IRC log of svg on 2012-03-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:40 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:59:40 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc
19:59:42 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
19:59:42 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #svg
19:59:44 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:59:44 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:45 [trackbot]: Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:59:45 [trackbot]: Date: 01 March 2012
20:00:20 [plinss]: zakim, code?
20:00:20 [Zakim]: the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plinss
20:00:53 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has now started
20:01:00 [Zakim]: +plinss
20:01:12 [cabanier]: cabanier has joined #svg
20:02:03 [Zakim]: +cabanier
20:02:06 [Zakim]: -plinss
20:02:07 [Zakim]: +plinss
20:02:20 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:02:22 [heycam]: Zakim, [ is me
20:02:22 [Zakim]: +heycam; got it
20:02:30 [heycam]: Zakim, who is on the call?
20:02:30 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, cabanier, heycam
20:02:35 [Zakim]: +krit
20:02:59 [Zakim]: +??P5
20:03:08 [ed]: Zakim, ??PP5 is me
20:03:08 [Zakim]: sorry, ed, I do not recognize a party named '??PP5'
20:03:14 [ed]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:03:14 [Zakim]: +ed; got it
20:03:22 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
20:03:39 [ed]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0139.html
20:03:48 [ed]: chair: ed
20:03:57 [ed]: Zakim, pick a scribe
20:03:57 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cabanier
20:04:50 [cabanier]: scribenick: cabanier
20:05:10 [ed]: Zakim, who's here?
20:05:10 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, cabanier, heycam, krit, ed, [Microsoft]
20:05:16 [jen]: jen has joined #svg
20:05:53 [cabanier]: topic: the animation sandwich model/presentation attributes
20:05:53 [krit]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/att-0083/sandwich-svg.svg
20:06:03 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0083.html
20:06:10 [Zakim]: +Tav
20:06:53 [cabanier]: dirk: the question: should SVG be on top of CSS animation or the other way around
20:07:05 [ed]: Zakim, who is noisy?
20:07:16 [Zakim]: ed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (81%), Tav (52%)
20:07:26 [cabanier]: cameron: can you summarize?
20:08:27 [cabanier]: dirk: in the model you see the CSS change the intrinsic style? How do you apply SVG animation on top of that?
20:08:38 [Zakim]: +cyril
20:08:46 [Zakim]: -Tav
20:08:59 [cyril]: cyril has joined #svg
20:09:26 [cyril]: RRSAgent, pointer
20:09:26 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc#T20-09-26
20:09:29 [cabanier]: cabanier: Brian, Shane and I have been having talks about how to progress animations
20:09:30 [Zakim]: +Tav
20:09:53 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0084.html says that the CSS animations overrides in gecko
20:10:01 [cabanier]: cabanier: we were thinking that maybe there should be the ability to specify the order that animations are applied
20:10:41 [cabanier]: cameron: you mean that the order lets you mix svg and css animation?
20:10:44 [cabanier]: cabanier: yes
20:10:59 [cabanier]: cabanier: that's an idea we discussed
20:11:58 [cabanier]: cameron: with the sandwich model you look at document order
20:13:02 [cabanier]: dirk: yes. if the animations are applied on the same time, then document is chosen
20:13:18 [cabanier]: cameron: so is the proposal for both SVG and CSS
20:13:24 [cabanier]: cabanier: yes
20:13:50 [cabanier]: dirk: mozilla currently divides them
20:14:52 [cabanier]: dirk: the problem with specifiyng an order is that they run into different time container
20:15:02 [cabanier]: cabanier: yes, we're aware of that
20:15:47 [cabanier]: cabanier: it's not a complete proposal at this point.
20:16:35 [cabanier]: cabanier: just something we were thinking about this week
20:16:53 [cabanier]: cabanier: we're hoping to have a proposal by the Hamburg F2F
20:17:01 [cabanier]: dirk: I believe that will be too late.
20:17:12 [cabanier]: dirk: do you have something in the mean time that works?
20:17:43 [cabanier]: cabanier: I think what you propose now is reasonable
20:18:24 [cabanier]: cameron: I think I'm OK with that as well. So you can specify behavior if you don't have the new keyword
20:18:38 [cabanier]: cameron: that way we're also not held up by the new css spec
20:18:59 [cabanier]: dirk: In the mean time, shoud the CSS animation mention SMIL
20:19:03 [cabanier]: cameron/cabanier: no
20:20:02 [cabanier]: cameron: are the notes of the animation meeting online?
