IRC log of tt on 2013-01-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:49 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tt

14:56:49 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc

14:56:51 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:56:51 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #tt

14:56:53 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be TTML

14:56:53 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:56:54 [trackbot]

Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

14:56:54 [trackbot]

Date: 10 January 2013

14:57:01 [mmartin3]

chair sean hayes

14:57:41 [Zakim]

SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started

14:57:48 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

14:58:07 [Andreas]

Andreas has joined #tt

14:58:10 [mmartin3]

zakim, Microsoft is mmartin3

14:58:10 [Zakim]

+mmartin3; got it

14:59:14 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:59:23 [glenn]

zakim, ??p9 is glenn

14:59:23 [Zakim]

+glenn; got it

14:59:29 [Zakim]

+ +49.893.aaaa

14:59:41 [Zakim]

+ +1.425.658.aabb

14:59:46 [mike]

mike has joined #tt

14:59:50 [pal]

pal has joined #tt

15:00:03 [Sean]

zakim, aabb is me

15:00:03 [Zakim]

+Sean; got it

15:00:17 [mmartin3]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:00:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, Sean

15:00:24 [Zakim]

+ +1.858.847.aacc

15:00:48 [Zakim]

+pal

15:01:25 [mmartin3]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0009.html

15:01:50 [mike]

zakim, aacc is me

15:01:50 [Zakim]

+mike; got it

15:02:24 [mmartin3]

zakim, aaaa is Andreas

15:02:24 [Zakim]

+Andreas; got it

15:02:35 [mmartin3]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:02:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, Andreas, Sean, mike, pal

15:03:03 [mmartin3]

scribenick: mmartin3

15:04:00 [Zakim]

+Thomas_Bause_Mason

15:04:12 [mmartin3]

zakim, list attendees

15:04:12 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason

15:04:33 [mmartin3]

zzakim,aaaa is Andreas

15:04:40 [mmartin3]

akim, aaaa is Andreas

15:04:49 [mmartin3]

zakim, aaaa is Andreas

15:04:49 [Zakim]

sorry, mmartin3, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

15:04:55 [tbause]

tbause has joined #tt

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+ +1.408.771.aadd

15:05:14 [mijordan]

mijordan has joined #tt

15:05:17 [mmartin3]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:05:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, Andreas, Sean, mike, pal, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd

15:05:24 [mmartin3]

zakim, list attendees

15:05:24 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd

15:05:31 [mmartin3]

TOPIC: SDP-US Issues

15:05:35 [courtney]

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15:05:51 [mmartin3]

Issue-198?

15:05:51 [trackbot]

ISSUE-198 -- Add TTML in Title of SDP-US for Ready Recognition -- raised

15:05:51 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/198

15:05:58 [Zakim]

+Andrew_Kirkpatrick

15:06:17 [mmartin3]

mmartin3: For ease of recognition.

15:06:28 [mijordan]

Zakim, Andrew_Kirkpatrick is mijordan

15:06:28 [Zakim]

+mijordan; got it

15:06:41 [mmartin3]

mike: sounds reasonable.

15:06:44 [mmartin3]

Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

15:07:24 [mmartin3]

glenn: Where do we put it?

15:07:33 [mmartin3]

mjordan: What about after SDP?

15:07:46 [mmartin3]

glenn: Monica's suggestion is preferred.

15:07:54 [mmartin3]

Resolved to add TTML to the name of SDP-US.

15:08:22 [mmartin3]

Action: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

15:08:22 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-137 - Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].

15:08:23 [glenn]

monica's suggestion is to put TTML at beginning of title

15:08:48 [mmartin3]

sean: Redundant list of features in Appendix B.

15:09:16 [mmartin3]

glenn: Don't serve any real purpose.

15:09:22 [mmartin3]

...Features defined in Section 9.

15:09:45 [mmartin3]

...Duplicative and could become out of sync (current case).

15:09:56 [mmartin3]

mike: Informative summary could also be added.

15:10:34 [mmartin3]

Resolved: Remove two subsections in Appendix A.

15:10:37 [mmartin3]

c/A/B

15:10:37 [glenn]

remove two paragraphs after table in appendix B

15:11:02 [mmartin3]

Action: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US.

15:11:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-138 - Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].

15:11:11 [mmartin3]

sean: Fix in editor's draft.

15:11:32 [mmartin3]

glenn: Has to check URLs.

15:11:38 [mmartin3]

mike: Public?

15:11:51 [mmartin3]

http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

15:13:01 [mmartin3]

pal: Add origin and extent to SDP-US?

15:13:05 [mmartin3]

...Section 9.

15:14:01 [mmartin3]

...Do we need display-region?

15:14:24 [mmartin3]

glenn: Support styling.

15:14:49 [mmartin3]

...Do we need display for other elements in addition of region?

15:15:22 [mmartin3]

...Don't think we need on other elements like span.

15:15:35 [mmartin3]

...No change.

