Provenance and RDF Graphs -- Coordination Telecon

Minutes of 15 September 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15
Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Kai Eckert, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Scott Bauer, Ted Thibodeau, Yolanda Gil
Guests
Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Kai Eckert, Paolo Missier, Satya Sahoo, Yolanda Gil
Scribe
Satya Sahoo, Sandro Hawke
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
16:11:04 <sandro> Guest: Luc Moreau
16:11:09 <sandro> Guest: Paul Groth
16:12:43 <sandro> guest: Kai (Kai_) Eckert
16:11:28 <sandro> guest: Paolo Missier
<sandro> Guest: Satya Sahoo
<sandro> Guest: Yolanda Gil
16:12:07 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

16:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-rdf-wg-irc

16:01:42 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public

16:02:01 <sandro> Meeting: Provenance and RDF Graphs -- Coordination Telecon
16:02:13 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfg

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdfg

16:02:17 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM

16:02:52 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Sept 15 -- Provenance Task Force -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Sept 15 -- Provenance Task Force -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15

16:02:58 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

16:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro

16:03:31 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

16:03:50 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer

16:03:51 <Zakim> +??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44

16:04:03 <sandro> zakim, ??P2 is Paul_Groth

Sandro Hawke: zakim, ??P2 is Paul_Groth

16:04:03 <Zakim> +Paul_Groth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paul_Groth; got it

16:04:09 <kai_> zakim, ??P4 is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P4 is me.

16:04:09 <Zakim> +kai_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai_; got it

16:04:58 <Zakim> +??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46

16:05:06 <AndyS> zakim, ??P46 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P46 is me

16:05:06 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:05:36 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

16:05:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS

16:06:07 <sandro> zakim, drop ??P0

Sandro Hawke: zakim, drop ??P0

16:06:07 <Zakim> ??P0 is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: ??P0 is being disconnected

16:06:09 <Zakim> -??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0

16:06:33 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

16:07:14 <Scott_Bauer> plans to attend: Antoine Zimmermann, Ted Thibodeau, Andy Seaborne, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris ** may attend: Ivan Herman, Scott Bauer, Pierre-Antoine Champin

Scott Bauer: plans to attend: Antoine Zimmermann, Ted Thibodeau, Andy Seaborne, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris ** may attend: Ivan Herman, Scott Bauer, Pierre-Antoine Champin

16:07:22 <gavinc> zakim, mute me

Gavin Carothers: zakim, mute me

16:07:23 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted

16:07:33 <Scott_Bauer> ok sorry

Scott Bauer: ok sorry

16:07:54 <pgroth> Luc Moreau, pgroth, Kai, Paolo, MacTed

Paul Groth: Luc Moreau, pgroth, Kai, Paolo, MacTed

16:08:19 <gavinc> I don't think Ralph is going to be here, wasn't sure last night

Gavin Carothers: I don't think Ralph is going to be here, wasn't sure last night

16:08:35 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

16:08:35 <AndyS> Agenda -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15

Andy Seaborne: Agenda -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15

16:09:29 <AndyS> Material -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph

Andy Seaborne: Material -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph

16:09:57 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

16:10:02 <sandro>     Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Kai Eckert, Paolo Missier, Ted Thibodeau

Sandro Hawke: Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Kai Eckert, Paolo Missier, Ted Thibodeau

16:10:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15#Admin

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15#Admin

16:10:48 <Zakim> +??P52

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P52

16:11:01 <Paolo> zakim, ??P52 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P52 is me

16:11:01 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

16:13:25 <Luc> @pgroth, is satya joining?

Luc Moreau: @pgroth, is satya joining?

16:13:34 <pgroth> I don't know

Paul Groth: I don't know

16:15:14 <pgroth> @Luc I have to leave in 40 minutes

Paul Groth: @Luc I have to leave in 40 minutes

16:15:36 <Luc> @pgroth OK

Luc Moreau: @pgroth OK

16:16:07 <Paolo> what's happening?

Paolo Missier: what's happening?

16:16:30 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

16:16:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood

16:16:44 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

16:17:02 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

16:17:27 <MacTed> Zakim, code?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code?

