IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:06 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y

14:58:06 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-irc

14:58:08 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:58:08 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #html-a11y

14:58:10 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2119

14:58:10 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:58:11 [trackbot]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14:58:11 [trackbot]

Date: 28 July 2011

14:58:12 [Joshue]

Hi Janina

14:58:19 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started

14:58:24 [kford]

kford has joined #html-a11y

14:58:25 [Zakim]

+??P42

14:59:02 [janina]

zakim, ??P42 is Janina

14:59:02 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:59:26 [Marco_Ranon]

Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y

15:00:13 [Zakim]

+ +1.650.468.aaaa

15:00:17 [Zakim]

+??P56

15:00:22 [kford]

zakim, code?

15:00:22 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), kford

15:00:46 [Marco_Ranon]

zakim, ??P56 is me

15:00:46 [Zakim]

+Marco_Ranon; got it

15:00:49 [JF]

JF has joined #html-a11y

15:00:58 [JF]

zakim, who's here?

15:00:58 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Janina, +1.650.468.aaaa, Marco_Ranon

15:01:00 [Zakim]

On IRC I see JF, Marco_Ranon, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, Joshue, MichaelC, davidb, janina, trackbot, [tm]

15:01:12 [JF]

zakim, aaaa is JF

15:01:12 [Zakim]

+JF; got it

15:01:19 [Marco_Ranon]

zakim, mute me

15:01:19 [Zakim]

Marco_Ranon should now be muted

15:01:41 [janina]

zakim, this will be 2119

15:01:45 [Zakim]

ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now

15:01:55 [MichaelC]

zakim, this is 2119

15:01:58 [Zakim]

ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM

15:02:00 [MichaelC]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:02:06 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Janina, JF, Marco_Ranon (muted), [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper

15:02:22 [MichaelC]

zakim, Microsoft is Kelly_Ford

15:02:26 [Zakim]

+Kelly_Ford; got it

15:03:44 [janina]

Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

15:03:44 [janina]

Chair: Janina_Sajka

15:03:44 [janina]

Scribe: Marco_Ranon

15:03:44 [janina]

Scribe: John_Foliot

15:03:44 [janina]

Scribe: Cynthia Shelly

15:03:45 [janina]

Scribe: Michael_Cooper

15:03:47 [janina]

agenda: this

15:03:49 [janina]

agenda+ Last Call Bug Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

15:03:51 [janina]

agenda+ Other Business

15:03:53 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

15:03:55 [janina]

agenda+ Identify Scribe for 4 August http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

15:03:57 [janina]

agenda+ be done

15:04:02 [LJW]

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15:05:00 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:05:06 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

15:06:28 [Greg]

Greg has joined #html-a11y

15:06:55 [janina]

zakim, take up item 1

15:07:10 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Last Call Bug Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review" taken up [from janina]

15:07:45 [JF]

scribe: JF

15:08:26 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:08:30 [janina]

OK

15:09:12 [JF]

JS: we should start by going through the wiki issue by issue

15:09:21 [Zakim]

+Cooper

15:10:15 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

15:11:27 [janina]

Greg, We're about to figure out how to proceed. Certain people have particular knowledge/concerns.

15:11:42 [JF]

JS: we have a lot to go through

15:12:02 [Zakim]

-Cooper

15:12:08 [JF]

how to proceed through the reviews in house to date - we have a fair bit of content already

15:12:24 [JF]

we also have people who will be coming and going on this call

15:13:13 [cyns]

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15:13:20 [JF]

JS: given this, not sure how to proceed due to people coming and going - suggest we just go through sequentially from top to bottom

15:13:29 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:13:34 [Joshue]

Joshue has joined #html-a11y

15:13:38 [JF]

JS: Greg has submitted a lot of content - "camera ready" bugs

15:13:57 [JF]

Greg is on the IRC, wonders if there are any other comments that were not included in the wiki

15:14:15 [JF]

KF: If Greg is on the phone please speak up

15:14:33 [JF]

some of the content might not have made it to the wiki - it only went to the UAAG list and janina

15:14:38 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:14:50 [JF]

MC: if it was only added to UAAG wqiki yesterday it may not have been noted

15:14:53 [Zakim]

-??P21

15:15:04 [cyns]

zakim, microsoft has me

15:15:04 [Zakim]

+cyns; got it

15:15:53 [JF]

MC: as a note, at the top of the wiki there is a full page review of the wiki content available at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All

15:15:59 [JF]

same content as in the wiki

15:16:47 [JF]

[working on having Greg's submissions sent to the TF mailing list

15:17:54 [Zakim]

+??P1

15:17:59 [Joshue]

zakim, ??P1 is Joshue

15:17:59 [Zakim]

+Joshue; got it

15:18:45 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:18:45 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

15:19:15 [Zakim]

+ +1.425.895.aabb

15:19:22 [Greg]

zakim, aabb is me

15:19:22 [Zakim]

+Greg; got it

15:19:36 [JF]

zakim, who's here?