15:16:19 [mmartin3]

mmartin3: We have requirements in extent-region.

15:16:42 [mmartin3]

sean: Need to add extent and origin to Section 9.

15:17:17 [mmartin3]

Andreas: Do we more for layering?

15:18:08 [mmartin3]

c/layering/layout

15:18:19 [mmartin3]

s/layering/layout

15:18:52 [mmartin3]

sean: Extent and origin consumed by layout.

15:19:01 [mmartin3]

...No change needed in Section 9.

15:19:05 [mmartin3]

....Note?

15:19:51 [plh]

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+Plh

15:20:07 [mmartin3]

glenn: Problem is we need to trace all others.

15:20:46 [mmartin3]

...Glenn will review to decide if we place a note in SDP-US not in Section 9.

15:21:42 [mmartin3]

sean: Each feature description gives attributes and elements. Add another table or subsection in Section 9 that articulates those elements and attributes.

15:21:51 [mmartin3]

glenn: Duplicates material that could become wrong.

15:22:32 [mmartin3]

sean: Automate?

15:22:43 [mmartin3]

glenn: Only prose in sections.

15:22:53 [mmartin3]

Resolved: No change.

15:23:26 [mmartin3]

glenn: SDP-US editorial issue in Example 2 has wrong font size.

15:23:47 [mmartin3]

Action: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US.

15:23:47 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-139 - Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].

15:23:57 [mmartin3]

TOPIC: TTML 1.0 Second Edition

15:24:10 [mmartin3]

Issue-173?

15:24:10 [trackbot]

ISSUE-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- open

15:24:10 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173

15:24:53 [mmartin3]

glenn: No progress on SE issues. Work on now.

15:25:20 [mmartin3]

...Not sure we discussed in detail.

15:25:37 [mmartin3]

...Character without a mapped gliff.

15:25:52 [mmartin3]

....Handle directly or indirectly in XSL-FO semantics. Need to check this.

15:26:21 [mmartin3]

...Display gliff at all? Which is specified?

15:26:45 [mmartin3]

mike: Need to decide on ones that alter the flow - carriage return, tab, etc.

15:26:57 [mmartin3]

...Are they part of the behavior of the region?

15:27:06 [mmartin3]

...Ignor or substitute?

15:28:10 [mmartin3]

glenn: Handled by default semantics of XSL-FO. Describe behavior whitespace handling, new lines, etc. Default semantics of XSL-FO apply because TTML 1.0 doesn't dictate them.

15:28:27 [mmartin3]

...We could put information in TTML 1.0 SE.

15:28:42 [mmartin3]

....Umbrella issue that needs to be separate.

15:28:52 [mmartin3]

sean: Be clear of what semantics actually are.

15:29:38 [mmartin3]

...Need to know what is in TTML 1.0.

15:29:49 [mmartin3]

glenn: What are in the specification?

15:30:00 [mmartin3]

mike: Tab, Carriage Return, New Line.

15:30:17 [mmartin3]

glenn: Line separator and paragraph separator.

15:30:59 [mmartin3]

sean: Glenn and Mike will quantify where we are at.

15:32:06 [mmartin3]

mike: Section 7..1.7 is an example where we need to clarify. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml10/spec/ttaf1-dfxp.html#content-vocabulary-br

15:32:46 [mmartin3]

glenn: Reference UAX-14. May need to update and look at XSL-FO references in Second Edition.

15:33:03 [mmartin3]

mike: One or more issues?

15:33:20 [mmartin3]

glenn: Need another issue specifically related to whitespace handling and line breaking.

15:33:23 [mmartin3]

Issue-175?

15:33:23 [trackbot]

ISSUE-175 -- media type and file extension not registered -- open

15:33:23 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/175

15:33:54 [mmartin3]

mike: Produced proposed redlines.

15:34:31 [mmartin3]

...Material to Sean and Glenn, and to TTWG is sufficient. Original TTML 1.0 said that encoding should be binary. Should be UTF-8 and UTF-16.

15:34:49 [mmartin3]

glenn: Registration information says binary.

15:35:26 [mmartin3]

mike: XML specific encoding is what we are targeting.

15:36:26 [mmartin3]

Mike's post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2012Nov/0036.html

15:36:39 [mmartin3]

glenn: TTML 1.0 Second Edition doesn't talk about binary.

15:36:50 [mmartin3]

...Not in TTML 1.0 either.

15:37:29 [mmartin3]

mike: Differences between what was given to IANA, discussion and in TTML 1.0.

15:37:34 [mmartin3]

...Talk about encoding.

15:38:06 [mmartin3]

glenn: We don't have constraints for encoding. Recommended for wire encoding.

15:38:33 [mmartin3]

mike: Optional parameters - application/xml supports a large number of encodings including binary.

15:39:52 [mmartin3]

glenn: TTML 1.0 doesn't mandate a concrete encoding. Defines at the infoset with scalar values irrespective of their encoding.

