00:17:23 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
00:17:28 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-wg
00:22:51 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-wg
00:41:28 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
00:51:05 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #html-wg
01:37:48 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #html-wg
01:46:15 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
02:17:09 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
02:19:29 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
02:20:48 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
03:17:43 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
03:54:41 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #html-wg
03:58:00 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
04:24:18 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #html-wg
04:28:39 <rniwa_> rniwa_ has joined #html-wg
04:34:48 <Philip> Philip has joined #html-wg
06:42:10 <nesta_> nesta_ has joined #html-wg
06:48:03 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
06:48:07 <Philip> Philip has joined #html-wg
07:15:29 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
07:17:34 <jmb> jmb has joined #html-wg
07:26:53 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
08:03:30 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
08:03:38 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
08:15:50 <drublic> drublic has joined #html-wg
08:48:35 <icaaq1> icaaq1 has joined #html-wg
08:50:59 <gavin> gavin has joined #html-wg
08:52:33 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
08:53:46 <icaaq1> icaaq1 has joined #html-wg
09:18:28 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
09:47:28 <nonge_> nonge_ has joined #html-wg
10:49:12 <mattur> mattur has joined #html-wg
11:02:31 <tH> tH has joined #html-wg
11:12:00 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
11:20:50 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
12:17:10 <icaaq1> icaaq1 has joined #html-wg
12:40:36 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-wg
13:43:43 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #html-wg
13:59:01 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
15:29:42 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
15:31:05 <J_Voracek> J_Voracek has joined #html-wg
15:31:20 <J_Voracek>  
15:37:53 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
15:40:27 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
15:43:36 <J_Voracek> J_Voracek has joined #html-wg
15:54:24 <Clarke> Clarke has joined #html-wg
16:00:12 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
16:00:17 <MFoladare> MFoladare has joined #html-wg
16:00:24 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
16:00:31 <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
16:00:35 <eliot> eliot has joined #html-wg
16:00:47 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
16:00:52 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
16:00:57 <krisk> krisk has joined #html-wg
16:01:14 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
16:01:40 <magnus> magnus has joined #html-wg
16:02:12 <hiroki> hiroki has joined #html-wg
16:02:23 <shan> shan has joined #html-wg
16:03:45 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #html-wg
16:04:13 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:04:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
16:04:57 <tantek> good morning
16:05:05 <MikeSmith> ArtB, yeah
16:05:12 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:05:21 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
16:05:36 <MikeSmith> hey tantek, we are starting in a couple minutes, so you guys will have to catch up once you get here
16:05:40 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-wg
16:06:02 <ArtB> Title: HTML WG F2F Meeting
16:06:27 <Clarke> Will there be a phone connection?
16:06:37 <MikeSmith> Clarke, yeah
16:06:46 <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
16:06:52 <tantek> thanks MikeSmith
16:07:42 <odinho> odinho has joined #html-wg
16:07:43 <MikeSmith> Clarke, +1.617.761.6200, code 4865
16:07:45 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
16:08:02 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
16:08:07 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
16:08:10 <plh> zakim, this will be html
16:08:10 <Zakim> ok, plh, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:08:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:08:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
16:08:15 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:08:15 <trackbot> Date: 03 May 2012
16:08:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:08:27 <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
16:08:33 <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
16:08:44 <Zakim> +tantek
16:09:04 <odinho> Present+ Odin_Horthe_Omdal
16:09:10 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #html-wg
16:09:30 <eliot> zakim, microsoft has me
16:09:31 <Zakim> +eliot; got it
16:09:53 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
16:10:01 <plh> Present+ plh
16:10:09 <magnus> Present+ Magnus_Olsson
16:10:15 <Zakim> -??P24
16:10:17 <tantek> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:10:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], tantek
16:10:18 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has eliot
16:10:41 <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
16:10:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html plh
16:10:43 <tantek> we can't hear anything on the phone btw
16:10:44 <Zakim> +??P0
16:10:54 <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
16:10:54 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
16:10:54 <Clarke> zakim, ??P0 is me
16:10:55 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
16:11:07 <tantek> is the room dialed into the phone?
16:11:27 <glenn> glenn has joined #html-wg
16:11:29 <plh> not yet
16:11:30 <MikeSmith> tantek, we are dialing in now
16:11:36 <plh> zakim, passcode?
16:11:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
16:12:26 <Wonsuk> Wonsuk has joined #html-wg
16:12:30 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-wg
16:12:38 <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
16:12:49 <Zakim> + +1.650.693.aaaa
16:14:19 <bryan> bryan has joined #html-wg
16:14:30 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:14:35 <rubys> rubys has left #html-wg
16:16:29 <Zakim> -tantek
16:16:35 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-wg
16:16:37 <Zakim> +hober
16:18:23 <JF> JF has joined #html-wg
16:18:25 <tantek> Zakim, mute hober
16:18:26 <Zakim> hober should now be muted
16:18:30 <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow
16:18:36 <krisk> Present+ krisk
16:18:49 <tantek> zakim, unmute hober
16:18:49 <Zakim> hober should no longer be muted
16:19:05 <tantek> Zakim, mute hober
16:19:05 <Zakim> hober should now be muted
16:19:10 <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
16:19:25 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-wg
16:20:01 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
16:20:05 <mark_vickers> mark_vickers has joined #html-wg
16:21:09 <krisk> scribe: krisk
16:21:23 <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
16:21:26 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
16:21:35 <glenn> Present+ Glenn_Adams_(glenn)
16:22:00 <krisk> paulc: choosing topics for F2F
16:22:48 <krisk> paulc: Potential Topics...
16:23:07 <krisk> time/date OR how/when we add semantic elements to HTML
16:23:17 <krisk> Issue 183
16:23:49 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-wg
16:24:07 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
16:24:13 <krisk> media extensions/Encrypted media
16:24:18 <krisk> HTMLG WG charter
16:25:03 <krisk> If people have specific timeslots for an agenda then we will accomidate
16:25:25 <eliot> needs to drop off the call for a bit. Will return later.
16:25:47 <krisk> #1 Time/Date
16:25:48 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:26:02 <JVoracek> JVoracek has joined #html-wg
16:26:05 <krisk> #2 Media Extensions +Task Force
16:26:15 <krisk> #3 HTML Charter (V.NEXT)
16:26:19 <krisk> #4 Test Suite
16:26:33 <krisk> #5 Issue 199
16:27:00 <odinho> s/accomidate/accommodate/
16:27:11 <krisk> #6 Issue 201 (canvas hit testing)
16:27:23 <krisk> paulc: Let's collect some other topics?
16:27:38 <krisk> paulc: If you have outstanding issue, please speak up
16:28:16 <krisk> anne: what is the charter (#3) about
16:28:40 <krisk> plh: we can dive into any of these or scope
16:29:00 <krisk> anne: We should talk about the items that occured last week...
16:29:08 <krisk> ..CG, editors...
16:29:27 <krisk> paulc: This is the stabilization of the spec
16:30:08 <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html Draft HTML5 Stabilization Plan
16:30:12 <krisk> #7 Stabization and FAQ
16:30:43 <MikeSmith> issue-194?
16:30:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
16:30:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
16:30:44 <krisk> #8 Issue 194
16:31:14 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-wg
16:31:17 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
16:31:38 <MikeSmith> 21 open issue
16:31:51 <MikeSmith> s/open issue/open issues/
16:32:08 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #html-wg
16:32:24 <krisk> #9 Other Issues (21 total), discussion about any of these
16:32:31 <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
16:32:38 <MikeSmith> (Mark Watson arrives)
16:32:45 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:32:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:32:55 <krisk> paulc: we can talk about feedback for proposal, questions, etc...
16:33:24 <Russell_Berkoff> Russell_Berkoff has joined #html-wg
16:33:24 <MikeSmith> issue-199?
16:33:24 <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
16:33:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
16:33:31 <mjs> hober: are you here yet?
16:33:34 <krisk> paulc: do we have a rough time estimate for issue 199?
16:33:49 <krisk> mikesmith: should be about 45 minutes
16:34:41 <krisk> paulc: Issue 201 will need about 90 minutes
16:35:58 <krisk> paulc: Media extensions, are people ready to discuss this?
16:36:06 <odinho> s/Stabization/Stabilization/
16:36:40 <krisk> paulc: given the threads, it should take a long time (120 minutes)
16:36:47 <krisk> anne: can we split the two...
16:36:48 <J_Voracek> J_Voracek has joined #html-wg
16:39:16 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #html-wg
16:40:18 <krisk> Shoudl we do one of the media ones first?
16:41:32 <krisk> ...no agreement...
16:41:54 <krisk> paulc: let's to stabilization first?
16:42:38 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #html-wg
16:43:33 <MikeSmith> issue-183?
16:43:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
16:43:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
16:43:37 <MikeSmith> issue-184?
16:43:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
16:43:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
16:43:45 <Zakim> -hober
16:44:23 <shan> s/Shoudl/Should/
16:44:35 <krisk> paulc..here is the rough schedule
16:44:53 <krisk> 9->10:30 today == Stabilization
16:45:04 <krisk> 10:45: -> noon Issue-199
16:45:14 <krisk> 1->3pm Issue 201
16:45:49 <krisk> 3:15 -> 5pm Issue 194, <time> & <date>, 183, 184
16:46:07 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #html-wg
16:46:20 <krisk> paulc: please object if this doesn't work for you
16:46:36 <krisk> Friday 9->10:30 Media (both parts)
16:46:52 <krisk> 10:45 -> noon Charter
16:46:57 <odinho> s/let's to/let's do/
16:47:07 <krisk> 1-> 5pm Test suite/Open Issues
16:48:00 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-wg
16:48:47 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
16:48:58 <krisk> paulc: Let's move into the stabilization topic
16:49:03 <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html
16:50:10 <anne> is there an updated agenda?
16:50:12 <odinho> s/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html HTML Working Group Changes email, April 2012/
16:50:19 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #html-wg
16:50:24 <paulc> See also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0205.html
16:50:30 <anne> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda looks updated, sorry
16:50:42 <paulc> FAQ: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html
16:50:46 <krisk> paulc: see both links
16:51:05 <krisk> paulc: starting with the WG Changes
16:51:22 <MikeSmith> Tantek, Ted have arrived
16:51:28 <krisk> ..Editor changes
16:51:38 <MikeSmith> Cynthia Shelly has arrived
16:51:46 <krisk> paulc: any questions?
16:51:52 <janina> janina has joined #html-wg
16:52:34 <krisk> paulc: stabilization plan is the second part
16:52:37 <odinho> s|FAQ: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html|-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html FAQ (Draft HTML5 Stabilization Plan)|
16:53:15 <krisk> paulc: Q6 in the FAQ has decision policy changes
16:53:51 <krisk> paulc: many of these bugs are very strong, so if you are not familiar please read
16:54:12 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-wg
16:54:26 <krisk> paulc: for example you can only comment on from LC1
16:54:42 <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
16:54:49 <krisk> anne: is this allowed by the process?
16:55:07 <krisk> msj: it's happend before in WGs
16:55:30 <krisk> paulc: we do want the decision policy in place before starting LC2
16:55:37 <krisk> msj: two questions...
16:55:37 <nesta_> nesta_ has joined #html-wg
16:55:47 <krisk> ..is this allowed
16:56:22 <krisk> msj: Do people think this works for the WG, regardless of it being allow or not
16:56:47 <krisk> anne: this seems to discourage comments
16:57:14 <krisk> glenn: we could have new bugs become exceptions
16:57:32 <tantek> q+ to say that implementation experience (browsers, web sites) is a good source of commentary for anything in LC.
16:57:59 <krisk> plh: the process allows you to comment
16:58:14 <glenn> i.e., if a new bug is commented that wasn't previously commented, the WG may choose to process instead of ruling out of scope due to lack of prior LC1 comment
16:58:37 <krisk> plh: it's just that response to the comment will be 'too late'
16:58:46 <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
16:58:53 <krisk> anne: I don't like this..
16:59:07 <krisk> paulc: it could be move to HTML.Next
16:59:26 <krisk> msj: see bug #16676
17:00:01 <odinho> s/msj/mjs/g
17:00:16 <krisk> mjs: later in the spec development cycle adding new features doesn't work
17:00:58 <krisk> rubys: let's look at the proposed diff
17:01:09 <laura> laura has joined #html-wg
17:02:18 <krisk> mjs: The key part of the diff is..
17:02:46 <krisk> mjs: The chairs agree we do need an exception
17:04:02 <krisk> mjs: For second and subsequent last calls, only comments related to changes made since the start of the previous last call will be accepted.
17:04:27 <adrianba> q+
17:04:39 <MikeSmith> q?
17:04:44 <krisk> This is to ensure we do not get into an infinite regress of new feedback; only new changes will get re-reviewed.
17:04:48 <paulc> ack tantek
17:04:48 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that implementation experience (browsers, web sites) is a good source of commentary for anything in LC.
17:04:50 <krisk> paulc: can we here from the room?
17:05:16 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
17:05:19 <odinho> s/here/hear/
17:05:21 <krisk> tantek: Getting feedback from vendors, authors will be tough (since spec is very large)
17:05:22 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #html-wg
17:05:32 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
17:06:02 <ArtB> q+
17:06:10 <krisk> ..when browser vendors start to impl features, the find issues that have not changed.
17:06:43 <krisk> mjs: how did the CSS2.1 spec go?
17:07:28 <krisk> tantek: Issues were found and the spec went last call -> CR -> last call -> CR-> lastcall...