15:19:36 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Janina, JF, Marco_Ranon (muted), Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, [Microsoft], Joshue (muted), Greg

15:19:38 [Zakim]

[Microsoft] has cyns

15:19:39 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Joshue, cyns, Greg, LJW, JF, Marco_Ranon, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, MichaelC, davidb, janina, trackbot, [tm]

15:20:46 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:21:50 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P21 is Léonie_Watson

15:21:50 [Zakim]

+Léonie_Watson; got it

15:23:43 [Joshue]

Go Léonie :-)

15:23:45 [JF]

JS: for the record, Leonie has agreed to chair the bug triage sub-team, which will have a fair bit of work after today's call

15:23:54 [JF]

shepharding these bugs through the process

15:24:33 [JF]

JS: doesn't mean she will be doing all the work, but rather will direct to others with specific expertese

15:25:05 [janina]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

15:25:49 [JF]

JS: Looking at the wiki, it is our intent to work through this wiki today, to decide what we need/want to escalate to the bugzilla

15:26:24 [JF]

suggest that unless we have a particular reason to skip around, perhaps we should start at the top

15:26:45 [JF]

however if the UAAG folk (who have joined us today) need to leave early, we could also start with their submissions first

15:27:54 [JF]

as we go through this, and assign bugs-to-be-filed to various individuals, they should file the bug and then add the URI of that bug into the wiki'

15:28:28 [JF]

KF: does the wiki also contain all the links of other issues of concern?

15:28:45 [JF]

is this the definitive source of issues of concern?

15:29:28 [JF]

JS: the only reason to be hesitant is that the wiki might not have a complete listing of issues we have already raised (i.e. @longdesc)

15:29:30 [kford]

JS says wiki pretty solid excluding issues where reconsideration may be needed.

15:30:00 [JF]

this is a good representation of the issues we have been working on, but some details may not be fully captured

15:30:30 [JF]

Alls aid however, this is probably the best resource - how complete however is unknown

15:31:10 [JF]

Michael Cooper (for example) has copied over all of the UAAG wiki comments to this wiki as well

15:33:38 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/scripting-1.html#scripting-1

15:34:16 [Joshue]

Janina, I just put the link to the scripting part of the spec in IRC

15:34:38 [Joshue]

Cyns, good feedback on Forms btw

15:35:47 [JF]

JS: Can we ask someone to review the comments we have on Structure - provide a summary from the wiki page

15:35:52 [Marco_Ranon]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All#Structure

15:35:56 [Joshue]

No bugs on structure?

15:36:35 [JF]

MC: Simon notes that it looks fine, made some comments about accessibility semantics

15:36:51 [Zakim]

-Léonie_Watson

15:37:12 [JF]

MCL James Craig asked about print-formatted file issues

15:37:30 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:37:41 [JF]

JS: Seems that these are not really items we can file as bugs - we should monitor them but not much more we can do at this time

15:39:33 [JF]

MS: asks Greg to summarize his comments

15:40:20 [JF]

[Greg has supplied a couple of use-cases and proposed replacement language]

15:40:55 [JF]

will paste into irc now

15:41:00 [Greg]

Here's email I sent:

15:41:02 [Greg]

Hi! The following has been added to the wiki at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/HTML5_review_by_UAWG_notes#Non-Interactive_User_Agents:

15:41:04 [Greg]

Non-Interactive User Agents

15:41:05 [Greg]

The current draft HTML5 spec says:

15:41:07 [Greg]

<blockquote>

15:41:09 [Greg]

Non-interactive presentation user agents

15:41:10 [Greg]

User agents that process HTML and XHTML documents purely to render non-interactive versions of them must comply to the same conformance criteria as Web browsers, except that they are exempt from requirements regarding user interaction.

15:41:12 [Greg]

Typical examples of non-interactive presentation user agents are printers (static UAs) and overhead displays (dynamic UAs). It is expected that most static non-interactive presentation user agents will also opt to lack scripting support.

15:41:13 [Greg]

A non-interactive but dynamic presentation UA would still execute scripts, allowing forms to be dynamically submitted, and so forth. However, since the concept of "focus" is irrelevant when the user cannot interact with the document, the UA would not need to support any of the focus-related DOM APIs.

15:41:16 [Greg]

</blockquote>

15:41:18 [Greg]

It is very important that developers should not relegate user agents to the "non-interactive" category if there is benefit to the user in being able to interact with them.

15:41:21 [Greg]

Use case: Imelda uses a screen enlarger. She runs an application that displays a static, web-based slide detailing today's weather forecast. Imelda uses a screen enlarger, and normally reads blocks of text by having the magnifier track the text caret as she moves it through the content. However, as the developers considered theirs a non-interactive user agent, they left out the ability to do...

15:41:26 [Greg]

...caret browsing. With luck, the screen enlarger will be able to access the application's DOM and determine the screen coordinates of each word, but it would certainly be easier if the application supported caret browsing.

15:41:29 [Greg]

Use case: The weather application that Imelda is running allows the user to select text with the mouse and automatically copies that text to the clipboard. However, the developers did not consider this "focus" or "activation", or even "selection" because the selection does not persist and the user can't perform their choice of actions on it. However, by this decision they are making...