16:17:27 <Zakim> the conference code is 7334 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7334 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

16:17:32 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15
16:17:33 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:17:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:17:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:17:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:17:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:18:11 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

16:18:37 <pgroth> Scribe: Satya Sahoo

(Scribe set to Satya Sahoo)

16:19:07 <satya> Luc: Introductions for the provenance WG

Luc Moreau: Introductions for the provenance WG

16:19:49 <satya> Luc: After the first provenance WG F2F, started work on two working drafts

Luc Moreau: After the first provenance WG F2F, started work on two working drafts

16:20:17 <satya> Luc: 1. First working draft describes the provenance "conceptual model"

Luc Moreau: 1. First working draft describes the provenance "conceptual model"

16:20:54 <satya> Luc: 2. Second working draft describes encoding the provenance conceptual model in OWL2

Luc Moreau: 2. Second working draft describes encoding the provenance conceptual model in OWL2

16:21:26 <satya> Luc: 3. Third working draft describes the protocol for accessing and querying provenance information

Luc Moreau: 3. Third working draft describes the protocol for accessing and querying provenance information

16:22:24 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:22:25 <satya> Luc: In future, additional working drafts will be created including a Primer, XML encoding of the provenance conceptual model

Luc Moreau: In future, additional working drafts will be created including a Primer, XML encoding of the provenance conceptual model

16:22:53 <satya> Luc: questions?

Luc Moreau: questions?

16:23:15 <satya> David: The source of the requirement for encoding provenance model in XML?

David Wood: The source of the requirement for encoding provenance model in XML?

16:23:33 <sandro> luc: requirement for native XML serialization; some people want that; and JSON serialization.   Non-RDF.

Luc Moreau: requirement for native XML serialization; some people want that; and JSON serialization. Non-RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:23:38 <satya> Luc: There has been interest in non-RDF serialization

Luc Moreau: There has been interest in non-RDF serialization

16:23:45 <gavinc> I'm confused how needing a JSON seralization means we need an XML serialization

Gavin Carothers: I'm confused how needing a JSON seralization means we need an XML serialization

16:24:07 <sandro> :-)

Sandro Hawke: :-)

16:24:31 <sandro> paul: plan to refer to group of triples by a URI

Paul Groth: plan to refer to group of triples by a URI [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:24:31 <satya> David: can you please repeat your initial query

David, can you please repeat your initial query

16:24:37 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:24:40 <Luc> @gavinc, this is a separate requirement, sorry for not being clear

Luc Moreau: @gavinc, this is a separate requirement, sorry for not being clear

16:24:50 <sandro> s/David:/David,/
16:25:01 <AndyS> I heard that there was a need for straight XML (charter) and now Luc finds he needs JSON (as well, presumably)

Andy Seaborne: I heard that there was a need for straight XML (charter) and now Luc finds he needs JSON (as well, presumably)

16:25:13 <satya> David: Is there a assumption that a group of RDF triples need to be referred to using an URI?

David Wood: Is there a assumption that a group of RDF triples need to be referred to using an URI?

16:25:20 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:25:25 <satya> Paul: Yes to David's question

Paul Groth: Yes to David's question

16:25:31 <gavinc> Ah, okay thanks AndyS

Gavin Carothers: Ah, okay thanks AndyS

16:25:49 <Luc> thanks, AndyS

Luc Moreau: thanks, AndyS

16:25:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:25:56 <satya> Paul: In query and access document, discusses use of URLs

Paul Groth: In query and access document, discusses use of URLs

16:25:58 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:26:24 <davidwood> I understand that provenance concerns resources other than RDF :)

David Wood: I understand that provenance concerns resources other than RDF :)

16:27:01 <satya> Luc: Uses an example scenario regarding an HTML document, the user tries to retrieve the provenance of the HMTL document

Luc Moreau: Uses an example scenario regarding an HTML document, the user tries to retrieve the provenance of the HMTL document

16:27:24 <satya> Luc: Assume the use of HTTP for retrieving the provenance of the HTML document

Luc Moreau: Assume the use of HTTP for retrieving the provenance of the HTML document

16:28:00 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:29:02 <satya> David: assumes that the resource and the provenance are distinct and can be independently accessed?

David Wood: assumes that the resource and the provenance are distinct and can be independently accessed?