17:07:35 <krisk> paulc: we want to get to CR
17:08:26 <krisk> mjs: the w3c process, states that if you have made major changes then you need to go back to last call
17:09:24 <paulc> ack adrian
17:09:43 <mark> mark has joined #html-wg
17:09:48 <krisk> adrianb: the goal of overtime narrow comments, is a good goal
17:10:04 <krisk> s/narrow/narrowing/
17:10:31 <tantek> q+
17:10:34 <krisk> adrianb: we should impl these changes and if they don't work then we can revisit
17:10:35 <paulc> ack artb
17:10:36 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #html-wg
17:11:08 <paulc> ack tantek
17:11:09 <krisk> artb: Q6 seems reasonable, though I could see a issue coming up for the first time
17:11:29 <krisk> tanek: This is fixing the wrong problem..
17:11:49 <adrianba> s/tanek/tantek/
17:11:50 <krisk> tantek: I'd rather see the WG push for CR and then handle objections
17:12:41 <krisk> anne: most of the bugs are OK, except the limiting the scope of issues
17:13:02 <krisk> paulc: I'd like to hear from the rest of the room
17:13:14 <krisk> paulc: Bug 16676
17:13:30 <anne> Also, in general, I think we should aim for less process, not more...
17:14:06 <krisk> paulc: let's do a vote...
17:14:15 <krisk> paulc: room seems evenly split...
17:14:42 <mjs> Here's the part of the W3C Process that theoretically requires a new LC after substantive changes: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#return-to-wg
17:14:45 <krisk> paulc: can anyone not live with the change?
17:15:19 <krisk> paulc: seems like if the co-chairs push forward we won't get strong pushback
17:15:47 <krisk> mjs: please see the link I pasted in..
17:16:25 <MikeSmith> q?
17:16:29 <odinho> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:16:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html odinho
17:16:33 <rubys> q+
17:17:02 <rubys> q-
17:17:21 <krisk> paulc: giving notice..after next last call we will be going to CR
17:17:51 <krisk> paulc: bug 16841 is the feature freeze, basically no new features by default
17:19:04 <krisk> paulc  bug 16674
17:20:01 <krisk> paulc: we are trying to not have changes just appearing in the spec by the editor
17:20:19 <krisk> paulc: rather changes should come from bugs
17:20:40 <odinho> i/choosing topics for F2F/Topic: Choosing topics for F2F
17:21:21 <krisk> paulc: bug 13306 is about getting editors to do work in a finite amount of time
17:21:36 <krisk> anne: woud like to talk about this in general
17:22:19 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:22:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
17:22:26 <krisk> paulc: co-chairs have not processed the applications for editors, but will do so in the next few weeks
17:23:03 <krisk> anne: the main issue is that we have too much process already and now we are adding more..
17:23:34 <mjs> q+
17:23:56 <krisk> anne: the amount of process is driving people away for the WG
17:24:20 <chaals> q+
17:24:22 <MikeSmith> q?
17:24:28 <plh> ack mjs
17:24:36 <adrianba> s/for the WG/from the WG/
17:24:37 <krisk> mjs: do you have any specific ways or thoughts on how this could be changed?
17:24:42 <tantek> q+ to say that current process (and proposed changes) appear(s) to favor spending time on process rather than technical discussion.
17:25:45 <krisk> mjs: my point of view the weight of the process can impact the group...
17:25:47 <janina> janina has left #html-wg
17:26:02 <odinho> i/Let's move into the stabilization topic/Topic: Stabilization
17:26:13 <tantek> q+ to also say flamewars need to be dealt with by chairs stepping in and shutting them down, not by additional process.
17:26:22 <krisk> mjs: unlike in the webapps WG, the wg was not able to get people to agree and threads never closed out
17:26:23 <janina> janina has joined #html-wg
17:26:27 <chaals> [what maciej said. If there are concrete proposals to change the process and make it nicer, that would be great, but otherwise let's not have a process discussion]
17:26:50 <mark> q+
17:26:52 <chaals> ack me
17:26:55 <odinho> s|s/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html HTML Working Group Changes email, April 2012/||
17:26:57 <plh> ack tantek
17:26:57 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that current process (and proposed changes) appear(s) to favor spending time on process rather than technical discussion. and to also say flamewars need
17:27:00 <Zakim> ... to be dealt with by chairs stepping in and shutting them down, not by additional process.
17:27:53 <krisk> tantek: the group has gotten to the point that people don't want to even help improve the process
17:28:18 <krisk> tantek: we are doing more process rather than technical discussions
17:28:57 <krisk> tantek: microdata+RDFa discussion is a good example of discussion just ending..
17:29:34 <krisk> tantek: chairs should just say in the list this is a perma thread..
17:30:24 <plh> q?
17:30:27 <plh> ack mark
17:30:28 <mjs> q+
17:31:02 <MikeSmith> q?
17:31:35 <JF> +1 to what Cynthia is saying
17:31:45 <paulc> q+
17:31:49 <krisk> cythia: we at the point in 'shipping' that adding new stuff will be painful
17:32:33 <krisk> cynthia: it's better now than in the past
17:32:51 <paulc> ack mjs
17:33:00 <krisk> anne: thinks the group is worse
17:33:38 <MikeSmith> to be fair, much of the technical discussion takes place in bugzilla and so it's natural that we have less technical discussion on the list than other groups do
17:33:40 <krisk> mjs: for one reason or not the HTML spec has been a nexus of issues
17:34:03 <MikeSmith> q+ to mention CORS
17:34:23 <plh> q+
17:34:23 <krisk> mjs: I would like alot less process, but in html after years the wg could not agree and move on
17:34:48 <krisk> mjs: for the next version I would not like to see this process used
17:35:24 <johnsim> johnsim has joined #html-wg
17:35:34 <krisk> mjs: just like in software the start it's a free for all..then overtime features/changes get more scoped
17:37:26 <krisk> paulc: the chairs didn't come with just a stabilzation plan, it was also came with a place for technical discussions to occur on new features
17:37:35 <krisk> paulc: we want to do both at the same time..
17:37:59 <anne> q+ to say this is not about new vs old
17:38:01 <paulc> ack Mikes
17:38:01 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to mention CORS
17:38:30 <paulc> ack paulc
17:38:33 <krisk> mikesmith: not all webapps stuff is perfect
17:39:53 <krisk> mikesmith: in the WG we have people that are fundementally oposed
17:40:52 <krisk> mikesmith: I don't know of a process that can fix this problem
17:41:30 <krisk> plh: in CSS they struggled with CSS3 vs CSS2.1..
17:41:31 <rubys> mikesmith cited hybi and cors as examples
17:41:43 <chaals> [face to face time is helpful for webapps. There are a lot of people who have had a lot of time to talk to each other inside and outside the working group, and that is a key to such success as we have]
17:42:05 <janina> +1 to Chaas as a general rule
17:42:24 <chaals> ack pl
17:42:26 <paulc> ack anne
17:42:26 <Zakim> anne, you wanted to say this is not about new vs old
17:42:26 <chaals> ack ann
17:42:39 <tantek> mikesmith - hybi was hijacked by a single individual who has a known history of trolling in w3c lists.
17:42:39 <krisk> plh: the chairs could push back to have people work together more than raising issues
17:43:12 <MikeSmith> tantek, that individual did not end up editing the spec
17:43:19 <tantek> anne: "the way things are being worked on are toxic in my opinion"
17:43:35 <krisk> paulc: do we think we need more time on the topic?
17:43:50 <krisk> mjs: we didn't discuss the community group
17:43:52 <JF> [I would like to add that "the other way" was and is seen by some groups as toxic as well]
17:44:09 <krisk> paulc: ok we will discuss this after the coffee break
17:44:10 <tantek> MikeSmith - but he did make discussion on the list nearly impossible
17:44:41 <krisk> paulc: we will meet again at 11am
17:45:16 <krisk> paulc: we are about 15 minutes behind the schedule overall..
17:46:53 <brucel> brucel has joined #html-wg
17:48:26 <Zakim> +Cooper
17:56:21 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
18:04:48 <brucel> brucel has left #html-wg
18:05:56 <eliot> is getting a message that "the conference is restricted at this time."
18:06:29 <Zakim> -Cooper
18:06:41 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #html-wg
18:07:07 <eliot> same thing. thanks for trying
18:07:16 <Zakim> +Cooper
18:09:24 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
18:09:26 <eliot> ahhhhhh
18:09:55 <Zakim> -Clarke
18:10:23 <eliot> when does break end?
18:10:48 <eliot> ;)
18:11:45 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 until 20:00?
18:11:45 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
18:11:53 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 from now to 20:00?
18:11:53 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
18:12:51 <Clarke> zakim, call Clarke
18:12:51 <Zakim> I am sorry, Clarke; I do not know a number for Clarke
18:13:10 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 for 6 hours?
18:13:10 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
18:13:22 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 for 360 minutes?
18:13:23 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)18:13Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 360 minutes until 0013Z
18:13:47 <Zakim> -Cooper
18:14:08 <Clarke> OK
18:14:14 <Zakim> - +1.650.693.aaaa
18:14:15 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
18:14:15 <Zakim> Attendees were Radhika_Roy, tantek, eliot, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, hober, Cooper
18:14:21 <MichaelC> zakim, this will be 26631
18:14:21 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; I see Team_(html-wg)18:13Z scheduled to start now
18:14:29 <MichaelC> zakim, call cooper-mit
18:14:29 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
18:14:30 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)18:13Z has now started
18:14:31 <Zakim> +Cooper
18:14:37 <Zakim> +??P0
18:14:47 <Clarke> zakim, ??P0 is me
18:14:47 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
18:14:57 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-wg
18:15:02 <Zakim> + +1.650.693.aaaa
18:15:14 <f2f> f2f has joined #html-wg
18:15:16 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-wg
18:15:29 <chaals> scribe: chaals
18:15:35 <chaals> q+
18:15:36 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
18:15:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cooper, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa
18:15:42 <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
18:15:45 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:15:53 <eliot> zakim, microsoft is eliot
18:15:55 <Zakim> +eliot; got it
18:16:08 <janina> zakim, aaaa is F2F
18:16:08 <Zakim> +F2F; got it
18:16:10 <eliot> thanks, MichaelC!
18:16:32 <chaals> q?
18:16:58 <chaals> ack me
18:17:06 <chaals> Topic: ISSUE-199
18:17:13 <MikeSmith> issue-199?
18:17:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
18:17:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
18:17:27 <chaals> mjs: This is about hooking things up to ARIA - what is required...
18:17:29 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-199
18:17:58 <chaals> ... there are two proposals for this issue. Maybe we can get closer to consensus through discussion - they seem to be in the same spirit but different in technical details
18:18:26 <odinho> s|http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199 ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes|
18:18:37 <chaals> michaelc: Two proposals - I submitted one, Ted submitted one. And there is a critique that Hixie submitted.
18:19:03 <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing Michael Cooper's ARIA Processing proposal
18:19:14 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:19:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:19:15 <chaals> ... gone through them. I think we only have a couple of technical disagreements and want to focus on those. The rest is formality abou how we express things in the spec rather than technical difference - it is stil important to ensure we all nderstand the same from what the spec says.
18:19:30 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
18:19:47 <chaals> ... First issue: should role be a single token, or a list of tokens. In my proposal it is a list, primarily for forward compatibility when new roles are introduced you can still use a fallback role.
18:19:58 <chaals> ... user agent would process first value it recognises
18:20:03 <bryan> bryan has joined #html-wg
18:20:07 <chaals> Ted: Is this a difference?
18:20:29 <chaals> michaelC: technical disagreement is whether there is value in setting up a list of tokens rather than a single value.
18:20:39 <chaals> mjs: can we enumerate the issues, then go through them?
18:21:15 <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-199 Ted O'Connor's ARIA Processing proposal
18:21:21 <chaals> michaelC: second issue is how we clarify the forward-compatibility model.
18:21:34 <chaals> ... think my proposal was unclear but I am not sure what would make it more clear.
18:21:59 <chaals> ... Third: How to make it clear that the first-recognised token gets processed. Ian had "first token", which isn't what I meant.
18:22:30 <chaals> ... Fourth: allowing properties to be restricted where they are not appropriate, or allow processing to determine whether they are recognised when encoutnered.
18:22:44 <chaals> ... Fifth: Should ARIA stuff be defined in HTML, or in ARIA.
18:23:05 <chaals> ... Sixth: What processing shouldbe defined in HTML, what should be defined by ARIA UA implementation guide.
18:23:13 <chaals> s/shouldbe/should be/
18:23:18 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
18:23:25 <chaals> Ted: nothing to add.
18:23:35 <mjs> ach richardschwerdtfe 
18:23:36 <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role
18:23:41 <chaals> rich: If you look at user agent implementation guide...
18:23:43 <mjs> ack richardschwerdtfe 
18:23:45 <Mark_Vic_> Mark_Vic_ has joined #html-wg
18:24:06 <Mark_Vic_> Mark_Vic_ has left #html-wg
18:24:07 <chaals> s|http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role|-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role aria ua implementation guide
18:24:08 <Mark_Vic_> Mark_Vic_ has joined #html-wg
18:24:24 <chaals> ... says how to handle mapping between aria and native platform.
18:24:39 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-wg
18:24:49 <chaals> ... says where aria roles override host semantics, DOM doesn't change. UA must still map the aria roles in the accessibility interfaces.
18:24:59 <chaals> Ted: Which issue is this?
18:25:10 <chaals> Rich: Did you use what was here when you defined role mapping?
18:25:34 <chaals> Ted: in my proposal WAI ARIA role is the first non-abstract role found - think that is the same.
18:25:45 <chaals> Rich: Reason we don't just point to the table in the guide?
18:25:53 <chaals> Avk: the text there is less specific.
18:25:59 <chaals> s/table/role-mapping table/
18:26:09 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
18:26:21 <chaals> Rich: If we put this in HTML5 spec, then change ARIA in v2, will that create a problem down the road?
