IRC log of swcg on 2012-01-11
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-swcg-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs world
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- Zakim, this will be 7924
- 13:09:10 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_CG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
- 13:09:11 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Teleconference
- 13:09:11 [trackbot]
- Date: 11 January 2012
- 13:09:33 [ivan]
- ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/E8953715-5AD9-49ED-AEEF-CCE8E1E892B2@w3.org
- 13:10:05 [ivan]
- Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Telco
- 13:10:08 [ivan]
- Chair: Ivan
- 13:10:12 [ivan]
- Regrets: Paul
- 13:40:05 [Guus]
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- 13:52:30 [mhausenblas]
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- 13:52:41 [Luc]
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- 13:57:54 [Guus]
- [DanBri and I are in Milan, but are connection is too slow/unreliable to join effectively, I'm afraid]
- 13:58:27 [Ashok_Malhotra]
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- 13:58:30 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 13:58:30 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
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- SW_CG()9:00AM has now started
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- +Ivan
- 13:58:34 [LeeF]
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- +LeeF
- 13:59:16 [Zakim]
- +Ashok_Malhotra
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- +Luc
- 13:59:29 [Zakim]
- +mhausenblas
- 14:00:12 [Zakim]
- +sandro
- 14:00:28 [Zakim]
- + +1.860.326.aaaa
- 14:00:43 [ivan]
- zakim, aaaa is Vijay
- 14:00:43 [Zakim]
- +Vijay; got it
- 14:01:43 [ivan]
- zakim, who is noisy
- 14:01:43 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is noisy', ivan
- 14:01:49 [ivan]
- zakim, who is noisy?
- 14:01:49 [Luc]
- it was me ;-)
- 14:02:00 [Zakim]
- ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ashok_Malhotra (9%), mhausenblas (30%), sandro (35%)
- 14:03:29 [Zakim]
- +davidwood
- 14:03:48 [bhyland]
- Good morning Ivan
- 14:03:57 [ivan]
- zakim, davidwood also has bhyland
- 14:03:57 [Zakim]
- +bhyland; got it
- 14:04:18 [sandro]
- scribe: sandro
- 14:05:05 [ivan]
- Topic: admin
- 14:05:11 [ivan]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-minutes.html minutes of last meeting
- 14:05:32 [bhyland]
- bhyland has joined #swcg
- 14:05:32 [mhausenblas]
- +1
- 14:05:45 [ivan]
- Topic: next meeting
- 14:05:52 [sandro]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-minutes.html as minutes of last week
- 14:05:57 [sandro]
- s/meet/meeting/
- 14:06:01 [ivan]
- 2012 jan 25
- 14:06:23 [ivan]
- Topic: congrats
- 14:06:24 [sandro]
- next script: tom or david
- 14:06:36 [sandro]
- regrets for next next meeting from me and Bern.
- 14:07:00 [sandro]
- ivan: congrats
- 14:07:11 [sandro]
- ivan: RDFa, SPARQL, ...
- 14:07:16 [sandro]
- ivan: Provenance
- 14:07:25 [sandro]
- ivan: prov-o and prov-primer FPWD
- 14:07:31 [Luc]
- thanks, Ivan
- 14:07:41 [ivan]
- Topic: FPWD intro
- 14:08:11 [sandro]
- ivan: RDFa lite. alas, no Manu today.
- 14:08:41 [sandro]
- ... you probably heard about the schema.org discussions, happy ending is this simple subset of RDFa
- 14:09:07 [sandro]
- ... a few attributes, and some advice to publishers, to stick to these simple attributes for simple things.
- 14:09:17 [sandro]
- ... cannot set datatypes or do complex structures
- 14:09:21 [sandro]
- ... for simple things it's very simple
- 14:09:32 [sandro]
- ... similar complexity to microdata
- 14:10:07 [sandro]
- ... schema.org has publically said they will encourage their users to use RDFa lite
- 14:10:30 [sandro]
- ... will encourage to the same degree as microdata
- 14:10:45 [sandro]
- davidwood: Alas, that's not actually reflected in their documentation yet.
- 14:11:20 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:11:24 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Baker (was [IPcaller])
- 14:12:52 [sandro]
- ivan: Goal is for RDFa lite to be its own Recommendation. For people authoring RDFa, it should stand on its own.
- 14:13:23 [Luc]
- Provenance Data Model (prov-dm): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/
- 14:13:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]
- Jeni Tennison ran a tak force on RDFa and Microdata
- 14:13:25 [Guus]
- about RDFa & schema.org: DanBi is very optimistic, but he suggests not to shout about it yet
- 14:13:38 [Ashok_Malhotra]
- s/tak/task/
- 14:13:41 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-aq/ http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/
- 14:13:43 [Luc]
- Provenance Ontology (prov-o): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/
- 14:14:06 [sandro]
- sandro: prov-o is a mapping of prov data model to OWL 2
- 14:14:07 [Luc]
- Provenance Primer (prov-primer): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/
- 14:14:30 [Luc]
- Provenance Access and Query (prov-aq): http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-aq/
- 14:14:57 [sandro]
- luc: Once you have obtained a resource, aq tells you how to find out about its provenance.