15:41:34 [Greg]

...functionality available to only one input modality, and users who rely on other modalities such as keyboard or speech recognition are denied full access. In this case, the developers should not have considered their application non-interactive, and instead implemented full focus and selection functionality.

15:41:38 [Greg]

Recommendation: The HTML5 spec should include wording that clarifies that user agents should not consider themselves non-interactive if they render content to the user on any system that can take input, and more specifically should not omit support for focus-related DOM APIs just because they do not expect to be taking input. Ideally it would include use cases similar to the above in order...

15:41:43 [Greg]

...to help readers understand the issue.

15:42:38 [Joshue]

nope

15:42:52 [Joshue]

that is, I don't disagree

15:43:01 [JF]

JS: Looks like this could be filed as-is

15:43:23 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/

15:43:36 [Joshue]

HTH

15:44:09 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=HTML5%20spec%20%28editor:%20Ian%20Hickson%29&priority=P3

15:45:21 [Zakim]

+Rich_Schwerdtfeger

15:45:22 [JF]

[setting up Greg to file his bugs directly to bugzilla]

15:46:26 [JF]

[Michael cooper updating wiki to reflect fact that Greg will file his own bugs]

15:47:03 [JF]

KF" James Craig points out a few things

15:47:33 [JF]

some are not really actionable, while others (such as awkward wording) could be actionable

15:48:01 [JF]

Greg: James first point overlaps with one of the comments i submitted

15:48:32 [cyns]

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15:48:33 [JF]

MC: as we review this, some items are actionable and smoe are not

15:49:02 [Zakim]

-??P21

15:49:06 [JF]

will add a note to the bottom that Greg Lowney is filing a bug that encompasses James' first point

15:49:22 [JF]

JS: can someone else take on the task of filing the other bugs?

15:49:52 [JF]

KF: can take the others

15:50:38 [JF]

KF: will file bugs - even the low priority ones as once in the system...

15:52:06 [Joshue]

JF: Embed is legacy and object is more recent.

15:52:37 [Joshue]

JF: I'll take it

15:53:02 [JF]

JF will file a bug on Jame's comment re: 2.2.3. Extensibility and embed vs. object

15:54:36 [Joshue]

JF: Seems we should push back on CSS Wg

15:55:18 [JF]

MC: wonders if we should be pushing back on the Systems Colors issue at the HTML WG since CSS WG have not responded

15:55:35 [JF]

JS: seems that we should file a bug on this

15:56:42 [Joshue]

JF: Thats an easy bug, I'll take it

15:58:15 [JF]

JS: Notes that Rich is now n the call, and mindful that he cannot be here for the whole call suggest we move to the sections that Rich looked at

15:58:21 [JF]

+1

15:58:35 [janina]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/editing.html#contenteditable

15:58:56 [Joshue]

Rich has 9 bugs

15:59:22 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Editing

15:59:27 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/editing.html#contenteditable

15:59:50 [Marco_Ranon]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All#Editing

16:01:03 [Joshue]

7.5

16:01:07 [JF]

RS: the general problem is that the editing section is called the contenteditable section

16:01:26 [JF]

when you go into that section you start talking about contenteditable and then it jumps to design mode

16:02:09 [JF]

what is not clear is the support between design mode and keyboard editable

16:02:30 [JF]

design mode makes the whole section editable, while contenteditable is by section

16:02:44 [JF]

it is mostly editorial

16:03:19 [JF]

one of the other issues is that different browsers have different keyboard navigation

16:03:41 [JF]

CS: The WG has pushed back fairly hard on specifying uA behaviors

16:04:02 [JF]

wonders if a comment that notes "follow platform conventions" would be sufficient

16:04:08 [JF]

JS: sounds like a clear bug

16:04:34 [JF]

RS: that sounds fine to me. for example, the Mac does not have an insert key, but on the same platform it should be consistent

16:04:56 [JF]

GL: notes that regardless of what happens in HTML5 that this should be addressed in the UAAG stack as well

16:05:52 [JF]

JS: I think this distills down to being consistent at a platform level

16:06:06 [Joshue]

sounds good

16:06:16 [JF]

[all agree this should be a bug]

16:06:35 [JF]

RS: agrees to file this as a bug

16:06:59 [JF]

(and previous item as well "Title for Section")

16:07:27 [JF]

RS: the problem appears that design mode looks like it was added after the fact

16:08:03 [JF]

so these issues all seem to be based on that editorial change, however Rich will file 3 bugs based on this

16:08:57 [Joshue]

JF, I'll scribe for a bit

16:09:12 [Joshue]

Scribe, Joshue

16:09:19 [Joshue]

Scribe: Joshue

16:09:42 [Joshue]

MC: The wiki page for edits is above

16:10:04 [Joshue]

MC: I can make edits now..

16:10:23 [Joshue]

MC: We are filing a bug for each of his headings

16:10:38 [Joshue]

JS: Please add the keywords a11ytf

16:10:45 [Joshue]

RS: Ok

16:11:03 [Joshue]

MC: We have other comments from Greg that I included.