18:26:28 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:26:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:26:34 <chaals> ... e.g. changingthe processing rules to deal with custom roles
18:26:43 <chaals> AvK: Will the change be compatible
18:26:57 <chaals> Rich: Not clear. How would we handle sub-roles available in the mac platform?
18:27:06 <chaals> Cyns: Haven't started discussion on that
18:27:16 <chaals> AvK: If changes are made, we change the specs.
18:27:40 <chaals> Ted: If HTML.next changes to be less restrictive than HTML5 I don't see a problem. If you make an incompatible change, that can be a problem.
18:27:53 <chaals> Rich: Don't think there is an issue today. But changing HTML5 is harder.
18:28:05 <chaals> AvK: Presumably implementation guide needs to be stable to be referenced.
18:28:07 <chaals> q+
18:28:18 <mjs> q+
18:28:24 <chaals> ... if change is incompatible you might have an adoption problem because it would break usage.
18:28:45 <chaals> ... if user agents will change anyway, the spec can be updated too. We have done that with DOM specs...
18:28:57 <chaals> s/DOM/eg DOM/
18:29:02 <MikeSmith> q?
18:29:08 <chaals> ack me
18:29:15 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
18:29:28 <MikeSmith> chaals: key question is, some specs are easier and faster to update than others
18:29:39 <MikeSmith> ... HTML has shown itself to be relatively slow to update
18:29:51 <MikeSmith> ... and to be honest ARIA has been slow also
18:30:06 <MikeSmith> ... but ARIA will likely be updated sooner than HTML
18:30:08 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
18:30:10 <mjs> ack mjs
18:30:13 <chaals> scribe: chaals
18:30:15 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
18:30:58 <hober> q+
18:31:03 <chaals> mjs: might make sense for role to be in ARIA rather than host, but ARIA chose not to do that - doesn't give a sufficeint definition of how role works. That option has previously not been taken.
18:31:20 <chaals> s/than HTML/than HTML - on the other hand, more people might read HTML.../
18:31:41 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
18:31:43 <chaals> mjs: not sure which issue we are discussing. Let's try getting through the 6 issues listed here and add new questions.
18:31:45 <hober> q-
18:32:14 <odinho> s/ach richardschwerdtfe//
18:32:21 <MikeSmith> -> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/wai-aria-objection (some context for the record) "My Formal Objection to WAI-ARIA"
18:32:34 <chaals> rich: want to make people aware that aria will be used in other host languages like SVG. If we define the processing differently in different host languages that could be problematic - might be easier to fix the issues with definition of processing in the aria implementation guide
18:32:48 <chaals> ... no issue with ted's text, worried about looking forward.
18:33:05 <chaals> mjs: First issue - should role be single token or list of tokens? Ted isn't sure we disagree.
18:33:13 <chaals> Ted: It's a list in both proposals.
18:33:23 <chaals> Cyns: Was Hixie's critique listing a single one?
18:33:37 <chaals> Ted: That isn't on the table, so we don't need to discuss further
18:34:01 <tantek> I'd prefer it was defined similar to other tokenlists, like 'class' and 'rel' attributes.
18:34:03 <chaals> RESOLUTION: we have lists of tokens
18:34:12 <tantek> we don't need a new type of tokenlist
18:34:19 <chaals> mjs: second - clarifying forward compatibility.
18:34:20 <MichaelC> ack me
18:34:38 <plh> zakim, unmute Cooper
18:34:38 <Zakim> Cooper should no longer be muted
18:34:40 <mjs> MichaelC: can you expand on the "clarifying forward compatibility" issue?
18:34:55 <tantek> thanks hober
18:34:57 <chaals> s/MichaelC: can you expand on the "clarifying forward compatibility" issue?//
18:35:01 <chaals> s/thanks hober//
18:35:07 <tantek> btw, how can things be different in SVG? Isn't SVG just part of HTML now?
18:35:36 <chaals> MC: Fprward compat model. You can provide multiple roles - newer better one first, followed by old one that is beter known. UA takes the first role it recognises.
18:35:42 <plh> zakim, Cooper is really MichaelC
18:35:42 <Zakim> +MichaelC; got it
18:35:44 <shepazu> tantek, what does that mean, functionally?
18:35:57 <chaals> ... think that was not clear enough in the change proposal that led ot people raising questions. Do we agree with that model, and how can we clarify?
18:35:59 <anne> fwiw, using RESOLUTION seems wrong, as we can't resolve anything at a F2F
18:36:06 <chaals> Ted: Both proposals on the table are saying the same thing.
18:36:09 <tantek> regarding the what if 'role' was defined differently in HTML and SVG - I don't see how that's possible.
18:36:32 <chaals> [anne, I know. But recording that at least the people at the meeting agreed on something seems helpful for finding out what happened when reading two days of minutes.]
18:36:46 <chaals> Ted: non-abstract roles get skipped... otherwise I think we agree.
18:36:55 <shepazu> (tantek, I agree that that doesn't seem like the right way to frame it, but there are likely to be different role values for SVG than HTML)
18:37:03 <chaals> mjs: Do you agree with ted's charcacterisation that we have the same model?
18:37:17 <chaals> ... (modulo clarifying that abtracgt roles don't get picked up)?
18:37:30 <chaals> s/skipped/skipped in my change proposal/
18:37:30 <tantek> shepazu - I think it's best for web authors if the 'role' attribute in SVG works just like it does in HTML. similar to 'class' etc.
18:37:33 <shepazu> s/charcacterisation/characterization/
18:38:05 <chaals> MC: Yes. This issue answer Ian's critique.
18:38:11 <chaals> AvK: Are implementations doing this?
18:38:19 <chaals> s/this/processing this way/
18:38:25 <odinho> s/abtracgt/abstract/
18:38:31 <shepazu> (tantek, the processing and such, yes, but a graphics language needs different roles than a text language)
18:38:32 <chaals> Rich: believe they take the first recognised non-abstract role.
18:38:46 <chaals> mjs: So answer seems to be "yes, implementations do this".
18:39:06 <chaals> mjs: So second issue seems to have agreement in intent. Anyone disagree with that model?
18:39:19 <tantek> shepazu, I can see adding more roles - but that's up to the ARIA spec IMHO, not SVG. The abstract definition of the 'role' attribute as a holder of such values should be the same in SVG as it is in HTML.
18:39:27 <chaals> RESOLUTION: Processing is to take the first recognised non-abstract role.
18:39:39 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-wg
18:39:40 <tantek> "first"? so it's not a list not a set?
18:39:40 <chaals> mjs: Third issue sounds like a restatement of the issue we just discussed.
18:39:49 <tantek> er, is 'role' a list not a set then?
18:39:49 <shepazu> (tantek, I agree that role should work just as in HTML)
18:39:59 <chaals> MC: I think the first three issues I raised are addressed now.
18:40:10 <tantek> so 'role' is unlike 'class' and 'rel' then, which are *unordered* sets of values.
18:40:33 <chaals> mjs: Fourth - disallowing properties where they are not appropriate, or make processing model ignore them where they are not relevant.
18:40:56 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
18:41:04 <chaals> MC: Easier to say "all properties can be used, but they are not recognised if irrelevant". Would be a big task to take the alternative and document where they cannot be used.
18:41:06 <chaals> q+
18:41:35 <chaals> Ted: There is a distinction between processing and author-conformance requirements. Would prefer leaving author confromance to aria spec to define.
18:41:44 <chaals> mjs: Do the proposals defer this point as written?
18:42:09 <chaals> Ted: MC proposal has text where each properties is defined and text saying where they an be used.
18:42:15 <plh> ack rich
18:42:42 <chaals> rich: I think HTML5 spec is clear on where you can apply roles or not. Tried in user agent impl guide not to do the error correct - leave it to authoring to deal with that.
18:43:24 <chaals> ... ie if checkbox is not allowed on scrollbars, it is flagged as non-conforming, and test tools should flag those as errors. UA should not try to repair them.
18:43:38 <chaals> mjs: Think this is different to what we are discussing.
18:44:05 <chaals> ... do you mean if a role is specified that doesn't fit, and ted/MC were discussing what happens when state/properties are applied in cases they should not be relevant.
18:44:07 <chaals> q?
18:44:36 <chaals> rich: don't want the browser to have to solve the problem where things are added in the wrong place.
18:44:53 <chaals> ted: We are reflecting what the author wrote. It would be weird to have markup that did not get to the DOM.
18:44:54 <mjs> q+
18:44:58 <chaals> ack me
18:44:59 <mjs> ack chaals 
18:45:26 <MichaelC> q+ to say the reason I raise this is the HTML spec currently documents that role can't be used on certain elements, or can only be used with certain values; while ARIA says some states and properties can only be used with certain roles and some can be used on any elements; those two make a complicated interaction that I don't know whether to document or say "implement the intersection of the...
18:45:27 <MichaelC> ...two specs"
18:46:37 <mjs> ack mjs 
18:47:01 <chaals> CMN: THink we need to define in the processing model that erro correction does get done in the browser - and then make it clear which things get corrected where.
18:47:12 <chaals> mjs: Not sure what the specific difference is between the proposals
18:47:18 <chaals> Ted: nor am I
18:47:20 <mjs> ack MichaelC 
18:47:20 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say the reason I raise this is the HTML spec currently documents that role can't be used on certain elements, or can only be used with certain values; while
18:47:24 <Zakim> ... ARIA says some states and properties can only be used with certain roles and some can be used on any elements; those two make a complicated interaction that I don't know
18:47:24 <Zakim> ... whether to document or say "implement the intersection of the...
18:47:31 <odinho> s/...two specs"//
18:47:58 <J_Voracek> J_Voracek has joined #html-wg
18:48:01 <J_Voracek>  
18:48:21 <chaals> MC: Do we want to document the intersection and specify it, or point to the two sets of rules and tell implementors to figure it out?
18:48:23 <J_Voracek> J_Voracek has joined #html-wg
18:48:30 <chaals> q+ to say please specify it.
18:48:43 <chaals> mjs: Is there a part of the proposal that addresses this question?
18:49:12 <chaals> MC: My proposal doesn't address that question. I think failure to address it led to concern - don't know if they wanted more or less...
18:49:37 <chaals> mjs: MC is suggesting we may want to define something that neither proposal does. That isn't a point of difference, it is a separate question to be decided.
18:49:41 <chaals> q-
18:49:53 <chaals> Ted: sure
18:50:12 <chaals> [general agreement that we aren't facing a disagreement to resolve]
18:50:26 <chaals> mjs: Should aria 'stuff' be defined in HTML or in ARIA specs?
18:51:21 <chaals> MC: In my proposal I defined all state and property attributes. Concern was that redefining these in HTML leadas to duplication -> error. This is auto-generated so should be possible to keep in synch. Agree that duplication is potentially problematic.
18:51:45 <chaals> ... Did it because I think HTML needs to be clear what is happening. Countr-proposal was where math/svg in HTML just defers to those specs.
18:51:48 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
18:52:07 <chaals> ... difference is that ARIA doesn't have a root element to anchor the definition from. But that might not matter - should it be removed?
18:52:11 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
18:52:21 <shepazu> q+
18:52:49 <chaals> Ted: Think the ARIA documents define what the properties mean and how to use them. duplicating that is a potential source of synchronisation error later - and at minimum introduces a maintenance cost that I don't thnk we need to incur.
18:53:09 <chaals> ... you already have to read the referenced specs to implenent HTML so not sure what is different here.
18:53:12 <mjs> ach richardschwerdtfe 
18:53:16 <mjs> ack richardschwerdtfe 
18:53:36 <chaals> rich: THink the ARIA spec should define values for role, state, property. We also have to address other host languages. So I agree with Ted.
18:53:49 <chaals> ... anything we do needs to be coordinated anyway with other hosts.
18:54:01 <tantek> shouldn't defining 'role' be similar to the definition for the 'style' attribute between HTML and the CSS 'style' attribute spec?
18:54:11 <MichaelC> q+ to say I was also concerned about impacts of the two technologies evolving on different timelines; that was discussed earlier today but couldn't follow well
18:54:17 <chaals> ... HTML should define restrictions it makes specifically to HTML, if necessary.
18:54:18 <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/
18:54:22 <mjs> ack shepazu 
18:54:50 <tantek> Thanks chaals - I was hoping we were saying similar things but I wasn't sure.
18:55:00 <tantek> and I wanted to provide a concrete existing example (perhaps to mimic)
18:55:07 <chaals> shepazu: What do people think would be different between svg and html in hosting aria. SVG does not want to redefine processing or rules from ARIA if we can get away with it. There are different roles required, but don't think there would be a difference in processing.
18:55:15 <mjs> ack MichaelC 
18:55:15 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I was also concerned about impacts of the two technologies evolving on different timelines; that was discussed earlier today but couldn't follow well
18:55:15 <chaals> rich: Think we are in violent agreement.
18:55:56 <chaals> MC: Not sure what it means for HTML5 conformance if ARIA evolves on a different timeline. Whatever direction we go seems OK though.
18:56:13 <chaals> mjs: Seems general sense of the room is to delegate the definitions to ARIA by reference, rather than copy them in.
18:56:14 <tantek> for the HTML5 definition of the 'style' attribute see: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/global-attributes.html#the-style-attribute which links to http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/ for what goes into the attribute (complete syntax of it).
18:56:42 <chaals> RESOLUTION: leave the definitions in the ARIA spec and reference them from HTML
18:56:55 <tantek> perhaps entire syntax of 'role' attribute must be defined in the ARIA spec, and have it defined by reference in HTML5.
18:57:11 <chaals> mjs: What processing should be defined in HTML, what should be defined by ARIA?
