IRC log of html-a11y on 2012-10-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:25 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-html-a11y-irc
14:54:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:27 [Zakim]
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14:54:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago
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Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:30 [trackbot]
Date: 18 October 2012
14:54:43 [MichaelC]
regrets: Léonie_Watson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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14:55:24 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0108.html
14:57:01 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
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+John_Foliot
15:00:56 [Zakim]
+hober
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+??P20
15:02:06 [janina]
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trackbot, start meeting
15:02:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
15:02:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:31 [trackbot]
Date: 18 October 2012
15:02:33 [JF]
zakim. ??p20 is Janina
15:02:52 [JF]
zakim, ??p20 is Janina
15:02:52 [Zakim]
I already had ??P20 as ??P20, JF
15:03:11 [JF]
zakim, who's here?
15:03:11 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has restarted
15:03:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, hober, ??P20
15:03:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see janina, JF, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, MikeSmith, hober, trackbot
15:03:14 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, hober, ??P20
15:03:28 [janina]
zakim, ??P20 is Janina
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
15:04:07 [Zakim]
+Judy
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+??P14
15:04:42 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
15:04:42 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:04:42 [janina]
agenda+ Sec. 7.1 Hidden http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-html5-20121011/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute
15:04:42 [Judy]
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15:04:45 [janina]
agenda+ Poster Alt Redux http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0062.html
15:04:48 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text
15:04:51 [janina]
agenda+ The Task Force at the TPAC
15:04:53 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
15:04:56 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:04:58 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:05:01 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:05:03 [Zakim]
+Cooper
15:06:42 [hober]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, hober, Janina, Judy, Michael_Cooper, Cooper
15:06:43 [janina]
regrets: rich
15:06:46 [janina]
regrets: leonie
15:07:14 [janina]
agenda?
15:10:52 [Judy]
scribe: Judy
15:10:55 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
15:10:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Sec. 7.1 Hidden http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-html5-20121011/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute" taken up [from janina]
15:11:10 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
15:11:27 [Judy]
JS: Where should we track the latest version of the lang?
15:11:37 [Judy]
TOC: Latest editor's draft.
15:12:31 [Judy]
CS: I started a thread last week, set of events and methods that shouldn't work, couple of comments, happy to discuss live.
15:12:55 [Judy]
JS: JF and TOC here, RS is not. Possibly discuss.
15:13:39 [Judy]
JF: Thx Cynthia. Looks good. Where is that effort going? Note it in the text, that those events should be disabled? Need to draw attention to that in the spec.
15:14:00 [Judy]
...Last saw it Tues this week; Ted will you be rolling it into the Ed's draft?
15:14:15 [Judy]
Ted: Think I saw qu's from Maciej that would be worth addressing first.
15:14:38 [Judy]
JF: Posed a qu to Maciej, don't know if was responded to.
15:14:50 [Judy]
CS: You could get element by ID and click on it and that should fail.
15:15:06 [Zakim]
-Cooper
15:15:19 [Judy]
...but so should that be called a method. Focus, blur, shouldn't those just fail? Make sense?
15:15:26 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
15:15:50 [MichaelC]
jf: can´t have anything requiring focus in hidden content
15:16:04 [MichaelC]
think language was that scripted form controls would still be active
15:16:25 [MichaelC]
it should be explicit that such things would be disabled
15:16:36 [MichaelC]
so you don´t get focus in there somehow
15:16:58 [MichaelC]
cs: yes, also for @@
15:17:17 [MichaelC]
sounds like a similar problem we had with shadow DOM in canvas
15:17:44 [MichaelC]
jf: that´s like an image map with something you don´t see behind the image
15:18:17 [MichaelC]
in canvas, things in sub-DOM get displayed in the visible portion
15:18:44 [MichaelC]
cs: maybe we could think of longer descriptions as being more like the imagemap situation
15:19:09 [MichaelC]
jf: the proposal to add aria-describedat would add this magic property
15:19:21 [MichaelC]
aria-describedby should not have that ability
15:19:50 [MichaelC]
I don´t oppose the former, I oppose retrofitting aria-describedby
15:20:07 [JF]
+! to that
15:20:10 [MichaelC]
cs: I always thought of describedby as like opening a new window
15:20:17 [JF]
s/+!/+1/
15:20:29 [MichaelC]
expected attempts to focus would fail
15:20:54 [janina]
q?