16:29:02 <sandro> davidwood: Can I have provancence of an XL spreadsheet without modifying the spreadsheet?

David Wood: Can I have provancence of an XL spreadsheet without modifying the spreadsheet? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:29:42 <sandro> gavin, I think you mean "can't *require* modifying...."

Sandro Hawke: gavin, I think you mean "can't *require* modifying...."

16:29:49 <gavinc> errr, yes.

Gavin Carothers: errr, yes.

16:29:52 <satya> Luc: There are several mechanism to access the provenance, a document may contain a reference to source to retrieve the provenance

Luc Moreau: There are several mechanism to access the provenance, a document may contain a reference to source to retrieve the provenance

16:29:55 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:29:56 <sandro> gavin, Luc is sayin that's one option.

Sandro Hawke: gavin, Luc is sayin that's one option.

16:30:13 <davidwood> RDF WG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdf-wg-charter

David Wood: RDF WG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdf-wg-charter

16:30:45 <satya> David: Describing RDF named graphs, as described in the RDF WG charter

David Wood: Describing RDF named graphs, as described in the RDF WG charter

16:31:11 <satya> David: The description in the RDF WG charter is not definitive, will be decided by the WG

David Wood: The description in the RDF WG charter is not definitive, will be decided by the WG

16:31:20 <davidwood> RDF WG requirements: Define terminology in relation to named graphs

David Wood: RDF WG requirements: Define terminology in relation to named graphs

16:31:26 <davidwood> "Standardize a model and semantics for multiple graphs and graphs stores"

David Wood: "Standardize a model and semantics for multiple graphs and graphs stores"

16:32:04 <sandro> davidwood: THere will be times we want to discuss the proveance of a singel triples, a group of triples, and times we dont' care.

David Wood: THere will be times we want to discuss the proveance of a singel triples, a group of triples, and times we dont' care. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:32:11 <satya> David: Provenance of a single triple and provenance of a group of triples

David Wood: Provenance of a single triple and provenance of a group of triples

16:32:15 <satya> @Sandro :)

@Sandro :)

16:32:55 <satya> David: The teminology will be decided in future

David Wood: The teminology will be decided in future

16:32:59 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:33:03 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:33:10 <satya> @Sandro: thanks! It helps, I keep falling behind

@Sandro: thanks! It helps, I keep falling behind

16:34:07 <satya> Sandro: The proposal for named graph is minimal, it associated a URI to a group of triples (graph)

Sandro Hawke: The proposal for named graph is minimal, it associated a URI to a group of triples (graph)

16:34:40 <satya> Sandro: It was claimed that this met the requirements stated in the RDF WG charter

Sandro Hawke: It was claimed that this met the requirements stated in the RDF WG charter

16:35:22 <davidwood> Personally (chair hat off), I agree with Sandro on this.

David Wood: Personally (chair hat off), I agree with Sandro on this.

16:35:33 <satya> Sandro: Hope that concrete use cases can be shared by prov WG with RDF WG

Sandro Hawke: Hope that concrete use cases can be shared by prov WG with RDF WG

16:37:04 <satya> Luc: In SW community, there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples and the RDF WG expects suggestions from prov WG

Luc Moreau: In SW community, there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples and the RDF WG expects suggestions from prov WG

16:37:13 <sandro> luc: "Provenance and Access Query" -- the problem of how folks give metadata to RDF data.

Luc Moreau: "Provenance and Access Query" -- the problem of how folks give metadata to RDF data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:37:31 <sandro> luc: ALSO, we need a way to scope provenance assertions that we've expressed as RDF.

Luc Moreau: ALSO, we need a way to scope provenance assertions that we've expressed as RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:37:48 <satya> Luc: Need mechanisms to scope provenance assertions, named graphs may be a mechanism to support it

Luc Moreau: Need mechanisms to scope provenance assertions, named graphs may be a mechanism to support it

16:38:17 <davidwood> q+ to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI.

David Wood: q+ to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI.

16:38:25 <satya> Sandro: Luc's example requirement is an advanced requirement for named graph

Sandro Hawke: Luc's example requirement is an advanced requirement for named graph

16:38:46 <gavinc> Can someone write down that "First use case"?

Gavin Carothers: Can someone write down that "First use case"?

16:39:22 <gavinc> was it "there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples" ?

