IRC log of htmlspeech on 2011-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:48 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-htmlspeech-irc
15:54:57 [Milan]
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15:55:28 [burn]
trackbot, start telcon
15:55:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:55:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:55:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:55:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Speech Incubator Group Teleconference
15:55:33 [trackbot]
Date: 27 October 2011
15:55:39 [burn]
zakim, this is htmlspeech
15:55:39 [Zakim]
ok, burn; that matches INC_(HTMLSPEECH)11:30AM
15:55:48 [burn]
Chair: Dan_Burnett
15:55:49 [burn]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0058.html
15:56:01 [Zakim]
+??P34
15:56:17 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P34 is Olli_Pettay
15:56:17 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
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+Milan_Young
15:56:36 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
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ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
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15:57:48 [burn]
zakim, I am Dan_Burnett
15:57:49 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett
15:57:51 [mbodell]
mbodell has joined #htmlspeech
15:58:12 [Zakim]
+Debbie_Dahl
15:58:44 [ddahl]
zakim, who is here?
15:58:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Olli_Pettay, Milan_Young, Debbie_Dahl
15:58:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mbodell, ddahl, Milan, RRSAgent, Zakim, burn, smaug, trackbot
16:00:08 [Zakim]
+Michael_Bodell
16:00:40 [Zakim]
+Dan_Druta
16:01:34 [Charles]
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+Charles_Hemphill
16:02:35 [glen]
glen has joined #htmlspeech
16:03:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.359.aaaa
16:04:16 [burn]
zakim, aaaa is Glen_Shires
16:04:17 [Zakim]
+Glen_Shires; got it
16:04:20 [burn]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0058.html
16:04:49 [ddahl]
scribe:ddahl
16:05:02 [ddahl]
chair:Dan_Burnett
16:05:12 [ddahl]
topic: protocol questions
16:05:18 [burn]
Document is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0033.html
16:06:43 [ddahl]
dan: let's postpone this
16:06:49 [ddahl]
topic: f2f planning
16:06:58 [burn]
zakim, who's here?
16:06:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Olli_Pettay, Milan_Young, Debbie_Dahl, Michael_Bodell, Dan_Druta, Charles_Hemphill, Glen_Shires
16:07:00 [ddahl]
dan: who will be at f2f?
16:07:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see glen, Charles, mbodell, ddahl, Milan, RRSAgent, Zakim, burn, smaug, trackbot
16:07:54 [ddahl]
olli: can we call in?
16:08:21 [ddahl]
dan: didn't ask for a phone, usually hard to talk to someone on the phone at f2f
16:08:46 [mbodell]
I know Robert will be there and so will Avery (a person from Microsoft who is starting to track these issues)
16:09:25 [ddahl]
dan: will look into one-way audio stream
16:09:42 [ddahl]
...topics that people want to discuss?
16:10:02 [ddahl]
glenn: won't that be close to our last chance?
16:10:18 [ddahl]
dan: we need to be done by the end of November
16:10:36 [ddahl]
s/glenn/glen
16:10:50 [ddahl]
glen: we won't have much time after f2f, only 1-2 calls
16:11:15 [ddahl]
michael: we should not expect to have any substantive discussions after f2f
16:11:29 [ddahl]
...only editorial
16:12:06 [ddahl]
dan: after f2f, anything that we don't agree on, we have to stop work on
16:12:17 [ddahl]
...editorial work can be substantial, too
16:12:56 [ddahl]
glen: should go into f2f with prioritized list of issues that we want to resolve
16:13:43 [ddahl]
michael: try to raise open issues on email, can people also write up code examples, also want to make sure that we're handling use cases
16:14:19 [ddahl]
dan: get people to sign up for sample code, even if not coming to f2f
16:14:28 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:14:34 [ddahl]
glen: what sample code should we be completing? is there a list?
16:14:49 [mbodell]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/htmlspeech/live/requirements.html#section-use-cases
16:15:05 [ddahl]
michael: we don't have a list, but can work through use cases to generate a list
16:16:02 [ddahl]
glen: we should have priorities and examples ahead of time
16:16:06 [burn]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Robert_Brown
16:16:06 [Zakim]
+Robert_Brown; got it
16:16:32 [robert]
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+Michael_Johnston
16:16:55 [ddahl]
dan: we know what needs to happen, now we need to get people to sign up to do things.
