<judy> hi Josh -- will you be able to join the call today? thanks for the table summary work

<Joshue> Hi Judy

<Joshue> Yes, I will for about 30 mins or so.

<Joshue> You are very welcome, I hope its is useful. Still Work in progress..

<richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich

<Joshue_2> +442033180479

<richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we have quite an agenda

Table summary

<richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: send text directly to the accessibility task force

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: I suspect only a few have looked at it

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: from a form perspective it will need to start as a reopen request

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: It is not doing anything new

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: We need to take the direction on table summary, and any misunderstandings, include it and go through it step by step. We then offer a specific change proposal

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: We have a confirmed offer to get a pre-technical review and walk through wrt. their rules of the road

<richardschwerdtfe> Josue: Katie Haritos-Shea agreed to view

<richardschwerdtfe> Janina: I just wanted to underscore that in making their decisions you don't need table summary as there are newer alternatives. We just need to target where it won't work and why we need to keep it

<richardschwerdtfe> Janina: We need examples and appropriate good use.

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: It is a chicken and egg. Finding use cases in the wild is tough.

<richardschwerdtfe> Janina: Katie started finding in the wild use cases

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: OK

<richardschwerdtfe> Josue: the examples are in the spec. but they are not that good. Adding a simple summary would have improved the spec. itself.

<richardschwerdtfe> Janina: that is a nice example

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: if you give it focus the AT has no features for processing that ...

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: While it is obvious to you it is not obvious to some others

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I can do that

<richardschwerdtfe> Leonie: If you want a pair of hands to help give me a shout

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: any real world examples you have would be a help

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Janina: the stuff Katie was doing ... Can we get Katie to put this on the list

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Can we get Katie to post her examples to the list

<richardschwerdtfe> janina: we need Katie to join the HTML working group

<richardschwerdtfe> Janina: I will follow up with Katie on that

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Can people, while Joshue is here take advantage of it and look through what he has

<Joshue_2> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: any objection to a walk through?

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: The beginning of this would be a reopen request

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: right

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Laura had sent some notes that were specific to what the decision policy says. ... Rational, etc.

<judy> (fyi: rational --> rationale)

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: This proposal does not have that but it is coming

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: then there is the details

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Problems are stated and there is an impact section

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I think it would be better if restructured

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: on impact, this is impact of the change that is proposed.

<richardschwerdtfe> Steve, that is the impact of the change

<richardschwerdtfe> John: the one thing we had with longdesc we had a lot of examples of rationale and we were able to link to them

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: You want a somewhat concise argument for reopening

<richardschwerdtfe> John: supporting documents as it were

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: I am wondering what people think. We don't have arguments where we have already prevailed

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I think has been an example of culling the attribute

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we need to rebut with a compelling argument

<JF> +Q

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: time lag is a problem

<judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: if it is in their decision we must address it here

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: this table summary proposal needs to address everything in there

<richardschwerdtfe> John: one of the things we had with longdesc is the whole discoverability

<richardschwerdtfe> John: This would only be discoverable by screen readers as Rich pointed out.

<richardschwerdtfe> John: that was one of the stronger point that we have

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: what is this additional info

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we have to reiterate our arguments every time

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I may need help with the formatting

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Janina, you will be taking a look format wise?

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we should try to have something for next Monday's call with a final submittal for 2 weeks

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy, we should be focusing our attention on the reopen request.

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: It may be onerous to both at the same time

<richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I need to run and I know what I need to do

<Joshue_2> bye y'all I'll start this work asap

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: that was agenda item 2

<richardschwerdtfe> janina: we have the hidden metadat red herring and the aria-describedy discussion; both are red herrings; perhaps we should ask the chairs to issue decisions on each since they are large parts of many of our issues

<JF> +Q

<richardschwerdtfe> judy: I would like to see a piece written on each

<richardschwerdtfe> Stevef: I need to leave soon but I wanted to say I have done some work on the meta generator

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Why don't we put that aside and take up the metagenerator

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I was to collaborate with John but have not yet

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I started on a change proposal

<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I started to write a rational with new arguments

Meta generator

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: When I started to look into it it says you are using an authoring tool. None of the pages are actually just using an authoring tool

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: In most cases you don't wanted it to forced into conforming content. I think there are reasonably strong arguments against meta generator

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: At this point we need to feed back into what you have here

<richardschwerdtfe> John: At this point we need to feed back into what you have here

<richardschwerdtfe> John: Mike Smith said this seemed like an unintended consequence

<richardschwerdtfe> John: the meta tag has adverse consequences

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I will continue working on it

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I will move things out to another page

<richardschwerdtfe> John: I will find some time this week

<richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I have been doing on my own. Are my arguments and directions accurate?

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Any additional reactions to Steve's question?

<richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I am fine with the way Steve is proceeding

<richardschwerdtfe> John: Maciej did respond

<richardschwerdtfe> John: some of the things Leif had submitted was a little shot gun

<richardschwerdtfe> John: I am still trying to get that link

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: before we wrap are there any other questions Steve?

<JF> Maciej's Response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0063.html

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: this is good as I can point Joshue to this

Longdesc

<richardschwerdtfe> John: we have 2 counter proposals

<richardschwerdtfe> John: Matt is saying no change. It is an opinion piece

<richardschwerdtfe> John: the response form Jonas is that he wants to reenvision describedby to hide content off screen

<richardschwerdtfe> John: rich explained.

<richardschwerdtfe> John: we need to refute notions of aria-describedby

<richardschwerdtfe> John: Jonas is trying to reenvision aria describedby to address the problem

<richardschwerdtfe> Rich: you would have redesign accessibility apis and ATs to address this

<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: one of the question I was asking everyone ... there were not that many overlaps

<JF> +Q

<JF> RS: provided JF with a very detailed overview of the ARIA Mappings to the various APIs

<JF> it was very clear

<JF> In order for a browser to process something that is hidden, it has to be in the tab order

<JF> we have a similar problem in canvas

<JF> if you put it in tab order, you need tabindex

<JF> if it is in the tab order, you must somewhow render it

<JF> that is why we have things like focusring in canvas

<JF> but with an arbitrary element such as video, there is nothing there, and the user gets lost

<JF> so the way to solve this is to make the content visible - which is what we are looking to support with longdesc now

<richardschwerdtfe> John: The one thing that you said is there are times where you do not want the text to be visible

<richardschwerdtfe> John: bubble text

<richardschwerdtfe> John: the details of summary ..

<richardschwerdtfe> John: aria-describedby can be use some of the time for this

<richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I am not suggesting this generically but for reasons of the user allow the end user to render the description

<richardschwerdtfe> John: the way the user does this then the user agent renders it to the user.

<judy> js: it needs to be discoverable

<judy> ...and when it's rendered, it needs to be rich

<judy> rich: need to show an in-context visual indicator.... isn't there a plug-in?

<judy> john: something available that gives a detailed tag

<Laura> Hi

<judy> john: starting to see 3rd party solutions as plug-ins

<judy> rich: starting to see plug-ins for hidden description

<JF> http://blog.ginader.de/dev/jquery/longdesc/examples/webaim/index.php

<Laura> Browser Discoverability of longdesc: http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/ld-ua.html

<janina> scribe: janina

rich: Suggest on video tag some kind of visible mechanism to indicate availability of additional data
... Put focus on that container could allow a screen reader to start reading that content
... Press ESC to dismiss and return to default rendering without the additional data

jf: Only question is trigger to expose that context
... Should be a user option

janina: In the case of video, we have two additional data aspects, perhaps the user would only want one auto shown, and the second exposed only by trigger action

rich: So, to look from the browser perspective, the fallback approach
... We're really saying the same thing
... It's visible only when the user wants it
... Context menu is one possibility

jf: So trigger mechanism is on focus and does something to make the existence of additional data visible on focus

Rich: Yes

jb: How do we pull this all together so it's clearly articulated in one place?

jf: Happy to take what I've already started with Jonas and take it to a Wiki

Rich: First part is clarifying what aria-describedby can, and cannot provide; second part is good use cases for aria-describedby

janina: Want to add to our list of global issues to take up with HTML; Hidden metadata, appropriate expectations of ARIA-Describedby; A11y isn't just screen readers; Not every a11y tech needs to also be a curbcut mainstream solution ...

Rich: I do believe the additional data on video is also a curbcut

<richardschwerdtfe> RSSAgent, make log public

<richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent: make minutes

<judy> judy: will add to the question queue for HTML WG Chairs the need for a decision format in which to address recurring conceptual misunderstandings on accessibility.

<judy> judy: will add to the question queue for HTML WG Chairs the need for a decision format in which to address recurring conceptual misunderstandings on accessibility.

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Harish-O-Shay/Haritos-Shea/
Succeeded: s/?/Can we get Katie to post her examples to the list/
Succeeded: s/discussion/discussion; both are red herrings; perhaps we should ask the chairs to issue decisions on each since they are large parts of many of our issues/
Succeeded: s/hit/hidden/
Found Scribe: Rich
Found Scribe: Rich
Found Scribe: janina
Inferring ScribeNick: janina
Scribes: Rich, janina
Default Present: Judy, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Steve, Lynn_Holdsworth, Joshue, John_Foliot, Leonie, Laura_Carlson
Present: Judy Rich_Schwerdtfeger Janina Steve Lynn_Holdsworth Joshue John_Foliot Leonie Laura_Carlson
Got date from IRC log name: 11 Jul 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/07/11-text-minutes.html
People with action items: