<sandro> Guest: Ivan Herman, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Gavin Carothers, TopQuadrant
<sandro> Guest: Kavi Goel, Google
<sandro> Guest: David Recordon, Facebook
<sandro> Guest: Jay Myers, Best Buy
<sandro> Guest: Dan Brickley, VU
<sandro> Guest: Tantek Çelik
<sandro> Guest: Manu (manu-db) Sporny
<sandro> Guest: Giovanni Tummarello, DERI
<sandro> Guest: Thomas (tlr) Roessler, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Kevin (unknownA) Marks
<sandro> Guest: Unknown (unknownB) PersonB
<sandro> Guest: Unknown (unknownE) PersonE
<sandro> Guest: Edward (hober) O'Connor
<sandro> Guest: Ed (edsu) Summers, Library of Congress
<sandro> Guest: Jason Lorenzen, IPTC
<sandro> Guest: Stephen Paul (singpolyma) Weber
<sandro> Guest: Mike (unknownC) Linksvayer, Creative Commons
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/SemTech2011BOF
<sandro> scribe: sandro
(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)
<sandro> Ivan: Let's go around the room and introduce ourselves.
Ivan Herman: Let's go around the room and introduce ourselves.←
<sandro> (introductions, too fast to scribe. Folks from a lot of places.)
(introductions, too fast to scribe. Folks from a lot of places.)←
<sandro> Ivan: ... I want to find a way that avoid turf war or confrontation, I dont think anyone needs that. To find an understanding of what is really happening.
Ivan Herman: ... I want to find a way that avoid turf war or confrontation, I dont think anyone needs that. To find an understanding of what is really happening.←
<sandro> Ivan: We have two issues. Independent.
Ivan Herman: We have two issues. Independent.←
<sandro> Ivan: 1. Format RDFa vs Microformats vs Microdata
Ivan Herman: 1. Format RDFa vs Microformats vs Microdata←
<sandro> Ivan: 2. Vocabularies themselves -- not the details, but social process to develop them. Indep issues.
Ivan Herman: 2. Vocabularies themselves -- not the details, but social process to develop them. Indep issues.←
<sandro> Ivan: On Format -- not having relevant people from google, ... I would like to avoid "my format is better than your format" the various formats have been around for years have their respective roles, adv disavt.
Ivan Herman: On Format -- not having relevant people from google, ... I would like to avoid "my format is better than your format" the various formats have been around for years have their respective roles, adv disavt.←
<sandro> Ivan: The quesiton is whether microformats and RDFa will be treated the same as microdata by the search engined, or not.
Ivan Herman: The quesiton is whether microformats and RDFa will be treated the same as microdata by the search engined, or not.←
<sandro> ivan: Some blogs, someone from bing team, what is the situation.
Ivan Herman: Some blogs, someone from bing team, what is the situation.←
<sandro> Ivan: Who has information about what the role will be of other formats? Its' one thing what's announcemtn, it's another thing that they do. Anyone have more information on this.
Ivan Herman: Who has information about what the role will be of other formats? Its' one thing what's announcemtn, it's another thing that they do. Anyone have more information on this.←
<sandro> unknownB: microformats has immediate effect on google, green thai curry. people will use any mechanism that improves their search enging. I don't care about the formats, per se. My customers want the data, like they want headlins that are seo friendly.
Unknown PersonB: microformats has immediate effect on google, green thai curry. people will use any mechanism that improves their search enging. I don't care about the formats, per se. My customers want the data, like they want headlins that are seo friendly.←
<sandro> Jay: are we thinking these formats are going to be use for more than search? I can use RDFa internally?
Jay Myers: are we thinking these formats are going to be use for more than search? I can use RDFa internally?←
<sandro> (Kavi arrives.)
(Kavi arrives.)←
<sandro> Jay: If we're looking for more than just search; if I want to do two things at onces.... Person and machine at once.
Jay Myers: If we're looking for more than just search; if I want to do two things at onces.... Person and machine at once.←
12:41:12 <tlr> Thomas Roessler, http://www.w3.org/
Thomas Roessler: Thomas Roessler, http://www.w3.org/←
<sandro> Guest: Aaron (aaronpk) Parecki
12:41:19 <aaronpk> Aaron Parecki http://aaronparecki.com
Aaron Parecki: Aaron Parecki http://aaronparecki.com←
<sandro> Guest: Lora (laroyo) Aroyo, VU University Amsterdam
12:41:25 <laroyo> Lora Aroyo, VU University Amsterdam, http://lora-aroyo.org
Lora Aroyo: Lora Aroyo, VU University Amsterdam, http://lora-aroyo.org←
<sandro> Guest: William (vulcan_wsmith) Smith, Vulcan
12:41:32 <vulcan_wsmith> William Smith, http://www.vulcan.com/
William Smith: William Smith, http://www.vulcan.com/←
<sandro> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius, IKS Project
12:41:35 <bergie> my interest in this comes from using structured data to make web pages editable: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme
Henri Bergius: my interest in this comes from using structured data to make web pages editable: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme←
<sandro> Guest: Bart (SimpsonUS) van Leeuwen
12:41:40 <SimpsonUS> Bart van Leeuwen - http://netage.nl - http://data.brandweeraa.nl
Bart van Leeuwen: Bart van Leeuwen - http://netage.nl - http://data.brandweeraa.nl←
12:41:45 <sandro> Sandro Hawke, http://www.w3.org/People/Sandro
Sandro Hawke, http://www.w3.org/People/Sandro←
12:41:46 <bergie> Henri Bergius, IKS Project
Henri Bergius: Henri Bergius, IKS Project←
<sandro> Guest: Andraz (minmax) Tori, Zemanta
12:41:46 <minmax> Andraz Tori - http://www.zemanta.com
Andraz Tori: Andraz Tori - http://www.zemanta.com←
<sandro> Guest: Jochen (jocrau) Rau, TYPO3 Core Dev
12:42:17 <jocrau> Jochen Rau, TYPO3 Core Dev (http://typo3.org)
Jochen Rau: Jochen Rau, TYPO3 Core Dev (http://typo3.org)←
12:42:29 <tantek> please feel free to type notes / minutes here
Tantek Çelik: please feel free to type notes / minutes here←
12:43:16 <tantek> what was the question?
Tantek Çelik: what was the question?←
12:43:48 <vulcan_wsmith> Utility of RDFa covering both search and structure in one format
William Smith: Utility of RDFa covering both search and structure in one format←
12:44:55 <sandro> Ivan: repeats question for Kavi -- If I make a page in which I use your vocab, from schema.org, but I use microformats or RDFa, will Google/Bing/Yahoo treat that information the same as you treat the microdata? Or will you ignore it?
Ivan Herman: repeats question for Kavi -- If I make a page in which I use your vocab, from schema.org, but I use microformats or RDFa, will Google/Bing/Yahoo treat that information the same as you treat the microdata? Or will you ignore it?←
12:45:32 <tantek> Thanks sandro
Tantek Çelik: Thanks sandro←
12:45:48 <sandro> Kavi: We don't know for sure. We've committed to supporting Microdata. If you use this, you'll get the benefit from the search engine.
Kavi Goel: We don't know for sure. We've committed to supporting Microdata. If you use this, you'll get the benefit from the search engine.←
12:45:56 <danbri> hi folks
Dan Brickley: hi folks←
12:46:09 <danbri> (any chance of an audio stream?)
Dan Brickley: (any chance of an audio stream?)←
12:46:22 <sandro> kavi: there's no support that's being dropped. Everything that's been announced for Rich Snippets continues. The questions is for microformats what will we be able to parse. It's not so tricky.