18:57:23 <anne> tantek: as long as they use the same definition of space characters
18:57:36 <tantek> anne - agreed
18:57:47 <chaals> MC: Intended to provide informative explanation of what is define in user agent guide, but reference that for normative requirement. I think that was confusing.
18:57:51 <tantek> anne - is there any such issue of space characters in CSS style attr?
18:58:07 <chaals> ... how much should be included even if only in an informative manner (if any).
18:58:31 <anne> tantek: no because that takes CSS
18:58:36 <chaals> Ted: Proposal defines processing for role, because it wasn't available directly from ARIA. For same reason as before, I would rather have this defined in ARIA spec.
18:58:48 <mjs> q?
18:59:03 <chaals> [no further comment]
18:59:11 <tantek> anne, if ARIA normatively references HTML for definition of space characters, would that be sufficient?
18:59:53 <chaals> mjs: If proposals are aligned, except where ted did it different consensus follows ted, it sounds like you guys could align a single proposal.
19:00:02 <chaals> ... MC, Ted, can you do that?
19:00:06 <chaals> Ted: Sure...
19:00:24 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #html-wg
19:00:35 <anne> tantek: it's fine if they copy it
19:00:50 <chaals> ACTION: Ted to outline a timeline for producing an aligned change proposal to address ISSUEE-199. Due in 2 weeks
19:00:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Ted
19:00:57 <tantek> ok - I just figure by reference would have less chance of drift over time.
19:01:12 <anne> tantek: but I guess you really want to reuse the definition of space-separated attribute values (forgot the name of that)
19:01:13 <chaals> [adjourned for lunch: 1 hour]
19:01:22 <tantek> also by reference avoids temptation to tweak the definition for "editorial" reasons which end up being functional.
19:01:55 <tantek> anne - right
19:02:09 <chaals> trackbot, who is hober?
19:02:09 <trackbot> Sorry, chaals, I don't understand 'trackbot, who is hober?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
19:02:19 <Clarke> If I drop the phone, will I be able to reconnect after lunch?
19:02:27 <plh> yes, you should be
19:02:29 <eliot> what are you doing?
19:02:34 <eliot> lunch?
19:02:36 <plh> yes
19:02:38 <eliot> ok
19:02:45 <Zakim> -MichaelC
19:02:47 <Zakim> -eliot
19:02:51 <chaals> trackbot, status?
19:02:52 <Zakim> -Clarke
19:03:16 <odinho> s/yes, you should be//
19:03:27 <odinho> s/what are you doing?//
19:03:37 <odinho> s/lunch?//
19:03:44 <odinho> s/yes//
19:03:50 <odinho> s/ok//
19:04:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html odinho
19:11:39 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #html-wg
19:13:56 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
19:14:21 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
19:21:59 <richardschwerdt-1> richardschwerdt-1 has joined #html-wg
19:23:01 <drublic> drublic has joined #html-wg
19:39:30 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #html-wg
19:53:37 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-wg
19:58:03 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
20:06:32 <timeless> timeless has joined #html-wg
20:06:41 <timeless> Scribe: Josh_Soref
20:06:46 <timeless> scribenick: timeless 
20:06:58 <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
20:07:03 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-wg
20:07:18 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-wg
20:07:37 <glenn> glenn has joined #html-wg
20:07:39 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
20:07:47 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
20:08:30 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-wg
20:08:51 <timeless> Topic: Canvas Hit Testing
20:09:16 <timeless> Zakim, pointer?
20:09:16 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timeless.
20:09:21 <timeless> Zakim, what is this?
20:09:21 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timeless.
20:09:22 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
20:09:27 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:09:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F
20:09:28 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
20:09:37 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #html-wg
20:09:42 <timeless> Zakim, Josh_Soref has joined F2F
20:09:42 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Josh_Soref'
20:09:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:09:51 <eliot> zakim, microsoft is me
20:09:51 <Zakim> +eliot; got it
20:09:51 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
20:10:14 <eliot> zakim, mute me
20:10:14 <Zakim> eliot should now be muted
20:10:33 <hiroki> hiroki has joined #html-wg
20:10:46 <timeless> frankolivier: we have two proposals
20:10:49 <timeless> ... very close
20:10:52 <timeless> ... if we combine the two
20:11:04 <timeless> ... i think we'll have something that solves one of the accessibility proposals for <canvas>
20:11:11 <timeless> ... in both proposals, there's something about defining a path
20:11:20 <timeless> ... in one it's an element in the canvas
20:11:31 <timeless> ... in the other, it could be in the DOM, or a lightweight object
20:11:36 <timeless> ... the other spec text
20:11:40 <Russell_Berkoff> Russell_Berkoff has joined #html-wg
20:11:43 <timeless> ... that's been proposed for <canvas>
20:11:50 <timeless> ... don't solve accessibility issues
20:11:55 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-wg
20:11:55 <timeless> ... i'd like to address them later
20:11:57 <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
20:12:00 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:12:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:12:19 <timeless> hober: it's true that the spec changes in my proposal cover more UCs than just accessibility needs
20:12:25 <timeless> ... in this case
20:12:29 <timeless> ... that's a good thing
20:12:34 <magnus> magnus has joined #html-wg
20:12:45 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-wg
20:12:49 <timeless> ... the accessibility requirements can be addressed with requirements that can be used for other things as well
20:13:13 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: hober, can you walk us through the proposed changes?
20:13:32 <timeless> hober: sure, let me pull up the diffs
20:13:33 <anne> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html
20:14:09 <timeless> s|http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html|-> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html Canvas v5 API additions|
20:14:14 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:14:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
20:14:45 <timeless> hober: the proposed changes
20:14:49 <timeless> ... allow drawing elipses
20:14:53 <timeless> ... paths
20:14:56 <timeless> ... text alignment paths
20:15:08 <timeless> ... and define a cursor
20:15:14 <timeless> ... for each accessible region
20:15:17 <timeless> ... new text metrics
20:15:36 <timeless> ... Hixie's email covers more changes than in my proposal
20:16:00 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: there was this measure-text piece
20:16:03 <timeless> ... how does that fit in?
20:16:54 <timeless> hober: you are using this for canvas control
20:16:58 <timeless> ... for some complex effect
20:17:05 <timeless> ... and have something corresponding to a label
20:17:15 <timeless> ... being able to make the area around that text clickable
20:17:20 <timeless> ... easily requires metrics access
20:17:30 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: so it's for the purpose of calculating the text region
20:17:36 <timeless> frankolivier: are there two separate issues
20:17:39 <timeless> ... 1. UI controls
20:17:44 <timeless> ... 2. defining text
20:17:54 <timeless> anne: with text metrics, there's already api
20:17:58 <timeless> ... these are additions
20:18:12 <timeless> ... for graphics applications, since you don't always know which font is going to be used
20:18:18 <timeless> ... some things will need that information
20:18:25 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: so this is more than just hit-testing
20:18:30 <Zakim> +??P3
20:18:36 <timeless> anne: Hixie looked at <canvas> feedback over the last 3 years
20:18:44 <Clarke> zakim, ??P3 is me
20:18:44 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
20:18:46 <timeless> ... and added all the things that people were requesting with good use cases
20:19:12 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:19:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, eliot (muted), Clarke
20:19:25 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: when we add hit region
20:19:32 <timeless> ... there's additional parameters that were added
20:19:38 <timeless> ... tied to lightweight JSON objects
20:19:41 <timeless> ... for accessibility
20:19:49 <Clarke> zakim, mute me
20:19:49 <Zakim> Clarke should now be muted
20:19:50 <timeless> ... if you have these things, i need to have a test tool
20:19:59 <timeless> ... analyzing for accessibility find this
20:20:06 <timeless> ... and it needs to be mappable to the api
20:20:37 <timeless> hober: for accessibility
20:20:42 <timeless> ... you'd listen for the API call
20:20:49 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these are browser plugins that do this
20:20:53 <timeless> ... how do you overload this?
20:21:01 <timeless> anne: in JS you can overload anything
20:21:08 <timeless> ... and a browser extension can do this
20:21:19 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these things are lightweight
20:21:25 <timeless> ... and they might belong to the DOM?
20:21:29 <timeless> hober: there are two things
20:21:32 <timeless> ... elements themselves
20:21:40 <timeless> ... or a description of a javascript object
20:21:49 <timeless> ... in terms of wiring up to the Accessibility Tree
20:21:53 <timeless> ... that could be done by the UA
20:22:01 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
20:22:22 <timeless> ... if one hit region is contained in another
20:22:27 <timeless> ... that could get complicated
20:22:37 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: how do you make those elements keyboard navigable?
20:22:40 <timeless> anne: the browser does that
20:22:47 <timeless> ... hit regions would be added to focus order
20:23:06 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it's not just fully defined then?
20:23:12 <timeless> hober: i'm sure the editor would like to hear
20:23:27 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these elements are not in the DOM?
20:23:31 <timeless> ... they can't take properties
20:23:36 <timeless> ... like Role/Label
20:23:51 <timeless> hober: not if they need aria-properties
20:24:03 <timeless> cyns: can you help me understand the value of these?
20:24:11 <timeless> hober: it's difficult to discretely identify
20:24:16 <timeless> ... suppose you have a <canvas>
20:24:22 <timeless> ... emulating a Pitri dish
20:24:31 <timeless> ... clicking on the Canvas drops a complex reagent
20:24:43 <timeless> ... there might not a be a point on the canvas corresponding to a discrete object
20:24:46 <timeless> ... you might want hit regions
20:24:55 <timeless> ... but it would be difficult to describe in a dom tree
20:25:02 <timeless> ... saying "that's a div'ish thing"
20:25:07 <timeless> ... "now there's two blobs"
20:25:21 <timeless> ... the reason we use it, is because there isn't a better option
20:25:30 <timeless> cyns: let's treat div as a rectangle
20:25:42 <timeless> ... it seems like you could have divs that transcribe the areas
20:25:49 <timeless> ... why are these JSON objects better?
20:25:53 <timeless> hober: they're much smaller
20:25:59 <timeless> ... let's say you had a 2000x2000 canvas
20:26:07 <timeless> ... using 2000 * 2000 div elements
20:26:12 <timeless> ... would be bad
20:26:20 <timeless> ... it isn't reasonable to ask them to use the dom
20:26:26 <timeless> ... why use the canvas?
20:26:33 <timeless> cyns: most people seem to be using it because it's trendy
20:26:38 <timeless> hober: frankolivier had a great example
20:26:48 <timeless> ...  using a distinct canvas object per word in a string of text
20:26:54 <timeless> ... our answer should be  "don't do that"
20:27:09 <timeless> frankolivier: tying every accessible object onto the dom is going to be very expensive
20:27:14 <timeless> ... is that the more common or the less common?
20:27:21 <timeless> hober: fortunately, this proposal addresses both
20:27:25 <timeless> ... i don't know, let's find out
20:27:30 <chaals> q+ mjs
20:27:30 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
20:27:34 <timeless> anne: if you have an element based thing, you should use svg
20:27:52 <timeless> frankolivier: tying those elements to a dot is a bit much
20:27:59 <timeless> ... but there will be more examples of tying to a checkbox
20:28:09 <timeless> hober: i'm not particularly interested in counting
20:28:13 <timeless> ack mj
20:28:23 <timeless> ack mjs
20:28:24 <chaals> q+ to say I think ew should be caring about the data that motivates the use cases 
20:28:33 <timeless> mjs: there's another purpose to lightweight hit regions
20:28:49 <timeless> ... you could associate multiple hit regions to a single element and distinguish between them
20:28:59 <timeless> ... similar to a ComboBox
20:29:10 <timeless> ... this is supported by AddHitRegion
20:29:15 <timeless> ... but not supported by the other proposal
20:29:24 <timeless> frankolivier: i think we agree on needing to solve this problem
20:29:35 <timeless> ... i don't think we see a big problem to lightweight elements
20:29:44 <timeless> ... i think it'd be good to combine the change proposals
20:29:51 <timeless> hober: does my proposal not address everything
20:30:00 <timeless> frankolivier: i think keyboard navigation, or overlapping hit regions
20:30:06 <timeless> ... but if you combine the two...
20:30:11 <timeless> hober: can we take that offline and do that
20:30:19 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: where in the proposal do you address clearing
20:30:24 <timeless> ... paths
20:30:34 <timeless> ... talking w/ Devs @ SXSW
20:30:42 <timeless> ... they need to be able to remove them
20:30:56 <chaals> q-
20:32:20 <hober> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#clear-regions-that-cover-the-pixels
20:32:51 <timeless> Chair: Sam Ruby
20:32:54 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:32:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:33:04 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it describes the process
20:33:08 <timeless> ... is there a method that does it?
20:33:15 <timeless> hober: addHitRegion -- step 18
20:34:21 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: addHitRegion, clearRect are the "3 ways"?
20:34:25 <timeless> hober: off by one error
20:34:32 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: you put a new path
20:34:37 <timeless> ... you can put an empty path to remove it?
20:34:45 <timeless> frankolivier: how do you store the hit regions?
20:34:51 <timeless> hober: there's a concept of a hit region list
20:35:02 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: lightweight paths
20:35:08 <timeless> ... do you have text associated with the objects?
20:35:30 <timeless> hober: just role and label
20:35:51 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: is the label rendered?
20:35:54 <timeless> hober: no
20:36:03 <timeless> shepazu: it's like alt
20:36:49 <timeless> shepazu: any visible rendered text
20:37:15 <timeless> ... would still be rendered through the "text api"
20:37:38 <timeless> frankolivier: what about ATs that go to the DOM itself?
20:37:46 <timeless> s/frankolivier/richardschwerdtfe/
20:38:12 <timeless> ... for Firefox, AAs go to the AT tree
20:38:21 <timeless> ... but for IE to be backwards compat, they go to the DOM
20:38:26 <timeless> s/ATs/AAs/
20:38:35 <timeless> frankolivier: we might have to tell the AAs to go to the AT
20:38:46 <timeless> ... do you have concern about aria roles for lightweight objects?