16:11:47 [Joshue]

Greg: Meaning rather than presentation is important to screen readers etc

16:12:09 [Joshue]

Greg: I have some example solutions, do people agree?

16:12:13 [Joshue]

JS: Comments?

16:12:20 [Joshue]

CS: Sounds like a big bug

16:12:26 [Joshue]

CS: Are we asking them to add elements?

16:12:41 [Joshue]

Greg: I proposed atts to the mark element.

16:12:47 [Joshue]

CS: Maybe less of a fight.

16:12:57 [Joshue]

Greg: Should something else be used?

16:13:12 [Joshue]

CS: Should we create a bug, but not have a specific edit?

16:13:20 [Joshue]

JS: That would be acceptable.

16:13:35 [Joshue]

JS: If we see an issue, file the bug - even if solution is not in hand.

16:13:42 [Joshue]

JS: It keeps it on the table.

16:13:55 [Joshue]

JS: Any objections?

16:14:02 [Joshue]

JS: Yes Greg, please do

16:14:16 [Joshue]

JS: We are noting it in wiki

16:16:07 [Joshue]

Greg: Anyone who can give advice on this, new att to be used in this context please let me know.

16:16:20 [Joshue]

Greg: Eg the meaning and flag att

16:16:25 [Joshue]

Greg: Not sure yet

16:16:58 [Greg]

E.g. where I suggested a new "meaning" attribute, should we reuse the "title" attribute?

16:17:11 [Joshue]

JS: Contenteditable is updated in the wiki, going back to the sequence.

16:17:25 [Joshue]

Greg: Is that it from Rich?

16:17:37 [Joshue]

RS: Not from me

16:17:45 [Joshue]

RS: I am really busy with canvas.

16:17:54 [Joshue]

JS: Going back to Globals.

16:17:55 [Marco_Ranon]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All#Globals

16:18:22 [Joshue]

JS: Break?

16:18:56 [Joshue]

Scribe is on standby

16:19:10 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

16:19:10 [Zakim]

Joshue was already muted, Joshue

16:25:42 [Joshue]

SUBJECT: Globals

16:25:56 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Globals

16:26:59 [Joshue]

Comments etc above

16:27:02 [Joshue]

Elements http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/elements.html#elements

16:27:18 [Joshue]

Content Models http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/content-models.html#content-models

16:29:02 [Joshue]

<discussion on various spec related docs>

16:29:30 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

16:29:30 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

16:30:13 [Joshue]

The doc that we file bugs against is the HTML Spec (Editor:Ian Hickson)

16:30:21 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

16:30:21 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

16:30:56 [Joshue]

P3 (as a level of urgency will suffice)

16:31:00 [Joshue]

JS: Yes

16:31:16 [Joshue]

s/P3/JF:P3

16:31:40 [Joshue]

JF: The important thing is to capture the bug numbers etc so we can see them thru.

16:32:08 [Joshue]

JS: We have noted who has taken the bugs on, if everyone can annotate them with the URI that would be great

16:32:21 [Joshue]

JS: Looking at Globals

16:32:27 [Joshue]

JS: Summary from anyone.

16:32:35 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

16:32:36 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

16:32:57 [Joshue]

JF: Simon noted these are UAAG issues etc,

16:33:02 [Greg]

Greg has joined #html-a11y

16:33:10 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

16:33:10 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

16:33:55 [Joshue]

JS: Greg should file his comments, Simons comments are picked up in his bug.

16:34:18 [Joshue]

JF: Gregory Rosmaita was doing work on AccessKey etc,

16:34:28 [Joshue]

JF: I have a lot to do and don't want to take too much on,

16:34:55 [Joshue]

JF: AccessKey should be revisited, Gregory did a lot of work

16:35:06 [Joshue]

JS: More on Simons comments?

16:35:12 [Joshue]

JF: A typo etc

16:35:21 [Joshue]

JS: File a bug anyone?

16:36:12 [Joshue]

Greg: Is that relating to contenteditable?

16:36:28 [Joshue]

CS: A WAI issue, not a HTML bug

16:37:05 [Joshue]

Greg: It seems reasonable to me (Simons suggestion)

16:37:13 [Joshue]

CS: We need to talk about that.

16:37:27 [Joshue]

JF: I second Gregs idea

16:38:07 [Joshue]

JS: We'll leave it as discuss, put it on the PF agenda

16:39:07 [Joshue]

JF: To continue, Simon notes Global att hidden - it should be up to AT. Should it be rendered if in the DOM?

16:39:11 [Joshue]

CS: Don't agree

16:39:32 [Joshue]

JS: Is this a UAAG discuss?

16:39:36 [Joshue]

JF: Yeah

16:39:55 [Joshue]

JS: Lets point it to UAAG

16:40:31 [Joshue]

JF: Any comments on the rest of Simons issues?

16:40:39 [Joshue]

Group: Seems right.

16:40:55 [Joshue]

Re:Tabindex

16:41:44 [Joshue]

the title att is a UAAG issue

16:42:03 [Joshue]

zakim, who is making noise?

16:42:03 [JAllan]

JAllan has joined #html-a11y

16:42:13 [Zakim]

Joshue, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (15%), Rich_Schwerdtfeger (80%)

16:43:30 [Joshue]

CS: Deadline next Weds, midnight Boston.