Kavi Goel: there's no support that's being dropped. Everything that's been announced for Rich Snippets continues. The questions is for microformats what will we be able to parse. It's not so tricky.←
12:46:23 <tantek> hi danbri
Tantek Çelik: hi danbri←
12:46:30 <hober> danbri: I can facetime you in if you'd like
Dan Brickley: I can facetime you in if you'd like [ Scribe Assist by Edward O'Connor ] ←
12:46:34 <tantek> I've asked folks there in person to relay questions etc. here in the channel
Tantek Çelik: I've asked folks there in person to relay questions etc. here in the channel←
12:46:41 <tantek> I'm skyped in via Ivan
Tantek Çelik: I'm skyped in via Ivan←
12:46:44 <sandro> kavi: When we look at markup, most webmasters (78%) don't get all tjhe markup up to spec.
Kavi Goel: When we look at markup, most webmasters (78%) don't get all tjhe markup up to spec.←
12:47:29 <sandro> kavi: Being able to provide good tools and feedback, that is quite costly on our side. So I think the main quesiton is, if there is a continuum here, pure syntax, active outreach, ..... short answer is we dont know, because it depends on the Cost/Benefit.
Kavi Goel: Being able to provide good tools and feedback, that is quite costly on our side. So I think the main quesiton is, if there is a continuum here, pure syntax, active outreach, ..... short answer is we dont know, because it depends on the Cost/Benefit.←
12:47:42 <tantek> BTW - when we speak of microformats as a syntax - since the initial microformats are specifically only for particular vocabularies - the proper comparison to look at would be the 1+ year in development microformats 2.0 effort - which focuses on generalizing microformats syntax and making it orthogonal of vocabularies
Tantek Çelik: BTW - when we speak of microformats as a syntax - since the initial microformats are specifically only for particular vocabularies - the proper comparison to look at would be the 1+ year in development microformats 2.0 effort - which focuses on generalizing microformats syntax and making it orthogonal of vocabularies←
12:47:45 <sandro> kavi: What does the community of webmaster gain by having these additional options?
Kavi Goel: What does the community of webmaster gain by having these additional options?←
12:47:50 <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2
Tantek Çelik: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2←
12:48:04 <tantek> hello manu
Tantek Çelik: hello manu←
12:48:07 <sandro> kavi: We wanted to make life simpler. If we accept more things, what are the upsides to doing that.
Kavi Goel: We wanted to make life simpler. If we accept more things, what are the upsides to doing that.←
12:48:10 <manu-db> hi tantek :)
Manu Sporny: hi tantek :)←
12:48:22 <tantek> kavi - life is always simpler in a dictatorship ;)
Tantek Çelik: kavi - life is always simpler in a dictatorship ;)←
12:48:44 <manu-db> I've been meaning to e-mail you about this whole schema.org thing... heard you on that live radio broadcast a few days ago and couldn't help but nod my head in agreement.
Manu Sporny: I've been meaning to e-mail you about this whole schema.org thing... heard you on that live radio broadcast a few days ago and couldn't help but nod my head in agreement.←
12:49:05 <tantek> I appreciated your blog post also manu.
Tantek Çelik: I appreciated your blog post also manu.←
12:49:15 <tantek> who is speaking right now?
Tantek Çelik: who is speaking right now?←
12:49:25 <sandro> giovanni: The point is this. All it takes to make everyone in this room, etc, happy is to add ONE LINE to the spec, "We will support this vocab ALSO IN RDFa." Then everyone can keep doing what they are doing, all the research and the projects. To support this takes ONE LINE of code, there are existing parsers. No extra parsers to write. Add that sentence, and we're done.
Giovanni Tummarello: The point is this. All it takes to make everyone in this room, etc, happy is to add ONE LINE to the spec, "We will support this vocab ALSO IN RDFa." Then everyone can keep doing what they are doing, all the research and the projects. To support this takes ONE LINE of code, there are existing parsers. No extra parsers to write. Add that sentence, and we're done.←
12:49:31 <sandro> kavi: It's not one line of code.
Kavi Goel: It's not one line of code.←
12:49:34 <danbri> hey tantek, i didn't see Microformats 2 post, but a big +1 to 'Proposal: simplify all microformats to flat sets of properties.'
Dan Brickley: hey tantek, i didn't see Microformats 2 post, but a big +1 to 'Proposal: simplify all microformats to flat sets of properties.'←
12:49:37 <tantek> yeah it's not one line of code
Tantek Çelik: yeah it's not one line of code←
12:49:44 <hober> srsly
Edward O'Connor: srsly←
12:49:56 <sandro> kavi: My question is really what are the use cases. "Make everyone on the web happy"?
Kavi Goel: My question is really what are the use cases. "Make everyone on the web happy"?←
12:49:58 <tantek> danbri - microformats two has been openly discussed since I first brainstormed it on the wiki May 2010
Tantek Çelik: danbri - microformats two has been openly discussed since I first brainstormed it on the wiki May 2010←
12:50:13 <sandro> Giovanni: I have a long list of use cases not addressed by schema.org
Giovanni Tummarello: I have a long list of use cases not addressed by schema.org←
12:50:22 <tantek> and we held an open session discussing it / introducing microformats 2.0 at SXSW 2011 in March
Tantek Çelik: and we held an open session discussing it / introducing microformats 2.0 at SXSW 2011 in March←
12:50:28 <tantek> Giovanni sounds upset
Tantek Çelik: Giovanni sounds upset←
12:50:30 <danbri> i'm sure it has, I'm not complaining! I just missed it
Dan Brickley: i'm sure it has, I'm not complaining! I just missed it←
12:50:45 <tantek> danbri - true enough - easy to miss all the awesome open standards work going on
Tantek Çelik: danbri - true enough - easy to miss all the awesome open standards work going on←
12:50:47 <tantek> :)
Tantek Çelik: :)←
12:50:48 <sandro> Giovanni: I don't understand why you announced it like this. I'm not a partisan, but if we can JUST say RDFa is okay, then everyone is happy.
Giovanni Tummarello: I don't understand why you announced it like this. I'm not a partisan, but if we can JUST say RDFa is okay, then everyone is happy.←
12:51:01 <sandro> kavi: I am asking for the use cases so we can talk through them
Kavi Goel: I am asking for the use cases so we can talk through them←
12:51:05 <tantek> Giovanni - RDFa doesn't make everyone happy.
Tantek Çelik: Giovanni - RDFa doesn't make everyone happy.←
12:51:05 <vulcan_wsmith> Giovanni: Is laying it out there
Giovanni Tummarello: Is laying it out there [ Scribe Assist by William Smith ] ←
12:51:09 <tantek> having *choice* makes everyone happy
Tantek Çelik: having *choice* makes everyone happy←
12:51:11 <danbri> They could say microformats are OK too
Dan Brickley: They could say microformats are OK too←
12:51:16 <sandro> Giovanni: It's really none of Google's businesses, actually.
Giovanni Tummarello: It's really none of Google's businesses, actually.←
12:51:34 <tantek> kavi - we ask for the use cases at microformats.org also
Tantek Çelik: kavi - we ask for the use cases at microformats.org also←
12:51:42 <sandro> Giovanni: You can get into whatever business you want, but let other people have their businesses, too.
