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<trackbot> Date: 26 October 2012
The main issue was with the term 'non-embedded content'.
'Non-web' content is very broad as a replacement for the 'non-embedded non-Web content'.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yfi41a03eubpdn2/Key%20Terms%20for%20Intro.doc
Maybe we could use 'non-web content file', but sometimes the content is in several files such as a movie.
We could replace 'content' specifically with 'non-web content file' when we specifically want to exclude software.
Discussion on the spreadsheet file Gregg sent out: Removing non-embedded-1.xlsx
Also looking at Gregg's simple substitution table and the substitutions.doc that Mike sent out via email.
If we say 'non-embedded content and software' in our interpretations, it makes it easier to harmonize with the M376 split of Software and the non-embedded content.
The WCAG working group didn't like the term 'non-embedded' which is not easy for some readers to understand (too technical).
The only SCs that our advice differed between software and non-embedded content are: 1.4.4, 2.4.4, 3.1.1, and 4.1.1.
<korn> Idea: State in the intro that content can be in a separate file that uses a separate user agent (similar to WCAG content), or be embedded within software. We retain the term "content" for that which needs a separate user agent, and use the term "software" where we mean content in software.
The term 'embedded' wasn't very well received in M376 because it has other technical meanings.
<Andi> M376 list of SC that have different applicability notes for non-embedded content and software: 1.3.1, 1.4.4, 2.1.1, 2.1.2, 2.4.4, 2.4.6, 3.1.1
There are additional places where the advice in the M376 draft where the advice is different 1.3.1, 1.4.4, 2.1.1, 2.1.2, 2.4.4, 2.4.6, 3.1.1. Their list doesn't include 4.1.1.
The WCAG2ICT also differs on those additional SCs, but the differences mainly show up in the notes.
<korn> Idea: State in the intro that content can be in a separate file or files that uses a separate user agent (similar to WCAG content), or be embedded within software. We retain the term "content" for that which needs a separate user agent, and use the term "software" where we mean content in software.
<Mike_P> Maybe "as a part of" instead of "embedded"?
<greggvanderheiden> State in the intro that non-web content can be in a separate file or files that uses a separate user agent (similar to WCAG content), or be embedded within software. We retain the term "content" for non-web content which needs a separate user agent, and use the term "software" where we mean content in software.
<korn> State in the intro that non-web content can be in a separate file or files that uses a separate user agent (similar to WCAG content), or be embedded within software. We retain the term "content" for that which needs a separate user agent, and use the term "software" or "content in software" where we mean content in software.
Because the word 'content' is used in many places in the SC, we can't get by with just using 'content and software' and need a modifier for the word 'content' in that phrase.
When you have 3 items of content, they would be content files. If the content is a movie, those are content files.
Suggestion to use 'packaged content'.
Need to capture what the 'Web page' entity is that stands apart from 'content'.
Proposal was to use 'packaged content' instead of 'Web page'.
We may need to use something other than the word content in 'packaged content'.
We could use 'content package' because then it would read 'content in a content package'.
<Mike_P> +1 for "content IN software"
<Andi> "content package" for "web page"
Replace 'Web page' with 'content package'. Reinforce the meaning of 'content'.
<Andi> follow WCAG definition of content - played by a user agent
<Andi> content in software - either software, content in software, content embedded in software
<korn> Web page becomes at least, always, "content package", which needs a user agent to be "played" (software doesn't contain/include a "content package". Further, in many (most?) SCs, "web page" becomes "content package and software".
'Web page' becomes 'content package and software' when we have the interpretations that apply also to software.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Content in a Content Package (hereafter called Content Package)]– content that is in a package (somewhat analogous to a Web Page) that must be presented to the user via some other software or user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Content in Software (hereafter called Software) – content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user.
<greggvanderheiden> a. All software has some content in it. But because embedded content is integral with its presenting software (i.e. the software is both content and user agent) – some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
<greggvanderheiden> ===========
<greggvanderheiden> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. When used in this document we are referring to content that is not on the web. We divide this into two categories.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Content in a Content Package (hereafter called Content Package)]– content that is in a package (somewhat analogous to a Web Page) that must be presented to the user via some other software or user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Content in Software (hereafter called Software) – content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user.