16:43:50 [Joshue]

<discussion on deadline etc>

16:43:55 [Joshue]

JS: Moving on

16:44:20 [Joshue]

Simon notes 'Content Models' looks fine

16:44:24 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

16:44:24 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

16:44:25 [JF]

scribe: JF

16:44:32 [JF]

Josh:

16:44:57 [JF]

1 think that is a missed opportunity to reinforce semantics for assistive technology

16:45:10 [JF]

proposed some sample spec text to address thta

16:45:46 [JF]

seems to be a recurring theme in the spec - that it often misses the opportunity to highlight the benefits of semantics to users of AT

16:46:11 [JF]

CS: agree that is a good idea - if done carefully it would likely be embraced

16:48:21 [JF]

[Josh reading out his proposed text found in the wiki]

16:48:27 [JF]

GL: 2 thoughts

16:48:48 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Globals#3.2_Elements_.5B1.5D

16:49:20 [JF]

there are times when being conforming is less important than ensuring accessibility - for example if an author uses a non-conforming code (eg. @longdesc) how terrible is it?

16:50:04 [JF]

perhaps setting a flag that notes that a series of changes conformant content that will emerge at the end of interaction conformant, but may fall "out of conformance" during the process

16:50:54 [JF]

JS: do we want what is suggested here filed at this time

16:50:58 [JF]

or discuss further

16:51:13 [JF]

GL: since it is non-normative, i don't see an issue with filing that

16:51:23 [JF]

Josh: will file this as a bug then

16:52:13 [JF]

GL: should we discuss the idea of a flag for batch actions that move from conformant to non-conformant to conformant again?

16:52:36 [JF]

CS: file the bug, but be prepared for a lengthy discussion on that idea

16:52:55 [JF]

JO: happy to file this as a bug, as-is and then go from there

16:53:19 [JF]

Next looked at content models

16:53:36 [LJW]

LJW has joined #html-a11y

16:53:43 [JF]

mostly good, however there was some issues around SVG and a11y

16:54:27 [JF]

the SVG example(s0 in the spec should be fully accessible

16:54:42 [JF]

Josh thinking of pinging Doug or Chaals about this

16:54:56 [JF]

Josh will file another bug here

16:55:31 [JF]

JO: issue with metadata being "out of band" - confused, what does this mean?

16:55:58 [Zakim]

+??P3

16:56:20 [JF]

Does this relate to @summary?

16:56:35 [janina]

zakim, ??P3 is Leonie

16:56:35 [Zakim]

+Leonie; got it

16:57:16 [JF]

JO: the definition of what Fallback content is needs to be made clear - this is a recurring "discussion" that has surfaced often

16:57:22 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8885

16:57:40 [JF]

this resolves to an existing bug (just referenced by Josh)

16:58:01 [JF]

+1

16:58:09 [JF]

+q

16:58:31 [JF]

JS: doesnt sound like there is a bug her to file - is there an action we need to take?

16:59:06 [richardschwerdtfe]

gotta run

16:59:14 [JF]

JO: suggest that we might need to resurrect bug 8885 at this time

16:59:22 [richardschwerdtfe]

richardschwerdtfe has left #html-a11y

16:59:37 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

16:59:37 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

16:59:42 [JF]

JS: sounds like we're covered

16:59:45 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

16:59:45 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

17:00:13 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

17:00:13 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

17:00:15 [Zakim]

-Rich_Schwerdtfeger

17:00:17 [Marco_Ranon]

SCRIBE: Marco_Ranon

17:00:19 [Joshue]

thanks Marco

17:01:06 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

17:01:19 [kford]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:01:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kford

17:01:26 [Joshue]

I'm going to step off for a bit, can someone please ping me on IRC when table is coming up?

17:01:33 [Marco_Ranon]

JF: want to flag that metadata needs to be discussed further

17:02:06 [JAllan]

rrsagent, set logs public

17:03:48 [Joshue]

thanks JF

17:04:07 [Marco_Ranon]

[discussion about editing wiki]

17:04:58 [Laura]

Laura has joined #html-a11y

17:06:15 [Zakim]

+Laura_Carlson

17:06:42 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: Josh to file bug re 3.2 Elements, followed by further discussion

17:07:07 [Marco_Ranon]

JS: JOC to file bug on SVG example

17:07:29 [Marco_Ranon]

JS no action on device independent events

17:08:04 [Marco_Ranon]

Metadata Content/ Other notes: further discussion

17:08:23 [Marco_Ranon]

Linked to bug 8885

17:09:17 [Marco_Ranon]

s/Metadata Content/ Other notes/Fallback content

17:09:54 [Marco_Ranon]

Metadata Content: further discussion

17:10:32 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: Gregs reccommendations

17:11:33 [Marco_Ranon]

GL: those are use cases for an author element

17:12:03 [Marco_Ranon]

GL: there is a lack of ways to identify an author

17:13:19 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.325.aacc

17:13:29 [Marco_Ranon]

JF: probably the group will say that maybe this could be done with microdata/microformats

17:13:37 [Marco_Ranon]

JS: to be discussed

17:13:52 [KimPatch]

KimPatch has joined #html-a11y

17:14:03 [Zakim]

-Leonie

17:14:24 [JAllan]

zakim, aacc is really KimPatch

17:14:24 [Zakim]

+KimPatch; got it

17:15:12 [Marco_Ranon]

GL: what is the decision on the two decisions: using keywords or author?