15:21:03 [MichaelC]
I´m ok with @@ but some have other views
15:21:14 [MichaelC]
jf: I just don´t want anything not visible to be focusable
15:21:52 [MichaelC]
haven´t heard of a situation where we´d want that
15:22:11 [MichaelC]
cs: could imagine a canvas-like situation with a subtree you should be able to work around
15:22:18 [MichaelC]
but not sure if that use case would come about
15:22:42 [MichaelC]
js: note WebApps just published Shadow DOM spec
15:23:04 [MichaelC]
cs: maybe that´s where we tackle this issue
15:23:35 [MichaelC]
js: PFWG already expects to have comments
15:23:43 [MichaelC]
and thinks this group should review
15:23:59 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-shadow-dom-20121016/ Shadow DOM
15:24:12 [MichaelC]
cs: @@
15:24:36 [MichaelC]
jf: so now in bug activity, discussion of CSS
15:24:43 [MichaelC]
currently default CSS is display:none
15:24:53 [MichaelC]
screen readers respect that, and don´t do anything
15:25:19 [MichaelC]
now we´re saying there are situations where that native CSS handling would be changed
15:25:27 [MichaelC]
cs: not sure that´s true for all UAs
15:25:32 [janina]
q?
15:26:12 [MichaelC]
jf: have seen a lot of dumb implementations in sites, leading to things that don´t work in practice
15:26:42 [MichaelC]
to me, if @hidden = display:none and you want AT to access, you have to change that default CSS
15:27:02 [MichaelC]
cs: if you want more than something flattened into AAPI string, yes
15:27:12 [MichaelC]
if we disallow method, allows structured text but not interactivity
15:27:33 [MichaelC]
jf: but then you have something that´s not display:none
15:27:42 [MichaelC]
cs: could have display:none stuff in a11y tree also
15:27:56 [MichaelC]
jf: my concern is these cases aren´t specified
15:28:05 [MichaelC]
leading to unanswered questions in the spec
15:28:14 [MichaelC]
and you get a variety of incompatible implementations, or no ues
15:28:41 [MichaelC]
cs: we previously punted to ¨until user agents¨ situation
15:28:57 [MichaelC]
for now, maybe disallow
15:29:03 [MichaelC]
and revisit later when we have v.next
15:29:12 [MichaelC]
when we have AAPI support
15:29:46 [MichaelC]
jf: great virtual beer session, but we need to resolve where this is going
15:30:05 [MichaelC]
js: at some point we´ll have to have two implementations
15:30:11 [MichaelC]
cs: won´t get that any time soon
15:30:23 [MichaelC]
Windows will have to be next version of OS, a ways off
15:30:41 [MichaelC]
this is a pretty big feature
15:31:24 [MichaelC]
not sure what other platforms will do
15:31:40 [MichaelC]
js: @@
15:31:58 [MichaelC]
cs: I will submit bug and reply to Maciej´s mail
15:32:07 [MichaelC]
the CR argument does mean v.next
15:32:25 [MichaelC]
js: let´s look across the board, maybe we´ll all prefer
15:32:30 [MichaelC]
cs: but not for 5.0 timeframe
15:32:54 [MichaelC]
js: so let´s consider actively for 5.1 if we want it so much
15:33:10 [MichaelC]
we´re not trying to throw up obstreperious roadblocks, we have real concerns
15:33:31 [MichaelC]
jf: understand there are real use cases
15:33:39 [MichaelC]
just don´t to leave things undefined
15:34:12 [MichaelC]
cs: so with this but we are making non-support in HTML 5 an explicit decision
15:34:22 [MichaelC]
makes it an area of research for people working on v.next
15:34:33 [MichaelC]
s/but/bug/
15:35:02 [MichaelC]
changes like this depend on both OS and AT changes, long time to get both to happen
15:35:06 [MichaelC]
js: @@
15:35:21 [MichaelC]
cs: even DOM-based AT that don´t depend on AAPI have long dev cycle
15:35:32 [MichaelC]
jb: clarification
15:35:44 [MichaelC]
cs: we wouldn´t be able to exit CR with this feature by 2014
15:35:54 [MichaelC]
so instead of putting in an at risk feature, should move it to v.next
15:36:00 [MichaelC]
jb: this is about describedat?