Giovanni Tummarello: You can get into whatever business you want, but let other people have their businesses, too.←
12:51:51 <tantek> Kavi, you or Google should not be the arbiter of use-cases
Tantek Çelik: Kavi, you or Google should not be the arbiter of use-cases←
12:52:01 <tantek> that's what open standards communities are for
Tantek Çelik: that's what open standards communities are for←
12:52:04 <tantek> not one company
Tantek Çelik: not one company←
12:52:07 <tantek> or two companies
Tantek Çelik: or two companies←
12:52:14 <danbri> it's not for a couple of big companies to decide by fiat, and say in same breath 'but we'll monitor uptake of the specs we've just overshadowed to see if we got it wrong'
Dan Brickley: it's not for a couple of big companies to decide by fiat, and say in same breath 'but we'll monitor uptake of the specs we've just overshadowed to see if we got it wrong'←
12:52:24 <tantek> danbri - agreed
Tantek Çelik: danbri - agreed←
12:52:30 <sandro> unknownA: I don't want to get into syntacitc bickering; it's about the process, where you three sat down and came up with this alone.
Kevin Marks: I don't want to get into syntacitc bickering; it's about the process, where you three sat down and came up with this alone.←
12:52:48 <tantek> (wonders what it would take)
Tantek Çelik: (wonders what it would take)←
12:52:51 <sandro> ivan: repeatinging, there are two issues here: syntax and vocab management.
Ivan Herman: repeatinging, there are two issues here: syntax and vocab management.←
12:52:54 <danbri> count yourself lucky ;)
Dan Brickley: count yourself lucky ;)←
12:52:58 <tantek> :)
Tantek Çelik: :)←
12:53:00 <sandro> ivan: 10 more minutes on syntax
Ivan Herman: 10 more minutes on syntax←
12:53:27 <danbri> is anyone relaying questions from IRC?
Dan Brickley: is anyone relaying questions from IRC?←
12:53:34 <sandro> unknownA: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the difference in phsilophy
Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the difference in phsilophy←
12:54:14 <tantek> Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly.
Tantek Çelik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly.←
12:54:21 <sandro> kavi: This (richsnippets) team has been doing this for 2 years now. Starting with microformats and RDFa. We didnt want to pick a winner, force something on the world. Lots of tradeoffs. We saw people doing both. Most of the adoption was microformats.
Kavi Goel: This (richsnippets) team has been doing this for 2 years now. Starting with microformats and RDFa. We didnt want to pick a winner, force something on the world. Lots of tradeoffs. We saw people doing both. Most of the adoption was microformats.←
12:54:28 <tantek> "historically most of the adoption has been microformats" (did I hear that right?)
Tantek Çelik: "historically most of the adoption has been microformats" (did I hear that right?)←
12:54:33 <hober> tantek: you did
Tantek Çelik: you did [ Scribe Assist by Edward O'Connor ] ←
12:54:49 <danbri> Q+ please "Would you agree that the uptight, patent-mentioning terms of service could discourage innovation and creative use of schema.org-formatted data? Can the ToS be relaxed?"
Dan Brickley: Q+ please "Would you agree that the uptight, patent-mentioning terms of service could discourage innovation and creative use of schema.org-formatted data? Can the ToS be relaxed?"←
12:54:53 <sandro> kavi: Going and talking with sites, what drove people was How Simple Is This. And the things we think are at the simplest end of the spectrum, are at the most complex for userrs.
Kavi Goel: Going and talking with sites, what drove people was How Simple Is This. And the things we think are at the simplest end of the spectrum, are at the most complex for userrs.←
12:55:01 <tantek> How simple?
Tantek Çelik: How simple?←
12:55:09 <tantek> simple for publishers/authors matters more than simple for developers
Tantek Çelik: simple for publishers/authors matters more than simple for developers←
12:55:45 <tantek> I'm not buying the more confusion over time point - citation required.
Tantek Çelik: I'm not buying the more confusion over time point - citation required.←
12:55:51 <sandro> kavi: We were expecting consolitdation. Then microdata came up as well, and we did a 3rd version. There was no consensus being reached over time, both in syntax and vocab. it was getting worse, not better. Multiple standards, without support for one, and this looked bad.
Kavi Goel: We were expecting consolitdation. Then microdata came up as well, and we did a 3rd version. There was no consensus being reached over time, both in syntax and vocab. it was getting worse, not better. Multiple standards, without support for one, and this looked bad.←
12:56:03 <tantek> if anything we *had* started to see some level of convergence at least on vocabularies among open communities
Tantek Çelik: if anything we *had* started to see some level of convergence at least on vocabularies among open communities←
12:56:06 <sandro> kavi: So we asked how we could drive up adoption
Kavi Goel: So we asked how we could drive up adoption←
12:56:16 <sandro> kavi: So there is the question about what we picked, and the question about the process.
Kavi Goel: So there is the question about what we picked, and the question about the process.←
12:56:34 <sandro> kavi: We made a judgement call. It may not be the call most of the people in this room agreed with.
Kavi Goel: We made a judgement call. It may not be the call most of the people in this room agreed with.←
12:56:37 <tantek> Google picking a winner is not good for the open web.
Tantek Çelik: Google picking a winner is not good for the open web.←
12:56:44 <bergie> maybe there was a good reason for each three to exist?
Henri Bergius: maybe there was a good reason for each three to exist?←
12:56:53 <sandro> kavi: In terms of process, we knew a smaller group would be more likely to get it out the door.
Kavi Goel: In terms of process, we knew a smaller group would be more likely to get it out the door.←
12:56:56 <tantek> bergie - we're still exploring this space of technologies
Tantek Çelik: bergie - we're still exploring this space of technologies←
12:57:01 <tantek> all 3 have strengths and weaknesses
Tantek Çelik: all 3 have strengths and weaknesses←
12:57:08 <sandro> kavi: (philosophy of markup)
Kavi Goel: (philosophy of markup)←
12:57:11 <tantek> and we've been learning from each others innovations
Tantek Çelik: and we've been learning from each others innovations←
12:57:18 <danbri> amen re strengths/weaknesses
Dan Brickley: amen re strengths/weaknesses←
12:57:29 <bergie> tantek: exactly. So Google just pushing a particular format (and the least popular of them!) down everybody's throats is definitely bad
Tantek Çelik: exactly. So Google just pushing a particular format (and the least popular of them!) down everybody's throats is definitely bad [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ] ←
12:57:47 <sandro> kavi: Should we be working with our competitors? We wanted to simplify things for webmasters. Markup is hopelessly muddled. WHATEVER we pick, some people will be upset
Kavi Goel: Should we be working with our competitors? We wanted to simplify things for webmasters. Markup is hopelessly muddled. WHATEVER we pick, some people will be upset←
12:57:47 <danbri> in some ways microdata is like the awkward offspring of microformats + rdfa designs
Dan Brickley: in some ways microdata is like the awkward offspring of microformats + rdfa designs←
12:58:04 <tantek> danbri - I'd disagree with that
Tantek Çelik: danbri - I'd disagree with that←
12:58:12 <sandro> kavi: The acheivement was to get something out there. We know it's not perfect. We can make it better. We hope this can be a step toward great adoption.
Kavi Goel: The acheivement was to get something out there. We know it's not perfect. We can make it better. We hope this can be a step toward great adoption.←
12:58:50 <sandro> David_Recordon: One of the concerns I heard, was if you want to be using schema.org, you can't put RDFa or Microformats in the page. That stops competition and evolution
David Recordon: One of the concerns I heard, was if you want to be using schema.org, you can't put RDFa or Microformats in the page. That stops competition and evolution←
12:58:57 <danbri> i remember seeing a tantek review somewhere that was quite admiring of microdata (did i imagine that?); but it came about thru initially a hixification of an htmlized RDFa -- until rdfa folk objected to use of the name for such a creature, and it got renamed Microdata
Dan Brickley: i remember seeing a tantek review somewhere that was quite admiring of microdata (did i imagine that?); but it came about thru initially a hixification of an htmlized RDFa -- until rdfa folk objected to use of the name for such a creature, and it got renamed Microdata←
12:59:17 <sandro> kavi: That was not the intent -- I hope that's changed. We were just trying to be pragmatic.