20:38:57 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i'm concerned that we can't put other properties beside label
20:39:01 <timeless> ... if we start working on SVG
20:39:08 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-wg
20:39:11 <timeless> ... and we start introducing new properties pertinent to graphics
20:39:20 <timeless> ... a drawing is a drawing
20:39:45 <timeless> hober: this proposal allows you to use the DOM elements
20:40:02 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why don't we add that capability when we merge it?
20:40:13 <timeless> mjs: in the whatwg spec
20:40:23 <timeless> ... HitRegion takes a dictionary
20:40:29 <timeless> ... so you could add more properties
20:41:08 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: aside from ellipses, text, and paths
20:41:20 <timeless> ... does anyone want to talk about them?
20:41:33 <timeless> hober: there have been many changes relevant to the canvas part of the spec
20:41:41 <timeless> ... the revisions in my detailed proposal
20:41:45 <timeless> ... are limited to this
20:42:05 <timeless> paulc: they were added in the same week
20:42:19 <timeless> ... but there was a distinct dividing line
20:42:44 <timeless> frankolivier: i think it would be worthwhile to focus on the Accessibility features first
20:42:51 <timeless> sam: it sounds like everyone agrees
20:42:56 <timeless> ... i haven't heard objections
20:43:08 <timeless> paulc: i can find you another room
20:43:39 <timeless> frankolivier: i can suggest edits to the other change proposal
20:43:44 <timeless> hober: just go change it
20:43:52 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i can work w/ frankolivier on it next week
20:43:59 <timeless> sam: hober can watch it
20:44:07 <timeless> ... and work on it in his spare time
20:44:16 <timeless> ... are we done with this topic, for now, at least?
20:44:21 <timeless> [ RESOLVED ]
20:44:45 <timeless> trackbot, issue-194?
20:44:45 <trackbot> Sorry, timeless, I don't understand 'trackbot, issue-194?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
20:44:59 <timeless> issue-194?
20:44:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
20:44:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
20:45:02 <timeless> issue-183?
20:45:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
20:45:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
20:45:03 <timeless> issue-184?
20:45:03 <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
20:45:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
20:45:31 <timeless> sam: i know tantek wanted time for time+data
20:45:36 <timeless> ... any other interest
20:45:50 <timeless> adrianba: you, tantek, were proposing rather than a specific topic of time+data
20:46:04 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #html-wg
20:46:05 <timeless> ... but "how do we decide when we work on a new element?"
20:46:15 <timeless> tantek_: it might be useful to split the discussion into two pieces
20:46:17 <timeless> ... time+data
20:46:24 <timeless> ... and then methodology for HTML.next
20:46:29 <timeless> ... if that's acceptable
20:46:32 <timeless> adrianba: either way works
20:48:02 <timeless> i/i know tantek/Topic: Time and Data element/
20:48:22 <timeless> tantek_: this is a follow on 
20:48:26 <timeless> ... for an online discussion
20:48:30 <timeless> ... it came up @TPAC
20:48:35 <timeless> ... we reached a consensus in the room
20:48:39 <timeless> ... which was fairly solid
20:48:49 <timeless> ... and then we made progresssome made their way through
20:48:49 <vimeo_joe> vimeo_joe has joined #html-wg
20:48:58 <timeless> s/progresssome made their way through/progress/
20:49:02 <timeless> ... some made their way through
20:49:07 <timeless> ... and some are working their way through
20:49:27 <timeless> ... the counter proposal to drop the time element
20:49:37 <timeless> ... and instead enhance the data element with a time attribute
20:49:42 <timeless> ... which i think is harder to use
20:49:43 <vimeo_joe> vimeo_joe has joined #html-wg
20:49:54 <timeless> sam: i thought there was a CfC to accept the time element
20:50:00 <timeless> tantek_: there was, and it was accepted
20:50:12 <timeless> sam: there was a counter proposal to add to data
20:50:18 <vimeo_joe> vimeo_joe has joined #html-wg
20:50:23 <timeless> ... but it didn't have sufficient justification put forward
20:50:26 <timeless> ... and i haven't seen that
20:50:29 <timeless> tantek_: ok
20:50:36 <timeless> ... i'd like to propose, as a way of moving forward
20:50:46 <timeless> ... is that the group decide that adding the time-type to data is a new feature
20:50:55 <timeless> ... and we don't add it to html5
20:51:04 <timeless> sam: i'm reticent to make a decision today in this room
20:51:10 <timeless> ... STRAW PROPOSAL
20:51:37 <timeless> ... is that if there was a type= attribute added to the <data> element, it would be done post HTML5
20:51:51 <timeless> ... STRAW POLL: is there anyone in the room who would object to that?
20:51:58 <timeless> paulc: typically, when you design something like this
20:52:02 <timeless> ... what's the default value
20:52:15 <timeless> ... in the case you don't have the attribute and it doesn't occur
20:52:31 <timeless> ... what's the equivalent without a value?
20:52:45 <timeless> mjs: i don't think the proposal makes it clear
20:52:54 <timeless> paulc: looking into the future
20:53:02 <timeless> ... what would it do if it's optional
20:53:09 <timeless> mjs: i'm saying the person isn't in the room
20:53:23 <timeless> sam: if this type attribute were added and no one in the room is advocating
20:53:30 <timeless> ... how would we address it?
20:53:35 <timeless> ... i understand your point
20:53:43 <timeless> ... people who propose such things should define such things
20:53:59 <timeless> ... we as cochairs did indicate it was deficient
20:54:05 <timeless> ... i don't believe we've timed it out yet
20:54:18 <timeless> s/your/your, paulc's,/
20:54:24 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:54:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
20:54:54 <timeless> paulc: you sent your proposal on the 18th
20:55:33 <timeless> sam: we accepted tantek_'s proposal for data + time
20:55:46 <timeless> ... there are remaining sub proposals that haven't made coherent arguments
20:56:06 <timeless> tantek_: i'm claiming the proposals are feature additions that we can postpone
20:56:15 <timeless> paulc: the change proposal was Mar 27
20:56:29 <timeless> ... "enhance the data element with a type system proposal"
20:57:04 <timeless> ... this hasn't been touched since Feb 9
20:57:15 <timeless> sam: in that case, we should mark as defered
20:57:31 <timeless> ... it looks like it's quite likely we have consensus on 183 and 184
20:57:43 <timeless> tantek_: and the broader discussion we can have in HTML.next
20:58:07 <timeless> sam: we're missing a participant on 194
20:58:08 <timeless> cyns: i haven't reached him
20:58:21 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #html-wg
20:58:38 <timeless> JF: we'd like to get Shawn Hayes, Microsoft, to dial in to join us
20:58:43 <timeless> ... if we postpone to tomorrow
20:58:49 <timeless> paulc: where's he based?
20:58:55 <timeless> JF: UK
20:59:03 <adrianba> s/Shawn/Sean/
20:59:06 <timeless> paulc: so proposing to do this now was a bad idea
20:59:12 <timeless> ... we should do this @9am tomorrow
20:59:30 <timeless> eric_carlson: I won't be here tomorrow
20:59:53 <timeless> tantek_: on the previous subject
20:59:55 <timeless> ISSUE-185?
20:59:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-185 -- Drop the pubdate attribute -- open
20:59:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/185
21:00:02 <timeless> tantek_: ... drop the pubdata attribute
21:00:46 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
21:02:00 <nesta_> nesta_ has joined #html-wg
21:02:40 <timeless> tantek_: the summary of the proposal
21:02:43 <timeless> ... is we can drop pubdata
21:02:48 <timeless> s/pubdata/pubdate/
21:02:56 <timeless> ... because it lacks nontrivial use outside of hatom usage
21:03:03 <timeless> ... which provides a superset of the functionality
21:03:17 <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0738.html
21:03:18 <timeless> i/previous subject/Topic: Pubdate/
21:03:39 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
21:03:57 <timeless> paulc: you, sam, on tantek_ 's proposal
21:04:33 <timeless> tantek_: wordpress templates use in hatom
21:04:41 <timeless> sam: it's not in dispute that it's used
21:05:14 <timeless> sam: we could update the change proposal and say it's defficient
21:05:25 <timeless> ... or do a survey
21:05:37 <timeless> ... if you point out that
21:05:42 <timeless> ... it's not in dispute that it's in use
21:05:47 <timeless> ... but it's in dispute that it's necessary
21:05:55 <timeless> tantek_: the other proposal is to add a MODDATE attribute
21:06:06 <timeless> ... and i claim that's a new feature and say that's for HTML.next
21:06:14 <timeless> sam: all valid things to put in a survey
21:06:24 <timeless> ... so if it becomes a formal objection, we can point to the survey
21:06:44 <timeless> ... "everyone had an opportunity to comment"
21:06:58 <timeless> paulc: i'm suggesting that the chair's review of the revised change proposal
21:07:07 <timeless> ... will ask you to review that additional change proposal
21:07:23 <timeless> ... if we get that out of the way, it's very likely that if the review doesn't turn up anything else
21:07:30 <timeless> ... we can go to survey ASAP
21:07:37 <timeless> ISSUE-194?
21:07:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
21:07:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
21:07:51 <timeless> Topic: Transcript with Audio/Video Element - Part 1
21:08:27 <timeless> paulc: JF sent a link
21:08:34 <timeless> ... and there was a request for a change proposal update
21:08:35 <paulc> Review of ISSUE-194: As such, we will not accept the @transcript proposal until it is updated to contain a set of edit instructions, specific enough that they can be applied without ambiguity, and contains answers to the questions posed in the counter change proposal.
21:08:38 <timeless> JF: I have not done that
21:08:54 <timeless> ... we require a programmatic means of finding an associable element
21:08:59 <timeless> ... one is an attribute
21:09:05 <timeless> ... the other is a no change proposal
21:09:11 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
21:09:25 <timeless> ... the other proposal is to defer to HTML.next
21:09:29 <timeless> ... that's a bit of a non-starter
21:09:39 <timeless> ... it leaves a gaping hole from the Accessibility perspective
21:09:53 <timeless> ... hober had done a review of a couple of different patterns
21:10:02 <timeless> ... we looked at the patterns and found a couple that were viable/workable for us
21:10:10 <timeless> ... if we could talk them through/find a common ground
21:10:17 <timeless> ... i'd rather get the engineers involved a little more
21:10:32 <paulc> John:  Could we look at the patterns in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/NoChange and discuss if there is a solution we can agree on.
21:10:33 <timeless> janina: ...
21:11:17 <timeless> [ Break ]
21:11:22 <eliot> thank you
21:11:28 <Zakim> -eliot
21:12:20 <f2f> f2f has left #html-wg
21:16:16 <paulc2> paulc2 has joined #html-wg
21:19:10 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
21:31:02 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #html-wg
21:31:59 <tantek_> rubys, paulc, othermaciej, as requested, I've updated my change proposal for issue 185 - http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/drop_pubdate - to rebut "keep pubdate / add moddate".
21:34:23 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
21:34:57 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-wg
21:35:12 <glenn> glenn has joined #html-wg
21:35:17 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
21:35:53 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-wg
21:42:07 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
21:42:48 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
21:45:09 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-wg
21:45:26 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-wg
21:45:30 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
21:48:50 <glenn> Topic: Issue-194
21:48:53 <glenn> ISSUE-194?
21:48:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
21:48:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
21:49:04 <glenn> go ahead
21:49:16 <timeless> JF: hober did a good review of different patterns
21:49:20 <timeless> s/go ahead//
21:49:28 <timeless> ... and the accessibility TF looked through it
21:49:31 <timeless> ... and was thrilled
21:49:39 <timeless> ... a half dozen or so that would meet our User Requirements
21:49:41 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
21:49:42 <paulc> Alternatives in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/NoChange
21:49:45 <timeless> ... the one we're leaning toward
21:49:46 <hober> research in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-194/Research
21:49:49 <timeless> ... is the <track> element
21:49:52 <timeless> ... an untimed file
21:49:53 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
21:49:57 <timeless> ... there were a couple of others
21:50:04 <timeless> ... using an indirect transcript reference
21:50:12 <timeless> ... or reuse the for/rel attributes
21:50:23 <timeless> sam: if you've got your preference, let's start with that one
21:50:32 <timeless> JF: the preference is to reuse the <track> element
21:50:37 <timeless> ... it can be used for CC and subtitles
21:50:43 <timeless> ... and subtitles in multiple languages
21:50:52 <timeless> ... although to my knowledge we don't have an implementation now
21:50:59 <timeless> ... that would produce a menu to choose a caption they want
21:51:08 <timeless> ... so the user would be in control
21:51:13 <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research
21:51:18 <timeless> ... adding a transcript in the menu items would be an elegant UI pattern
21:51:34 <timeless> ... there's been a concern that there's been a concern that it abuses the semantics of track
21:51:46 <timeless> ... the idea is do we add an attribute to <video> or a child element
21:51:52 <timeless> ... an attribute on video would be easier to do
21:51:57 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-wg
21:52:03 <timeless> ... do we introduce an attribute or do we reuse something
21:52:09 <timeless> ... i don't want to go into CR with this hole
21:52:17 <timeless> ... at some point there will be regulatory requirements
21:52:21 <timeless> ... with why did you miss this?