17:15:57 [Marco_Ranon]

GL: i don't thing microdata/microformats would address the issue

17:16:06 [Zakim]

+??P3

17:16:45 [Marco_Ranon]

JF: probably keyboard is a good reccommendation, but author is microformats

17:17:37 [Marco_Ranon]

JF: we can discuss this and file a bug if we think it necessary

17:17:45 [Zakim]

-??P3

17:18:13 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: add 'for discussion' to the wiki

17:18:28 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: JF to follow up on both

17:19:12 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: Next is ARIA

17:19:17 [Marco_Ranon]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/ARIA

17:19:41 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: Joseph Scheuhammer's comments

17:20:15 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: general comment, to be discussed

17:21:12 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: First table: 1. menu: Why isn't the implicit ARIA role "menu"?

17:21:24 [Marco_Ranon]

JS: ARIA call should discuss this

17:22:08 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: ARIA call on Monday, then report to the team

17:22:26 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: Joseph and Steve Faulkner on vacation

17:22:28 [Zakim]

+??P3

17:22:50 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: we can try to answer now

17:23:07 [Zakim]

-??P3

17:24:04 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: aria role search - applies to a section, not the element

17:25:05 [MichaelC]

action: Rich to write whitepaper on ARIA features that seem similar to HTML features but aren't

17:25:05 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-131 - Write whitepaper on ARIA features that seem similar to HTML features but aren't [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2011-08-04].

17:25:17 [MichaelC]

action-131: we might assign this to someone else, just putting in the tracker for now

17:25:17 [trackbot]

ACTION-131 Write whitepaper on ARIA features that seem similar to HTML features but aren't notes added

17:25:59 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: input type time ect, Why isn't their implicit role "textbox"?

17:26:38 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: there is no appropriate ARIA role for that

17:29:08 [MichaelC]

action-131: questions raised in Joseph's review for LC are the sort of things it would be good to explain http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Spec_Review/ARIA

17:29:08 [trackbot]

ACTION-131 Write whitepaper on ARIA features that seem similar to HTML features but aren't notes added

17:29:33 [JAllan]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:29:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html JAllan

17:30:21 [JF]

+Q

17:31:02 [Marco_Ranon]

Second table: CS answering to all questions, all answers will be in the wiki and will be addressed in the new action 131

17:31:56 [JF]

ack JF

17:32:06 [Marco_Ranon]

JF: i'm working on a note about aria describedby

17:32:17 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: will it go in this section?

17:32:44 [Marco_Ranon]

JF: it impacts a lot of things

17:32:59 [Marco_Ranon]

Next: Insert

17:33:04 [Marco_Ranon]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Insert

17:33:23 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: something might be actionable

17:34:06 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: 3.5.1 log a bug against the mapping document

17:34:36 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: 3.5.3 same as above

17:39:30 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: not sure that's true, who should we ask to?

17:39:34 [LJW_]

LJW_ has joined #html-a11y

17:39:48 [Marco_Ranon]

JS: maybe RS or SF?

17:40:42 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: look for someone to confirm before we file a bug, and see if iot should be addressed as part of WCAG2 techniques

17:41:26 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: 3.5.5 and 3.5.6: are those really problems?

17:41:57 [Marco_Ranon]

JS: ask David Bolter

17:42:42 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: mutation events, it would be good to ask AT vendors about this

17:43:21 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: too weak to opena bug

17:43:44 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: open a bug anyway and look for more information

17:44:20 [Marco_Ranon]

CS: HTML 5 WCAG 2.0 techniques, it would be good to have some

17:45:32 [Marco_Ranon]

MC: there is something in the techniques wiki, but we raise an agenda item to discuss this further in wcag WG

17:46:03 [Marco_Ranon]

JS: short break - 5 minutes

17:46:25 [Zakim]

-Laura_Carlson

17:47:35 [Laura]

Have to go now. Bye.

17:52:24 [kford]

Scribe: KFord

17:52:38 [kford]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:52:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kford

17:53:00 [JF]

zakim, who's here?

17:53:00 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Janina, JF, Marco_Ranon (muted), Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, [Microsoft], Joshue (muted), Greg, Jim_Allan, KimPatch

17:53:02 [Zakim]

[Microsoft] has cyns

17:53:03 [Zakim]

On IRC I see KimPatch, JAllan, Greg, Joshue, JF, Marco_Ranon, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, davidb, janina, trackbot, [tm]

17:53:38 [Marco_Ranon]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Block

17:53:39 [JAllan]

4.5.3. The pre element

17:53:49 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Block

17:53:57 [kford]

Group starting with comments on pre element.

17:54:14 [kford]

MC reading comments from Wiki.