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16:17:22 [ddahl]
glen: will sign up to do some sample code
16:18:32 [ddahl]
michael: about seven people here who will be at f2f
16:19:34 [ddahl]
registrants -- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/registrants#HTMLSpeech
16:19:48 [ddahl]
glen: need quality use cases
16:20:29 [ddahl]
danD: from a developer's perspective, I would like to see some real examples that allow me to accomplish a particular task
16:21:19 [ddahl]
...e.g. voice search, set up a service that isn't a default service
16:21:40 [ddahl]
...for example, a speech recognition service
16:22:10 [ddahl]
glen: specifying a speech service is a good idea for an example.
16:22:58 [ddahl]
...some use cases span the gamut, that might require a huge JavaScript effort
16:24:06 [ddahl]
danD: to show developers that this is real, we need to address immediate needs. we might not have the resources to fully accomplish this, but we should have a few examples
16:24:25 [ddahl]
glen: I'm willing to take a crack at many of these
16:25:08 [ddahl]
michael: some are pretty extensive, everyone should prepare samples for using the protocol and for using the WebAPI.
16:25:46 [ddahl]
...it doesn't hurt if there is some duplication, but would like to have coverage of many use cases
16:26:05 [ddahl]
dan: do we need to make this more precise?
16:26:19 [ddahl]
glen: no suggestions for making this more precise
16:27:05 [ddahl]
michael: people should check with others if they also plan to do some
16:27:42 [ddahl]
olli: will try something for permission handling
16:28:31 [ddahl]
milan: would like to do something about continuous dictation in the protocol
16:28:56 [ddahl]
...would do the full stack
16:29:09 [ddahl]
glen: will focus on the WebAPI, not the protocol
16:30:48 [DanD]
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16:31:02 [ddahl]
debbie: will do use case 5, Domain Specific Grammars Filling Multiple Input Fields
16:31:20 [ddahl]
glen: what is the protocol aspect of that?
16:32:01 [ddahl]
michael: the author doesn't have to get into that but we have to specify what goes into the protocol to accomplish the use case.
16:34:43 [ddahl]
danD: could give a summarized description of what the connection is between the WebAPI and the protocol, could go back to the architecture and describe the bits and pieces we've put together over the past year. I can describe the architecture visually and in words.
16:35:35 [ddahl]
michaelJ: will try to do something around multimodal interaction
16:36:46 [ddahl]
dan: if you can't send sample before f2f, there probably won't be a chance to discuss it.
16:36:57 [ddahl]
...this is an important deadline
16:37:53 [ddahl]
charles: will review and provide feedback on other contributions, will take a look at TTS but can't promise
16:38:51 [MJ]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/htmlspeech/live/NOTE-htmlspeech.html#use-cases
16:40:16 [ddahl]
robert: driving directions, u15, rerecognition
16:41:41 [ddahl]
...will look at 3.3.3
16:42:38 [ddahl]
dan: could we find something for Bjorn and Satish?
16:42:40 [robert]
i'll look at 3.3.3, 3.3.7 and 3.3.15. can't promise quality
16:42:55 [ddahl]
glen: will encourage them to do what they can
16:44:49 [ddahl]
michael: can do a quick example on speech translation, both API and protocol
16:45:15 [ddahl]
dan: might do an example of interpret from text, but may not get that done
16:45:46 [ddahl]
...will primarily work on compiling the report together
16:46:09 [ddahl]
michaelJ: did we end up having the ability to put the grammar inline?
16:46:37 [ddahl]
michael: not currently, but we talked about using a data scheme in the URI
16:46:56 [ddahl]
charles: we should have an example showing that
16:47:26 [ddahl]
...can volunteer to provide that
16:48:10 [ddahl]
michael: please send any substantive issues to the list in advance of the meeting.
