsive images ... relationship with HTTP 2.0
- 15:50:42 [jo]
- s.P 2.P/2.
- 15:50:55 [jo]
- dom: you volunteering?
- 15:51:23 [jo]
- marcos: already doing work on this, what are you looking for?
- 15:51:30 [Zakim]
- + +1.512.257.aadd
- 15:51:53 [jo]
- dom: come up with an action plan ... looking at broad topic and suggestion actions that will make the Web more competitive
- 15:51:54 [virginie]
- virginie has joined #closingthegap
- 15:52:08 [jo]
- ... see the link with Resposive Images, wouldn't want to limit it
- 15:52:19 [jo]
- Marcos: I know waht I know about
- 15:52:49 [jo]
- ... but don't know the whole perspective from an operator so would want to work with someone like Dan Appelquist
- 15:53:05 [jo]
- dom: want one name, you can then work with anyone you like
- 15:53:19 [ScottJ_]
- Happy to help
- 15:53:21 [jo]
- ... plus tobie and bryan from AT&T
- 15:53:34 [jo]
- ... no shortage of people to pick their brains
- 15:53:38 [jo]
- Marcos: OK
- 15:53:41 [dom]
- ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network optimizations
- 15:53:53 [jo]
- topic: Searching Web Apps
- 15:54:17 [jo]
- dom: we discussed earlier highlight benefit of Web, this is at the the frontier
- 15:54:28 [jo]
- ... traditionally Web is the platform for searching
- 15:54:35 [jo]
- ... huge beneit
- 15:55:23 [jo]
- ... that said I it works well for content it don't work work too good for local content, content behind walls etc.
- 15:55:52 [jo]
- ... search is less effective. Devs say that if I want my stuff to be visible I need to be on native app store
- 15:56:28 [jo]
- ... very little interest in app store model, lack of visibility of Web apps keeps people from using Web app approach
- 15:56:37 [jo]
- ... anyone going to look deeper into this?
- 15:56:59 [jo]
- ... that means folks don't think important
- 15:57:06 [jo]
- ... I'll try to stick this to Chaals
- 15:57:26 [jo]
- ... otherwise we wont be recommending it
- 15:57:35 [jo]
- topic: Web Apps User Experience
- 15:57:53 [jo]
- dom: finding the right balance between integration and the lack of installation
- 15:58:10 [jo]
- ... what can W3C do to help in that convo
- 15:58:25 [jo]
- ... we don't have a clear idea at all about what W3C could or should be doing
- 15:58:27 [ScottJ_]
- I'd love to help but I'm such a w3c noob I'm worried that I might not have the right approach
- 15:58:36 [jo]
- ... action plan to refocus on some specific ideas
- 15:58:50 [jo]
- ... Scott you are the ideal geezer to do this
- 15:59:21 [Marcos]
- +q
- 15:59:36 [jo]
- ... need to find out if any of the topics we have discussed needs acrtion, not only from W3C, but how can W3C help?
- 15:59:41 [ScottJ_]
- great, sign me up, but be prepared for a few phone calls... ;-)
- 15:59:42 [jo]
- ack m
- 15:59:45 [dom]
- q- dan
- 16:00:03 [jo]
- marcos: at the last Webapps meeting Mozilla proposed a manifest format
- 16:00:07 [Marcos]
- http://manifest.sysapps.org/
- 16:00:26 [jo]
- ... which basically serves as the installation manifest for Web application
- 16:00:39 [jo]
- ... topic relates to installed and not installed and where they come together
- 16:00:49 [jo]
- ... interested in pushing the work in W3C
- 16:01:09 [jo]
- ... has been in ??? but moving over to Webapps which has more browser vendors
- 16:01:24 [ScottJ_]
- <sorry, I have a hard 9am meeting, have to drop off. I think I'm on the hook, let's follow up via email>
- 16:01:36 [jo]
- ... want to look at this from a higher level, less tech perspective, look at use cases
- 16:01:40 [ScottJ_]
- thanks, enjoyed this!
