See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 07 July 2011
<thorton> Zakim: +1.408 is me
<scribe> scribeNick: ed
<heycam> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
CM: recently opened, it's in
november
... wanted to clarify when the meeting will be?
ED: svgopen is October 17 to 20,
2011
... TPAC is 31 October to 4 November 2011
DS: there is some overlap in the dates for SVG, Webapps and (missed bit)
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/
CM: it says SVG may move to thu-fri
<heycam> shepazu, http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
ED: would like to know when we'll meet at TPAC, mon-tue or thu-fri
CM, DS: would prefer thu-fri
ED: that's fine with me
CM: if we ask them to swap to
thu-fri that wouldn't cause any conflicts?
... maybe SVG was put mon-tue to not overlap with HTMLWG
DS: will see if we can get it changed to thu-fri
CM: vincent mailed the sheet with
the latest discussions we had
... and CL said CSSWG was happy with those
... so both groups can move forward with chartering
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0008.html
FTR this was the proposal from the svg wg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/att-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.html
DS: will get to it this week,
certainly before the next meeting
... anything we need to discuss wrt that?
CM: is there an FX call before the F2F?
ED: might be good, will send out an agenda for next monday
DS: the pointer-event spec hasn't been updated lately, maybe we need a status update
CM: might be only on
www-style
... TH are you attending the F2F in Seattle?
TH: I might
CM: another reminder for people to put their agenda items on the wikipage
CM: on the call last week we had
a generally positive response to the proposal
... i think it would be good to send a response on the
mailinglist, perhaps an offer to work together
DS: i'm interesting doing more advanced fonts
ED: i do like the markup way, as
already speced, to be able to mix the content and do dynamic
updates
... but I do see the positive aspects of the proposal
... it's just another way to encapsulate the font
CM: the proposal does seem to
allow you to do dynamic stuff, but with a wrapper and do some
binary stuff
... point being, it's possible but not simple, to modify the
font data
... i think it does move to dynamic in-document
manipulation
DS: interpreting and rendering
the font is the bulk of the work, the serialization is
relatively minor
... if this is an acceptable format that everyone supports then
we can try to solve the serialization problem later if
appropriate
CM: i agree with that
... whenever we expose lower level apis ninja javascript
library authors tend to make some nice abstractions from
them
... bringing this topic up was to ask how the group should
respond to the thread
DS: i think we should offer to help, and send a positive response
ED: adding another serialization of svgfonts is fine with me
<scribe> ACTION: CM to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - CM
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. charles, cmccorma)
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3060 - Respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-14].
CM: today is the last day to
respond to the AC review survey
... only complaint is about references and relaxng/dtd
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0009.html
CM: the DTD files in our repo were modified in the first LC?
ED: yes
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd
CM: what were the changes we made?
ED: see the cvs changelog link above
DS: the rng would be informative?
CM: right
... so i don't think it's needed with the REC itself
... so we haven't made one
... we could say someone will make an RNG
... i think CL was going to talk to him about this
<heycam> and murata-san was going to make one
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd
previous REC linked to http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-flat-20030114.dtd
ED: it's in a different location from the spec itself
CM: might make sense to install the modified DTD there too
DS: that works for me
... will check if we can make a change to add the informative
reference when we move to REC
CM: we need the published REC
date in the url anyway
... and we need a new errata document to link to too
... so I expect such changes to be possible
<scribe> ACTION: cameron to copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3061 - Copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-14].
CM: how do we proceed after today with moving to REC?
