IRC log of svg on 2012-08-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:57:26 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc

20:57:28 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

20:57:31 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

20:57:31 [trackbot]

Date: 23 August 2012

20:57:38 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

20:58:20 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has now started

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+Doug_Schepers

20:58:32 [Kelvin]

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21:00:09 [Zakim]

+??P1

21:00:11 [heycam]

Zakim, ??P1 is me

21:00:11 [Zakim]

+heycam; got it

21:00:39 [Zakim]

+Kelvin

21:01:05 [Zakim]

+Rich

21:01:20 [richardschwerdtfe]

richardschwerdtfe has joined #svg

21:01:49 [Zakim]

+??P8

21:01:57 [Zakim]

+??P7

21:02:09 [cabanier]

zakim, ??P8 is me

21:02:09 [Zakim]

+cabanier; got it

21:02:37 [nikos]

nikos has joined #svg

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-??P7

21:03:28 [richardschwerdtfe]

agenda?

21:04:24 [richardschwerdtfe]

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21:04:34 [richardschwerdtfe]

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21:05:03 [heycam]

Zakim, who is on the call?

21:05:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier

21:05:39 [Zakim]

+Tav

21:06:36 [Zakim]

+??P5

21:06:45 [ed]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

21:06:45 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

21:06:57 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

21:08:40 [cabanier]

scribenick: cabanier

21:08:55 [cabanier]

topic: SVG2 status

21:09:27 [cabanier]

heycam: we were planning on publishing last tuesday but there were some issue

21:10:08 [cabanier]

heycam: we tried again on thursday but we had some issues with Chris' color changes. I waiting to hear back from him and we'll probably publish on tuesday

21:10:25 [cabanier]

heycam: because we have inline svg and we have mathml

21:10:46 [cabanier]

heycam: we needed to change the format of the doc to HTML5 which took a bit of time

21:10:59 [cabanier]

cabanier: so we're using mathml?

21:11:24 [cabanier]

heycam: I converted a couple of formulas of the painting formulas and some of of the path stuff

21:11:34 [Zakim]

+??P6

21:11:35 [cabanier]

heycam: I'm using mathjax

21:11:41 [nikos]

Zakim, P6 is me

21:11:41 [Zakim]

sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'

21:11:47 [nikos]

Zakim, ??P6 is me

21:11:47 [Zakim]

+nikos; got it

21:11:52 [Zakim]

+??P7

21:12:02 [cabanier]

heycam: to provide fallback.

21:12:22 [birtles]

Zakim, ??P7 is me

21:12:22 [Zakim]

+birtles; got it

21:12:33 [cabanier]

heycam: and around 6 months ago it was decided that mathml was OK

21:13:23 [cabanier]

heycam: are you having trouble?

21:13:34 [cabanier]

tav: I tried it today and it took me around 20 min

21:13:51 [cabanier]

heycam: let me know if you have issues and I'll help you

21:14:08 [cabanier]

topic: Lucerne F2F reminder

21:14:16 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012

21:14:34 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012/Agenda_proposals

21:14:45 [cabanier]

ed: there's a page for attending and for proposals

21:14:57 [cabanier]

heycam: I think only cyril hasn't replied

21:15:26 [cabanier]

topic: SVG Accessibility Gap Analysis

21:15:28 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/mid/OF38278C69.E13ACB0C-ON86257A5E.006A2B07-86257A5E.006B7B8B@us.ibm.com

21:16:01 [richardschwerdtfe]

Rich

21:17:11 [cabanier]

heycam: can I reformat it as text and send it to the list

21:17:15 [cabanier]

rich: sure

21:17:28 [cabanier]

doug: that will make it easier to search the archives

21:17:55 [heycam]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Aug/0105.html

21:18:16 [cabanier]

rich: the first part is just about the technology of what happens in the browser

21:18:31 [cabanier]

rich: looking at SVG, we have the gap analysis

21:19:23 [shepazu]

(it might be useful to also look at this http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-aapi-20110414/ )

21:19:34 [cabanier]

rich: the reason for the rule attribute is to give the system information

21:19:48 [ed]

s/rule/role/

21:20:20 [cabanier]

(rich: going over the reason we need accessibility in SVG)

21:20:31 [cabanier]

rich: we have no keyboard navigation

21:20:51 [cabanier]

rich: the structure of SVG doesn't map to platform accessibility

21:21:07 [cabanier]

rich: the grouping element can be repurposed for that reason

21:21:25 [cabanier]

rich: you can assign semantics to it

21:21:48 [cabanier]

rich: the first svg document alludes that we can do this with the <g> element

21:22:37 [cabanier]

rich: svg rendering don't follow system settings such as high contrast

21:23:05 [cabanier]

rich: does high contrast tie in with the developers?