16:48:27 [ddahl]
topic: questions on the protocol
16:48:30 [mbodell]
For the data scheme if people need reminders on how it works the wikipedia page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme describes it
16:49:04 [ddahl]
robert: the first question is whether we would ever allow unencryted transmission
16:49:28 [ddahl]
...I think TLS encryption should be optional
16:50:00 [ddahl]
olli: if there's a proxy, the proxy must not be able to read the transmission
16:50:17 [ddahl]
michael: the user should know if the speech is happening over a secure channel or not
16:50:34 [ddahl]
...i don't know if it needs to be required for that
16:51:01 [ddahl]
robert: if the page was fetched over TLS, would expect speech to be handled over TLS
16:51:21 [ddahl]
dan: the security of the speech should be at least as strong as the security of the page
16:51:45 [ddahl]
michael: the page should tell you what's secure and what's not
16:52:03 [ddahl]
olli: this is a new kind of data, speech is more private
16:52:16 [ddahl]
robert: what do current services use?
16:52:24 [ddahl]
michael: Bing uses both
16:52:42 [ddahl]
glen: I don't know about Google Voice Search
16:52:46 [Zakim]
-Olli_Pettay
16:52:51 [smaug]
what...
16:53:23 [ddahl]
robert: we should say that browsers have a strict policy about this, but it's not clear that we should disallow unencrypted transmission
16:54:00 [ddahl]
dan: in MRCP it was useful to talk about the idea of a controlled environment
16:54:26 [ddahl]
...e.g. if the components are located on the same machine with no external network
16:55:00 [ddahl]
robert: there are probably trivial applications where I'm not saying anything that's personally identifiable.
16:55:01 [Zakim]
+??P2
16:55:17 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P2 is Olli_Pettay
16:55:17 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
16:55:18 [ddahl]
dan: could conceivably capture enough of your voice to train a TTS
16:55:21 [Zakim]
-Dan_Burnett
16:55:34 [ddahl]
michael: this is just about informed user consent
16:55:47 [burn]
got dropped. was saying this is indeed different from mrcp where the user is not involved
16:55:58 [ddahl]
...people are putting their voices up in YouTube all the time
16:56:28 [Zakim]
+Dan_Burnett
16:56:33 [ddahl]
charles: people can restrict who can see their YouTubes
16:56:37 [burn]
zakim, I am Dan_Burnett
16:56:37 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett
16:57:00 [ddahl]
charles: people might assume that a commercial service is secure
16:57:26 [ddahl]
robert: there are a lot of policy issues that depend on what country you're in, for example
16:58:32 [ddahl]
glen: if you're jumping from one speech engine to another with different policies, it gets complicated, because the user might not know about it
16:59:02 [ddahl]
robert: is there a strong case for disallowing unencrypted transmission?
16:59:30 [ddahl]
glen: we had a discussion on how the user authorizes what speech engines are used
17:00:04 [ddahl]
olli: there could be a proxy that recognizes you or other things like your gender from your voice
17:00:22 [ddahl]
dan: don't see any reason to disallow unencrypted speech
17:01:14 [ddahl]
michael: could discuss what happens when you're loaded securely and then Javascript tries to do something insecure
17:01:30 [ddahl]
olli: is there any reason to allow unencrypted speech?
17:02:48 [ddahl]
dan: we never know how our technologies are used you can't assume that there's always a person at the client, or you can't assume that the client and server are on different networks
17:03:15 [ddahl]
...there could be significance performance implications from encryption
17:03:44 [ddahl]
olli: there could be an additional spec for more controlled environments
17:04:14 [ddahl]
dan: wouldn't have a problem with always encrypting
17:04:34 [ddahl]
robert: there has to be a consent UI to even send your voice to a service
17:05:02 [ddahl]
olli: what happens to the data between the client and the service, there could be any number of proxies in between.
17:05:20 [ddahl]
robert: the concern is about man in the middle attacks.
17:05:34 [ddahl]
...your server could disallow non-TLS connections
17:06:03 [ddahl]
olli: but spec needs to be interoperable
17:06:47 [ddahl]
robert: TLS is required in UA's because of man in the middle attacks, but could be optional in the other cases. we could say that between the browser and the server TLS is required.
17:07:31 [ddahl]
michael: we should try to be consistent with other API's
17:07:54 [ddahl]
olli: but this is a different kind of data. we could look at RTC, for example.
17:08:16 [ddahl]
dan: there is a requirement for support of TLS, but I don't know if that's mandatory.