21:52:27 <glenn> q+
21:52:31 <timeless> ... when we captured user requirements
21:52:48 <timeless> sam: a viable answer is "HTML5 has a bunch of holes"
21:52:58 <timeless> ... it sounds like you're saying there are several
21:53:02 <timeless> ... i'd like you to narrow it down to one
21:53:16 <timeless> eric_carlson: <track> right now is used to provide
21:53:28 <timeless> ... time stamped text to the video element
21:53:34 <timeless> ... a transcript isn't time aligned at all
21:53:39 <mark> mark has joined #html-wg
21:53:43 <timeless> ... it would change the semantics
21:53:51 <timeless> ... i don't think that method would have advantages over an attribute
21:53:59 <timeless> hober: the fallback story for <track>
21:54:14 <timeless> ... is particularly bad in a UA that doesn't support <video> or <track transcript>
21:54:41 <timeless> ... using a track= to point out an <element. on the page
21:54:50 <timeless> s/<element./<element>/
21:54:58 <timeless> eric_carlson: every shipping browser on the planet
21:55:09 <timeless> hober: we've provided a fallback for every new feature
21:55:16 <timeless> cyns: there are a couple of reasons i like track better
21:55:24 <timeless> ... having an attribute that points to another place on the page
21:55:32 <timeless> ... is the discussion we had about longdesc=
21:55:43 <timeless> ... having an attribute like longdesc
21:55:54 <timeless> anne: how is <track> different from longdesc=
21:56:03 <chaals> q+
21:56:04 <timeless> cyns: no
21:56:09 <timeless> ... you have a track
21:56:12 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
21:56:12 <timeless> ... all interchangable
21:56:18 <timeless> anne: i don't see the difference
21:56:19 <mjs> q+
21:56:26 <timeless> cyns: you're not saying this url goes to this image
21:56:33 <timeless> ... you're saying these things are interchangable
21:56:43 <timeless> ... <source> is a child element
21:56:50 <timeless> anne: there's also a src= attribute
21:56:57 <timeless> cyns: it seems e
21:56:59 <timeless> s/e//
21:57:08 <timeless> anne: <track> is the same as longdesc=
21:57:18 <timeless> cyns: child elements are easier to understand
21:57:21 <chaals> q+ to say asking web designers to add a link somewhere and a pointer to it is a horrid design approach - and that track, apart from being an element instead of attribute, is equivalent to longdesc
21:57:22 <timeless> q+ Josh_Soref
21:57:35 <timeless> cyns: this one is special, why?
21:57:36 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-wg
21:57:45 <timeless> BobLund: when you consider
21:57:48 <timeless> ... out of band tracks
21:57:54 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-wg
21:57:58 <timeless> ... there's a similarity between out of band attributes
21:58:00 <timeless> ... and in band tracks
21:58:06 <timeless> ... i don't think in band tracks work very well
21:58:14 <hober> We're looking Option 4A "reuse the <track> element" v. Option 2B "mint an indirect transcript attribute which takes many IDREFs"
21:58:18 <timeless> ... i don't think an author wants the transcript available
21:58:32 <timeless> ... i don't think <track> works very well for inband tracks
21:58:44 <timeless> BobLund: <track> works fine for inband tracks
21:58:53 <frankolivier> q+
21:58:56 <timeless> ... but transcript= would work better for the inband transcript case
21:59:00 <timeless> ... if i have an mpeg4 file
21:59:06 <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs
21:59:09 <timeless> ... it isn't likely i'd have the transcript internal to the resource
21:59:12 <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#4A_-_reuse_the_track_element
21:59:18 <timeless> cyns: and the <track> element allows for
21:59:23 <timeless> BobLund: not for inband tracks
21:59:31 <timeless> ... you don't have individual urls to the component tracks
21:59:43 <timeless> cyns: can't you have mixed?
21:59:50 <timeless> janina: can't you have inband subtiles
21:59:56 <timeless> s/subtiles/subtitles/
22:00:00 <timeless> ... and out of band
22:00:16 <timeless> mark: that works
22:00:18 <timeless> q?
22:00:22 <timeless> ack glenn 
22:00:28 <timeless> glenn: timed text
22:00:30 <timeless> ... VTML
22:00:34 <timeless> ... has a role= attribute
22:00:40 <timeless> ... defining arbitrary values
22:00:46 <timeless> ... and one of the values is Transcription
22:00:53 <timeless> ... and you as an author can choose what you're timing
22:00:55 <timeless> ... if you're timing
22:00:56 <yosuke> s/VTML/TTML/
22:01:08 <timeless> JF: so you could put your Transcript into TTML
22:01:12 <timeless> ... with no timing
22:01:18 <timeless> janina: even if there's no timing
22:01:20 <timeless> glenn: yes
22:01:27 <timeless> ... you have control over granularity
22:01:32 <timeless> ... about 10 different levels
22:01:37 <timeless> ... mapping to EI608/708
22:01:39 <timeless> ... roles
22:01:45 <timeless> ... you might take a look at that
22:01:52 <timeless> sam: does that require no change to html5?
22:02:01 <timeless> JF: we'd have to put in a proposal to do a
22:02:13 <timeless> eric_carlson: the Spec text assume the contents of the file are associated with timestamps
22:02:19 <timeless> glenn: I think that Text refers to VTT
22:02:25 <timeless> frankolivier: no
22:02:34 <timeless> hober: it does require the format to be timed
22:02:41 <timeless> glenn: but the timing could be the entired time
22:02:51 <timeless> eric_carlson: if you wanted to present the entire text at the initial time
22:02:56 <timeless> sam: so, some spec work to be done
22:03:01 <timeless> ... glenn is willing to parcipate?
22:03:10 <timeless> s/parcipate/participate/
22:03:12 <timeless> glenn: no
22:03:20 <timeless> anne: I don't think it's going to work
22:03:28 <timeless> ... most browsers aren't going to implement TTML
22:03:34 <timeless> glenn: it's a safe harbor format
22:03:43 <timeless> eric_carlson: ... for content delivery providers
22:04:11 <timeless> mjs: i think we're reaching topics where people wouldn't like to speak without attorneys present
22:04:17 <timeless> cyns: we don't have enough brownies for the lawyers
22:04:20 <timeless> eric_carlson: i could see
22:04:22 <chaals> q?
22:04:30 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-wg
22:04:35 <timeless> ... i'm still not convinced that it makes sense to make sense to change the semantics of <track>
22:04:44 <timeless> ... i think it could work to use an attribute on the media element
22:04:46 <timeless> ... with ID refs
22:04:54 <timeless> hober: that design as many advantages
22:04:56 <timeless> q?
22:05:03 <chaals> ack me
22:05:03 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say asking web designers to add a link somewhere and a pointer to it is a horrid design approach - and that track, apart from being an element instead of
22:05:03 <timeless> ack chaals 
22:05:06 <Zakim> ... attribute, is equivalent to longdesc
22:05:17 <timeless> chaals: it has many technical advantages
22:05:22 <timeless> ... but you have to get the URLs into the page
22:05:31 <timeless> ... the drawback is that you need to get URLs to do that
22:05:38 <timeless> ... it's a horrible design pattern for a document
22:05:56 <timeless> ... pointing to urls is analogous to longdesc=
22:05:59 <timeless> ... there are differences
22:06:00 <timeless> ... but
22:06:06 <timeless> sam: 'it'/'that'?
22:06:23 <timeless> chaals: it= "The IDref pattern"
22:06:26 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
22:06:43 <timeless> ... the thing about track
22:06:47 <krisk> * ping test
22:06:50 <timeless> ... it may change the semantics
22:06:56 <timeless> s/* ping test//
22:06:58 <timeless> ... a zero timing
22:07:06 <timeless> ... it doesn't seem to be a semantic shift
22:07:10 <timeless> ... getting everything in one pile
22:07:15 <timeless> ... i don't see why that's a problem
22:07:22 <timeless> ... you cross out 'timing' in the spec
22:07:28 <timeless> ... you say "that may be timed"
22:07:32 <timeless> ... most of them will be timed
22:07:37 <timeless> ... someone of them might not
22:07:48 <timeless> ... that argument doesn't seem like a meaningful distinction
22:08:00 <timeless> ... "the spec says it's timed, and that means it must have at least two time points"
22:08:06 <timeless> ... that doesn't seem to be a reasonable requirement
22:08:14 <timeless> ... cyns 's suggestion that it be a <track> seems reasonable
22:08:23 <timeless> ... "except for the one that doesn't have timing"
22:08:27 <timeless> ... seems to not make sense
22:08:28 <timeless> ack mjs
22:08:39 <timeless> mjs: i can't remember when i added myself to this queue
22:08:45 <timeless> ... timed v. untimed
22:08:56 <timeless> ... is an important distinction for media
22:09:03 <timeless> ... for synchronizing timelines
22:09:14 <timeless> ... the <video> element does have support for pointing to one untimed element
22:09:17 <timeless> ... the poster image
22:09:23 <timeless> ... it's associated with the video element
22:09:28 <timeless> ... but it doesn't need to be synchronized
22:09:31 <timeless> ... second
22:09:38 <timeless> ... a distinction between <track> and IDref
22:09:42 <timeless> ... chaals mentioned one
22:09:51 <chaals> s/synchronized/synchronized and is an attribute/
22:09:51 <timeless> ... IDref forces the designer to include something visible
22:09:56 <timeless> ... it makes something visible
22:10:02 <cyns> q+
22:10:04 <timeless> ... but it isn't necessarily true
22:10:10 <timeless> ... you could have a video
22:10:14 <timeless> ... and then a link to a transcript
22:10:19 <timeless> ... if i don't have half an hour to watch something
22:10:23 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
22:10:26 <timeless> ... i'd often like to read through the transcrpit
22:10:34 <timeless> s/transcrpit/transcript/
22:10:38 <timeless> ... it seems to be more successful
22:10:51 <timeless> ... than linking to a visible way
22:10:55 <timeless> [scribe-garbled-mjs]
22:11:05 <timeless> mjs: IDref also accounts for having things visible in the page
22:11:20 <timeless> ... you want to programmatically associate that
22:11:27 <timeless> ... i think people should keep this in mind
22:11:36 <timeless> ... that's more salient than the logical meaning of the <track> element
22:11:37 <timeless> ack me
22:11:41 <timeless> ack josh_soref
22:12:15 <timeless> q+ Josh_Soref
22:12:16 <timeless> ack frankolivier 
22:12:20 <timeless> frankolivier: 2 questions
22:12:33 <timeless> ... is there a requirement to link multiple transcripts to a video or just one
22:12:33 <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/w3c_video.html example of a page with a video that links to a transcript
22:12:39 <timeless> JF: the requirement isn't that specific
22:12:44 <timeless> ... we could need one or more
22:12:52 <timeless> hober: both proposals support multiple
22:13:05 <timeless> frankolivier: what's the difference between transcripts and a timed text file?
22:13:16 <timeless> JF: traditionally a transcript captures more than just the dialog
22:13:31 <timeless> ... it's sort of an amalgamation of CC and Descriptive Text
22:13:35 <timeless> ... it's almost like a Book
22:13:43 <timeless> ... it's an alt-ernative presentation
22:13:50 <timeless> cyns: think of it as a Script for a Play
22:13:59 <timeless> janina: it might also have timing data
22:14:17 <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/w3c_video_transcript.html transcript that spells out text display in the video
22:14:21 <timeless> ack cyns 
22:14:27 <timeless> q+ Josh_Soref to say that you want non Accessible requiring users to review transcripts
22:14:37 <timeless> cyns: I could live with either attribute or <track>
22:14:45 <timeless> ... getting developers to understand and live with this
22:14:51 <timeless> ... poster= seems like a different thing
22:14:58 <timeless> ... it isn't a description of the whole content of the video
22:15:07 <timeless> ... <track> comprise the content of the entire <video>
22:15:10 <timeless> ... and so does <transcript>
22:15:20 <timeless> hober: requiring developers to do any of this at all
22:15:27 <timeless> ... it makes sense to piggyback on what they're doing
22:15:27 <Mark_Vic_> q?
22:15:32 <timeless> ... people are adding links in prose
22:15:38 <JF> +Q
22:15:46 <timeless> ... IDrefs is pixydust to link up existing videos with existing content
22:15:56 <timeless> ... in terms of encouraging author adoption, "keep doing what you're doing"
22:16:02 <timeless> cyns: in the short term, that will be true
22:16:10 <timeless> ... but in the long term, when they're adding tracks to videos
22:16:13 <timeless> ... why would that be true?
22:16:16 <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe 
22:16:26 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why are you forcing developers to force the full transcript on this page?
22:16:27 <Mark_Vic_> If a transcript can having timing info, how is it then different than a caption text track?
22:16:37 <timeless> hober: an IDref could point to an <a> linking off the page
22:16:49 <timeless> [ chaals waves hand ]
22:16:59 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why make person put another link on the page
22:17:07 <timeless> hober: people already put links in the page
22:17:14 <timeless> ... one of those links will bitrot faster than the other
22:17:23 <timeless> ... visible link v. link in video
22:17:29 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: show a visual indicator
22:17:37 <timeless> ... transcript attribute
22:17:46 <timeless> ... UA vendor shows that
22:17:50 <janina> q+
22:17:55 <timeless> hober: any method allows that
22:18:03 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why make the author put the link on the page
22:18:09 <timeless> hober: we're paving cowpaths
22:18:19 <timeless> cyns: we're doing that because we asked them to do that
22:18:25 <timeless> sam: i'd like to flush the queue
22:18:32 <timeless> ack Josh_Soref
22:18:32 <Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to say that you want non Accessible requiring users to review transcripts
22:18:37 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
22:19:34 <cyns> q+
22:19:47 <timeless> Josh_Soref: If there's a CC or Transcript available
22:19:52 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #html-wg
22:19:58 <timeless> ... I, as a non accessibility needing user am likely to try to use it
22:20:00 <timeless> ... and like it
22:20:08 <timeless> ... but if it doesn't work, I will complain
22:20:17 <timeless> ... I and people like me (mjs)
22:20:26 <timeless> ... and we will help clean the cowpaths
22:20:28 <timeless> q?
