15:08:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:08:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-irc
15:08:44 <LeonieWatson> Meeting: WAI HTML-A11y weekly meeting
15:09:16 <janina> agenda: this
15:09:16 <janina> agenda+ canvas Status Update
15:09:16 <janina> agenda+ TPAC Planning Discussion
15:09:16 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Media; Bug Triage; Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text;
15:09:16 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:09:17 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:09:19 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:09:29 <janina>  zakim, take up item 1
15:09:29 <Zakim> agendum 1. "canvas Status Update" taken up [from janina]
15:09:38 <janina> scribe: janina
15:10:38 <janina> [discussion on getting the review done before escalating issue 131]
15:10:55 <Judy> q+
15:10:59 <LeonieWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
15:11:55 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-a11y
15:12:02 <LeonieWatson> JB: It would be great if you could help move things on.
15:13:24 <LeonieWatson> PC: I'll work on this, but I can't promise anything. 
15:14:04 <LeonieWatson> RS: I could submit this with the change proposal, but I don't want to have another 11th hour problem to deal with again. I'd prefer to reach out to the chairs for input before wesubmit our proposal.
15:14:24 <LeonieWatson> PC: That's why I'm here, so things don't ferment.
15:15:08 <LeonieWatson> RS: I could ask to open issue 131 and submit this before a vote?
15:16:06 <LeonieWatson> PC: I can't hypothesise what the co-chairs might do.
15:17:07 <LeonieWatson> RS: Time has been put into this proposal. I don't have time to go over it again. I wish I did, but...
15:17:26 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:17:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:19:56 <LeonieWatson> RS: I'm writing a spec change for bindings to fall back content. 
15:20:36 <LeonieWatson> JS: The TPAC agenda is pretty much done. The slot that works best for HTML discussions PF wants to have is after lunch on the Monday.
15:20:50 <LeonieWatson> CS: I'll be there for part of it at least.
15:21:03 <LeonieWatson> JS: We could start with HTML.mappings?
15:21:26 <LeonieWatson> JS: We could end that discussion with canvas?
15:22:31 <LeonieWatson> JS: From 9am through 3pm we'll be on ARIA.
15:22:58 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:23:15 <LeonieWatson> JS: We have several Microsoft people asking to observe.
15:23:38 <janina> zakim, next item
15:23:38 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
15:23:38 <LeonieWatson> zakim, next item
15:23:40 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LeonieWatson
15:23:53 <LeonieWatson> q?
15:23:54 <janina> q?
15:24:00 <janina> ack judy
15:24:09 <janina> zakim, next item
15:24:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC Planning Discussion" taken up [from janina]
15:24:42 <LeonieWatson> JS: Let's be specific to the TF part of things.
15:25:06 <LeonieWatson> JS: Work will begin on mappings. What else do we want to focus on?
15:25:20 <LeonieWatson> JS: I was thinking about actions, particularly from the text sub team.
15:25:53 <LeonieWatson> JS: There are two change proposals under review.
15:27:36 <LeonieWatson> JS: Steve is making some final minor tweaks to the metaname generator and title proposals.
15:27:45 <LeonieWatson> s/Steve/Steve Faulkner/
15:27:56 <LeonieWatson> CS: Canvas follow ups?
15:28:28 <LeonieWatson> JS@ Longdesc and table summary are also active.
15:28:52 <LeonieWatson> JS: John Foliot has posted a response to Jonas, and I'm close to completing my response to Matt.
15:29:59 <LeonieWatson> JS: I have an action to review the table summary response to ensure it addresses the points from the original objection.
15:30:39 <LeonieWatson> JS: On the text telecon I suggested allowig longdesc to be used as a replacement for table summary.
15:31:01 <JF> +Q
15:31:07 <LeonieWatson> s/allowig/allowing/
15:31:27 <LeonieWatson> CS: longdesc or describedby and describedat?
15:31:32 <LeonieWatson> JS: Longdesc.
15:31:42 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:32:03 <LeonieWatson> JS: This is on our agenda for Tuesday morning.
15:32:41 <LeonieWatson> JS: Longdesc for a couple of reasons. Perhaps the biggest reason is that longdesc already exists, it's familiar, and it's available to ATs.
15:32:59 <LeonieWatson> CS: You could do that with describedby or describedat too. 
15:33:18 <LeonieWatson> JS: There's plenty for us to discuss on Tuesday morning.
15:34:14 <janina> q?
15:34:25 <janina> ack j
15:34:55 <LeonieWatson> JF: The problem with describedby and described at, is that they're only available through accessibility APIs. They could be useful to people with other disabilities.
15:35:07 <LeonieWatson> CS: It's markup, how would that not be available?
15:35:22 <LeonieWatson> JF: There isn't an interaction model.
15:35:37 <LeonieWatson> CS: There wouldn't have been an interaction model for longdesc originally though.
15:35:45 <janina> q?
15:35:54 <LeonieWatson> JF: The larger problem is that we don't have the support from the browser vendors.
15:36:19 <LeonieWatson> JF: It's what we get from the element or attribute or whatever that's important.
