See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012
<cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
<krit> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/att-0083/sandwich-svg.svg
<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0083.html
dirk: the question: should SVG be on top of CSS animation or the other way around
cameron: can you summarize?
dirk: in the model you see the CSS change the intrinsic style? How do you apply SVG animation on top of that?
cabanier: Brian, Shane and I have been having talks about how to progress animations
<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0084.html says that the CSS animations overrides in gecko
cabanier: we were thinking that maybe there should be the ability to specify the order that animations are applied
cameron: you mean that the order lets you mix svg and css animation?
cabanier: yes
... that's an idea we discussed
cameron: with the sandwich model you look at document order
dirk: yes. if the animations are applied on the same time, then document is chosen
cameron: so is the proposal for both SVG and CSS
cabanier: yes
dirk: mozilla currently divides
them
... the problem with specifiyng an order is that they run into
different time container
cabanier: yes, we're aware of
that
... it's not a complete proposal at this point.
... just something we were thinking about this week
... we're hoping to have a proposal by the Hamburg F2F
dirk: I believe that will be too
late.
... do you have something in the mean time that works?
cabanier: I think what you propose now is reasonable
cameron: I think I'm OK with that
as well. So you can specify behavior if you don't have the new
keyword
... that way we're also not held up by the new css spec
dirk: In the mean time, shoud the CSS animation mention SMIL
cameron/cabanier: no
cameron: are the notes of the animation meeting online?
cabanier: yes, they are on the w3 server
meeting notes: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings
cabanier: overview: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations
ed: do we have a resolution
dirk: should we say that CSS animation don't mention SMIL?
cabanier: yes
... and your proposed order is reasonable
dirk: I believe it's OK to leave that unspecified at the moment
cameron: so how do other browsers than firefox do this?
dirk: we just landed a path to match WebKit with FireFox
cameron: and opera?
<heycam> ed, http://people.mozilla.org/~dholbert/tests/smil/compat_tests/transitionsVsSMIL_v1.svg
ed: I don't know. Is there a test?
dirk: yes, Daniel Holbert supplied one
ed: tested in Opera 12, seems that SMIL wins over the css transitions
cameron: It seems that we're in a situation that the public versions are different
cabanier: if everyone converging, shouldn't that become the standard?
cameron/ed/Dirk: that would be OK for me
cameron: to be sure: this is only
when CSS and SMIL start at the same time
... is it ignoring the start times of the SVG or the CSS?
... if there are CSS and SVG, SVG will always come second and
CSS first
... regardless of start time
<scribe> ACTION: cabanier to come up with a solution to specify ordering of animations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3241 - Come up with a solution to specify ordering of animations [on Rik Cabanier - due 2012-03-08].
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
dirk: for SMIL animations, we need JavaScript
ed: I agree. I have an action to
commit some examples of converted SVG 1.1 animation tests using
the js testing framework
... this is something we do internally
cameron: we set the current
animation time and look at the current values
... tav has an action on this
... is this easily doable or does it require a lot of work?
tav: currently it is set up to
test for environments that don't have javascript
... we like the test to have links so you can link to the spec
(and vice versa)
... (going over the test suite)
... we have limited tests for CSS
... you have tests that require pixel perfect result
... for certain tests, we don't require that (ie gradients)
cameron: last time we looked, the automation wasn't there
dirk: you want to have it cross
browser
... can you use the canvas tag/
plinss: some people have looked into that
shepazu: hixie is looking into
ways to draw svg paths directly into canvas
... you could draw the same SVG and canvas using the same
API
... for a vast majority of content
<krit> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html
<heycam> This is with drawImage
cameron: it works as long as you don't have external references
cabanier: I believe it's the same in webkit
dirk: I have to check that
cameron: automation would be quite beneficial
plinss: you could set it up so
that you can say that a test must matchs all references or
any
... so you can have browser specific reference files
cameron: how are css animations tested?
plinss: we don't have any
ed: do you want to add more to
the wiki page tav?
... for example, that the css testing framework documentation
said you can't use plain SVG?
tav: we can look at the script and see if you can use plain svg
plinss: that should not be a problem
ed: the metadata was supposed to be a HTML
plinss: the harnass itself doesn't really care where the data comes from
tav: can you extract the metadata from the SVG itself
pllins: if it's XML, we open it and look HTML namespace head element inside of it
plinsss: I parse the file and create the DOM and look for the head tag and expect the metadata to be there
tav: right now it's all in the namespace "d"
<ed> here's an example: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/animate-dom-01-f.svg
plinss: if you use it consistently, it would be trivial to add to the build system
tav: how would I find this?