20:20:13 [cabanier]: cabanier: yes, they are on the w3 server
20:20:37 [cabanier]: meeting notes: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings
20:20:59 [cabanier]: cabanier: overview: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations
20:21:16 [cabanier]: ed: do we have a resolution
20:21:43 [cabanier]: dirk: should we say that CSS animation don't mention SMIL?
20:21:47 [cabanier]: cabanier: yes
20:22:04 [cabanier]: cabanier: and your proposed order is reasonable
20:22:23 [cabanier]: dirk: I believe it's OK to leave that unspecified at the moment
20:22:43 [cabanier]: cameron: so how do other browsers than firefox do this?
20:23:03 [cabanier]: dirk: we just landed a path to match WebKit with FireFox
20:23:11 [cabanier]: cameron: and opera?
20:23:24 [heycam]: ed, http://people.mozilla.org/~dholbert/tests/smil/compat_tests/transitionsVsSMIL_v1.svg
20:23:25 [cabanier]: ed: I don't know. Is there a test?
20:23:32 [cabanier]: dirk: yes, we supplied one
20:23:56 [krit]: s/we/Daniel Holbert/
20:24:13 [cabanier]: ed: I have to test it on an internal build
20:25:11 [cabanier]: cameron: It seems that we're in a situation that the public versions are different
20:25:41 [cabanier]: cabanier: if everyone converging, shouldn't that become the standard?
20:25:55 [cabanier]: cameron/ed/Dirk: that would be OK for me
20:26:35 [ed]: s/I have to test it on an internal build/tested in Opera 12, seems that SMIL wins over the css transitions/
20:27:21 [cabanier]: cameron: to be sure: this is only when CSS and SMIL start at the same time
20:28:19 [cabanier]: cameron: is it ignoring the start times of the SVG or the CSS?
20:28:45 [cabanier]: cameron: if there are CSS and SVG, SVG will always come second and CSS first
20:28:53 [cabanier]: cameron: regardless of start time
20:30:55 [cabanier]: action: cabanier to come up with a solution to specify ordering of animations
20:30:55 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-3241 - Come up with a solution to specify ordering of animations [on Rik Cabanier - due 2012-03-08].
20:31:27 [cabanier]: topic: testing requirements
20:31:29 [ed]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
20:31:36 [Zakim]: +Doug_Schepers
20:32:20 [cabanier]: dirk: for SMIL animations, we need JavaScript
20:32:38 [cabanier]: ed: I agree. I have an action to come up with an example
20:32:47 [cabanier]: ed: this is something we do internally
20:33:23 [cabanier]: cameron: we set the current animation time and look at the current values
20:33:42 [ed]: s/ I have an action to come up with an example/ I have an action to commit some examples of converted SVG 1.1 animation tests using the js testing framework/
20:33:54 [cabanier]: cameron: tav has an action on this
20:34:23 [cabanier]: cameron: is this easily doable or does it require a lot of work?
20:34:53 [cabanier]: tav: currently it is set up to test for environments that don't have javascript
20:35:09 [cabanier]: tav: we like the test to have links so you can link to the spec (and vice versa)
20:36:10 [cabanier]: tav: (going over the test suite)
20:36:20 [cabanier]: tav: we have limited tests for CSS
20:36:47 [cabanier]: tav: you have tests that require pixel perfect result
20:37:01 [cabanier]: tav: for certain tests, we don't require that (ie gradients)
20:38:37 [cabanier]: cameron: last time we looked, the automation wasn't there
20:39:21 [cabanier]: dirk: you want to have it cross browser
20:39:37 [cabanier]: dirk: can you use the canvas tag/
20:39:51 [cabanier]: plinss: some people have looked into that
20:40:24 [cabanier]: shepazu: hixie is looking into ways to draw svg directly into canvas
20:40:45 [cabanier]: shepazu: you could draw the same SVG and canvas using the same API
20:40:50 [ed]: s/svg directly/svg paths directly/
20:40:58 [cabanier]: shepazu: for a vast majority of content
20:41:14 [krit]: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html
20:41:32 [heycam]: This is with drawImage
20:42:34 [cabanier]: cameron: it works as long as you don't have external references
20:43:07 [cabanier]: cabanier: I believe it's the same in webkit
20:43:15 [cabanier]: dirk: I have to check that
20:43:45 [cabanier]: cameron: automation would be quite beneficial
20:44:23 [cabanier]: plinss: you could set it up so that you can say that a test must matchs all references or any
20:44:37 [cabanier]: plinss: so you can have browser specific reference files
20:44:53 [cabanier]: cameron: how are css animations tested?