Gavin Carothers: was it "there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples" ?

16:39:55 <satya> Luc: The first use case at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/provenance-access.html, describes a scenario for retrieving provenance in RDF/XML format of a HTML document

Luc Moreau: The first use case at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/provenance-access.html, describes a scenario for retrieving provenance in RDF/XML format of a HTML document

16:40:25 <satya> q+

q+

16:41:04 <pgroth> ack sandro

Paul Groth: ack sandro

16:41:05 <Luc> ack sandro

Luc Moreau: ack sandro

16:41:11 <satya> Sandro: Need to take a first pass on named graph problem before trying to tackle issue of scoping (?)

Sandro Hawke: Need to take a first pass on named graph problem before trying to tackle issue of scoping (?)

16:41:13 <sandro> sandro: I suggest tacking the metadata problem (Luc 1) before the representation/serialization problem (Luc 2).

Sandro Hawke: I suggest tacking the metadata problem (Luc 1) before the representation/serialization problem (Luc 2). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:41:57 <satya> David: Worried about some of Luc's assertions related to the provenance use case

David Wood: Worried about some of Luc's assertions related to the provenance use case

16:42:29 <satya> David: What happens if a resource may not have a URI associated with it

David Wood: What happens if a resource may not have a URI associated with it

16:43:04 <MacTed> q+ to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point

Ted Thibodeau: q+ to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point

16:43:15 <satya> David: There is a divide in RDF WG - (a) all RDF comes from RDF databases (b) RDF comes from files on the Web

David Wood: There is a divide in RDF WG - (a) all RDF comes from RDF databases (b) RDF comes from files on the Web

16:43:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood

David Wood: ack davidwood

16:43:22 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI.

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI.

16:43:35 <satya> Paul: We would like to address both the issues

Paul Groth: We would like to address both the issues

16:44:17 <satya> Paul: An entity (file) is identified by a set of characteristics

Paul Groth: An entity (file) is identified by a set of characteristics

16:44:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:45:06 <Luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

16:45:56 <sandro> satya: "scoping" brings into question contextualizing, which I don't think the RDF/SemWeb folks have dealt with. There is an assumption that RDF is not related to context.

Satya Sahoo: "scoping" brings into question contextualizing, which I don't think the RDF/SemWeb folks have dealt with. There is an assumption that RDF is not related to context. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:46:02 <sandro> +1 agreed

Sandro Hawke: +1 agreed

16:46:10 <MacTed> Zakim, unmte me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmte me

16:46:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed

16:46:16 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:46:16 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:46:22 <Luc> ack mact

Luc Moreau: ack mact

16:46:22 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, you wanted to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point

16:47:05 <sandro> MacTed: I'm concerned that people are making very tight readings, when not warranted.     downloading from web usually just mean viewing-in-browser.

Ted Thibodeau: I'm concerned that people are making very tight readings, when not warranted. downloading from web usually just mean viewing-in-browser. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:47:21 <satya> MacTed: Terminology used in description of use cases is not very specific, but is being interpreted in that sense

Ted Thibodeau: Terminology used in description of use cases is not very specific, but is being interpreted in that sense

16:47:22 <davidwood> +1 to MacTed.  That's another reason we are being careful to define our terminology.

David Wood: +1 to MacTed. That's another reason we are being careful to define our terminology.

16:47:26 <sandro> MacTed: There is a need to talk about a collected set of triples.   "Named Graph".   A subset of triples.

Ted Thibodeau: There is a need to talk about a collected set of triples. "Named Graph". A subset of triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:47:34 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:47:36 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:47:59 <sandro> q+ to mention Graphs issues

Sandro Hawke: q+ to mention Graphs issues

16:48:06 <satya> MacTed: There is a requirement to be able to refer to a collection of triples

Ted Thibodeau: There is a requirement to be able to refer to a collection of triples

16:48:13 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:48:47 <satya> MacTed: Should be able to refer to set of triples consistently by different persons/users

Ted Thibodeau: Should be able to refer to set of triples consistently by different persons/users

16:49:19 <satya> MacTed: There is communication gap between the RDF WG and prov WG and the call is help reconcile that

Ted Thibodeau: There is communication gap between the RDF WG and prov WG and the call is help reconcile that

16:49:42 <sandro> davidwood: The hope is RDF WG will publish it's chosen terms shortly.