17:54:25 [kford]

JF: A bug has already been filed.

17:54:52 [kford]

Task force agrees with bug.

17:55:19 [kford]

Second comment was around div.

17:55:30 [kford]

No objections to this being a TF comment.

17:55:37 [kford]

No comments on inline.

17:56:38 [kford]

Embeds, canvas and media have no comments that made it to the wiki.

17:56:48 [kford]

JF will be filing media bugs later today.

17:58:47 [LJW]

LJW has joined #html-a11y

17:58:49 [janina]

Media minutes at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/0136.html

17:59:23 [kford]

Imagemaps are next. MC did a review.

17:59:32 [Zakim]

+??P5

17:59:38 [kford]

MC: I had no accessibility issues on the map element

18:00:14 [kford]

MC going over comments on area.

18:00:55 [kford]

CS: Area doesn't sound right at all. Each area needs alt.

18:01:30 [kford]

MC: It explains later that user agents should sort out duplication.

18:01:54 [kford]

Group doesn't think this is right and that UA shouldn't have to sort this out. MC filing bugs.

18:02:04 [kford]

Now on image map.

18:04:15 [kford]

Group talking about relative sizing of images and such as outlined in MC comments.

18:04:25 [kford]

MC asks about what happens with browser zoom.

18:04:37 [kford]

MC: It does seem like some clarification is needed.

18:04:49 [kford]

CS: Also a line on what happens with browser zoom.

18:05:08 [kford]

MC filing bugs. See wiki comments.

18:05:24 [kford]

Now moving to section on math.

18:05:42 [Zakim]

-??P5

18:05:54 [kford]

John Gardener did a areview.

18:06:15 [kford]

CS: I had people from MS look at this and we think the issues are implementation not in the spec.

18:06:43 [kford]

Group now sorting out if math element has correct mappings in other specs.

18:07:49 [kford]

CS thinks a bug might have been filed already or that this was discussed.

18:08:14 [kford]

MC: SteveF filed 10438 which was resolved as won't fix.

18:08:44 [kford]

JS: I think we need a bug.

18:09:03 [kford]

JS will ask John to file bug so this comes as public feedback.

18:10:11 [kford]

Group now talking about alt text on the math element.

18:11:32 [kford]

MC: Spec says the details of how mathml are defined in the appropriate specs.

18:11:43 [kford]

Now looking at SVG.

18:11:51 [kford]

Comments again from John Gardener.

18:12:26 [kford]

JS will ask John to file bug on his comment about talking about image role.

18:13:13 [kford]

Now talking about alt text and title.

18:13:54 [kford]

Janina will need to follow up with John to get issues filed and determine if these go to SVG or HTML5.

18:14:49 [kford]

See MC wiki comments for full details.

18:15:04 [kford]

Now moving to tables.

18:15:15 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

18:15:15 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

18:15:26 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Tables

18:16:10 [JAllan]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:16:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html JAllan

18:17:07 [kford]

Group sorting out whether to talk about JO comments on summary.

18:17:40 [kford]

JO: The examples are not overly accessible, in particular the way they work with screen readers.

18:17:59 [kford]

JO: The examples don't work well today.

18:18:40 [kford]

JO: I used these experiences as as the foundation for my change proposal.

18:19:20 [kford]

JF: There was a question between the author spec and the full spec about the attributes scope could take.

18:19:41 [JF]

@scope bug filed here: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13331

18:20:38 [kford]

JS: Thanks to JO for getting a great talbe change proposal together.

18:20:53 [kford]

JO: I'd like to talk about the change proposal if we could.

18:21:09 [Judy]

Judy has joined #html-a11y

18:21:32 [kford]

JO: I'm trying to give this loads of energy but am quite happen to open source this to my friends and colleagues.

18:21:42 [Joshue]

CP http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary#Extending_.40summary.3F

18:22:12 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

18:22:12 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

18:22:32 [kford]

MC: Three other people submitted comments so we should look.

18:23:32 [kford]

Beleive issue of tables being created without caption caught up in change proposal.

18:23:35 [Zakim]

+Judy

18:24:46 [kford]

MC entering bug details for one of the examples. See wiki.

18:26:49 [kford]

Group now looking at SH comments.

18:28:28 [kford]

Relative to layout tables, TF feels they have achieved the balance needed with role=presentation and still allowing good compat story.

18:28:39 [Greg]

My comment "Reading and navigation order" discusses tables. 25.1.2.4 Reading and navigation order - http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/All#Reading_and_navigation_order

18:29:14 [Joshue]

Joshue has left #html-a11y

18:29:22 [Zakim]

-Joshue

18:29:57 [Greg]

Authors should be able to specify preferred direction and/or order for sequential navigation, even among things such as tables that would not normally have a tab order.

18:29:59 [Greg]

* Use case: Masahiko is reading a web page, and uses browser commands to move the text cursor to the next and previous paragraphs. In most cases this works fine because the suggested reading order is that in which elements occur in the HTML. However, when Masahiko encounters a table that is designed to be read down the columns rather than across the rows, this simplistic navigation is...