Kavi Goel: That was not the intent -- I hope that's changed. We were just trying to be pragmatic.←
12:59:23 <sandro> unknownA: You should have known better
Kevin Marks: You should have known better←
12:59:26 <tantek> Kavi, first, Google should not be picking syntax winners (which was the philosophy in the initial Rich Snippets releases). Second, what is the scientific basis for picking the *least* adopted of the syntaxes? Looks completely unreasonable (scientifically) without presenting data to the contrary.
Tantek Çelik: Kavi, first, Google should not be picking syntax winners (which was the philosophy in the initial Rich Snippets releases). Second, what is the scientific basis for picking the *least* adopted of the syntaxes? Looks completely unreasonable (scientifically) without presenting data to the contrary.←
12:59:32 <sandro> kavi: That was an honest mistake, we'll fix that.
Kavi Goel: That was an honest mistake, we'll fix that.←
13:00:14 <hober> see also http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23schema (thanks for the live-tweeting, kevin)
Edward O'Connor: see also http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23schema (thanks for the live-tweeting, kevin)←
13:00:45 <sandro> ivan: Kavi, you know a guy in ireland made a mirror page with an RDF version of the schema vocabs, with all the examples in RDFa 1.1 (soon, at least) --- Is it so that we (all of us) can tell the world that these alternative syntaxes work -- if you choose to use RDFa, then that's okay -- because the search engines will treat it the same?
Ivan Herman: Kavi, you know a guy in ireland made a mirror page with an RDF version of the schema vocabs, with all the examples in RDFa 1.1 (soon, at least) --- Is it so that we (all of us) can tell the world that these alternative syntaxes work -- if you choose to use RDFa, then that's okay -- because the search engines will treat it the same?←
13:00:51 <sandro> kavi: I guess this is a repeat
Kavi Goel: I guess this is a repeat←
13:01:20 <danbri> (he's talking about http://schema.rdfs.org )
Dan Brickley: (he's talking about http://schema.rdfs.org )←
13:01:26 <sandro> kavi: THere is an underlying addumption that with RDFa you can do a lot of cool things, but with microdata and microformats you can't and we're closing the door to future innovations. I don't agree with that premise
Kavi Goel: THere is an underlying addumption that with RDFa you can do a lot of cool things, but with microdata and microformats you can't and we're closing the door to future innovations. I don't agree with that premise←
13:01:40 <manu-db> Could someone ask Kavi: Do you plan on putting support into the Rich Snippets Testing Tool to display schema.org markup if it's expressed in RDFa?
Manu Sporny: Could someone ask Kavi: Do you plan on putting support into the Rich Snippets Testing Tool to display schema.org markup if it's expressed in RDFa?←
13:02:13 <tantek> manu - have you had a chance to look at microformats 2.0 syntax? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2
Tantek Çelik: manu - have you had a chance to look at microformats 2.0 syntax? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2←
13:02:21 <tantek> I would be interested in your feedback
Tantek Çelik: I would be interested in your feedback←
13:02:27 <manu-db> tantek - no, but we should really talk about that as well
Manu Sporny: tantek - no, but we should really talk about that as well←
13:02:40 <sandro> kavi: When we made this announcement, as three competitors, we couldn't talk about all the things we imagined doing with this data. But we all understand there is more that can be done. If you don't have something to ground the design tradeoffs, then it seems like we have subsumed the semantic web. We're trying to say this is just one thing we accept.
Kavi Goel: When we made this announcement, as three competitors, we couldn't talk about all the things we imagined doing with this data. But we all understand there is more that can be done. If you don't have something to ground the design tradeoffs, then it seems like we have subsumed the semantic web. We're trying to say this is just one thing we accept.←
13:03:01 <tantek> manu - in short, many (most?) of the issues you encountered in developing hAudio have driven the design of microformats 2.0.
Tantek Çelik: manu - in short, many (most?) of the issues you encountered in developing hAudio have driven the design of microformats 2.0.←
13:03:09 <manu-db> tantek - I've been trying to figure out ways to pull the Microformats and RDFa community closer together (it's the whole reason I joined the RDFa group in the first place - to bring both communities closer together)
Manu Sporny: tantek - I've been trying to figure out ways to pull the Microformats and RDFa community closer together (it's the whole reason I joined the RDFa group in the first place - to bring both communities closer together)←
13:03:27 <sandro> kavi: So now we get the opposite flak, "how can you have such small scope". This standard, like others, will have to evolve. People wont follow the spec at scale. All of these thigns will have to change as we get to 100K sites instead of 100.
Kavi Goel: So now we get the opposite flak, "how can you have such small scope". This standard, like others, will have to evolve. People wont follow the spec at scale. All of these thigns will have to change as we get to 100K sites instead of 100.←
13:03:31 <manu-db> tantek - great to hear - I've put it on my reading list, I will review and get back to you.
Manu Sporny: tantek - great to hear - I've put it on my reading list, I will review and get back to you.←
13:03:34 <sandro> kavi: (something about html)
Kavi Goel: (something about html)←
13:03:41 <tantek> manu - one key aspect is to separate syntax from vocabulary
Tantek Çelik: manu - one key aspect is to separate syntax from vocabulary←
13:03:46 <sandro> kavi: Something is better than nothing. It's going to have to change.
Kavi Goel: Something is better than nothing. It's going to have to change.←
13:03:48 <tantek> with microformats 2.0 we achieve that
Tantek Çelik: with microformats 2.0 we achieve that←
13:04:18 <tantek> kavi, those all sound like rationalizations for ignoring/subsuming open standards community work
Tantek Çelik: kavi, those all sound like rationalizations for ignoring/subsuming open standards community work←
13:04:19 <manu-db> tantek - separate syntax from vocabulary - +1000 (I've always believed that Microformats community should focus on vocabs, not syntax)
Manu Sporny: tantek - separate syntax from vocabulary - +1000 (I've always believed that Microformats community should focus on vocabs, not syntax)←
13:04:22 <sandro> kavi: There is room for many opinions. This is a step on a long path. It's not meant to be a be-all end-all, in terms of either syntax or vocab.
Kavi Goel: There is room for many opinions. This is a step on a long path. It's not meant to be a be-all end-all, in terms of either syntax or vocab.←
13:04:26 <sandro> a question: next steps?
a question: next steps?←
13:04:38 <tantek> manu - I think there is still benefit to pursuing microformats-like syntax, hence microformats 2.0
Tantek Çelik: manu - I think there is still benefit to pursuing microformats-like syntax, hence microformats 2.0←
13:04:43 <sandro> kavi: 1. collecting feedback and bug fixes. lots of stuff is coming in.
Kavi Goel: 1. collecting feedback and bug fixes. lots of stuff is coming in.←
13:04:57 <tantek> manu but by separating that discussion from vocabulary, we can work on vocabulary as well
Tantek Çelik: manu but by separating that discussion from vocabulary, we can work on vocabulary as well←
13:05:14 <tantek> kavi - why is it ok to put Google at the middle of this? Google is not W3C. Google is not IETF.
Tantek Çelik: kavi - why is it ok to put Google at the middle of this? Google is not W3C. Google is not IETF.←
13:05:15 <sandro> kavi: 2. due to alienation, some disccusions were not happening. we're planning to reach out and have conversations.
Kavi Goel: 2. due to alienation, some disccusions were not happening. we're planning to reach out and have conversations.←
13:05:26 <manu-db> tantek - yes, I agree... I care less about working on Syntax in uF community, more about working on vocabs in uF community.