17:09:08 [mbodell]
There is text in html for fetching at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/fetching-resources.html#fetch and it talks about various things (including same origin, and possilby CORS) but I don't see where it says things need to be secure, even when on a secure page
17:09:19 [ddahl]
olli: in that case the UA can decide, but our situation is different
17:09:58 [Zakim]
-Milan_Young
17:10:34 [ddahl]
dan: will look for RTC info offline
17:11:45 [ddahl]
robert: voice data is sensitive, and people don't realize that just because they're talking to their browser they might be vulnerable
17:11:57 [ddahl]
...however, other services might not be affected
17:12:42 [ddahl]
robert: once you've given the data to a service, it can do whatever it likes with it
17:13:12 [ddahl]
danD: it could use dedicated media transport and might not need TLS
17:13:22 [ddahl]
dan: it's outside our scope.
17:13:42 [ddahl]
danD: as a user, you trust the service that you're using
17:14:18 [ddahl]
topic: EMMA with JSON payload
17:15:05 [ddahl]
robert: in EMMA you can return pretty much whatever you like, JSON seemed like a good example, but we had decided not to use JSON
17:15:34 [ddahl]
michael: it's ok to pull it out, the new examples will give a better sense of what you can do
17:16:13 [ddahl]
michaelJ: i'm fine with that, you can do that with 1.0, in EMMA 1.1 you can specify the type of payload.
17:16:46 [ddahl]
...you can put all kinds of information in EMMA, for example, emotional state
17:17:35 [ddahl]
...the use case I'm most interested in is "send info". what does the EMMA coming back look like?
17:18:10 [ddahl]
...if you want something outside of the API, you can go into the EMMA to get it.
17:18:22 [ddahl]
robert: will pull the example.
17:18:42 [ddahl]
...posted an update last week, won't plan to do another draft
17:18:51 [ddahl]
...comment if you have suggestions
17:19:07 [ddahl]
topic: <reco>
17:19:19 [ddahl]
dan: are we close to having a consensus?
17:20:12 [ddahl]
michael: I think glen and I are close, not sure about everyone else
17:20:38 [ddahl]
dan: let's summarize what it means to be close to an agreement
17:21:49 [mbodell]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0060.html
17:21:57 [mbodell]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0048.html
17:22:02 [ddahl]
michael: made changes to the WebAPI document, sent around, topic of binding might be too dense for now
17:22:03 [mbodell]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-htmlspeech/2011Oct/0055.html
17:22:24 [ddahl]
...if people have questions we could probably take a look at those.
17:22:33 [mbodell]
Those links are examples from me, Glen, and charles respectively
17:23:37 [ddahl]
dan: won't have a chance to pull things together until Sunday, so updates can be sent until then
17:24:16 [ddahl]
robert: will do a quick update including today's discussion
17:24:31 [ddahl]
s/updates/Robert's final updates to the protocol
17:25:04 [ddahl]
michaelJ: do we have any js examples for current API spec?
17:25:42 [ddahl]
michael: we have some simple examples for the markup, but not API
17:26:56 [ddahl]
...could try to write up a quick example that we could start from, will add an API example to section 1 today or tomorrow.
17:27:37 [ddahl]
olli: needs to reread binding stuff
17:28:07 [Zakim]
-Glen_Shires
17:28:08 [Zakim]
-Robert_Brown
17:28:09 [Zakim]
-Olli_Pettay
17:28:11 [Zakim]
-Dan_Druta
17:28:15 [Zakim]
-Debbie_Dahl
17:28:16 [Zakim]
-Michael_Bodell
17:28:19 [Zakim]
-Charles_Hemphill
17:28:22 [Zakim]
-Dan_Burnett
17:28:35 [burn]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:28:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Johnston
17:29:23 [ddahl]
ddahl has left #htmlspeech
17:29:41 [burn]
rrsagent, make log public
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-Michael_Johnston
17:29:46 [Zakim]
INC_(HTMLSPEECH)11:30AM has ended
17:29:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were Dan_Burnett, Olli_Pettay, Milan_Young, Debbie_Dahl, Michael_Bodell, Dan_Druta, Charles_Hemphill, +1.408.359.aaaa, Glen_Shires, Robert_Brown, Michael_Johnston
17:29:50 [burn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:29:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-htmlspeech-minutes.html burn
17:31:40 [burn]
s/, +1.408.359.aaaa//
17:31:46 [burn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:31:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-htmlspeech-minutes.html burn
17:34:47 [mbodell]
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