- 14:15:11 [sandro]
- ... including SPARQL querying
- 14:15:13 [ivan]
- q+
- 14:15:19 [sandro]
- ack ivan
- 14:15:59 [sandro]
- ivan: On prov-aq it raises some concern, because there has been a lot of discussion of HTTP protocols, SPARQL REST, Linked Data Platform
- 14:16:19 [sandro]
- ... have you checked/seen/sync'd about all that?
- 14:16:32 [sandro]
- ... eg in LDP charter, ways to get info about datasets through HTTP.
- 14:17:08 [sandro]
- Luc: I'm aware of HTTP protocol for SPARQL. Not sure about other points.
- 14:17:34 [sandro]
- ... it would be useful to get feedback from other WGs
- 14:17:59 [sandro]
- ... to see how what we're proposing integrates with other systems
- 14:18:10 [sandro]
- Luc: any specific people
- 14:18:24 [LeeF]
- Sandro is at the nexus of all of this :-D
- 14:19:04 [sandro]
- sandro: I'll probably review at least while I'm en route to Prov F2F
- 14:19:58 [sandro]
- lee: I'll ask the SPARQL group for volunteers to review http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-aq/
- 14:20:18 [LeeF]
- "503 Service Unavailable"
- 14:20:27 [sandro]
- sandro: rdf wg too
- 14:20:45 [LeeF]
- better now
- 14:20:58 [Zakim]
- -Vijay
- 14:20:58 [sandro]
- luc: not the right time yet. we haven't settled our notion of "accounts", which is likely to related to named graphs
- 14:21:04 [LeeF]
- yup
- 14:22:17 [sandro]
- Prov F2F in Amsterdam Feb 2/3.
- 14:22:24 [ivan]
- Topic: Linked Data WG, Workshop
- 14:22:58 [mhausenblas]
- q+ to ask re time line and chairs
- 14:23:23 [sandro]
- ivan: I heard Linked Data Patterns workshop was lively and good
- 14:23:49 [davidwood]
- Linked Enterprise Data Patterns Workshop: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/
- 14:24:02 [davidwood]
- Workshop report: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/Report
- 14:24:11 [sandro]
- ivan: advance notice went to AC that we are working on this.
- 14:24:15 [ivan]
- -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2011OctDec/0064.html announcement to the AC
- 14:24:17 [davidwood]
- TimBL also attended both days
- 14:24:44 [ivan]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2012/01/ldwg-charter.html very initial charter
- 14:24:49 [sandro]
- ivan: I tried to summarize from the outside what I saw as a possible initial charter
- 14:25:47 [sandro]
- davidwood: Cochairs were Ashok, Arnaud, and myself, with lots of help from EricP
- 14:25:59 [sandro]
- davidwood: Martin Nally, CTO of IBM Rational
- 14:26:11 [sandro]
- david: Brad Allen from Elsevier
- 14:26:27 [sandro]
- ... enterprise participation
- 14:26:46 [sandro]
- ... theory was that as enterprises began to use Linked Data techniques internally, to solve problems,
- 14:26:54 [sandro]
- ... they would fall into same problems/patterns
- 14:27:04 [sandro]
- ... 1. data integration
- 14:27:27 [sandro]
- ... integration of enterprise software, never meant to work together, but with APIs
- 14:27:40 [sandro]
- ... lingua franca without enterprise service bus
- 14:27:48 [sandro]
- ... this is what IBM Rational is doing
- 14:28:02 [sandro]
- ... others are doing just data integration.
- 14:28:11 [sandro]
- ... workshop reports lists some of the useful patterns
- 14:28:19 [sandro]
- ... see position papers for the rest
- 14:28:19 [davidwood]
- Workshop papers: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/Papers
- 14:28:50 [Guus]
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- 14:28:57 [LeeF]
- auth/auth
- 14:29:17 [sandro]
- davidwood: Eg, how do people do authentication and authorization?