21:23:18 [heycam]

I wonder whether the CSS system colour keywords in conjunction with default colours is sufficient for high constrast support.

21:23:21 [cabanier]

rich: panning and zooming inside of a SVG rendering is important too

21:23:31 [cabanier]

rich: do we do something with animations

21:23:42 [cabanier]

rich: we heard that they are being removed?

21:23:55 [cabanier]

heycam: no. Brian is working on something new

21:24:18 [cabanier]

rich: we want to look into how to make these accessibility

21:24:36 [cabanier]

rich: we should introduce 'role' on elements

21:25:24 [cabanier]

rich: the role attribute on safari and webkit on svg is mapped to the accessibility API

21:25:44 [cabanier]

rich: we could develop more states to ARIA and apply them to SVG

21:26:05 [cabanier]

rich: MS and ??? would like tabindex applied to SVG so you can have keyboard navigation

21:26:42 [cabanier]

rich: do we want to provide the ability to zoom into content that is not visible

21:27:04 [cabanier]

doug: what is the behavior of fragment id with zooming and panning?

21:27:30 [cabanier]

doug: the user might not want to zoom in on the bounding box.

21:28:11 [cabanier]

doug: we've talked about the idea of adding tab index to SVG but SVG already has one that is better

21:28:13 [ed]

an example of tabbing between nodes in an svg, with panning: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/interact-focus-203-t.svg

21:28:16 [ed]

works in opera

21:28:18 [cabanier]

rich: so you want both models?

21:28:23 [cabanier]

doug: yeah

21:28:33 [ed]

(testcase is from the SVG 1.2T testsuite)

21:28:38 [cabanier]

rich: that sounds fine. I have to look into again

21:28:54 [cabanier]

rich: but there doesn't seem opposition to adding tab index

21:29:23 [cabanier]

heycam: yes, we should have keyboard navigation. Even outside the accessibility use case

21:31:20 [cabanier]

ed: do we just want tab behavior or 4/8 way navigation too?

21:31:35 [cabanier]

ed: I'd prefer that whatever we had in tiny keeps working

21:31:45 [cabanier]

heycam: we should look into the model

21:32:09 [cabanier]

ed: yes, it should be possible to make it work. It makes sense to have it in SVG if it works in HTML

21:32:24 [cabanier]

heycam: weren't they going to be added to CSS?

21:32:53 [cabanier]

doug: tantek decided not to add the navigation keyword to CSS UI 3 but I don't know why

21:33:26 [cabanier]

doug: tab index is not sufficient for a lot of scenarios. We would have to define how those work together

21:33:52 [cabanier]

doug: for arrow key navigation, the keyword are: up/right/etc

21:34:09 [cabanier]

doug: those are directional navigation elements

21:34:19 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments -- see items 97, 98, 99 -- that covers the navigation properties and HTML's tabindex

21:35:09 [cabanier]

doug: you need an algorihtmic way to find out what 'up' means

21:35:39 [cabanier]

heycam: item 99 is similar to tabindex, 97 covers nav

21:35:50 [cabanier]

rich: so it's resolved to do this feature?

21:35:54 [cabanier]

heycam: yes

21:36:03 [cabanier]

rich: who is going to do the spec work?

21:36:20 [cabanier]

heycam: nobody has signed up for it

21:36:36 [shepazu]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#specifyingnavigation

21:36:52 [cabanier]

doug: here's what we have so far

21:37:19 [cabanier]

doug: the only conflict is nav-next and nav-prev

21:37:46 [cabanier]

doug: I will take a look if there's a conflict with tab index. It's an interest of mine

21:38:18 [cabanier]

action: shepazu is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation

21:38:18 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-3341 - Is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-08-30].

21:39:01 [cabanier]

doug: I see they're attributes but not properties. We need to talk to the CSS people about that

21:39:28 [cabanier]

rich: I''m willing to take an action for the aria and the role attribute

21:39:37 [shepazu]

q+ to discuss system colors

21:39:41 [cabanier]

heycam: we already have role in tiny

21:39:44 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#RoleAttribute

21:40:48 [cabanier]

tav: please provide examples because I tried to do it in the past and there's no documentation out there

21:40:53 [cabanier]

doug: I have some!

21:41:00 [cabanier]

tav: those are the only ones...