<greggvanderheiden> a. All software has some content in it. But because embedded content is integral with its presenting software (i.e. the software is both content and user agent) – some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
This would become part of the key terms section of the introduction. Then the interpretive words would be added into the appropriate SCs. In a few places the terms would be broken apart where we separated out the non-embedded content from the software.
It looks like these terms will be usable by the M376 group. The definitions may not be copied verbatim, but do seem reasonable.
<korn> WCAG defines content as "information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user by means of a user agent, including code or markup that defines the content's structure, presentation, and interactions". This definition of content is constrained to that which is communicated by a user agent. However, 'information or sensory experience' may also be embedded in software (which may or may not be a user agent).
Section 508 will not be using the term 'non-embedded content', as it is not plain language.
Documents and files will probably be used instead, as they are plain language terms.
<Andi> +1 to "content file" - was going to suggest that myself
<korn> When we say "content file", we also include things like movies that may actually comprise multiple files.
<korn> ... and we include streamed files media
Could we say 'content file' and define 'content file'.
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to comment on terms of art
<greggvanderheiden> Content (on and off the web)
<greggvanderheiden> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. When used in this document we are referring to content that is not on the web. We divide this into two categories.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Content that must be viewed via a user agent (hereafter called Content File)–
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file (somewhat analogous to a Web Page) that must be presented to the user via some other software or user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Content that is embedded in Software which also acts a the user agent for the content (hereafter called Software)
<greggvanderheiden> a. – content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user.
<greggvanderheiden> b. All software has some content in it. But because embedded content is integral with its presenting software (i.e. the software is both content and user agent) – some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
<korn> Gregg: we can't use "content that must be viewed..." as "content file". It is something that is IN a content file.
<greggvanderheiden> ============================
<greggvanderheiden> Content (on and off the web)
<greggvanderheiden> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. When used in this document we are referring to content that is not on the web. We divide this into two categories.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Content File–
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file (somewhat analogous to a Web Page) that must be presented to the user via some other software or user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Software
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user (i.e. the software is both content and user agent).
<greggvanderheiden> b. All software has some content in it. But because embedded content is integral with its presenting software
<greggvanderheiden> c. some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
<korn> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. [The <href>WCAG definition</href> contrains content to things communicated by means of a user agent] When used in this document...
It is hard to capture a good term that pulls in all of the examples such as documents, movies, audio files, etc. into a common word.
'Content file' seems to be a good enough term that could be used by Section 508 as well.
<Mike_P> In the definition we could make clear that "content file" includes multiple files.
<BBailey> +1 to say document include media files
Why couldn't 'document' be used to capture all of the types of files since when you look in the 'My Documents' folder in windows it includes all of those other types of files.
<korn> "document" to also be defined to include streamed media
We could use 'content file' in the definition of 'document' so include all of the various video, audio, etc. files in the definition.
<korn> <definition of document> - this is a very expansive term. It is ANYTHING that needs a user agent to have it's content communicated to the user. It includes all content files, streamed media, etc. etc.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Document
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, or set of files, that must be presented to the user via some other software or user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer.
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Documents, movies, and are examples of content files
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, reports, spreadsheets, emails, Word docs, movies, and are examples of content files
<korn> 1. Document
<korn> a. content that is in a file, or set of files, [or streamed] that [can only be conveyed] to the user via some other software or user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer.
<korn> b. Notes:
<korn> i. Documents, movies, and are examples of content files
<korn> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, or set of files, or streamed that requires a user agent such as a browser, or player, or viewer to be communicated to the user
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, spreadsheets, emails, movies, and are examples of content files
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<korn> a. content - that is in a file, or set of files, [or streamed] - that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate it to the user
<korn> i. Letters, spreadsheets, presentations, emails, movies, and pictures are all examples of documents
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, or set of files, or streamed that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate it to the user
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures and movies are examples of documents
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<Mike_P> Minor rewrite of Peter's basic definition: content, that is in a file, set of files, or streamed, that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate it to the user
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, set of files, or streamed, that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate it to the user
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and movies are examples of documents
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<greggvanderheiden> Content (on and off the web)
<greggvanderheiden> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. When used in this document we are referring to content that is not on the web. We divide this into two categories.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Document
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, set of files, or streamed, that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate it to the user
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and movies are examples of documents
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Software
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user (i.e. the software is both content and user agent).