Manu Sporny: tantek - yes, I agree... I care less about working on Syntax in uF community, more about working on vocabs in uF community.←
13:05:39 <sandro> kavi: Some of the anger and frustrations I've seen: "why did you go create this new thing, when there's this other thing"
Kavi Goel: Some of the anger and frustrations I've seen: "why did you go create this new thing, when there's this other thing"←
13:05:50 <tantek> manu - that's totally fine - I want to make it so that anyone can work on vocabulary in the microformats community *independent* of syntax
Tantek Çelik: manu - that's totally fine - I want to make it so that anyone can work on vocabulary in the microformats community *independent* of syntax←
13:06:00 <sandro> kavi: We didn't try to re-invent at all, we just polished a bit. Obviously we didnt get it all right.
Kavi Goel: We didn't try to re-invent at all, we just polished a bit. Obviously we didnt get it all right.←
13:06:02 <manu-db> tantek - and I think that's a brilliant move.
Manu Sporny: tantek - and I think that's a brilliant move.←
13:06:34 <tantek> kavi's point of "[we're] collecting feedback and bug fixes. lots of stuff is coming in." indicates an implicit acceptance/value as Google at the middle of this.
Tantek Çelik: kavi's point of "[we're] collecting feedback and bug fixes. lots of stuff is coming in." indicates an implicit acceptance/value as Google at the middle of this.←
13:06:41 <tantek> and that's the biggest problem I have with schema.org
Tantek Çelik: and that's the biggest problem I have with schema.org←
13:06:56 <tantek> it's a subversion of all the open standards community work that *all* of us have done for years
Tantek Çelik: it's a subversion of all the open standards community work that *all* of us have done for years←
13:07:02 <tantek> including tons of people *at Google*
Tantek Çelik: including tons of people *at Google*←
13:07:07 <danbri> tantek - has anyone got a prototype microformats2 generic parser?
Dan Brickley: tantek - has anyone got a prototype microformats2 generic parser?←
13:07:08 <sandro> gavin: ORA did some early ?data on the web. I've never really felt what the problem with RDFa was. What caused the creation of microdata in the first place? It felt like the RDFa WG addressed the problems, and then we still had microdata.
Gavin Carothers: ORA did some early ?data on the web. I've never really felt what the problem with RDFa was. What caused the creation of microdata in the first place? It felt like the RDFa WG addressed the problems, and then we still had microdata.←
13:07:11 <tantek> people like Chris Messina on ActivityStrea.ms
Tantek Çelik: people like Chris Messina on ActivityStrea.ms←
13:07:20 <manu-db> I think that schema.org should be moved to Microformats 2 community (vocab part) or W3C (or both)
Manu Sporny: I think that schema.org should be moved to Microformats 2 community (vocab part) or W3C (or both)←
13:07:21 <tantek> and Joseph Smarr on PortableContacts.net
Tantek Çelik: and Joseph Smarr on PortableContacts.net←
13:07:35 <tantek> danbri - working on it (generic microformats 2.0 parser)
Tantek Çelik: danbri - working on it (generic microformats 2.0 parser)←
13:07:53 <tantek> to produce both JSON and RDF triples (hopefully a bit cleaner than what microdata produces ;) )
Tantek Çelik: to produce both JSON and RDF triples (hopefully a bit cleaner than what microdata produces ;) )←
13:08:01 <sandro> gavin: As a member of the HTML5 WG, I couldn't see the line. Inside google, was there a discussion when this was created? It's been hard to figure out which to use. But now it looks like Google is saying "use microdata". How did Google decide.
Gavin Carothers: As a member of the HTML5 WG, I couldn't see the line. Inside google, was there a discussion when this was created? It's been hard to figure out which to use. But now it looks like Google is saying "use microdata". How did Google decide.←
13:08:19 <sandro> kavi: There is no single or right answer to this question.
Kavi Goel: There is no single or right answer to this question.←
13:08:29 <tantek> manu - regarding moving schema.org - from a technical perspective I'm taking schema.org as brainstorming proposals
Tantek Çelik: manu - regarding moving schema.org - from a technical perspective I'm taking schema.org as brainstorming proposals←
13:08:33 <sandro> kavi: Certainly we could dive into the syntactic details.
Kavi Goel: Certainly we could dive into the syntactic details.←
13:08:33 <minmax> tantek, it is.. but as a web developer, I have to say... finally ... sorry, w3c was neglecting web developers with rdfa for last X years...
Andraz Tori: tantek, it is.. but as a web developer, I have to say... finally ... sorry, w3c was neglecting web developers with rdfa for last X years...←
13:08:45 <tantek> and working to see where it is possible to integrate the brainstorm proposals into various works in progress at microformats.org
Tantek Çelik: and working to see where it is possible to integrate the brainstorm proposals into various works in progress at microformats.org←
13:09:02 <sandro> gavin: As a developer, until schema.org, it felt like two things doing the same thing, and no obvious reason to use one and not the other. And now there is schema.org.
Gavin Carothers: As a developer, until schema.org, it felt like two things doing the same thing, and no obvious reason to use one and not the other. And now there is schema.org.←
13:09:03 <tantek> danbri - excellent - will do !
Tantek Çelik: danbri - excellent - will do !←
13:09:41 <sandro> unknownB: You keep saying you could argue about usage, but no one is using microdata, and it does less than RDFa, and it's no simpler than RDFa 1.1, "but you could argue that it's the way to go".
Unknown PersonB: You keep saying you could argue about usage, but no one is using microdata, and it does less than RDFa, and it's no simpler than RDFa 1.1, "but you could argue that it's the way to go".←
13:09:59 <manu-db> minmax: How was RDFa WG ignoring web developers? We listened to every piece of input we got - primarily because we care about how web developers use this stuff, but also because we're required to!
Andraz Tori: How was RDFa WG ignoring web developers? We listened to every piece of input we got - primarily because we care about how web developers use this stuff, but also because we're required to! [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
13:10:10 <tantek> if this were the 1990s and Microsoft and Netscape had announced they'd developed the next version of HTML for all of us HTML-MN and dictated it - everyone would have flipped out
Tantek Çelik: if this were the 1990s and Microsoft and Netscape had announced they'd developed the next version of HTML for all of us HTML-MN and dictated it - everyone would have flipped out←
13:10:15 <sandro> kavi: Instead of just comparing microdata and RDFa and metatags in the head
Kavi Goel: Instead of just comparing microdata and RDFa and metatags in the head←
13:10:23 <sandro> recordon: That's just RDFa
David Recordon: That's just RDFa←
13:10:26 <tantek> but somehow in the 2010s and it's Google and Microsoft (+ Yahoo Search puppet) and they've developed the next version of semantics for the web and dictated it and people ARENT flipping out?!?
Tantek Çelik: but somehow in the 2010s and it's Google and Microsoft (+ Yahoo Search puppet) and they've developed the next version of semantics for the web and dictated it and people ARENT flipping out?!?←
13:10:31 <sandro> kavi: I dont want to get into that
Kavi Goel: I dont want to get into that←
13:10:53 <minmax> manu-db, ... web developers _do_not_care_ about RDF... it's the wrong starting point...
Andraz Tori: manu-db, ... web developers _do_not_care_ about RDF... it's the wrong starting point...←
13:11:32 <sandro> kavi: There has been relatively small adoption of RDFa or microdata, on the sites we crawl. The BROAD level theme is that the difference in adoption were not what mattered, but it had to be simple and cover just the use cases we wanted to adopt right away.
Kavi Goel: There has been relatively small adoption of RDFa or microdata, on the sites we crawl. The BROAD level theme is that the difference in adoption were not what mattered, but it had to be simple and cover just the use cases we wanted to adopt right away.←
13:11:42 <tantek> minmax - more adoption of RDFa than microdata on the web would indicate that web developers cared *even less* about microdata than RDFa.
Tantek Çelik: minmax - more adoption of RDFa than microdata on the web would indicate that web developers cared *even less* about microdata than RDFa.←
13:11:44 <manu-db> minmax: That is a broad, generalized statement - I'm a web developer and I care about RDF. There are many people out there that don't care, there are many that do care. The great thing about the Web is that we're all given a choice to care about what we want to care about.
Andraz Tori: That is a broad, generalized statement - I'm a web developer and I care about RDF. There are many people out there that don't care, there are many that do care. The great thing about the Web is that we're all given a choice to care about what we want to care about. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
13:11:51 <sandro> ivan: I don't think the discussion of which is better fits here
Ivan Herman: I don't think the discussion of which is better fits here←
13:12:11 <sandro> unknownB: Where do we go from here? cf Peter Mika's study.
Unknown PersonB: Where do we go from here? cf Peter Mika's study.←
13:12:14 <minmax> manu-db, I am just trying to defend the point from an entirely other perspective
Andraz Tori: manu-db, I am just trying to defend the point from an entirely other perspective←
13:12:35 <tantek> minmax - do you have comparable data for your perspective or is it anecdotal?
Tantek Çelik: minmax - do you have comparable data for your perspective or is it anecdotal?←
13:12:37 <edsu> manu-db: so using that logic, it's ok for google to care about microdata too?
Manu Sporny: so using that logic, it's ok for google to care about microdata too? [ Scribe Assist by Ed Summers ] ←
13:12:38 <sandro> Ivan: Kavi you're not giving me a yes or a know. Will you allow RDFa and Microformats to live as equal formats for a few years at least?
Ivan Herman: Kavi you're not giving me a yes or a know. Will you allow RDFa and Microformats to live as equal formats for a few years at least?←
13:12:38 <minmax> manu-db, and I agree it is overgeneralziation
Andraz Tori: manu-db, and I agree it is overgeneralziation←
13:12:50 <minmax> tantek, anecdotal...
Andraz Tori: tantek, anecdotal...←
13:13:29 <minmax> tantek, W3C failed to serve web developers with both RDF and RDFa... RDF was hijacked by enterprise market... so pushing it to web is not what web developers care about
Andraz Tori: tantek, W3C failed to serve web developers with both RDF and RDFa... RDF was hijacked by enterprise market... so pushing it to web is not what web developers care about←
13:13:30 <manu-db> minmax: That's fine, but your perspective sounds exclusionary to a bunch of people that care about Web development /and/ Graph-based data representations.
Andraz Tori: That's fine, but your perspective sounds exclusionary to a bunch of people that care about Web development /and/ Graph-based data representations. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
13:13:30 <sandro> kavi: The goal of schema.org was to reduce the confusion of having several standards that were equal citizens. We *were* letting them play out.
Kavi Goel: The goal of schema.org was to reduce the confusion of having several standards that were equal citizens. We *were* letting them play out.←
13:13:44 <minmax> manu-db, yeah, sorry, I take that back
Andraz Tori: manu-db, yeah, sorry, I take that back←
13:13:52 <sandro> kavi: whether OGP is RDFa is going in circles
Kavi Goel: whether OGP is RDFa is going in circles←
13:14:30 <tantek> folks - here's the data that Google published last time they presented this at *last year's SemTech*
Tantek Çelik: folks - here's the data that Google published last time they presented this at *last year's SemTech*←
13:14:31 <tantek> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_semantic_web_push_rich_snippets_usage_grow.php
Tantek Çelik: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_semantic_web_push_rich_snippets_usage_grow.php←
13:14:36 <manu-db> edsu: Yes, perfectly fine for Google to care about Microdata - they should care! However, they should also care about RDFa and anything else Web developers *choose* to use.
Ed Summers: Yes, perfectly fine for Google to care about Microdata - they should care! However, they should also care about RDFa and anything else Web developers *choose* to use. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
13:14:39 <sandro> kavi: Within google we have people on all sides of these issues. I can say on behalf of Search Quality, that we did not and do not have a horse in this game. It is only a question of what will drive adoption the best. We may have made the wrong decision.
Kavi Goel: Within google we have people on all sides of these issues. I can say on behalf of Search Quality, that we did not and do not have a horse in this game. It is only a question of what will drive adoption the best. We may have made the wrong decision.←
13:14:51 <sandro> kavi: This was our motivation.
Kavi Goel: This was our motivation.←
13:14:54 <tantek> kavi, where's the updated data now?
Tantek Çelik: kavi, where's the updated data now?←
13:15:13 <danbri> question: can we identify a common data model across microdata, microformats2 and rdfa such that we can share and mix vocabs across them?
Dan Brickley: question: can we identify a common data model across microdata, microformats2 and rdfa such that we can share and mix vocabs across them?←
13:15:17 <tantek> why not present updated data instead?
Tantek Çelik: why not present updated data instead?←
13:15:31 <manu-db> +1 to Danbri's question - make sure it's asked in person.
Manu Sporny: +1 to Danbri's question - make sure it's asked in person.←
13:15:32 <sandro> kavi: Could we support more than one format, even if we're documenting just one? That could be a reasonable option. I tried to outline the factors we'd care about that. What kinds of things would it enable?
Kavi Goel: Could we support more than one format, even if we're documenting just one? That could be a reasonable option. I tried to outline the factors we'd care about that. What kinds of things would it enable?←
13:15:42 <danbri> (roughly something that smells a bit like rdf without some of the real-or-perceived clutter)
Dan Brickley: (roughly something that smells a bit like rdf without some of the real-or-perceived clutter)←
13:15:52 <tantek> danbri - that would likely result in trees of objects of property value pairs that get turned into simple triples just for the sake of RDF
Tantek Çelik: danbri - that would likely result in trees of objects of property value pairs that get turned into simple triples just for the sake of RDF←
13:15:53 <danbri> (ie. attribute/value pairs attached to web-identified thingies)
Dan Brickley: (ie. attribute/value pairs attached to web-identified thingies)←
13:16:18 <tantek> basically, the common data model is hierarchies of objects, not triples
Tantek Çelik: basically, the common data model is hierarchies of objects, not triples←
13:16:22 <danbri> the triple view isn't mandatory
Dan Brickley: the triple view isn't mandatory←
13:16:24 <danbri> yeah
Dan Brickley: yeah←
13:16:28 <sandro> ivan: Working through that line would be a way forward. W3C is a player on both formats, and would like the discussion to go on. How can these formats live and find the right messaging, okay for Google... blog items like "you bet on the wrong horse" should not happen.
Ivan Herman: Working through that line would be a way forward. W3C is a player on both formats, and would like the discussion to go on. How can these formats live and find the right messaging, okay for Google... blog items like "you bet on the wrong horse" should not happen.←
13:16:38 <manu-db> danbri, tantek: Something like JSON-LD? http://json-ld.org/
Manu Sporny: danbri, tantek: Something like JSON-LD? http://json-ld.org/←
13:16:47 <edsu> danbri: pasting some microdata/html into http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/ suggests yes :)
Dan Brickley: pasting some microdata/html into http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/ suggests yes :) [ Scribe Assist by Ed Summers ] ←
13:16:52 <manu-db> (we can even make it look exactly like JSON)
Manu Sporny: (we can even make it look exactly like JSON)←
13:17:04 <danbri> the rdfism leaks in when we ask whether type definitions get to have the last say about properties that can occur on that type
Dan Brickley: the rdfism leaks in when we ask whether type definitions get to have the last say about properties that can occur on that type←
13:17:17 <danbri> yeah i was talking to foolip earlier :) great stuff
Dan Brickley: yeah i was talking to foolip earlier :) great stuff←
13:17:21 <tantek> folks, it's wrong for Google (or Google+Microsoft) to dictate vocabularies, let's not lose sight of that
Tantek Çelik: folks, it's wrong for Google (or Google+Microsoft) to dictate vocabularies, let's not lose sight of that←
13:17:24 <welty> what is the "perceived clutter" - has anyone characterized that?