21:42:39 [cabanier]

doug: I dropped in a document. This contains a table that has all the ally api's

21:42:52 [cabanier]

doug: I found it really useful

21:43:13 [cabanier]

rich: yes, everyone needs to understand what we're doing

21:43:13 [shepazu]

q?

21:44:06 [cabanier]

resolution: define Role and ARIA states and property attributes in SVG

21:44:26 [cabanier]

doug: we want to do the same as HTML did it

21:46:41 [cabanier]

rich: we feel that the industry hasn't done enough for accessibility

21:46:56 [cabanier]

rich: with flash going away, we want to look into SVG

21:47:13 [cabanier]

heycam: what did flash do?

21:47:44 [cabanier]

rich: it doesn't deal with table structure. You can have a group or a panel. The evens are hardcoded to the windows platform

21:47:50 [shepazu]

example of SVG table with ARIA http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/table.svg

21:48:00 [cabanier]

rich: it has no knowledge about rich text.

21:48:13 [cabanier]

rich: they don't have structure content

21:48:46 [cabanier]

rich: it was not that great and Adobe is not investigating it any more

21:49:32 [cabanier]

rich: limited windows support. They wanted to add richer accessibility support but it's not happening

21:50:32 [shepazu]

ack shepazu

21:50:32 [Zakim]

shepazu, you wanted to discuss system colors

21:50:49 [cabanier]

doug: what did you mean with system colors?

21:51:06 [cabanier]

rich: desktop applications can respond to going to high contrast mode

21:51:13 [shepazu]

CSS 3 system colors deprecated http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#css-system

21:51:41 [cabanier]

rich: we could add an API for that so the application is notified

21:52:04 [cabanier]

doug: I think there's an opportunity for doing this in CSS

21:52:14 [cabanier]

doug: like with a media query

21:52:38 [cabanier]

doug: not just for ally, but various lighting conditions

21:53:19 [cabanier]

doug: or for people that are color blind

21:53:38 [cabanier]

doug: using media queries we can have the document be styled differently

21:54:39 [birtles]

CSS luminance media queries http://fremycompany.com/BG/2012/Ambient-light-sensors-and-CSS-Media-Queries-971/ (doesn't support the red-green red-blue thing though)

21:54:41 [cabanier]

doug: then designers can provide an alternate representation

21:54:52 [cabanier]

tav: do you think designers will do this?

21:55:13 [cabanier]

doug: I think there will be aftermarket people will do this redesigns

21:55:40 [cabanier]

doug: designers don't want to do the high contrast page because it doesn't look good

21:56:11 [cabanier]

ed: I like Brian's doc

21:56:24 [cabanier]

rich: we should go to the CSS WG for the media queries?

21:56:28 [cabanier]

all: yes

21:58:13 [cabanier]

action: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration

21:58:14 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-3342 - Write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2012-08-30].

21:58:42 [cabanier]

rich: panning and zooming is something that Kelvin wants

21:58:53 [cabanier]

rich: it would be nice to pan and zoom portions

21:59:02 [cabanier]

rich: of an SVG document

21:59:24 [cabanier]

kelvin: you could describe a rectangle to do pan and zoom

22:00:06 [cabanier]

kelvin: it's not an SVG thing. I'm not sure how the WG can influence this. The Adobe viewer had

22:00:31 [cabanier]

ed: it's supported in some other viewers. Not sure if it's well documented

22:00:41 [cabanier]

rich: can we put this in the spec?

22:01:03 [cabanier]

heycam: it's still in the spec but it hasn't gotten widespread implementation

22:01:12 [ed]

s/ well documented/ well documented in the respective UA's docs how it works/

22:02:08 [cabanier]

doug: in the past people wanted to limit the scope that we can influence the UI

22:02:12 [ed]

s/it's supported in some other viewers/ctrl+dragging inside an svg for panning, alt+click / shift+alt+click for zooming in and out is supported in some other viewers/

22:02:14 [Zakim]

-birtles

22:02:34 [cabanier]

doug: Opera has the zoom slider

22:02:52 [thorton]

thorton has joined #svg

22:02:58 [cabanier]

doug: we can try to say that they need to implement some sort of zoom and pan

22:03:12 [thorton]

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22:04:06 [cabanier]

kelvin: with accessibility we can say that we need it which might force them to add it

22:04:21 [cabanier]

rich: should we strengthen the language?

