IRC log of svg on 2012-12-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:59:55 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-irc
20:59:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM already started
21:00:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
21:00:00 [trackbot]
Date: 20 December 2012
21:00:23 [birtles]
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21:00:37 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:00:48 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
21:00:48 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
21:01:05 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:01:11 [birtles]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
21:01:11 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
21:01:56 [ed]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0063.html
21:02:11 [Zakim]
+cabanier
21:03:03 [krit]
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21:03:18 [krit]
zakim, who is on the phone?
21:03:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.415.308.aaaa, ed, birtles, cabanier
21:03:27 [krit]
zakim, aaaa is me
21:03:27 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
21:04:38 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:04:43 [heycam]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
21:04:43 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
21:05:47 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
21:05:52 [ed]
chair: heycam
21:05:55 [ed]
topic: mask-type
21:06:01 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
21:06:26 [ed]
ds: we have mask-* properties, would like to add... ... shorthand function
21:06:42 [krit]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-property
21:07:26 [ed]
cm: would apply to mask element, wheterh the mask content should be interpreted as ...
21:08:00 [cabanier]
scribenick: cabanier
21:08:33 [cabanier]
heycam: it is a bit confusing if masktype applies to the mask element
21:08:41 [cabanier]
… and the things that get masked
21:08:58 [Zakim]
+nikos
21:09:12 [Tav]
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21:09:26 [cabanier]
… what the mask is describing depending on what it's applied to
21:09:55 [cabanier]
krit: I would like to have in the short-hand
21:10:08 [Zakim]
+Tav
21:10:20 [cabanier]
… masktype should be consistent
21:10:37 [cabanier]
,,, the problem is that we have to special case the mask-type
21:10:47 [cabanier]
… this means that we can't mask a mask
21:10:53 [cabanier]
… in the future
21:11:11 [cabanier]
birtles: can't we rename mask-type to mask-source-type?
21:11:43 [cabanier]
heycam: so make the one from the shorthand mask-source-type
21:11:50 [cabanier]
… or we can rename the other one
21:12:14 [cabanier]
krit: that sounds fine with me as well. should we try to make it shorter?
21:12:33 [cabanier]
heycam: have the longer one for the one that is used in the shorthand
21:12:41 [cabanier]
everyone: that sounds good
21:13:32 [cabanier]
resolution: we'll have mask-source-type property as part of the shorthand and leave mask-type property as the one that just applies to the mask element
21:14:09 [cabanier]
topic: filter effects feedback
21:14:10 [heycam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0059.html
21:14:30 [cabanier]
heycam: we should have someone to review his comments
21:14:42 [cabanier]
krit: I didn't read it yet
21:14:51 [cabanier]
heycam: are these new features?
21:15:02 [cabanier]
krit: I think they're additions
21:15:57 [cabanier]
nikos: angle for dropshadow seems useful
21:16:22 [cabanier]
action: Dirk to review filter effects proposal
21:16:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3404 - Review filter effects proposal [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-12-27].
21:16:52 [cabanier]
topic: SVG test suite
21:17:13 [cabanier]
heycam: we need a plan so we can migrate the exisitng tests into the new test suite
21:17:27 [cabanier]
…and make sure that they're still valid and in the right format
21:17:46 [cabanier]
… for a lot of them, we can just split them out
21:18:09 [cabanier]
… and make them reftests. The problem is creating the reference
21:18:22 [cabanier]
krit: some things like masking is hard to test as a reftest
21:18:40 [cabanier]
heycam: yeah. maybe we can do simple paths with raster images
21:18:44 [thorton]
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21:19:15 [cabanier]
…or we can a couple of manually inspected test for these things
21:20:02 [cabanier]
… with reftests, there is always the problem that very basic primitives are hard to write tests for
21:20:15 [cabanier]
… maybe we should have visually inspection
21:20:46 [cabanier]
krit: yes, at some point we will have to do that
21:20:50 [cabanier]
heycam: yes
21:21:18 [cabanier]
krit: We should have a day on our F2F to talk just about testing
21:21:31 [cabanier]
… testing is very important for the specification
21:22:21 [cabanier]
heycam: for our exisitng test, would people object that they are assigned a block of test?