18:30:00 [Greg]

...entirely inappropriate. A similar problem occurs when CSS is used to rearrange blocks of text on the screen.

18:30:02 [Greg]

* Recommendation: Allow marking up a table to indicate whether the preferred reading order is by columns, by rows, both, or neither. This could be done with a new attribute, such as orientation="columns".

18:32:01 [kford]

Group indicating GL idea sounding like new feature. Suspect it is too late for feature in HTML 5 but still want to file as a bug.

18:32:35 [kford]

Expect it will get moved to the next version of HTML.

18:35:40 [Judy]

q+

18:36:27 [Judy]

ack j

18:36:44 [kford]

Group now talking about opportunities to get issues raised and when.

18:37:16 [kford]

MC: Anyone can file an individual bug. Just don't put a11ytf on those bugs because a11ytf indicates task force approval.

18:38:26 [kford]

CS: We should be careful about asking for new features without having compelling evidence.

18:39:08 [kford]

JB: There is not 100% agreement on the fact that the HTML 5 spec is feature complete.

18:39:40 [kford]

CS: I'm just saying that if we know something is going to controversial we should have a better case.

18:40:10 [kford]

Group again revisists concept that anyone can file a bug.

18:40:38 [Judy]

s/not 100% agreement on the fact/not agreement on whether/

18:40:45 [kford]

s/revisists/revisits

18:41:13 [kford]

Group now working on schedule because task won't be finished today.

18:42:57 [kford]

Group sorting out scheduling times.

18:43:08 [kford]

MC likes 7A eastern.

18:43:24 [kford]

Group laughs.

18:46:43 [kford]

Group settling on 8A Pacific as a starting time on 8/1. Same time as today's meeting.

18:48:03 [kford]

MC: If you file a bug, please update wiki on the line where you are listed to file a bug.

18:48:54 [kford]

JB: I was looking at a lot of bugs coming to the list and see a lot of good bugs. I appreciate the work.

18:50:35 [Judy]

zakim, who's here?

18:50:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Janina, JF, Marco_Ranon (muted), Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, [Microsoft], Greg, Jim_Allan, KimPatch, Judy

18:50:37 [Zakim]

[Microsoft] has cyns

18:50:38 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Judy, KimPatch, JAllan, Greg, JF, Marco_Ranon, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, davidb, janina, trackbot, [tm]

18:50:53 [MichaelC]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Process_to_submit_HTML_spec_comments

18:51:41 [MichaelC]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Bugs

18:52:06 [kford]

Group going over bug filing and resources.

18:53:04 [kford]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:53:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kford

18:53:16 [kford]

Group jumping to the details element.

18:53:25 [kford]

MC: I looked at this.

18:53:54 [kford]

MC goes over his wiki comments.

18:54:40 [kford]

JS: There was a time we thought details should be expanded to include the longdesc case.

18:55:15 [kford]

MC: We can think of use cases that this element can meet. Do we want to pursue this path or others.

18:55:27 [kford]

CS: I like the details element.

18:55:52 [kford]

CS: We often use more info on our pages and this is tough. I think details would be helpful in this case.

18:56:38 [kford]

CS: If this was done well, supported keyboard access and such I think this would be good.

18:56:58 [kford]

GL: I don't want to overload this.

18:57:04 [kford]

q+

18:57:47 [kford]

q-

18:58:14 [kford]

JS: The question is now do we think this is clear enough.

18:58:40 [kford]

MC: I will file a bug suggest examples that demonstrate use cases on details.

18:58:54 [kford]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:58:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kford

18:58:57 [Joshue]

Joshue has joined #html-a11y

18:59:59 [Zakim]

-Jim_Allan

19:00:09 [Zakim]

-JF

19:00:18 [Joshue]

Joshue has left #html-a11y

19:00:46 [MichaelC]

zakim, list attendees

19:00:46 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Janina, +1.650.468.aaaa, Marco_Ranon, JF, Michael_Cooper, Kelly_Ford, Cooper, cyns, Joshue, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, Léonie_Watson,

19:00:49 [Zakim]

... Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Leonie, Jim_Allan, Laura_Carlson, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, Judy

19:01:03 [Zakim]

-KimPatch

19:01:07 [Zakim]

-Marco_Ranon

19:01:25 [Zakim]

-Judy

19:01:26 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

19:01:27 [Zakim]

-Janina

19:01:29 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

19:01:32 [Zakim]

-Greg

19:04:35 [janina]

janina has left #html-a11y

19:06:02 [kford]

zakim, please part

19:06:02 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, +1.650.468.aaaa, Marco_Ranon, JF, Michael_Cooper, Kelly_Ford, Cooper, cyns, Joshue, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, Léonie_Watson,

19:06:02 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #html-a11y

19:06:05 [Zakim]

... Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Leonie, Jim_Allan, Laura_Carlson, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, Judy

19:06:22 [kford]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:06:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kford

19:08:51 [kford]

rrsagent, please part

19:08:51 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-actions.rdf :

19:08:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Rich to write whitepaper on ARIA features that seem similar to HTML features but aren't [1]

19:08:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-html-a11y-irc#T17-25-05