plinss: there is no good documentation on how to set it up
<plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/harness
plinss: this is our wiki that has everything you need
<plinss> http://hg.csswg.org/test
<plinss> http://hg.csswg.org/test/file/tip/tools
<plinss> http://hg.csswg.org/dev/w3ctestlib/
ed: what would you recommend, going with the html:head structure, or keep and extend the existing svg test metadata?
plinss: whatever is
convenient
... it would be easiest if the metadata itself is the same
<plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format
plinss: what you wrap it in is
not relevant
... but it would be easiest if the data itself is similar
cameron: we should be able to do it
<plinss> http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/
plinss: it's like a bugzilla for your testsuite
cameron: pretty cool
plinss: it shows your revision
history, who approved the tests, flags tests as needing work,
etc
... it's still in development but you can use it now
tav: where would the SVG test suite be located?
plinss: you set up your own repository and shepherd will refer to it
<heycam> there's an empty repo here: http://svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tests/
ed: we already have a svg2-tests repository
<plinss> http://w3c-test.org/framework/
<RikCabanier> (discussion on using test repository)
<plinss> http://hg.csswg.org/test
<RikCabanier> ed: I propose that we move to this structure
<RikCabanier> cameron: I agree
<RikCabanier> ACTION: cameron to create directories in the SVG2 test repository [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3242 - Create directories in the SVG2 test repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-08].
<RikCabanier> plinss: within the approved directory, there's a data and src directory
<RikCabanier> plinss: src has the test and data contains the spec section manifest files
<RikCabanier> ACTION: tav to mirror css test metadata setup in SVG and come up with a template for new tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3243 - Mirror css test metadata setup in SVG and come up with a template for new tests [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-03-08].
<krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transforms/
<krit> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
<RikCabanier> dirk: since the published draft is wrong, I need to ask everyone to approve a new working draft
<RikCabanier> cyril: I don't see a difference
<RikCabanier> dirk: look at chapter 7
<RikCabanier> cyril: o I see
<RikCabanier> cameron: what is the current thinking on adding the SVG to the CSS spec?
<RikCabanier> cameron: are people happy to include it in the spec?
<RikCabanier> dirk: absolutely
<RikCabanier> dirk: there are concerns that it slows down, but I'm committed to advancing it quickly
<RikCabanier> dirk: we can go to CR in May
<ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#svg-transform
<RikCabanier> ACTION: cameron to review section 7 in new CSS transform spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3244 - Review section 7 in new CSS transform spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-08].
<RikCabanier> shepazu: sorry, CR in May seems arbitrary
<RikCabanier> dirk: the CSS working group will bring up issues in the meeting
<RikCabanier> dirk: and if there are none, it will be accepted in may
<RikCabanier> shepazu: when is last call supposed to be?
<cyril> especially when it says "The merge is in progress and the specification is not yet ready for review."
<RikCabanier> plinss: that is what we want too. If we drop prefixes early, we want to see proof that the implementations are identical
<shepazu> scribenick: shepazu
shepazu: I want to make sure that we aren't putting the cart before the horse… dropping vendor prefixes should be done after there are functional signs of stability and interoperability, like a full test suite and implementation report, not an arbitrary point of progress along the Rec track
plinss: yes, that's also one of our criteria… but we do want to go to CR for the patent commitments
shepazu: ok, I agree with that
trackbot, end telcon
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/we/Daniel Holbert/ Succeeded: s/I have to test it on an internal build/tested in Opera 12, seems that SMIL wins over the css transitions/ Succeeded: s/ I have an action to come up with an example/ I have an action to commit some examples of converted SVG 1.1 animation tests using the js testing framework/ Succeeded: s/svg directly/svg paths directly/ Succeeded: s/that you can't use plain SVG/that the css testing framework documentation said you can't use plain SVG/ Succeeded: s/recommend?/recommend, going with the html:head structure, or keep and extend the existing svg test metadata?/ Succeeded: s/repository /svg2-tests repository / Succeeded: s/shepherd/test repository/ Succeeded: s/manifest/spec section manifest/ Succeeded: s/topic/topic:/ Succeeded: s/keyword // Succeeded: s/CR in May is impossible/CR in May seems arbitrary/ Found ScribeNick: cabanier Found ScribeNick: shepazu Inferring Scribes: cabanier, shepazu Scribes: cabanier, shepazu ScribeNicks: cabanier, shepazu Default Present: plinss, cabanier, [IPcaller], heycam, krit, ed, [Microsoft], Tav, cyril, Doug_Schepers Present: plinss cabanier [IPcaller] heycam krit ed [Microsoft] Tav cyril Doug_Schepers Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0139.html Found Date: 01 Mar 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html People with action items: cabanier cameron tav WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]