15:37:06 <LeonieWatson> JF: An issue was described on the text call - the first time a blind user encounters a table summary it's useful, after that it's less helpful.
15:37:35 <LeonieWatson> JF: It's about choice. Do you want to access the supplemental information? Yes or no.
15:37:57 <LeonieWatson> JF: If the browsers can give us that functionality through describedby or describedat, that would be great.
15:38:11 <LeonieWatson> CS: Longdesc isn't implemented in browsers that well though.
15:38:29 <LeonieWatson> JF: The best of breed we have at the moment is longdesc.
15:38:46 <LeonieWatson> CS: I agree we need the behaviour, but think we may be getting too tied up in the implementation.
15:39:07 <LeonieWatson> JF: You're right. Legacy support is important. Just look at the <b> <i> etc. It's not going to go away.
15:39:13 <janina> q?
15:39:30 <janina> q+
15:39:36 <LeonieWatson> JF: If, generally speaking, the wider community thinks four quarters for a dollar is worth the effort, so be it. There's still a need to provide legacy support.
15:39:45 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:39:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:40:33 <LeonieWatson> JS: It's clear we'll talk about this more at TPAC. Interestig to hear no-one has dismissed my longdesc idea out of hand.
15:41:13 <LeonieWatson> JS: We understand the desire for describedat, and that's going to move forward.
15:42:01 <LeonieWatson> JS: Meanwhile, there is this moment. Longdesc is more accepted at this time. There is also the storm we'll inherit if we say we want to rely on a mechanism that doesn't exist yet.
15:42:40 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:42:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:43:06 <janina> q?
15:43:10 <janina> ack j
15:44:00 <LeonieWatson> JF: The requirements have been clarified - discoverability and interaction. If we're talking about table summary as obsolete but conforming whilst we migrate to another mechanism, I don't care what that is, but would support something along those lines.
15:44:06 <janina> q?
15:44:41 <LeonieWatson> JS: I think we're showing consistency, and good response to positive feedback.
15:45:01 <LeonieWatson> CS: I agree consistency is important.
15:46:24 <LeonieWatson> JB: It sounds like a useful solution. You want to be aiming for what will technically work. Legacy realities are an important piece of this. We want to be moving forward, but we don't want to move forward with the floor missing.
15:47:27 <LeonieWatson> JS: Ok, TPAC... We have our agenda, and other formal and informal sessions and conversations.
15:48:08 <LeonieWatson> JB: FYI. I'll be a guest observer for the PF sessions. Will try to interesect on Tuesday where possible.
15:48:13 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:48:27 <janina> zakim, next item
15:48:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Subteam Reports: Media; Bug Triage; Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text;" taken up [from janina]
15:48:38 <LeonieWatson> JF: Will generated content be on the agenda?
15:48:44 <janina> talking about meta name generator
15:49:00 <LeonieWatson> JF: There seems to be two points of view within our community. I don't know which is which.
15:49:32 <LeonieWatson> JF: We need to walk through this, make sure it's clear in our own minds.
15:49:47 <LeonieWatson> +1 to JF.
15:50:36 <LeonieWatson> JF: You can use the before and after CSS selectors to write text to the screen. The argument is that this is content written to the presentation layer.
15:50:48 <LeonieWatson> JB: These are old issues being raised again by the sound of things.
15:51:37 <LeonieWatson> JS: We'll be meeting with CSS. I don't ant it to be our top item, but I'll aim to include it at some point.
15:52:37 <LeonieWatson> CS: I'm a member of the CSS WG, so can raise it if that's helpful. I'm concerned about it too.
15:52:44 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:53:05 <JF> Q?
15:53:36 <janina> scribe: janina
15:53:56 <janina> leonie, apologizing for any confusion on priority requests
15:54:06 <janina> leonie, complete on priority review
15:54:17 <janina> leonie, looking for next steps guidance from pf
15:54:30 <paulc> I am chairing the WG meeting today and have to leave now to get ready.
15:54:33 <paulc> exit
15:55:13 <janina> janina, please make sure I bring this up Monday during PF's html discussion
15:55:17 <janina> leonie, OK
15:55:33 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
15:55:46 <LeonieWatson> JS: John can we talk next week about media?
15:56:14 <LeonieWatson> JF: Yes. There is activity from the community group regarding time tracker. It would be useful to touch base with various browser implementations as well, in terms of support for track.
15:57:27 <LeonieWatson> JS: We have a meeting on Tuesday with the Web TV interest group. There is going to be a panel on this whole topic on Wednesday.
15:58:12 <LeonieWatson> JS: This is a good opportunity, and it should help set things up for some useful discussions on Thursday and Friday.
15:58:17 <JF> Web and TV Interest Group: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/
15:58:33 <janina> zakim, next item
15:58:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:59:13 <LeonieWatson> JS: Any volunteers to scribe our next meeting, two weeks from today?
15:59:28 <LeonieWatson> JS: Alright, we'll take it up next time.
16:00:18 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
16:00:40 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
16:01:15 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieWatson
16:03:20 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, stop log
16:03:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', LeonieWatson.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:06:02 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent stop
16:07:05 <LeonieWatson> rrsagent, stop