- 14:29:32 [sandro]
- ... people are still thinking in their enterprise mentality, not the Web way
- 14:29:50 [sandro]
- ... clear exceptions to that, but avg enterprise is mired in older solutions
- 14:30:24 [sandro]
- ... once we got to thinking Web way, we got into some patterns about how to update data, separate data from metadata, patch information
- 14:30:40 [sandro]
- ... surprosing interest in defining exactly what Linked Data means in an enterprise context
- 14:30:47 [sandro]
- ... defining a Minimal Linked Data service
- 14:31:21 [sandro]
- Ashok_Malhotra: What was really wonderful was that we had people there USING linked data to do REAL and complicated things
- 14:31:28 [davidwood]
- +1 to Ashok
- 14:31:33 [sandro]
- ... and they were running into some difficulties
- 14:31:54 [Zakim]
- +George
- 14:31:58 [sandro]
- ... the IBM folks had come up with some ideas about extending REST, doing different ATOM-linke things with RDF
- 14:32:22 [davidwood]
- IBM also said that DB2 will support RDF "sometime in 2012"
- 14:32:22 [sandro]
- ... the feeling was that we ought to be able to look at these patterns, these people's experiences, then codify them. Write them down, to help other people
- 14:32:33 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 14:35:08 [sandro]
- sandro: It was very exciting to see this RDF+REST as universal API theory finally manifest as real products
- 14:35:21 [ivan]
- ack mhausenblas
- 14:35:21 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas, you wanted to ask re time line and chairs
- 14:35:23 [sandro]
- bern: this should be a keynote at SemTech SF for Martin Nally
- 14:35:25 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: Two remarks and questions re the upcoming LD WG - 1. questions re timeline and chairs, 2. liaison/alignment with http://www.w3.org/community/networked-data/
- 14:36:56 [bhyland]
- Correction: I suggested to Tony that there be a keynote at SemTech West by the three co-chairs from the Linking Enterprise Data Patterns workshop, namely Ashok Malhotra, Arnaud Le Hors (IBM) and Dave Wood.
- 14:37:27 [sandro]
- ivan: prelim timeline is workshop report to come out this week
- 14:37:28 [bhyland]
- Shortly after I suggested this to Tony, I heard Dave & Ashok spoke and Martin Nally has been approached for the keynote
- 14:37:55 [bhyland]
- by Tony presumably.
- 14:37:56 [sandro]
- ivan: Ian Jacobs did an interview with Arnaud, also for publication this week
- 14:38:21 [sandro]
- ivan: when & how consensus on charter?
- 14:38:44 [sandro]
- ivan: possibly to AC by end of month... maybe.... voting takes a month.
- 14:38:53 [sandro]
- ivan: Could potentially start in March.
- 14:38:54 [sandro]
- q+
- 14:39:13 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 14:40:00 [ivan]
- ack sandro
- 14:40:47 [sandro]
- sandro: Member submission expected from IBM.
- 14:40:59 [sandro]
- ashok: It requires some legal agreements, holding us up.
- 14:41:22 [sandro]
- sandro: So I think Ivan's timeline may be somewhat optimistic given that.
- 14:41:42 [davidwood]
- Networked Data Community Group: http://www.w3.org/community/networked-data/
- 14:42:56 [sandro]
- ivan: This community group is interesting.
- 14:43:23 [sandro]
- ivan: Ideally, my preference would be this CG folks into WG, if the WG materializes
- 14:43:49 [sandro]
- mhausenblas: Makes sense.
- 14:44:13 [sandro]
- ivan: The draft charter should be member visible or public soon
- 14:44:31 [sandro]
- ivan: So this is a time the CG can give us the comments, to make that synergy easier
- 14:45:44 [sandro]
- ... on the charter itself, based on my reading of some of the emails, so I'd like feedback about whether this really reflects what was discussed there. feedback, please!
- 14:45:55 [sandro]
- ... comments in email are welcome too, of course
- 14:46:07 [sandro]
- Ashok_Malhotra: I have a couple of comments
- 14:46:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]
- "provide a standard environment"
- 14:46:31 [sandro]
- ... I think it's a reasonable charter. On thing jumped out at me: "provide a standard environment"
- 14:46:42 [sandro]
- ... it sounds like we're building a development envionrment
- 14:46:50 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: One quick comment re the charter ... copy & paste error in section 10: "This charter for the Government Linked Data Working Group ..."
- 14:46:52 [sandro]
- ... and we're not. we're just codifying some patterns.
- 14:47:04 [sandro]
- ... so "standard environment" is slightly misleading.
- 14:47:32 [sandro]
- ... and as David pointed out, one of the big problems we're going after is Application Integration, and that's not here.
- 14:47:54 [sandro]
- ivan: Can one of you guys suggest, soon, some language to help make that clear?
- 14:48:19 [sandro]
- ... I learned today that the software integration part is not clear in the charter, and should be made clearer.
- 14:48:34 [sandro]
- ... I'm not sure how to exactly formulate that.
- 14:48:50 [mhausenblas]
- q+ to add two comments re the content
- 14:49:21 [LeeF]
- This is my big concern as well!!