DS: *reading process
document*
... assume CL and I will take care of it
... we'll get the documents in the right place and publish
<shepazu> http://schepers.cc/retain-a11y-immediately
DS: that's my proposal
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas_Accessibility_Use_Cases
DS: there has been a long
discussion the canvas mailinglist
... rich schwerdfeger claims svg is not accessible
... canvas is an immidiate mode api, svg is a retained mode
api
... they want to add retained mode characteristics to
canvas
... primary use-case is so that screenreaders / magnifiers
you'd be able to find it and zoom
... whatever you need to zoom on
... charles pritchard suggested to make a subtree (you can tuck
in elements inside the canvas element and that's invisible but
can be exposed to a11y tools)
... e.g a dropdown
... other aspects of the subtree is that it can retain
text
... you'd have to do it manually
CM: you'd have to manually mirror
the content
... some proposals had some automated parts in it
DS: the functionality allows you
to make an accessible html version of whatever you made in
canvas
... personally i think it's barking up the wrong tree
... when it was just functional things, say a form control in
canvas that you then made an accessible equivalent of
that
... but then it's also the shape of the thing, the boundingbox
of the form control
... and that's when people said this is svg
... instead of making an svg-like thing, why not just use
svg?
... you can already layer svg on top of canvas
... you can integrate svg and canvas on the rendering level,
and you could put the svg either in the dom, or in the subtree
underneath the canvas, or you could put it in the dom and
reflect it in the subtree
... either put it in the dom, or in the subtree-dom, or a
pointer to the subtree dom
CM: not sure i follow
... the last part
DS: you could e.g put an svg:use element to link to something
CM: what is the distinction?
DS: if you put in svg elements
they could render to the canvas
... but it would have all the location information
CM: the inverse of that seems
logical
... having canvaslike things inside an svg tree
... a pixelbased container
DS: right, that's been discussed before, drawing using the canvas api to an svg:image element for example
CM: that is closer to their main
use-case i think
... make widgets in svg
DS: two vendors have already said that they don't want to add retainedmode functionality to canvas, since there's already svg
CM: in the proposals you'd have
to do manual work to get things accessible
... doing something more complex with WAI and ARIA is what we
need to do
DS: CM your aria-region idea was
reasonable
... curious, how would we like to see svg and canvas mixed? and
would it satisfy the usecases the a11y ppl are looking at
CM: probably we'd get back that svg isn't accessible yet, or if it's enough to allow aria attributes on all svg elements or if we need to do more
DS: we probably have to do a bit
more
... first we have the logical form controls
... then you have the geometric information
... maybe they want to have the geometric info completely
separate from the logical / navigation order stuff and
functionality of the form controls
CM: right, in the subtree theyr'e
using aria attributes to have form controls as values and tab
order
... the region where they're painted on the canvas is defined
in another way
DS: they're trying to accomplish
different things
... whole thing seems like a kludge
... best thing we can do as a group
... with their proposal you'd have to maintain the dom yourself
and mirror the logics
... it seems theyre willing to settle for different but equal,
but if you have to maintain it yourself it's going to be worse
than if you have an api that allows you to do both immidiate
mode and retained mode graphics
... with my API you'd say if you wanted retained or not when
you use the API
CM: so you can use the smae painting calls?
DS: yes
... if you have an asteroids game you have lots of objects that
you need to track but they're not possible to interact with,
until they get close enough to interact with, at which point
you say now i want retained mode
... i think what people liked the most was the idea of only
having to learn one api for canvas and svg, even if there are
some differences between the two
... would like to have a discussion on canvas/svg
integration
CM: good topic for the F2F?
DS: yes
... they may be thinking of full svg implementation compared to
canvas implementation in thirdparty products, and then tipping
over in favor of a simpler model
... not necessarily involving browsers
... however if it's meant to be proprietary then why force it
on everyone?
... will write up some use-cases around this and put it on the
svg wiki
... and we can discuss it at the f2f
<thorton> phone's down!
<shepazu> nope, all good, heycam
<shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/javascript library authors/ninja javascript library authors/ Succeeded: s/to do/to add/ Found ScribeNick: ed Inferring Scribes: ed Default Present: heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.839.aaaa, [IPcaller], ed, Tim_Horton Present: heycam Doug_Schepers +1.408.839.aaaa [IPcaller] ed Tim_Horton Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0007.html Found Date: 07 Jul 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html People with action items: cameron cm[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]