22:05:14 [cabanier]

doug: Kelvin, would you want to write up what we need from pan and zoom? so we can feedback from browser vendors

22:05:29 [cabanier]

kelvin: yes, I will reread the spec and write something up

22:05:55 [cabanier]

action: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility

22:05:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-3343 - Write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility [on Kelvin Lawrence - due 2012-08-30].

22:06:16 [cabanier]

topic: CSS4 <image> as value for <paint>

22:06:23 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/mid/FBBDBDBC-F3CD-404E-AFC1-0369A75DAA89@adobe.com

22:06:57 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

22:07:09 [cabanier]

ed: why was this for css4 images and not 3?

22:07:30 [cabanier]

cabanier: isn't 3 already in LC? Tab is working on version 4

22:07:55 [cabanier]

heycam: so, the element() is in CSS4

22:08:10 [cabanier]

cabanier: maybe put it on the agenda again next week

22:08:25 [ed]

ed: css3-images is in CR

22:08:44 [cabanier]

cabanier: wasn't there also a decision to push off element()

22:09:11 [cabanier]

cabanier: maybe it was the one that referred to other html chunk

22:09:26 [cabanier]

ed: we

22:09:38 [cabanier]

ed: we'll put it on the topic next week

22:09:51 [cabanier]

topic: <color-profile> element

22:09:57 [cabanier]

ed: chris isn't here

22:10:18 [ed]

s/the topic next/the agenda for next/

22:10:35 [cabanier]

heycam: we already decided to remove the font element

22:11:04 [cabanier]

heycam: there is no advantage to be able to specify as an element as well as a CSS @ rule

22:11:12 [cabanier]

cabanier: that sounds reasonable

22:11:20 [cabanier]

heycam: and it wasn't widely implemented

22:11:37 [cabanier]

ed: is this tagging the image with a profile?

22:11:41 [ed]

https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/color.html#ColorProfileElement

22:12:18 [cabanier]

cabanier: it's there so you can give it a link to an ICC profile and give it a name

22:14:00 [cabanier]

heycam: and then you can reference the name of the color profile in the paint

22:14:34 [cabanier]

heycam: it makes sense just to have the @ rule

22:15:14 [cabanier]

ed: I can't think of a reason to have it

22:16:36 [cabanier]

heycam: it's just as easy to get to an @ rule through the DOM

22:17:00 [cabanier]

resolution: remove the <color-profile> element from the spec

22:18:01 [cabanier]

action: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from the spec

22:18:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-3344 - Remove <color-profile> element from the spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-08-30].

22:18:23 [cabanier]

ed: any other topics?

22:18:47 [cabanier]

heycam: there are some things on the mailing list but we can do that later

22:18:58 [glenn]

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22:19:04 [cabanier]

nikos: weren't there things that we want Erik's input on?

22:20:05 [cabanier]

heycam: one of the items was clipping on filters: before/after/both

22:20:11 [cabanier]

nikos: we didn't decide

22:20:55 [cabanier]

ed: we discussed it a lot. the current version of the spec picks one of the ways and we discussed doing auto for drop shadows etc

22:21:30 [cabanier]

heycam: we have margins too.

22:21:46 [cabanier]

ed: we took them out but re-added them for shaders

22:21:55 [cabanier]

ed: I have to look into it again

22:22:15 [cabanier]

heycam: dirk should be here to drive the discussion

22:22:24 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

22:22:38 [cabanier]

heycam: this is the discussion

22:22:52 [ed]

ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

22:22:52 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-3345 - Respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-08-30].

22:22:54 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html#item04

22:23:43 [cabanier]

ed: I will respond to both offline

22:25:18 [ed]

s/I will respond to both offline/I will read these offline and respond/

22:26:24 [Zakim]

-Kelvin

22:26:25 [Zakim]

-cabanier

22:26:26 [Zakim]

-heycam

22:26:27 [Zakim]

-Rich

22:26:27 [Zakim]

-Tav

22:26:28 [Zakim]

-ed

22:26:28 [Zakim]

-nikos

22:26:28 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended

22:26:30 [Zakim]

Attendees were Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier, Tav, ed, nikos, birtles

22:26:57 [ed]

trackbot, end telcon

22:26:57 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

22:26:57 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

22:27:05 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

22:27:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html trackbot

22:27:06 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-actions.rdf :

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: shepazu is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [1]

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T21-38-18

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration [2]

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T21-58-13

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility [3]

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T22-05-55

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from the spec [4]

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T22-18-01

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 [5]

22:27:06 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T22-22-52

22:27:31 [richardschwerdtfe]

richardschwerdtfe has left #svg