Christopher Welty: what is the "perceived clutter" - has anyone characterized that?←
13:17:32 <welty> is it just URIs?
Christopher Welty: is it just URIs?←
13:17:48 <tantek> just like we wouldn't have accepted Netscape+Microsoft dictating HTML-NSMS
Tantek Çelik: just like we wouldn't have accepted Netscape+Microsoft dictating HTML-NSMS←
13:17:48 <sandro> unknownC: I wanted to raise the formats issue a different way. the relationships of shcema.org and the formats and to extraction. it seems like schema.org has changed microdata a lot, like adding schema defintion, which microdata didnt have before. DO you expect microdata forlks to use that new schema language (which is a lot like RDFS).
Mike Linksvayer: I wanted to raise the formats issue a different way. the relationships of shcema.org and the formats and to extraction. it seems like schema.org has changed microdata a lot, like adding schema defintion, which microdata didnt have before. DO you expect microdata forlks to use that new schema language (which is a lot like RDFS).←
13:18:27 <sandro> unknownC: itemid in html5 vs schema.org ulr property. So the algo in html5 spec gives you a URL literal property, not the subject you might expect.
Mike Linksvayer: itemid in html5 vs schema.org ulr property. So the algo in html5 spec gives you a URL literal property, not the subject you might expect.←
13:18:43 <tantek> unfortunately in the search space, Google and Microsoft are essentially potential bullies - and the release of schema.org is a bullying of open vocabulary efforts.
Tantek Çelik: unfortunately in the search space, Google and Microsoft are essentially potential bullies - and the release of schema.org is a bullying of open vocabulary efforts.←
<sandro> Guest: Sophia P
13:19:05 <sophiap> welty, I would like the structure to be flatter, less hierarchy
Sophia P: welty, I would like the structure to be flatter, less hierarchy←
13:19:25 <tantek> welty - yes - that's been our experience with microformats too - flatter, less hierarchy works better
Tantek Çelik: welty - yes - that's been our experience with microformats too - flatter, less hierarchy works better←
13:19:39 <sandro> kavi: We didnt actually document everything in microdata. In trying to be simple, ... if we could use fewer new attrs, (itemref, itemid, ... maybe those shouldnt have been left out?) In terms of inventing new things, to the best of my memory, we didnt actually change the syntax, but we organized things in a hierarchy
Kavi Goel: We didnt actually document everything in microdata. In trying to be simple, ... if we could use fewer new attrs, (itemref, itemid, ... maybe those shouldnt have been left out?) In terms of inventing new things, to the best of my memory, we didnt actually change the syntax, but we organized things in a hierarchy←
13:19:51 <danbri> tantek - do you have specific areas in mind where you think they might bias the vocab?
Dan Brickley: tantek - do you have specific areas in mind where you think they might bias the vocab?←
13:19:51 <tantek> frankly I was quite surprised by the hierarchy of schema.org - smelled very 1990s object hierarchy like - like lessons learned since (on the Web) were ignored by the schema.org "experts"
Tantek Çelik: frankly I was quite surprised by the hierarchy of schema.org - smelled very 1990s object hierarchy like - like lessons learned since (on the Web) were ignored by the schema.org "experts"←
13:19:53 <welty> the clutter associated with RDF (danbri's term)
Christopher Welty: the clutter associated with RDF (danbri's term)←
13:19:58 <minmax> tantek, as a web developer I have to say... finally, :)
Andraz Tori: tantek, as a web developer I have to say... finally, :)←
13:19:58 <sandro> kavi: We've been careful not to reuse property names across types, to give us flexibility.
Kavi Goel: We've been careful not to reuse property names across types, to give us flexibility.←
13:20:03 <welty> RDF is as flat as you want
Christopher Welty: RDF is as flat as you want←
13:20:22 <tantek> danbri - to put it bluntly, the "experts" that produced the schema.org vocabularies made so many "noob" mistakes that I can't take them seriously
Tantek Çelik: danbri - to put it bluntly, the "experts" that produced the schema.org vocabularies made so many "noob" mistakes that I can't take them seriously←
13:20:23 <sandro> (unknownC is mike l)
(unknownC is mike l)←
13:20:24 <danbri> (the only obvious screwup i could find was spouse being defined as singular; hardly inclusive)
Dan Brickley: (the only obvious screwup i could find was spouse being defined as singular; hardly inclusive)←
13:20:26 <minmax> RDF was largely hijacked by companies serving enterprise market...
Andraz Tori: RDF was largely hijacked by companies serving enterprise market...←
13:20:26 <tantek> they're about 20 years out of date
Tantek Çelik: they're about 20 years out of date←
13:20:41 <tantek> danbri - *tons* of mistakes in there - you weren't looking hard enough ;)
Tantek Çelik: danbri - *tons* of mistakes in there - you weren't looking hard enough ;)←
13:21:02 <tantek> the whole class hierarchy approach is 1990s java-think
Tantek Çelik: the whole class hierarchy approach is 1990s java-think←
13:21:04 <tantek> it's obsolete
Tantek Çelik: it's obsolete←
13:21:08 <tantek> we know better now
Tantek Çelik: we know better now←
13:21:12 <tantek> with *web-scale* markup requirements
Tantek Çelik: with *web-scale* markup requirements←
13:21:34 <manu-db> danbri - yes, lots of issues in schema.org vocab - things that Microformats/RDFa community would've picked up on very quickly.
Manu Sporny: danbri - yes, lots of issues in schema.org vocab - things that Microformats/RDFa community would've picked up on very quickly.←
13:21:35 <danbri> ( the '90s heritage it cites is http://www.cyc.com/opencyc )
Dan Brickley: ( the '90s heritage it cites is http://www.cyc.com/opencyc )←
13:21:41 <sandro> ivan: From a w3c process point of view, but microdata and rdf1.1 are both still working drafts. the portions about the mapping to RDF have bugs reported -- in the WG they have to be settled. I don't think Google will have a problem with that. Neither of these documents is yet a standard.
Ivan Herman: From a w3c process point of view, but microdata and rdf1.1 are both still working drafts. the portions about the mapping to RDF have bugs reported -- in the WG they have to be settled. I don't think Google will have a problem with that. Neither of these documents is yet a standard.←
13:22:11 <manu-db> Can somebody ask Kavi if Google or Microsoft plans to take part in either the Microdata or RDFa standardization work
Manu Sporny: Can somebody ask Kavi if Google or Microsoft plans to take part in either the Microdata or RDFa standardization work←
13:22:23 <manu-db> We would love to have them on board in the RDFa Working Group
Manu Sporny: We would love to have them on board in the RDFa Working Group←
13:22:39 <sandro> ivan: Schema.org is out there, ... how do you envisage the process for the future whereby schema.org might be a place where new vocabs are developed. I place to make it a more open social process? Might be at w3c or not, but I'm curious about the process.
Ivan Herman: Schema.org is out there, ... how do you envisage the process for the future whereby schema.org might be a place where new vocabs are developed. I place to make it a more open social process? Might be at w3c or not, but I'm curious about the process.←
13:22:41 <tantek> Ivan - no it is unacceptable for Google+Microsoft to hijack open vocabulary development
Tantek Çelik: Ivan - no it is unacceptable for Google+Microsoft to hijack open vocabulary development←
13:22:45 <tantek> bullying should not be rewarded
Tantek Çelik: bullying should not be rewarded←
13:23:12 <sandro> kavi: I don't have a great answer right now. I dont think any one company wants to own this in its entirety. By going with 3, we showed we weren't just doing it.