21:22:30 [cabanier]
…not for detailed review, but just to check
21:22:40 [cabanier]
… and then at a later date, write reftests for those
21:23:42 [cabanier]
heycam: we can get started on that while we're in Sydney
21:23:48 [cabanier]
krit: yes
21:23:58 [cabanier]
… first review and then ref tests
21:24:16 [cabanier]
heycam: I will look into what's needed to make the format right
21:24:43 [cabanier]
action: heycam to allocate chunks of the test suite for different people to review
21:24:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3405 - Allocate chunks of the test suite for different people to review [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
21:26:22 [cabanier]
heycam: I would like to know where to put test in the repository
21:26:46 [cabanier]
krit: the CSS WG just puts everyting in a folder
21:27:05 [cabanier]
… with support for testharnass.js
21:27:40 [cabanier]
… you write the test and put it in the same folder as the reftest
21:27:40 [heycam]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/scripttest
21:28:27 [cabanier]
action: heycam follow up that scripted tests can go in repository
21:28:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3406 - Follow up that scripted tests can go in repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
21:29:26 [cabanier]
krit: Peter Lins can help us write a real test suite
21:29:38 [cabanier]
heycam: yes, we need to figure out how to run shepard
21:29:51 [krit]
s/Lins/Linss/
21:37:26 [cabanier]
topic: CSS animation of SVG attributes
21:37:52 [cabanier]
krit: I restarted the thread on www-style.
21:38:02 [cabanier]
…authors would like to use this.
21:38:13 [cabanier]
… I will bring it up on the FX tast force
21:38:29 [cabanier]
heycam: I'm not surprised that there was no response
21:39:02 [cabanier]
… I think it's a difficult topic. It's a major thing
21:39:06 [cabanier]
krit: that might be
21:39:35 [cabanier]
… I would like to start with just a couple of properties just as x and y
21:39:41 [cabanier]
… to make it easier
21:39:45 [shepazu]
q+
21:39:50 [cabanier]
heycam: patrick had a list
21:39:58 [cabanier]
krit: I saw that
21:40:20 [cabanier]
… we still need to figure out with attributes that are used twice
21:40:27 [cabanier]
… and we might need new names
21:40:43 [cabanier]
… We should start by agreeing with new names
21:40:44 [TabAtkins]
That info was laid out in one fo the old threads.
21:40:57 [cabanier]
shepazu: I don't agree that we need new name
21:41:15 [heycam]
TabAtkins, this has all been discussed before, you are right.
21:41:24 [cabanier]
krit: right now some attributes depend on the element such as x, y on text or a rectangle
21:41:54 [cabanier]
shepazu: I prefer that each element can have its own behavior
21:42:06 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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21:42:26 [cabanier]
… I'm unsure where the group is on different names such as rectX, etc
21:42:48 [cabanier]
… does anyone think that width height in SVG than it is in CSS
21:42:54 [cabanier]
heycam: I don't think so
21:43:14 [cabanier]
… It depends on the pattern of renaming that we will use
21:43:30 [cabanier]
… if we use longer descriptor names, it might make sense. Otherwise no
21:44:06 [cabanier]
shepazu: does it make sense to not add cx, cy to a circle and stick to x and y?
21:44:16 [cabanier]
krit: the CSS WG doesn't even want x and y
21:44:49 [TabAtkins]
We don't want x and y because those are on the "used in two different ways with different grammars" list. ^_^
21:45:34 [cabanier]
krit: (reading Tab's irc)
21:45:50 [heycam]
It could be just as easy as saying "rect { x: 10px 20px }" is treated just like 10px
21:45:55 [heycam]
if we wanted to use the same syntax
21:46:07 [heycam]
not sure how much of a problem it really is
21:46:17 [cabanier]
shepazu: maybe we can say that x/y is treated differently
21:46:48 [cabanier]
heycam: we can talk about boxes in SVG
21:46:58 [cabanier]
krit: that is a totally differnt topic
21:47:42 [cabanier]
krit: I would like to see circles directly in HTML and <p> directly in SVG
21:47:54 [cabanier]
.. at that point we need to decribe the boxing model
21:48:39 [cabanier]
… but it's still not working. we need 2 different properties
21:49:01 [TabAtkins]
(I'm fine with x/y as just being properties used by the SVG layout model, and <text> exposing some differently-named property for its x/y stuff.
21:49:38 [krit]
would work as well, again, just an edge case that we need to resolve on later
21:50:13 [cabanier]
shepazu: the HTML WG is becoming more modularized
21:50:25 [cabanier]
… we could write a new module that descibes SVG in HTML
21:50:39 [cabanier]
… and have bare SVG elements
21:50:52 [cabanier]
krit: it doesn't have to be a new module
21:51:01 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes. but how would we do this?