15:40:09 [mmartin3]

...Appendix G.

15:40:42 [mmartin3]

...May differ with what was defined in MIME registration type.

15:41:11 [mmartin3]

...Shouldn't constrain.

15:41:35 [mmartin3]

mike: Presentation engines that use UTF-8 and -16 gives some preference.

15:42:17 [mmartin3]

...UTF-8 document with namespace with binary.

15:42:29 [mmartin3]

glenn: Where is the reference for your concern?

15:42:49 [mmartin3]

sean: We do have a constraint in SDP-US.

15:44:26 [mmartin3]

...Don't understand the issue.

15:44:45 [mmartin3]

mike: We have an issue on encoding.

15:45:29 [mmartin3]

glenn: Content conformance has some requirements to application/xml

15:45:52 [mmartin3]

Issue-197

15:45:52 [trackbot]

ISSUE-197 -- charset/encoding unconstrained -- open

15:45:52 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/197

15:46:21 [mmartin3]

...glenn: Derive encoding from there.

15:47:13 [mmartin3]

sean: Table discussion until the issue is understood.

15:47:36 [mmartin3]

...Mike put a paragraph summarizing your concerns. Sean will review.

15:49:40 [mmartin3]

mike: My concern is a document constrained to UTF-8 encoding with a namespace that uses binary. There could be processing issues. There may be other constraints in XML.

15:50:20 [mmartin3]

glenn: There is no explicit references other than a TTML document at runtime. There could be implicit references.

15:50:31 [mike]

here is some more information, including the proposed redline of Annex C: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.html

15:50:48 [mmartin3]

sean: Could use XML include.

15:51:47 [mmartin3]

...May not need a concrete MIME type. We need to comprehensively look at how you create the XML using the Infoset.

15:52:18 [mmartin3]

glenn: We probably shouldn't say anything even though we may want to.

15:53:03 [mmartin3]

...Annex G could be generalized to namespace and profile documents.

15:53:45 [mmartin3]

mike: Need to fix Annex C or remove entirely. If we keep it, we need to update with comments from IANA and others (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.html).

15:53:54 [mmartin3]

...Talk more about encoding.

15:54:40 [mmartin3]

TOPIC: Actions

15:54:53 [mmartin3]

Action-133?

15:54:53 [trackbot]

ACTION-133 -- Mike Dolan to create updated template and summary of media type record for Glenn. -- due 2012-12-13 -- CLOSED

15:54:53 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/133

15:54:55 [mmartin3]

Closed

15:55:05 [mmartin3]

Action-136?

15:55:05 [trackbot]

ACTION-136 -- Glenn Adams to integrate changes from Action-133 into the TTML 1.0 Second Edition -- due 2013-01-14 -- OPEN

15:55:05 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/136

15:55:37 [mmartin3]

glenn: Still have issue if we need other changes. Do we delete Appendix C?

15:55:44 [mmartin3]

sean: Table action given discussion.

15:55:47 [mmartin3]

Issue-199?

15:55:47 [trackbot]

ISSUE-199 -- timeExpression to video frame calculation is unclear in some cases -- raised

15:55:47 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/199

15:56:20 [mmartin3]

mike: Contacted by implementers - timeExpression with frames. How do we calculate the video frame?

15:56:37 [mmartin3]

...Cases where different time representations using clock with frames that result in the same video frame.

15:56:46 [mmartin3]

...M->1 mapping OK.

15:57:20 [mmartin3]

....Glenn proposed a different algortihm to go to 1-1 with some side effects. What is the best approach and give guidance in TTML 1.0 SE.

15:57:52 [mmartin3]

...Issue exist for non-integer frame rates with timeExpression with clock with frames.

15:58:14 [mmartin3]

glenn: Implementer may have come to different conclusions. What was our original intent?

15:58:37 [mmartin3]

...Thread wasn't on public reflector.

15:59:03 [mmartin3]

sean: Glenn and Sean prepare a discussion document for Jan 17 or 24.

15:59:46 [mmartin3]

mike: Work with issue and what is on reflector.

16:00:05 [Zakim]

-glenn

16:00:12 [mmartin3]

plh: Will be gone Jan 17.

16:00:18 [Zakim]

-Thomas_Bause_Mason

16:00:20 [Zakim]

-Plh

16:00:21 [mmartin3]

trackbot, end meeting

16:00:21 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

16:00:21 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd, mijordan,

16:00:24 [Zakim]

... Plh

16:00:24 [Zakim]

-Andreas

16:00:24 [Zakim]

-mijordan

16:00:24 [Zakim]

-mike

16:00:24 [Zakim]

-Sean

16:00:25 [Zakim]

-pal

16:00:29 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:00:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html trackbot

16:00:30 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-actions.rdf :

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ [1]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc#T15-08-22

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US. [2]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc#T15-11-02

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US. [3]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc#T15-23-47