David Wood: The hope is RDF WG will publish it's chosen terms shortly. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:49:47 <sandro> ... for public review

Sandro Hawke: ... for public review

16:49:51 <satya> David: Hope to define the terms in RDF WG

David Wood: Hope to define the terms in RDF WG

16:50:18 <satya> MacTed: The lack of terminology in prov WG is blocking progress

Ted Thibodeau: The lack of terminology in prov WG is blocking progress

16:50:27 <satya> David: Similar issue in RDF WG

David Wood: Similar issue in RDF WG

16:50:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:50:39 <Luc> ack sandro

Luc Moreau: ack sandro

16:50:39 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to mention Graphs issues

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to mention Graphs issues

16:50:50 <satya> Sandro: Temporarily agreed on some terms to help progress

Sandro Hawke: Temporarily agreed on some terms to help progress

16:50:52 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:51:10 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology

Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology

16:51:32 <gavinc> The temporary terms

Gavin Carothers: The temporary terms

16:51:47 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1

16:51:48 <satya> Sandro: Gsnap and GBox terms defined in RDF WG

Sandro Hawke: Gsnap and GBox terms defined in RDF WG

16:52:38 <satya> Sandro: We need to be explicit about the blank nodes - whether they can be shared

Sandro Hawke: We need to be explicit about the blank nodes - whether they can be shared

16:52:42 <satya> q+

q+

16:52:47 <davidwood> I expect *any* resource to be ephemeral within some degree of time, so nothing we will do in the RDF WG or the Provenance WG will remove the 404 problem from the Web, nor do we need to try.

David Wood: I expect *any* resource to be ephemeral within some degree of time, so nothing we will do in the RDF WG or the Provenance WG will remove the 404 problem from the Web, nor do we need to try.

16:52:52 <Luc> ack pgro

Luc Moreau: ack pgro

16:52:57 <sandro> (issue-21 is shared-bnodes)

Sandro Hawke: (ISSUE-21 is shared-bnodes)

16:53:20 <gavinc> ISSUE-21?

Gavin Carothers: ISSUE-21?

16:53:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open

16:53:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21

16:53:38 <satya> Paul: can the provenance WG conceptual model document help the RDF WG arrive at common terminology

Paul Groth: can the provenance WG conceptual model document help the RDF WG arrive at common terminology

16:54:02 <davidwood> q+ to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology.

David Wood: q+ to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology.

16:54:09 <satya> Luc: Yes, we can explore this

Luc Moreau: Yes, we can explore this

16:54:32 <pgroth> gotta go

Paul Groth: gotta go

16:54:36 <pgroth> good luck everyone

Paul Groth: good luck everyone

16:54:39 <davidwood> Thanks, Paul

David Wood: Thanks, Paul

16:54:56 <Zakim> -Paul_Groth

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paul_Groth

16:55:17 <satya> Luc: Struggled in the provenance WG to define a term for an resource - e.g.: ability to refer to a file at a location with some content and the same file with different content

Luc Moreau: Struggled in the provenance WG to define a term for an resource - e.g.: ability to refer to a file at a location with some content and the same file with different content

16:55:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:55:39 <satya> Luc: Sandro may be referring to the same problem

Luc Moreau: Sandro may be referring to the same problem

16:55:42 <AndyS> +1 to show and tell

Andy Seaborne: +1 to show and tell

16:56:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:56:06 <Luc> ack saty

Luc Moreau: ack saty

16:57:15 <satya> Satya: What is the plan for sharing of blank nodes and association of semantics with it?

Satya Sahoo: What is the plan for sharing of blank nodes and association of semantics with it?

16:57:32 <satya> Sandro: May modify the skolem function to address this

Sandro Hawke: May modify the skolem function to address this

16:58:12 <satya> David: Has the provenance WG understood the Gsnap, Gbox etc. being used by RDF WG

David Wood: Has the provenance WG understood the Gsnap, Gbox etc. being used by RDF WG

16:58:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood

David Wood: ack davidwood

16:58:21 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology.

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology.