21:51:44 [shepazu]
agenda+ confs
21:52:27 [cabanier]
topic: SVG font in SVG 2
21:52:53 [cabanier]
krit: we are not working on SVG fonts
21:52:57 [shepazu]
agenda+ SVG at ISO
21:53:12 [cabanier]
… and a lot of things are not implemented and FF and IE are not going either
21:53:19 [cabanier]
… so I would like to remove from SVG2
21:53:35 [cabanier]
heycam: we agreed to have a separate module
21:54:11 [cabanier]
… I do agree with your point to have a separate module. However, I don't know how good use of a time it is
21:54:26 [cabanier]
krit: it's already in its own module, so we can split it off
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21:54:45 [cabanier]
heycam: yes, but it's in the SVG 1.1 spec, so they can still implement it
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21:56:23 [cabanier]
ed: I think we have actions. Chris has an action to create a new font module
21:56:33 [cabanier]
… I have an action to move the tiny font
21:56:53 [cabanier]
heycam: you will move the chapter of the tiny spec into the main spec?
21:57:00 [Zakim]
-Tav
21:57:01 [cabanier]
… do you still agree that we should do that
21:57:17 [cabanier]
ed: whatever's easiest. It's not required
21:57:27 [cabanier]
heycam: it's very unlikely that we will implement that
21:57:37 [cabanier]
… I don't know if that matters.
21:57:50 [cabanier]
shepazu: I think it does.
21:58:17 [cabanier]
… getting consensus on if a feature is part of the language is important.
21:58:28 [ed]
s/It's not required/as long as it's a required part/
21:58:28 [cabanier]
… otherwise authors will have a bad time
21:58:33 [Zakim]
+Tav
21:58:57 [cabanier]
… even if it's a module, we should say if it's required or not
21:59:38 [cabanier]
krit: I'd say the fonts module is not part of the core
22:00:11 [cabanier]
Tav:I think the SVG fonts are serving a different purpose. For instance decorative purposes
22:00:18 [cabanier]
shepazu: I agree with you
22:00:48 [cabanier]
… how, today the inkscape output does not render in FF, IE or webkit
22:00:56 [cabanier]
… this harms every authoring tool
22:01:16 [cabanier]
Tav: inkscape doesn't support svg fonts today :-0)
22:01:34 [cabanier]
shepazu: so this proves my point
22:02:08 [cabanier]
…you and Eric say that they want to keep SVG fonts, but they've never been properly supported
22:02:18 [Zakim]
-birtles
22:02:56 [cabanier]
krit: yes, WebKit only had a small part of fonts implemented
22:03:16 [cabanier]
shepazu: also, there will be SVG fonts inside of OpenType
22:03:25 [cabanier]
… that is one way
22:04:05 [cabanier]
… for instance, groovy text is very hard to use with SVG fonts today
22:04:26 [cabanier]
… we should look at what features we want from SVG text
22:04:41 [ed]
clarification: I do want to keep SVG *Tiny* fonts, the SVG 1.1 full fonts are just underspecified - and would need much more detail (the same applies to svg-in-opentype as well)
22:04:58 [heycam]
+1 to what doug just said about associating text with graphics
22:05:25 [cabanier]
tav: this solution, would you be able to select the text?
22:06:29 [cabanier]
krit: SVG in opentype can do a lot more than SVG fonts
22:06:34 [cabanier]
… animation for instance
22:06:45 [cabanier]
shepazu: that's not quite true
22:07:30 [cabanier]
… however, we're talking about adding features. We're not talking about dropping features
22:07:36 [krit]
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22:07:41 [cabanier]
heycam: I think with Doug
22:08:01 [cabanier]
… marking graphics with a title/description
22:08:08 [cabanier]
… would be a good idea
22:08:31 [cabanier]
… It would be a good idea that you could select the box and copy the text
22:09:03 [cabanier]
shepazu: I think that sounds great and especially if it can be implemented easily
22:10:08 [cabanier]
heycam: I agree that what's in the spec is what we want people to implement
22:10:19 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes, that is the goal of SVG2
22:11:11 [cabanier]
Tav: it would be good if there's an alternate way to get access to the content (inside the glyph)
22:11:45 [Zakim]
-krit
22:11:45 [cabanier]
heycam: I recently heard that some people had troubles with outlined text
22:12:12 [Zakim]
+krit
22:12:14 [heycam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0070.html
22:12:44 [cabanier]
shepazu: regardless of our decision on font, I would like to push forward with groovy text
22:13:08 [cabanier]
… it would be nice that you can aggregate strings
22:13:41 [cabanier]
heycam: yes, that's why I want to define the selection area
22:14:00 [cabanier]
shepazu: maybe having them as seperate elements will do that
22:14:16 [cabanier]
heycam: yes. I would like to think about a feature like this
22:14:37 [ed]
that looks similar to altGlyph
22:14:52 [ed]
(which isn't part of svgfonts)
22:15:01 [heycam]
good point ed
22:15:07 [heycam]
we should look at what altGlyph affords us now
22:16:10 [Zakim]
+Rich
22:18:06 [cabanier]
shepazu: krit, why do you want SVG fonts to drop?