22:20:33 <timeless> ack JF
22:20:40 <timeless> JF: sam you asked about options
22:20:46 <timeless> ... I'm happy to only look at two options
22:20:49 <timeless> ... and to discard the others
22:20:50 <timeless> sam: ok
22:20:53 <timeless> JF: points...
22:21:00 <timeless> ... cyns mentioned the authoring pattern
22:21:09 <timeless> ... there's an assumption of people authoring content using a text editor
22:21:17 <timeless> ... many people create content using WYSIWYG editors
22:21:21 <timeless> ... the Dialog comes up
22:21:24 <timeless> ... for a video
22:21:29 <timeless> ... and you click on files
22:21:36 <timeless> ... the pattern for linking for a <video>
22:21:39 <timeless> ... seems very simple
22:21:45 <timeless> ... if you add an IDref
22:21:50 <timeless> ... that seems more cumbersome
22:21:53 <timeless> ... we've talked about C+P
22:21:59 <timeless> ... everything remains self contained
22:22:04 <timeless> ... if you copy an IDref
22:22:11 <timeless> ... but not that ref'd content
22:22:14 <timeless> ... then you lose that
22:22:17 <timeless> ... when you paste
22:22:29 <timeless> ... nothing precludes an author from adding a transcript as a <track> kind
22:22:37 <timeless> ... and later including an <a href>
22:22:48 <timeless> ... and you don't put the <a href>, we still have the reference
22:22:49 <timeless> q?
22:22:51 <timeless> ack janina 
22:22:56 <timeless> janina: 2 points around UCs
22:23:02 <timeless> ... mjs 's point of accessibility
22:23:07 <timeless> ... you just want to read the transcript
22:23:15 <timeless> ... we really want to solve this now
22:23:18 <timeless> ... and not HTML.next
22:23:25 <timeless> ... the curb-cut effect
22:23:32 <timeless> ... i'm not hearing when talking about IDref
22:23:44 <timeless> ... sometimes untimed, and sometimes also timed
22:23:47 <mjs> q+
22:23:49 <timeless> ... maybe TTML covers that
22:23:55 <timeless> ... i don't know how you cover that
22:24:05 <timeless> JF: TTML is a timestamping format
22:24:13 <timeless> sam: is it IDref or <track>
22:24:19 <timeless> cyns: it's a possible src= for a <track>
22:24:32 <timeless> JF: if the desire to preserve the timing notion of track 
22:24:42 <timeless> ... then make the <track> a full length
22:25:04 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: we spent a lot of time looking at this
22:25:10 <timeless> ... we need a visual association with this thing
22:25:17 <timeless> hober: you'd get a visual association
22:25:25 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: you'd have a link somewhere else in the page
22:25:33 <timeless> ... and you assume the person doing this relative to the video
22:25:42 <timeless> ... basically take transcript 
22:25:50 <timeless> ... and put the visual indicator next to the video
22:25:56 <timeless> ... what we're doing for Described Video
22:26:03 <timeless> ... this is what we're looking at
22:26:12 <timeless> ... put an icon of your choice
22:26:20 <timeless> q?
22:26:23 <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe 
22:26:30 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: I see no reason for another link to be on the page
22:26:34 <timeless> sam: you prefer <track>, ok
22:26:36 <timeless> ack cyns 
22:26:41 <timeless> cyns: I agree w/ Josh_Soref, mjs
22:26:49 <timeless> ... about wanting to have access to that
22:26:56 <timeless> ... i don't think it should be something to be responsible for
22:27:12 <timeless> ... i think an IDref and a link is two things for an author to make a mistake
22:27:19 <timeless> ... and I agree with JF about C+P
22:27:23 <timeless> ... more ways to mess up
22:27:31 <timeless> ... same way I don't like the longdesc= replacement proposals
22:27:32 <timeless> q?
22:27:33 <timeless> ack mjs
22:27:43 <timeless> mjs: some transcripts may not just be a flat text transcript of the video
22:27:49 <timeless> ... possibly a machine readable timing
22:27:57 <timeless> ... possibly including captions and descriptive text
22:28:02 <timeless> ... it seems those are different things
22:28:11 <timeless> ... sometimes you want a transcript of the video
22:28:11 <JF> +Q
22:28:17 <timeless> ... and sometimes you want an HTML file
22:28:25 <timeless> ... other times you want it to be timed with the video
22:28:30 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
22:28:32 <timeless> ... in some cases you want it timed
22:28:42 <timeless> ... for timed w. the video v. flat
22:28:46 <timeless> ... it may not be the same UC
22:28:59 <timeless> ... and maybe we're doing a disservice 
22:29:00 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
22:29:06 <timeless> JF: mjs, i don't disagree with you
22:29:07 <timeless> ack JF
22:29:13 <timeless> ... and it may be a PDF or a DOC
22:29:15 <timeless> sam: ouch
22:29:21 <timeless> JF: i'd prefer HTML
22:29:26 <timeless> ... putting that aside
22:29:31 <timeless> ... the reason we're saying TTML
22:29:43 <timeless> ... if there's a huge desire not to pollute the purity of <track>
22:29:48 <timeless> ... we can make the guidance
22:29:55 <timeless> ... "make it TTML"
22:30:04 <timeless> ... chaals mentioned that semantic purity isn't a huge advantage
22:30:19 <timeless> ... we've got this stuff that augments, supplements, or replaces for disabled people
22:30:25 <timeless> ... we're just looking for an elegant way of doing that
22:30:31 <timeless> ... <track> is an elegant way of doing that
22:30:42 <timeless> mjs: a TTML file isn't something you could link to in a browser
22:30:54 <timeless> ... all transcripts linked today would not work if they were TTML
22:30:58 <timeless> ... so that seems like a downside
22:31:03 <timeless> chaals: that's also true of VTT
22:31:05 <hober> q+
22:31:08 <timeless> ... and various other formats
22:31:14 <timeless> ... in practice, they damn well read them
22:31:27 <timeless> ... it's not pretty, but it's a transcript, that's readable, and it's a step forward
22:31:36 <timeless> ... occasionally, they put them in the web page
22:31:40 <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe 
22:31:56 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: can <video> controllers handle <track>s with no timings ?
22:31:59 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-wg
22:32:02 <timeless> cyns: you just put full length for it
22:32:07 <timeless> ack hober 
22:32:16 <timeless> hober: i saw this when i prepared the wiki page
22:32:21 <timeless> ... i encourage people to read it
22:32:25 <timeless> ... i came up with a list
22:32:28 <timeless> ... between these two
22:32:31 <JF> hober's research page: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs
22:32:33 <timeless> ... they each fulfill some
22:32:37 <timeless> ... fail to fulfill others
22:32:48 <timeless> ... the attribute with IDrefs did come out on top in terms of requirements
22:32:52 <timeless> ... we could walk through that
22:33:11 <timeless> s|hober's research page: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs  hober's research page|
22:33:24 <timeless> BobLund: how would transcript work with continuous media?
22:33:33 <timeless> eric_carlson: how would anything work with continuous?
22:33:49 <timeless> BobLund: with <track> you could produce something 
22:33:57 <timeless> janina: we have UCs for both experiences
22:34:08 <timeless> eric_carlson: unless you have timestamps, that won't help you much
22:34:15 <timeless> BobLund: right, you'd have to have timestamps
22:34:29 <timeless> eric_carlson: in the same way
22:34:30 <tantek__> tantek__ has joined #html-wg
22:34:36 <timeless> ... it's a url to a resource on a server
22:34:45 <timeless> ... it doesn't make a difference where the url is on the server
22:34:53 <timeless> ... it doesn't make any difference
22:35:05 <timeless> sam: we started with two change proposals
22:35:09 <timeless> ... one which said defer
22:35:18 <timeless> ... now we have two more concrete proposals
22:35:22 <timeless> ... we can't hold HTML5 forever
22:35:35 <timeless> ... are people committed to writing down the <track> and IDref ones?
22:35:43 <timeless> ... if people are willing to do both, we're going to survey
22:35:54 <timeless> ... if they don't, the one that goes, will be the one that will win
22:36:00 <timeless> JF: I'm happy to propose <track>
22:36:09 <timeless> ... but it's fast and loose with your timeline
22:36:19 <timeless> hober: will you withdraw your existing proposal?
22:36:22 <timeless> JF: i'm likely to
22:36:30 <timeless> sam: we'd ask you to update
22:36:35 <timeless> JF: updating would be a rewrite
22:36:48 <hober> q+
22:36:50 <timeless> paulc: this conversation started with an assertion that we can't finish HTML5 without this feature
22:37:05 <timeless> ... Web+TV IG came to us with a whole bunch of Addon proposals for HTML5
22:37:12 <timeless> ... can this be an addon for html5?
22:37:18 <timeless> ... does it have to be on our critical path?i
22:37:22 <timeless> issue-204?
22:37:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
22:37:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
22:37:24 <timeless> issue-30?
22:37:24 <trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
22:37:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
22:37:28 <timeless> s/path?i/path?/
22:37:40 <timeless> ... this could be the long pole for getting out of LC
22:37:47 <timeless> ... i'm not saying is it important
22:37:55 <timeless> ... i'm saying could it be a separate spec
22:38:04 <timeless> sam: our motivation is to exit LC
22:38:09 <timeless> JF: i can't answer that question
22:38:14 <timeless> ... part of the problem
22:38:25 <timeless> ... is that this issue will be muddied by compliance issues
22:38:29 <timeless> ... that are not technical
22:38:37 <timeless> ... to get HTML5 past CR would be blocked
22:38:51 <timeless> paulc: CR is where W3C calls for Implementations
22:38:58 <timeless> ... nothing about quality or completeness
22:39:05 <timeless> ... it's just asking implementers "can you implement"
22:39:19 <timeless> ... "can a third party, not in the working group use the spec to drive implementation"
22:39:24 <hober> q?
22:39:25 <timeless> ... a feature missing doesn't hurt that
22:39:33 <timeless> chaals: when HTML5 goes to PR
22:39:39 <timeless> ... if this feature isn't terribly complicated
22:39:47 <timeless> ... and a number of members are asked to vote for it
22:39:56 <timeless> ... you'll find a number of members of W3C that are fairly upset
22:40:06 <timeless> ... the answer to "can you put it in a separate spec"
22:40:10 <timeless> ... is "sure you can"
22:40:15 <timeless> ... is it an elegant solution?
22:40:16 <timeless> ... no
22:40:26 <timeless> ... it's an ugly solution, it will probably solve the problem
22:40:26 <glenn> q+
22:40:30 <timeless> ... it would be nice to avoid going there
22:40:41 <timeless> sam: it's my opinion that the question isn't whether it's complicated
22:40:46 <timeless> ... it's whether it's controversial
22:40:54 <timeless> ... link to a link isn't about hard to implement
22:40:57 <timeless> ... it's hard to get users to do
22:41:09 <timeless> ... it's a matter of whether it's controversial
22:41:18 <tantek__> q+ to note that microformats have been adopted just fine as additional separate specifications to HTML4/HTML5.
22:41:18 <timeless> ... would you hold up HTML5 for your pet feature
22:41:24 <timeless> ... or do you want to get HTML5 out?
22:41:29 <timeless> ... we're closing out features for HTML5
22:41:35 <timeless> ... but we're close
22:41:38 <timeless> ... I want hard dates
22:41:45 <timeless> JF: you want it by next friday?
22:41:50 <timeless> ... i'll get it to you by next friday
22:41:58 <timeless> ACTION JF to deliver a proposal by next friday
22:41:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - JF
22:42:07 <timeless> ACTION sam to get JF to deliver a proposal by next friday
22:42:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-210 - Get JF to deliver a proposal by next friday [on Sam Ruby - due 2012-05-10].
22:42:16 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
22:42:18 <timeless> JF: i'll commit to next friday
22:42:29 <hober> ack hober
22:42:36 <timeless> sam: it sounds like given a choice between <track> and IDref would like to write a proposal for IDref?
22:42:43 <timeless> hober: I'm happy to write up IDref
22:42:48 <timeless> ... but i'm not withdrawing proposal to defer
22:43:14 <timeless> ACTION hober to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal by next friday
22:43:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - hober
22:43:20 <timeless> ACTION sam to get hober to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal by next friday
22:43:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-211 - Get hober to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal by next friday [on Sam Ruby - due 2012-05-10].
22:43:39 <timeless> paulc: hober, you're now signed up for 3 items
22:43:43 <timeless> ISSUE-199?
22:43:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
22:43:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
22:43:56 <timeless> paulc: I recognize you have a commitment to CSS-WG
22:43:58 <timeless> ISSUE-201?
22:43:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
22:43:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
22:44:05 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
22:44:17 <timeless> paulc: maybe offline you should work with the chairs
22:44:19 <glenn> q-
22:44:24 <timeless> sam: is it about extracting this portion from the wiki
22:44:32 <timeless> hober: it's not new work
22:44:51 <timeless> eric_carlson: you might be able to talk me into helping
22:44:56 <MikeSmith> q?
22:44:57 <timeless> mjs: seems like if the research is done
22:45:01 <timeless> ... someone could copy it
22:45:11 <timeless> sam: a proposal could have people throw darts at
22:45:17 <timeless> ... and that's the discussion i'd rather have
22:45:19 <timeless> q?
22:45:21 <timeless> ack trackbot 
22:45:23 <timeless> ack tantek__ 
22:45:23 <Zakim> tantek__, you wanted to note that microformats have been adopted just fine as additional separate specifications to HTML4/HTML5.