16:58:30 <satya> Luc: No, we have not explored the terms

Luc Moreau: No, we have not explored the terms

16:58:48 <satya> @Luc: I have to leave

@Luc: I have to leave

16:58:52 <satya> sorry

sorry

16:59:13 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:59:17 <sandro> scribe: sandro

(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)

16:59:18 <Paolo> leaving too, thank you

Paolo Missier: leaving too, thank you

16:59:27 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:59:34 <sandro> luc: What are we doing next, procedurally?

Luc Moreau: What are we doing next, procedurally?

16:59:35 <gavinc> Luc: Wrapping up in the next 10 minutes, rather then talking about an example

Luc Moreau: Wrapping up in the next 10 minutes, rather then talking about an example [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

16:59:45 <sandro> davidwood: eg schedule next coordination call?

David Wood: eg schedule next coordination call?

16:59:56 <sandro> davidwood: After F2F, and after WDs.

David Wood: After F2F, and after WDs.

17:00:06 <sandro> davidwood: 12th & 13th of october.

David Wood: 12th & 13th of october.

17:00:08 <sandro> q+

q+

17:00:16 <gavinc> Could we get shared concrete examples BEFORE the next call?

Gavin Carothers: Could we get shared concrete examples BEFORE the next call?

17:00:22 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

17:00:39 <davidwood>  Input: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph

David Wood: Input: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph

17:00:45 <gavinc> sandro: What input do we have?

Sandro Hawke: What input do we have? [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

17:01:16 <gavinc> luc: two kinds of requirements, none of them are expressed at the level of detail mentioned, using temp graphs

Luc Moreau: two kinds of requirements, none of them are expressed at the level of detail mentioned, using temp graphs [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

17:01:27 <gavinc> sandro: need use cases

Sandro Hawke: need use cases [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

17:02:02 <gavinc> sandro: Thought we could get some use cases durring this call

Sandro Hawke: Thought we could get some use cases durring this call [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

17:02:31 <gavinc> davidwood: Are there one or two use cases that you know we have?

David Wood: Are there one or two use cases that you know we have? [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

17:02:39 <sandro> sandro: I wanted uses cases before the F2F.    Use cases like "communicating that Alice asserted certain triples (mutably, or immutably)".

Sandro Hawke: I wanted uses cases before the F2F. Use cases like "communicating that Alice asserted certain triples (mutably, or immutably)".

17:02:50 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

zakim, who is on the call?

17:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, davidwood, MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, davidwood, MacTed

17:03:53 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:03:59 <sandro> ted: Most of the use cases feel self evident, like what Sandro just said.     An entity asserts triples; that collection needs to be referred to.    If they have to be classed differently based on mutability, then they fall into one of two classes.

Ted Thibodeau: Most of the use cases feel self evident, like what Sandro just said. An entity asserts triples; that collection needs to be referred to. If they have to be classed differently based on mutability, then they fall into one of two classes.

17:04:03 <sandro> q-

q-

17:04:15 <sandro> ack AndyS

ack AndyS

17:04:19 <sandro> AndyS?

AndyS?

17:05:42 <sandro> AndyS: I think we need to get a lot more concrete on use cases.    Some things hard to cover with g-star technology.   Because we have two groups, and it's remote, we need VERY concrete cases, with real detail.   Within that, decide on one or two we care about most, to be sure they can be done.     Some risk that full set of requirements wont be met.

Andy Seaborne: I think we need to get a lot more concrete on use cases. Some things hard to cover with g-star technology. Because we have two groups, and it's remote, we need VERY concrete cases, with real detail. Within that, decide on one or two we care about most, to be sure they can be done. Some risk that full set of requirements wont be met.

17:06:04 <sandro> ... I can see us taking too long if make it too broad, so let's focus on VERY concrete things that matter.

... I can see us taking too long if make it too broad, so let's focus on VERY concrete things that matter.

17:06:11 <davidwood> q+

David Wood: q+

17:06:17 <sandro> luc: What's hard to map to g-star?

Luc Moreau: What's hard to map to g-star?

17:06:23 <sandro> AndyS: yes, but no time right now.

Andy Seaborne: yes, but no time right now.

17:06:55 <sandro> AndyS: Show and tell could be good.   Hard to tell the other side is bring precise.