22:18:23 [cabanier]
heycam: because we think SVG fonts are not the right direction
22:18:43 [cabanier]
krit: ???
22:19:01 [cabanier]
krit: we won't drop exisitng support because of legacy reasons
22:19:25 [cabanier]
shepazu: is your point that ie and ff not implementing, is doing more harm than good?
22:19:30 [cabanier]
krit: yes
22:20:44 [cabanier]
heycam: we can discuss this more during the F2F
22:21:03 [cabanier]
heycam: does anyone have remarks on the groovy text proposal?
22:21:24 [cabanier]
heycam: I will come up with a more concrete proposal
22:21:38 [cabanier]
krit: yes, how you use it, where, etc
22:22:57 [cabanier]
action: heycam make a concrete proposal for associating text with graphics
22:22:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3407 - Make a concrete proposal for associating text with graphics [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
22:23:49 [heycam]
q?
22:23:50 [shepazu]
agenda?
22:27:16 [cabanier]
topic: confs
22:27:48 [cabanier]
shepazu: Josh Davis will talk at w3conf
22:27:49 [shepazu]
http://openvisconf.com
22:28:28 [cabanier]
… ??? asked me to submit a paper on accessibility of data visualisation
22:28:42 [cabanier]
… if anyone is interested in making some examples
22:28:51 [cabanier]
… I would love that
22:29:11 [cabanier]
… this conference is in May
22:29:23 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: I have some material that you can reuse
22:29:36 [cabanier]
shepazu: and talk about connector and ARIA
22:30:01 [cabanier]
… if anyone knows anything other conference where we can promote SVG
22:30:08 [cabanier]
topic SVG at ISO
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22:30:19 [cabanier]
topic: SVG at ISO
22:30:36 [cabanier]
shepazu: W3C can have its specs rubber stamped
22:30:43 [cabanier]
… we want to get an SVG ISO spec
22:31:02 [cabanier]
… are we planning on making a SVG 1.1 version 3?
22:31:05 [cabanier]
heycam: no
22:31:27 [cabanier]
shepazu: SVG 2.0 is not ready in 2013
22:31:55 [cabanier]
… if a spec is an iso spec, it can be used by more people (ie governments)
22:32:17 [cabanier]
… it comes down to, having more people using your technology
22:33:12 [cabanier]
cabanier: don't we lose rights to our own documents if we submit to ISO?
22:33:42 [cabanier]
shepazu: no. The W3C worked out a special deal. ISO can't change or owns the spec
22:34:17 [cabanier]
… people can buy the specs from ISO but there is a link on the ISO URL where you can download the spec from the W3C
22:35:48 [cabanier]
shepazu: so, if we give them something this year, it should be SVG 1.1 second edition
22:36:09 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: what state do we expect SVG2.0 to be by the end of 2013?
22:36:16 [cabanier]
heycam: CR hopefully
22:36:39 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: this would mean that epub would pick it up for 3.1
22:36:59 [cabanier]
heycam: that could be good since epub is picking up all the CSS features
22:42:13 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
22:42:15 [Zakim]
-heycam
22:42:16 [Zakim]
-ed
22:42:18 [Zakim]
-Tav
22:42:19 [Zakim]
-nikos
22:42:19 [Zakim]
-cabanier
22:42:21 [Zakim]
-Rich
22:42:21 [Zakim]
-krit
22:42:21 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.415.308.aaaa, ed, birtles, cabanier, krit, heycam, Doug_Schepers, nikos, Tav, Rich
22:43:03 [cabanier]
RRSAgent, make minutes
22:43:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html cabanier
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