<greggvanderheiden> b. All software has some content in it. But because embedded content is integral with its presenting software
<greggvanderheiden> c. some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
<greggvanderheiden> ====================
<greggvanderheiden> Content (on and off the web)
<greggvanderheiden> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. When used in this document we are referring to content that is not on the web. We divide this into two categories.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Document
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, set of files, or streamed, that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate it to the user
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and movies are examples of documents
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Software
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user (i.e. the software is both content and user agent).
<greggvanderheiden> b. All software has some content in it. But because embedded content is integral with its presenting software
<greggvanderheiden> c. some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
<Andi> content occurs (or exists) in two categories
<korn> Non-web contents occurs in two places:
<korn> in Documents and in Software.
<korn> <then def. of Document>
<korn> <then def. of software>
<Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to ask if "it" can be replaced
<greggvanderheiden> Content (on and off the web)
<greggvanderheiden> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. When used in this document we are referring to content that is not on the web. Non-web content occurs in two places.
<greggvanderheiden> 1. Document(s)
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is in a file, set of files, or streamed, that requires a user agent or some other software to communicate the content to the user
<greggvanderheiden> b. Notes:
<greggvanderheiden> i. Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and movies are examples of documents
<greggvanderheiden> ii. This is analogous to a web page where the page may be a single file from one URI or it may be a “page” file along with multiple other files (images, scripts, etc) from other URIs.
<greggvanderheiden> 2. Software
<greggvanderheiden> a. content that is an integral part of the software that presents it to a user (i.e. the software is both content and user agent).
<greggvanderheiden> b. All software with a user interface has some content in it.
<greggvanderheiden> c. Because embedded content is integral with its presenting software some of the success criteria would apply slightly differently than they would for content that is viewed through a separate user agent (e.g. browser, player, viewer, etc.)
<korn> Gregg: I think we should reference the user agent requirement in your first paragraph above.
<greggvanderheiden> explain?
<greggvanderheiden> User Agent (derived from WCAG 2.0 by removing the word “web”)
<greggvanderheiden> any software that retrieves and presents content for users
<greggvanderheiden> NOTE 1: Software that only displays content that is embedded inside of itself (i.e. inside the software) is not considered a user agent. It is just considered software.
<greggvanderheiden> Note 2: A calculator application that doesn’t retrieve the calculations from outside the software, presents content to a user but is not a user agent, it is simply software with a user interface.
<korn> When the word “Content” is used in WCAG the term refers to “web content”. [such content requires a user agent in order for it to be communicated to the user]. When used in this document...
<korn> We can define "content in software"
Discussion on whether or not there is any need to define the term software. We don't want to make a definition, but can say these are examples.
We need to try to address the remaining comments.
There is also conformance and the remaining few SC to consense on.
We need to try to get a stable draft by the beginning of the week after this.
We still have meetings on Tues. and Friday next week at the normal U.S. time.
<scribe> scribe: MaryJo
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/in many places/in many places in the SC/ Succeeded: s/me Hi back :)// Succeeded: s/Bruce: :-)// Succeeded: s/main issue was with the term 'embedded content'/main issue was with the term 'non-embedded content'/ Succeeded: s/The only SCs that our advice differed are in/The only SCs that our advice differed between software and non-embedded content are:/ Found Scribe: MaryJo Inferring ScribeNick: MaryJo Default Present: Andi_Snow_Weaver, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Mike_Pluke, Loic_Martinez_Normand, MaryJo, Peter_Korn, Kiran_Kaja, Judy, Bruce_Bailey, Shadi Present: Andi_Snow_Weaver Gregg_Vanderheiden Mike_Pluke Loic_Martinez_Normand MaryJo Peter_Korn Kiran_Kaja Judy Bruce_Bailey Shadi Regrets: David_MacDonald Found Date: 26 Oct 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/26-wcag2ict-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]