22:45:44 <timeless> tantek__: experience has shown separate specs can do just fine
22:45:59 <timeless> ... multiple specs, ranging from a single attribute, to multiple attributes
22:46:03 <timeless> ... that have been adopted just fine
22:46:08 <timeless> ... based on the component nature of the web
22:46:16 <timeless> ... and a broader trend in w3c of modularizing
22:46:23 <timeless> ... you need folks who can do it well
22:46:33 <timeless> chaals: i didn't mean to say it wasn't possible
22:46:37 <timeless> tantek__: you said it was ugly
22:46:41 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #html-wg
22:46:44 <timeless> ... and i'm saying there's data that disputes
22:46:50 <timeless> ... HTML5 is a huge spec
22:46:59 <timeless> ... if something CAN be done, it SHOULD be done
22:47:02 <timeless> ... not even MAY be done
22:47:12 <timeless> sam: ultimately, that's a 4th proposal
22:47:16 <adrianba> +1 to everything tantek just said
22:47:25 <timeless> ... saying "someone else SHOULD do something" isn't going to fly
22:47:31 <timeless> ... it's a viable .next discussion
22:47:42 <timeless> ... unless someone proposes doing that for HTML5
22:47:50 <timeless> tantek__: i didn't propose that
22:47:54 <timeless> ... just to dispute chaals 
22:47:59 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: to hober 
22:48:07 <timeless> ... i'm concerned about IDref
22:48:11 <timeless> ... could you make it a url?
22:48:16 <timeless> hober: when i did the research
22:48:26 <timeless> ... i considered lots of designs
22:48:29 <ddorwin> q+
22:48:36 <timeless> ... i think URL is worse than IDref in a variety of ways
22:48:56 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i haven't seen your justification
22:49:00 <timeless> hober: go look at it
22:49:07 <timeless> ... i believe it's 1A on the wiki page
22:49:30 <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research
22:51:20 <timeless> [ hober describes 1A which is projected on the screen ]
22:51:33 <JF> +Q
22:51:53 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:51:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
22:52:22 <timeless> s/+Q//g
22:52:53 <timeless> janina: Links doesn't know video
22:53:02 <timeless> chaals: there's a time
22:53:14 <timeless> hober: i've only pressed play, pause, scrubbers
22:53:19 <timeless> ... i might not know what all those things mean
22:53:26 <timeless> ... but text that says "transcript"
22:53:34 <tantek__> video element was designed with fallback / existing UAs in mind.
22:54:54 <Zakim> -Clarke
22:57:53 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-wg
23:13:05 <janina> q?
23:13:11 <janina> q+
23:13:18 <timeless> JF: hober, you were saying
23:13:20 <timeless> ... controls
23:13:25 <timeless> ... one question i'd ask you
23:13:30 <timeless> ... you'd hit play/pause/stop
23:13:37 <timeless> ... and the rest would be "unlearnable"?
23:13:46 <timeless> ... if you saw a button in a video player that had [CC]
23:13:52 <timeless> ... you'd quickly learn what those did
23:13:57 <timeless> ... one observation we're seeing
23:14:03 <timeless> ... is that people script their own controls
23:14:13 <timeless> ... the fact that we're having programmatic
23:14:18 <timeless> ... controls that they can associate
23:14:22 <timeless> ... works
23:14:25 <timeless> ... it goes to the point that
23:14:28 <timeless> ... moving forward
23:14:36 <timeless> ... if there was a consistent way that controls could expose a button
23:14:43 <timeless> ... or an equivalent features
23:14:46 <timeless> s/features/feature/
23:14:50 <chaals> s/there's a time/the argument about back-compat is not untrue. But paving that cowpath is like implementing video by having an a href link to the video and then importing it because existing browsers didn't support <video> elements. There is a time to work on adding functionality./
23:14:57 <timeless> ... if there was a control panel that had a consistent behavior
23:15:07 <timeless> ... that would make the requirement for a text link
23:15:17 <timeless> ... to be embedded in the document to be less important
23:15:23 <timeless> ... there's this week, next month, 3 years from now
23:15:29 <mjs> q+
23:15:36 <timeless> ... i appreciate we may not have it all today, next month, or by the end of 2012
23:15:44 <timeless> ... but the train keeps rolling
23:15:51 <timeless> ... yes you want to pave cowpaths
23:16:00 <timeless> ... but sometimes you want to steer cows in the right directoin
23:16:01 <JF> ack JF
23:16:08 <timeless> s/directoin/direction/
23:16:17 <timeless> glenn: it's a lot harder to get things in once you've gone to CR
23:16:25 <timeless> ... you can mark things as AT RISK
23:16:32 <timeless> ... but getting something in later is harder
23:16:34 <timeless> q?
23:16:40 <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe 
23:16:48 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it seems like
23:16:54 <timeless> ... we're sacrificing usability of the page
23:16:59 <timeless> ... just so we can support older browsers
23:17:06 <timeless> ... looking at the justification that hober had
23:17:09 <timeless> ... for not using a url
23:17:13 <timeless> ... it's just for backwards compat
23:17:20 <timeless> ... by the time <video> is done
23:17:24 <timeless> ... probably a year or two out
23:17:28 <timeless> ... why would we do that
23:17:33 <timeless> ... we had the same discussion with <canvas>
23:17:44 <timeless> ... we found they were supporting this on mobile devices
23:17:46 <timeless> ack ddorwin 
23:17:50 <timeless> ddorwin: David Dorwin
23:17:58 <timeless> ... there was a link, or display alongside the page
23:18:02 <timeless> ... or timed
23:18:10 <timeless> ... maybe it's listed
23:18:17 <timeless> ... what are the desired requirements that a browser would do?
23:18:26 <timeless> ... should the browser be able display this as a window next to the page?
23:18:33 <timeless> ... a point about reference is maybe that links you
23:18:39 <timeless> ... if we want to keep these together
23:18:51 <timeless> ... today you could do this with <track> as timed or not
23:18:51 <timeless> ... but it would require JS
23:18:55 <timeless> ... it should be easy
23:19:01 <timeless> ... and that might affect the design
23:19:13 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: UAs can detect the browser that made the request
23:19:23 <timeless> ... i don't see the need to have this fallback
23:19:33 <timeless> ddorwin: it wasn't a response
23:19:36 <timeless> ... just a general input
23:19:41 <timeless> ... if you wanted to correlate in some way
23:19:49 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i would much rather have the browser say look
23:19:55 <timeless> ... what's the best usable experience?
23:20:00 <timeless> ... an indication that there's a transcript
23:20:05 <timeless> ... and provide the ability to view it
23:20:15 <timeless> ... a separate window, in the same context, i don't know
23:20:26 <timeless> ... there are so many differences between IE7 and today's browsers
23:20:33 <timeless> ... i don't see the point in going back to support them
23:20:40 <timeless> ... i'd rather get them to move to IE10 or the latest Chrome
23:20:50 <timeless> janina: i was going to suggest on the same lines
23:21:02 <timeless> ... the media elements are some of the most persuasive reasons to get users to update their browsers
23:21:13 <timeless> ... even before we start designing really good interfaces
23:21:33 <timeless> ... thinking about railroad gauge being the way they are -- roman chariots 
23:21:42 <timeless> ... and here's why the reason to do it is a good idea
23:21:55 <timeless> ... protecting the past. the past disappears fairly quickly
23:21:58 <timeless> q?
23:22:02 <timeless> ack JF 
23:22:04 <timeless> ack janina 
23:22:05 <timeless> ack mjs 
23:22:23 <timeless> mjs: has anyone here heard from a content author unwilling to add a visible transcript link?
23:22:25 <timeless> chaals: i've never asked
23:22:29 <timeless> ... but as anne said
23:22:41 <timeless> ... this is the same stylistic design decision about longdesc=
23:22:47 <timeless> ... boatloads of designers unwilling to do it
23:22:52 <timeless> cyns: i haven't had examples of refusing
23:22:58 <timeless> ... but when i talk about it
23:23:02 <timeless> ... i get pushback
23:23:08 <timeless> ... two hours of complaining
23:23:20 <timeless> mjs: if they had to do a custom video control
23:23:28 <timeless> cyns: i'm not encountering custom
23:23:36 <timeless> JF: we're looking to browsers to add it
23:23:47 <timeless> mjs: majority of <video> on the web is using custom control
23:23:49 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
23:23:59 <timeless> JF: if they have Transcripts, and are using custom control, they'll build it
23:24:06 <timeless> ... the native controls will build it
23:24:18 <timeless> mjs: clicking on a link below a video doesn't seem like a bad UE
23:24:24 <timeless> ... there are people asserting it would be
23:24:32 <timeless> cyns: i'm asserting it's a bad Developer Experience
23:24:39 <timeless> ... talking to developers, they don't like it
23:24:40 <JF> Q+
23:24:47 <timeless> ... i don't want email for the next 10 years
23:24:58 <timeless> sam: put in concrete feedback to your proposal
23:25:04 <timeless> mjs: for videos using custom controls
23:25:11 <timeless> ... folks mentioned they can put in their own button
23:25:24 <timeless> ... but that same use case can be served just as well with an <a href>
23:25:35 <timeless> ... it doesn't lock out
23:25:43 <timeless> ... a link with a text link or a button in controls
23:25:47 <timeless> ... doesn't lock in
23:25:48 <timeless> q?
23:25:55 <timeless> mjs: point 3
23:25:57 <timeless> ... [of 3]
23:26:03 <timeless> ... folks say: who cares about old browsers?
23:26:08 <timeless> ... we should push users to new browsers
23:26:22 <timeless> ... in my experience, web developers are reluctant to use things that require new browsers
23:26:41 <timeless> ... if you give them something that requires that, they'll hold off until adoption
23:26:44 <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe 
23:26:57 <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: developers are having to deal with more frequent release cycles than they've ever had before
23:27:02 <timeless> ... every 3 or 4 months
23:27:11 <timeless> ... they're more conditioned to things coming out on that schedule
23:27:19 <timeless> ... the transition to new browsers isn't a 2 year anything anymore
23:27:27 <timeless> ... In terms of developers/end users
23:27:33 <mjs> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0
23:27:35 <timeless> ... end users/developers like done by default
23:27:39 <timeless> ... ARIA Live Regions
23:27:47 <timeless> ... oh, it already speaks for me w/ ATs
23:27:49 <plh> on mobile, the release cycle aren't 3/4 months...
23:28:02 <timeless> ... if you want to show a link for Safari
23:28:10 <timeless> ... that's ok, but then you have to decide where to put it on my page
23:28:16 <timeless> ... we had this problem w/ longdesc=
23:28:24 <timeless> ... it's like "skip to main content" links
23:28:29 <timeless> ... it detracts from what they do
23:28:33 <timeless> s/do/want to do/
23:28:38 <timeless> ... maybe providing a way to override it
23:28:47 <JF> ack JF
23:28:54 <timeless> ... but getting something from the browser for free is something they aren't going to complain about
23:29:01 <timeless> cyns: especially if they don't have to do something
23:29:03 <timeless> q?
23:29:12 <timeless> mjs: I pasted a link to marketshare study
23:29:27 <timeless> s|http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0|-> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0 Market Share study|
23:29:41 <timeless> JF: developers are starting to race to the latest
23:29:44 <rniwa_> rniwa_ has joined #html-wg
23:29:50 <timeless> ... gobbling up new CSS stuff
23:29:57 <timeless> sam: stuff that gracefully degrades
23:30:01 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-wg
23:30:05 <timeless> JF: <video> in a page, using a page
23:30:21 <timeless> sam: <track> element in on a browser that supports <video> but not <track transcript>
23:30:32 <timeless> chaals: browser that supports <video> but not <track>, those exist as well
23:30:37 <timeless> JF: same problem, different bucket
23:30:52 <timeless> ... browsers today not supporting Track, not supporting Subtitles, same poor UX
23:30:54 <timeless> q?
23:31:01 <timeless> mjs: Browser adoption, developer adoption
23:31:09 <timeless> ... mobile content is driven differently
23:31:19 <timeless> ... mobile focused developers using latest stuff
23:31:28 <timeless> ... but on desktop site they care about older browsers
23:31:35 <timeless> sam: will there be desktops in 3 years?
23:31:40 <timeless> paulc: what will happen for this issue?
23:31:54 <timeless> sam: JF will have a proposal by a week from friday
23:31:59 <timeless> ... "in 8 days"
23:32:07 <timeless> ... hober will extract from the wiki in the same time frame
23:32:28 <timeless> paulc: chairs will try to review those ASAP and see where they stand
23:32:34 <timeless> sam: there will be a survey
23:32:41 <timeless> ... and i can see there'd be a discussion for a couple of weeks
23:32:48 <timeless> JF: i'm thankful to everyone for participating
23:32:49 <plh> zakim, passcode?
23:32:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
23:32:54 <timeless> sam: we have plenty of things in the queue
23:33:14 <timeless> ... if we can get 1-3 proposals mashed out
23:33:16 <timeless> ... improved/merged
23:33:20 <timeless> ... getting them in concrete
23:33:23 <timeless> ... i'm happy with that
23:33:42 <timeless> ... and hober isn't withdrawing his third one
23:33:56 <timeless> paulc: i'd like to thank richardschwerdtfe for breaking out the schedule and money
23:34:04 <timeless> ... it applies to everyone in the room
23:34:15 <timeless> ... myself and the accessibility coordinators attempted to get the right people in the room
23:34:17 <timeless> ... so thank you richardschwerdtfe 
23:34:26 <timeless> [ Recessed until tomorrow @9am ]
23:34:43 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
23:34:44 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
23:34:44 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, eliot, F2F, MichaelC
23:34:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
23:34:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot
23:34:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
23:34:53 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-actions.rdf :
23:34:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ted to outline a timeline for producing an aligned change proposal to address ISSUEE-199. Due in 2 weeks [1]
23:34:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-irc#T19-00-50