Andy Seaborne: Show and tell could be good. Hard to tell the other side is bring precise.

17:07:30 <sandro> public-rdf-prov  list?

public-rdf-prov list?

17:07:43 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

17:08:12 <sandro> luc: Ted and Sandro write it down and let Prov-WG review it.

Luc Moreau: Ted and Sandro write it down and let Prov-WG review it.

17:09:10 <kai_> q+ to ask for bridge persons between the two groups

Kai Eckert: q+ to ask for bridge persons between the two groups

17:09:58 <sandro> kai_: We're looking for bridge group.

Kai Eckert: We're looking for bridge group.

17:10:19 <Luc> ack kai

Luc Moreau: ack kai

17:10:19 <Zakim> kai_, you wanted to ask for bridge persons between the two groups

Zakim IRC Bot: kai_, you wanted to ask for bridge persons between the two groups

17:11:00 <sandro> davidwood: Can we agree to only refer to things by URI ?

David Wood: Can we agree to only refer to things by URI ?

17:11:14 <davidwood> ack me

David Wood: ack me

17:12:03 <sandro> luc: Ultimately, we want to talk about provenance of resources, but we don't jhave the final story.  Using URIs is definitely one of our hypotheses.

Luc Moreau: Ultimately, we want to talk about provenance of resources, but we don't jhave the final story. Using URIs is definitely one of our hypotheses.

17:12:12 <kai_> I ask people who are interested to help in the communication between the two groups to contact me.

Kai Eckert: I ask people who are interested to help in the communication between the two groups to contact me.

17:12:18 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:12:20 <sandro> luc: davidwood can you ask this to the new mailing list?

Luc Moreau: davidwood can you ask this to the new mailing list?

17:12:31 <sandro> kai_, why not just ask themt o join the list?

kai_, why not just ask themt o join the list?

17:12:36 <MacTed> from my perspective, Prov is *not* only interested in provenance of "web" resources nor "resources" per se -- but *entities*

Ted Thibodeau: from my perspective, Prov is *not* only interested in provenance of "web" resources nor "resources" per se -- but *entities*

17:13:04 <kai_> @sandro works, too :-)

Kai Eckert: @sandro works, too :-)

17:13:05 <davidwood> MacTed, what is an entity?

David Wood: MacTed, what is an entity?

17:13:13 <MacTed> a thing which can be named

Ted Thibodeau: a thing which can be named

17:13:26 <gavinc> Named with what? ;)

Gavin Carothers: Named with what? ;)

17:13:32 <davidwood> Named via a URI? ;)

David Wood: Named via a IRI? ;)

17:13:33 <gavinc> say ... an IRI? ;)

Gavin Carothers: say ... an IRI? ;)

17:13:45 <davidwood> s/URI/IRI/
17:14:28 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:14:38 <AZ> bye

Antoine Zimmermann: bye

17:14:42 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:14:43 <MacTed> preferably, yes -- IRI.  my concern is not to limit to "resource" nor "web resource" -- because when docs are written that way, people take them to be not viable for concrete things

Ted Thibodeau: preferably, yes -- IRI. my concern is not to limit to "resource" nor "web resource" -- because when docs are written that way, people take them to be not viable for concrete things

17:14:43 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

17:14:44 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

17:14:45 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

17:14:46 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

17:14:46 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:14:47 <Zakim> -kai_

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai_

17:14:50 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:14:54 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:14:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM has ended

17:14:56 <MacTed> (where "concrete" means "not network transmissible")

Ted Thibodeau: (where "concrete" means "not network transmissible")

17:14:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, Scott_Bauer, Paul_Groth, kai_, AndyS, gavinc, AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood, Yolanda, Satya_Sahoo, MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Sandro, Scott_Bauer, Paul_Groth, kai_, AndyS, gavinc, AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood, Yolanda, Satya_Sahoo, MacTed

17:15:41 <davidwood> MacTed, REST allows *anything* to be a resource.

David Wood: MacTed, REST allows *anything* to be a resource.

17:15:51 <davidwood> …and thus named

David Wood: …and thus named

17:16:12 <sandro> ie Ted is talking about "Non-Information-Resources"

ie Ted is talking about "Non-Information-Resources"



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This revision (#1) generated 2011-09-15 17:19:20 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None