- 16:01:41 [ScottJ_]
- bye
- 16:01:44 [jo]
- ... scott's on the hook!
- 16:01:52 [dom]
- ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps UX
- 16:01:53 [Zakim]
- -Scott_Jenson
- 16:03:51 [Zakim]
- -jo
- 16:03:59 [jo]
- jo has left #closingthegap
- 16:04:24 [Marcos]
- dom: the next one is security
- 16:05:41 [Marcos]
- dom: Luckly we have virginie here. This one deals with secure transactions, securing data. We've had a short discussion on the list already. I feel there is no reason why the Web should be behind with regards to security.
- 16:06:04 [Marcos]
- dom: I'm looking for expressions of support. And for a volunteer.
- 16:06:34 [Marcos]
- virginie: we (Gemalto) are interested in this area.
- 16:07:08 [Marcos]
- dom: what I'm looking for is for someone to help document what the gaps are between native and web with regards to crypto and security.
- 16:07:14 [Marcos]
- virginie: what's the deadline
- 16:07:23 [Marcos]
- virginie: ?
- 16:07:42 [Marcos]
- dom: sometime in the next 3 or 4 weeks?
- 16:08:00 [Marcos]
- virginie: I'm not sure if I can do it that quickly. But I will do my best :)
- 16:08:33 [dom]
- ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security of Web apps
- 16:08:35 [Marcos]
- dom: thanks. I'm not asking for a complete analysis, just for a fairly light analysis of the gap to help guide us.
- 16:09:48 [Marcos]
- dom: another one that I wanted to mention, which has received limited attention on the list is AppCache. AppCache has had issues, even though it's been around for 6 years, but it's taken 4 years for people to say that it was not the right solution.
- 16:10:36 [Marcos]
- dom: I was interested in looking at what happened and why it took so long to address this problem. Is there something that the W3C could have done better? It would be good to look into what happened.
- 16:10:42 [Marcos]
- dom: any feedback on this?
- 16:13:00 [Marcos]
- http://prollyfill.org/
- 16:13:36 [dom]
- http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
- 16:16:06 [Marcos]
- MC: the TAG is also looking at this problem
- 16:16:23 [Marcos]
- MC: and http://prollyfill.org/ is also looking at this
- 16:17:23 [dom]
- functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer tools
- 16:17:51 [Marcos]
- dom: the remaining items that need volunteers are: functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer tools
- 16:18:40 [Zakim]
- -dom
- 16:18:41 [Zakim]
- - +1.512.257.aadd
- 16:18:43 [Zakim]
- -Marcos
- 16:18:43 [Zakim]
- -Dan.Sun
- 16:18:44 [Zakim]
- MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM has ended
- 16:18:44 [Zakim]
- Attendees were dom, jo, +1.650.265.aaaa, Scott_Jenson, +1.908.208.aabb, +1.908.208.aacc, Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey, Marcos, +1.512.257.aadd
- 16:18:49 [dom]
- Zakim, aadd was virginie
- 16:18:49 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'aadd was virginie', dom
- 16:19:00 [dom]
- Present+ Virginie
- 16:19:07 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:19:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom
- 16:19:46 [dom]
- i/<dom> Jo: I feel /ScribeNick: dom
- 16:20:13 [dom]
- i/<jo>: dom: that's a/ScribeNick: jo
- 16:20:37 [dom]
- i/<Marcos> dom: the next /ScribeNick: Marcos
- 16:20:47 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:20:47 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom
- 16:21:22 [dom]
- i/<jo> dom: that's a clear position/ScribeNick: jo
- 16:21:22 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:21:22 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom
- 16:22:19 [dom]
- Zakim, bye
- 16:22:19 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #closingthegap
- 16:22:21 [dom]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-actions.rdf :
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support [1]
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T15-45-28
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network optimizations [2]
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T15-53-41
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps UX [3]
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T16-01-52
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security of Web apps [4]
- 16:22:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T16-08-33