15:36:08 [MichaelC]
cs: about interactive content in hidden sub-dom
15:37:06 [MichaelC]
toc: the open bug about @@ will drive @@
15:37:35 [MichaelC]
don´t expect implementation of @hidden = display:none to change
15:37:39 [MichaelC]
4 browsers shipped with that
15:37:57 [MichaelC]
so we need to figure out what that means and document it
15:38:26 [MichaelC]
need to figure out distinction between exposing to viewport and exposing to an API
15:38:46 [MichaelC]
the more detail and bugs we get, the easier it is to move forward
15:39:06 [MichaelC]
js: so we have next steps, can bring to agenda as needed
15:39:09 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:39:09 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Poster Alt Redux http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0062.html" taken up [from janina]
15:39:50 [MichaelC]
jf: my questions no longer concerns, have withdrawn formal objection
15:39:53 [MichaelC]
zakim, close this item
15:39:53 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
15:39:54 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:54 [Zakim]
3. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text [from janina]
15:39:55 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:39:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text" taken up [from janina]
15:40:40 [MichaelC]
cs: AAPI taking out pure MSAA column and working through implications of that
15:41:08 [MichaelC]
after next week´s meeting, will have better idea of draft timeline
15:41:14 [MichaelC]
js: need memorial service for MSAA
15:41:19 [MichaelC]
cs: was groundbreaking at the time
15:41:24 [MichaelC]
jf: +1
15:41:54 [MichaelC]
jb: Text hasn´t met recently
15:42:00 [MichaelC]
no pressing issues
15:42:30 [MichaelC]
could be useful to meet with editors about parts 1 & 2 on David MacDonald´s review of the alternative text
15:42:45 [MichaelC]
perhaps just he and I could request meeting with editors
15:43:45 [MichaelC]
that should come from TF facilitator
15:44:52 [Judy]
s/could be useful/would be useful/
15:45:12 [Judy]
s/just he and I/just you and I/
15:45:15 [MichaelC]
mc: Bug traige hasn´t met in weeks
15:45:21 [MichaelC]
Hans reviewed bugs some weeks ago
15:45:25 [MichaelC]
found one to forward to TF
15:45:36 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:45:36 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "The Task Force at the TPAC" taken up [from janina]
15:45:46 [Judy]
s/with editors/with editors per HTML Co-Chairs' suggestion/
15:45:56 [MichaelC]
js: no formal meeting at TPAC
15:45:56 [MichaelC]
but a lot of us will be there
15:46:00 [MichaelC]
and many won´t
15:46:13 [MichaelC]
could raise specific issues within HTML WG meeting
15:46:31 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:46:31 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, MichaelC
15:46:36 [MichaelC]
zakim, close this item
15:46:36 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:46:37 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:46:37 [Zakim]
5. Other Business [from janina]
15:46:37 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:46:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:47:00 [MichaelC]
js: now that Plan2014 adopted, we could start work on extension specs
15:47:09 [MichaelC]
jb: please read the co-chairs´ announcement
15:47:25 [MichaelC]
suggest the TF look at extension specs it might want to formally take up
15:47:50 [MichaelC]
there are some suggestions floating around, but not yet officially delegated
15:48:23 [MichaelC]
cs: would like making HTML to AAPI mapping doc an extension spec
15:48:44 [MichaelC]
the ARIA version is normative, think this should be too
15:48:53 [MichaelC]
js: timeframe of 5.0?
15:48:57 [MichaelC]
cs: not sure
15:49:18 [MichaelC]
js: we should review this proposal
15:49:48 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
15:49:51 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:49:52 [Zakim]
-hober
15:49:52 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
15:49:54 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:49:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
15:49:54 [Zakim]
-Judy
15:49:55 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
15:49:56 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
15:49:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Foliot, hober, Janina, Judy, Michael_Cooper, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly
15:50:03 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
15:56:23 [janina]
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15:56:53 [janina]
janina has changed the topic to: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference; Thursday 25 October at 15:00Z for 60 minutes
15:57:04 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
15:57:42 [MichaelC]
s/zakim. ??p20 is Janina//
15:57:52 [MichaelC]
scribeOptions: -final
15:57:52 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
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