20:45:03 [cabanier]: plinss: we don't have any
20:46:50 [cabanier]: ed: do you want to add more to the wiki page tav?
20:47:03 [cabanier]: ed: for example, that you can't use plain SVG?
20:47:18 [cabanier]: tav: we can look at the script and see if you can use plain svg
20:47:32 [cabanier]: plinss: that should not be a problem
20:47:54 [cabanier]: ed: the metadata was supposed to be a HTML
20:48:20 [cabanier]: plinss: the harnass itself doesn't really care where the data comes from
20:49:27 [cabanier]: tav: can you extract the metadata from the SVG itself
20:49:41 [ed]: s/that you can't use plain SVG/that the css testing framework documentation said you can't use plain SVG/
20:50:10 [cabanier]: pllins: if it's XML, we open it and look HTML namespace head element inside of it
20:50:42 [cabanier]: plinsss: I parse the file and create the DOM and look for the head tag and expect the metadata to be there
20:51:06 [cabanier]: tav: right now it's all in the namespace "d"
20:51:25 [ed]: here's an example: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/animate-dom-01-f.svg
20:51:31 [cabanier]: plinss: if you use it consistently, it would be trivial to add to the build system
20:51:38 [cabanier]: tav: how would I find this?
20:51:50 [cabanier]: plinss: there is no good documentation on how to set it up
20:52:05 [plinss]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/harness
20:52:22 [cabanier]: plinss: this is our wiki that has everything you need
20:52:34 [plinss]: http://hg.csswg.org/test
20:52:52 [plinss]: http://hg.csswg.org/test/file/tip/tools
20:53:27 [plinss]: http://hg.csswg.org/dev/w3ctestlib/
20:54:12 [cabanier]: ed: what would you recommend?
20:54:26 [cabanier]: plinss: whatever is convenient
20:54:48 [cabanier]: plinss: it would be easiest if the metadata itself is the same
20:54:53 [plinss]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format
20:55:16 [ed]: s/recommend?/recommend, going with the html:head structure, or keep and extend the existing svg test metadata?/
20:56:40 [cabanier]: plinss: what you wrap it in is not relevant
20:56:56 [cabanier]: plinss: but it would be easiest if the data itself is similar
20:57:08 [cabanier]: cameron: we should be able to do it
20:57:30 [plinss]: http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/
20:57:58 [cabanier]: plinss: it's like a bugzilla for your testsuite
20:58:25 [cabanier]: cameron: pretty cool
20:59:12 [cabanier]: plinss: it shows your revision history, who approved the tests, flags tests as needing work, etc
20:59:26 [cabanier]: plinss: it's still in development but you can use it now
21:00:09 [cabanier]: tav: where would the SVG test suite be located?
21:00:29 [cabanier]: plinss: you set up your own repository and shepherd will refer to it
21:00:38 [heycam]: there's an empty repo here: http://svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tests/
21:00:40 [cabanier]: ed: we already have a repository
21:01:13 [ed]: s/repository /svg2-tests repository /
21:03:23 [RikCabanier]: RikCabanier has joined #svg
21:03:55 [plinss]: http://w3c-test.org/framework/
21:05:51 [RikCabanier]: (discussion on using shepherd)
21:06:35 [RikCabanier]: s/shepherd/test repository
21:06:35 [plinss]: http://hg.csswg.org/test
21:09:02 [Zakim]: -Tav
21:09:39 [Zakim]: +Tav
21:09:44 [RikCabanier]: ed: I propose that we move to this structure
21:09:52 [RikCabanier]: cameron: I agree
21:09:57 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
21:10:25 [RikCabanier]: action: cameron to create directories in the SVG2 test repository
21:10:26 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-3242 - Create directories in the SVG2 test repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-08].