- 14:50:01 [sandro]
- ... one more thing: I don't want this to crowd out the other Semantic Web work, or to make people concerned that it might
- 14:50:02 [bhyland]
- q+
- 14:50:04 [ivan]
- ack mhausenblas
- 14:50:04 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas, you wanted to add two comments re the content
- 14:50:05 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: re "Define a mechanism for advertizing SPARQL endpoints" ... 1. new HTTP headers are costly, almost impossible to *deploy on the Web*. 2. re SPARQL SD and VoID
- 14:50:47 [Luc]
- q+ to ask if provenance should be mentioned
- 14:51:11 [sandro]
- mhausenblas: I don't see a reason to define a new vocab here...
- 14:52:27 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:MH-1
- 14:53:39 [ivan]
- ack bhyland
- 14:53:43 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 14:53:51 [sandro]
- sandro: mhausenblas let's you and I take this off line and see if we can make this service description bit happen within SPARQL.
- 14:54:06 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: I agree and thanks for this, Sandro
- 14:54:27 [sandro]
- bhyland: This WG is about the use of Linked Data in Enterprise, and with Patterns.
- 14:54:43 [ivan]
- q?
- 14:54:53 [sandro]
- bhyland: I associate with "Linked Data" a certain set of stuff, and we don't want to throw all this at them.
- 14:55:10 [sandro]
- bhyland: GLD is very prescriptive, esp on Linked Open Data.
- 14:55:11 [sandro]
- q+
- 14:55:20 [sandro]
- q+ to say "Linked Data Platform"
- 14:55:56 [sandro]
- bhyland: needs to be narrowed down from all of "Linked Data". comm group also very broard.
- 14:56:36 [sandro]
- bhyland: Charter needs some iteration to get the focus clear. Enterprise product managers to be involved.
- 14:56:37 [ivan]
- ace Luc
- 14:56:38 [LeeF]
- FWIW, I thought that at the workshop there was a great deal of non-enterprise linked data stuff (in addition to some enterprise linked data stuff)
- 14:56:41 [sandro]
- ack Luc
- 14:56:41 [Zakim]
- Luc, you wanted to ask if provenance should be mentioned
- 14:56:51 [sandro]
- Luc: Was there any mention of provenance?
- 14:57:31 [sandro]
- luc: Prov WG wont standardize everything; maybe this group needs to do some for Prov with linked data.
- 14:58:13 [sandro]
- davidwood: There was lots of talk, the desire for Prov. Revelytix talk covered it a bit. It would be interesting, but how it fits into the charter isn't clear to me.
- 14:58:51 [sandro]
- luc: I don't have concrete ideas at this stage, but it would be interesting.
- 14:59:31 [sandro]
- ivan: One of the threads of this charter ... (lost)
- 14:59:39 [ivan]
- ack sandro
- 14:59:39 [Zakim]
- sandro, you wanted to say "Linked Data Platform"
- 15:00:05 [sandro]
- luc: rev doing prov-o spec
- 15:01:11 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/REST
- 15:01:21 [bhyland]
- Sandro: Balancing technical ideas for this proposed group and W3C role. RDF + REST as "universal API", a new version of a distributed object system (without baggage).
- 15:01:53 [sandro]
- sandro: That's my intution for the kind of thing the group should be producing.
- 15:02:28 [sandro]
- ivan: Sandro and I will work on this, going forward.
- 15:02:51 [sandro]
- ivan: When we get to member feedback, we will need a good address list of people we should be sure know about this work,.
- 15:02:57 [davidwood]
- I just mailed the LD WG mailing list noting that we need language for the inclusion of software/application integration: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp/2012Jan/0000.html
- 15:03:22 [sandro]
- ivan: If you know of folks who should be involved, be sure to let us know, please.
- 15:03:38 [bhyland]
- What I really like about this proposed group is that it commercial companies solving real complex problems with RDF and RESTful approach. Very cool. Congrats to all that attended & are moving this forward :-)
- 15:04:02 [sandro]
- ivan: There is a mailing list, for comments on the charter: public-ldp@w3.org
- 15:04:21 [Zakim]
- -Luc
- 15:04:21 [bhyland]
- bye all.
- 15:04:22 [Zakim]
- -Tom_Baker
- 15:04:24 [Zakim]
- -George
- 15:04:27 [Zakim]
- -LeeF
- 15:04:29 [Zakim]
- -Ashok_Malhotra
- 15:04:31 [Zakim]
- -davidwood
- 15:04:53 [Zakim]
- -mhausenblas
- 15:06:51 [sandro]
- mhausenblas, email for now please.
- 15:07:18 [mhausenblas]
- OK
- 15:20:15 [Zakim]
- -sandro
- 15:20:17 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 15:20:17 [Zakim]
- SW_CG()9:00AM has ended
- 15:20:19 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Ivan, LeeF, Ashok_Malhotra, Luc, mhausenblas, sandro, +1.860.326.aaaa, Vijay, davidwood, bhyland, Tom_Baker, George
- 15:23:13 [ivan]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:23:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-swcg-minutes.html ivan