21:10:58 [RikCabanier]: plinss: within the approved directory, there's a data and src directory
21:11:16 [RikCabanier]: plinss: src has the test and data contains the manifest files
21:12:28 [RikCabanier]: action: tav to mirror css test metadata setup in SVG and come up with a template for new tests
21:12:28 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-3243 - Mirror css test metadata setup in SVG and come up with a template for new tests [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-03-08].
21:12:37 [plinss]: s/manifest/spec section manifest/
21:14:52 [krit]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transforms/
21:14:58 [krit]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
21:15:47 [krit]: topic CSS3 Transforms WD does not cover SVG changes
21:15:53 [heycam]: s/topic/topic:/
21:16:16 [RikCabanier]: RikCabanier has joined #svg
21:16:52 [RikCabanier]: dirk: since the published draft is wrong, I need to ask everyone to approve a new working draft
21:17:36 [RikCabanier]: cyril: I don't see a difference
21:17:47 [RikCabanier]: dirk: look at chapter 7
21:17:53 [RikCabanier]: cyril: o I see
21:18:50 [RikCabanier]: cameron: what is the current thinking on adding the SVG keyword to the CSS spec?
21:20:14 [RikCabanier]: cameron: are people happy to include it in the spec?
21:20:29 [heycam]: s/keyword //
21:20:45 [RikCabanier]: dirk: absolutely
21:21:18 [RikCabanier]: dirk: there are concerns that it slows down, but I'm committed to advancing it quickly
21:21:30 [RikCabanier]: dirk: we can go to CR in May
21:21:58 [ed]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#svg-transform
21:22:10 [RikCabanier]: action: cameron to review section 7 in new CSS transform spec
21:22:10 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-3244 - Review section 7 in new CSS transform spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-08].
21:22:34 [RikCabanier]: shepazu: sorry, CR in May is impossible
21:22:41 [Zakim]: -heycam
21:23:08 [RikCabanier]: dirk: the CSS working group will bring up issues in the meeting
21:23:24 [RikCabanier]: dirk: and if there are none, it will be accepted in may
21:23:37 [RikCabanier]: shepazu: when is last call supposed to be?
21:24:07 [cyril]: especially when it says "The merge is in progress and the specification is not yet ready for review."
21:30:40 [RikCabanier]: RikCabanier has joined #svg
21:30:52 [RikCabanier]: plinss: that is what we want too. If we drop prefixes early, we want to see proof that the implementations are identical
21:33:01 [Zakim]: -ed
21:33:03 [Zakim]: -Doug_Schepers
21:33:06 [Zakim]: -krit
21:33:08 [Zakim]: -cyril
21:33:08 [Zakim]: -Tav
21:33:09 [Zakim]: -cabanier
21:33:09 [Zakim]: -plinss
21:33:09 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended
21:33:09 [Zakim]: Attendees were plinss, cabanier, [IPcaller], heycam, krit, ed, [Microsoft], Tav, cyril, Doug_Schepers
21:33:22 [shepazu]: s/CR in May is impossible/CR in May seems arbitrary/
21:33:32 [shepazu]: scribenick: shepazu
21:35:01 [cabanier]: cabanier has joined #svg
21:35:29 [shepazu]: shepazu: I want to make sure that we aren't putting the cart before the horse… dropping vendor prefixes should be done after there are functional signs of stability and interoperability, like a full test suite and implementation report, not an arbitrary point of progress along the Rec track
21:35:57 [shepazu]: plinss: yes, that's also one of our criteria… but we do want to go to CR for the patent commitments
21:36:06 [shepazu]: shepazu: ok, I agree with that
21:36:22 [shepazu]: trackbot, end telcon
21:36:22 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
21:36:22 [Zakim]: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
21:36:30 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:36:30 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:36:31 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-actions.rdf :
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: cabanier to come up with a solution to specify ordering of animations [1]
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc#T20-30-55
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: cameron to create directories in the SVG2 test repository [2]
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc#T21-10-25
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: tav to mirror css test metadata setup in SVG and come up with a template for new tests [3]
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc#T21-12-28
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: cameron to review section 7 in new CSS transform spec [4]
21:36:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc#T21-22-10