Kavi Goel: I don't have a great answer right now. I dont think any one company wants to own this in its entirety. By going with 3, we showed we weren't just doing it.←
13:23:24 <tantek> "anyone can continue to develop vocabularies" - Kavi (did I hear that right?)
Tantek Çelik: "anyone can continue to develop vocabularies" - Kavi (did I hear that right?)←
13:23:33 <manu-db> That's not a very re-assuring answer, Kavi.
Manu Sporny: That's not a very re-assuring answer, Kavi.←
13:23:39 <danbri> "anyone can continue to develop legacy vocabularies"
Dan Brickley: "anyone can continue to develop legacy vocabularies"←
13:23:41 <sandro> kavi: (1) Any one CAN continue to develop vocabs. We might adopt them, maybe with the same syntax, maybe different syntax.
Kavi Goel: (1) Any one CAN continue to develop vocabs. We might adopt them, maybe with the same syntax, maybe different syntax.←
13:23:47 <tantek> danbri - microformats.org *is* very wikipedia-like (with process etc.) for vocabularies
Tantek Çelik: danbri - microformats.org *is* very wikipedia-like (with process etc.) for vocabularies←
13:23:53 <tantek> that's the point of microformats.org/wiki/process
Tantek Çelik: that's the point of microformats.org/wiki/process←
13:23:56 <sandro> kavi: (2) (missed)
Kavi Goel: (2) (missed)←
13:24:15 <danbri> yup, but wikipedia is wikipedia-scale ... can we (at some point) just cut over to use that?
Dan Brickley: yup, but wikipedia is wikipedia-scale ... can we (at some point) just cut over to use that?←
13:24:31 <sandro> kavi: Then it leaves the question of where is the completely open discussion... We don't have an answer yet, but this is important. We'll need to sort out the stuff that's out there.
Kavi Goel: Then it leaves the question of where is the completely open discussion... We don't have an answer yet, but this is important. We'll need to sort out the stuff that's out there.←
13:24:39 <tantek> danbri - no because wikipedia processes are for content, not vocabularies
Tantek Çelik: danbri - no because wikipedia processes are for content, not vocabularies←
13:24:50 <tantek> wikipedia processes are not scientific enough to actually do vocabulary development
Tantek Çelik: wikipedia processes are not scientific enough to actually do vocabulary development←
13:24:58 <manu-db> The primary issue with all of this is: If the goal was to speed adoption, it's going to have the opposite effect. This announcement has created a great deal of confusion and uncertainty in the market.
Manu Sporny: The primary issue with all of this is: If the goal was to speed adoption, it's going to have the opposite effect. This announcement has created a great deal of confusion and uncertainty in the market.←
13:25:01 <tantek> plus, microformats.org has a better license - Public Domain / CC0
Tantek Çelik: plus, microformats.org has a better license - Public Domain / CC0←
13:25:06 <tantek> for standards
Tantek Çelik: for standards←
13:25:13 <manu-db> It affects every one of us - Microformats, Microdata, /and/ RDFa.
Manu Sporny: It affects every one of us - Microformats, Microdata, /and/ RDFa.←
13:25:30 <tantek> danbri - it's not and can't, the CC-SA / GNU license makes it infeasable long term
Tantek Çelik: danbri - it's not and can't, the CC-SA / GNU license makes it infeasable long term←
13:25:31 <sandro> unknownA: Ours has an edit button, yours has a feedback button. The CORE of microformats is we reach agreement. YOU said "we did it in a closed room". You havent shown your work, your evidence, how others can get involved. This is the most worrying thing.
Kevin Marks: Ours has an edit button, yours has a feedback button. The CORE of microformats is we reach agreement. YOU said "we did it in a closed room". You havent shown your work, your evidence, how others can get involved. This is the most worrying thing.←
13:25:43 <edsu> manu-db: the omission of facebook at their table suggests to me that might've been part of the intent
Manu Sporny: the omission of facebook at their table suggests to me that might've been part of the intent [ Scribe Assist by Ed Summers ] ←
13:25:55 <hober> sandro: s/unknownA/KevinMarks/
Sandro Hawke: s/unknownA/KevinMarks/ [ Scribe Assist by Edward O'Connor ] ←
13:25:59 <sandro> kavi: That's a totally valid point. Microformats did a great job creating an open community.
Kavi Goel: That's a totally valid point. Microformats did a great job creating an open community.←
13:26:13 <sandro> kavi: There's no good answer for why we didn't do that.
Kavi Goel: There's no good answer for why we didn't do that.←
13:26:29 <tantek> good to hear that admission
Tantek Çelik: good to hear that admission←
13:26:42 <sandro> kavi: Coming to microformats with a whole bunch of new things could have been an option. We did want to get something out there.
Kavi Goel: Coming to microformats with a whole bunch of new things could have been an option. We did want to get something out there.←
13:26:46 <tantek> at microformats we publicly document our research *while* doing development
Tantek Çelik: at microformats we publicly document our research *while* doing development←
13:27:00 <tantek> we've learned those lessons!
Tantek Çelik: we've learned those lessons!←
13:27:10 <danbri> is anyone from bing there?
Dan Brickley: is anyone from bing there?←
13:27:16 <tantek> I don't think so
Tantek Çelik: I don't think so←
13:27:27 <manu-db> Nobody from Yahoo, either?
Manu Sporny: Nobody from Yahoo, either?←
13:27:27 <sandro> kavi: The comment about "be big to be part of this", we that reaching consensus is generally very slow. We started with orgs that had deep vested interests, so we could reach consensus and get something out there.
Kavi Goel: The comment about "be big to be part of this", we that reaching consensus is generally very slow. We started with orgs that had deep vested interests, so we could reach consensus and get something out there.←
13:27:36 <tantek> reaching oligopolic consensus is insufficient
Tantek Çelik: reaching oligopolic consensus is insufficient←
13:27:45 <tantek> that completely goes against the *open web*
Tantek Çelik: that completely goes against the *open web*←
13:27:53 <sandro> unknownA: It's easy if you define consensus as after excluding 90% of the people who care about it.
Kevin Marks: It's easy if you define consensus as after excluding 90% of the people who care about it.←
13:27:56 <tantek> please someone call bullshit on Kavi's consensus among companies line
Tantek Çelik: please someone call bullshit on Kavi's consensus among companies line←
13:28:01 <sandro> kavi: That's a valid criticism.
Kavi Goel: That's a valid criticism.←
13:28:19 <manu-db> I agree - it may be fine for a first cut, but then you let the community review and give feedback (at the very least)
Manu Sporny: I agree - it may be fine for a first cut, but then you let the community review and give feedback (at the very least)←
13:28:24 <laroyo> manu-db peter mika� is here from Yahoo!
Lora Aroyo: manu-db peter mika� is here from Yahoo!←
13:28:30 <tantek> manu - I disagree
Tantek Çelik: manu - I disagree←
13:28:35 <tantek> it's not even a good first cut
Tantek Çelik: it's not even a good first cut←
13:28:38 <tantek> no documentation of research
Tantek Çelik: no documentation of research←
13:28:39 <welty> there are no rules here - you do what works
Christopher Welty: there are no rules here - you do what works←
13:28:40 <tantek> no use-cases
Tantek Çelik: no use-cases←
13:28:42 <tantek> nothing
Tantek Çelik: nothing←
13:28:44 <manu-db> tantek - I didn't say /good/ first cut
Manu Sporny: tantek - I didn't say /good/ first cut←
13:28:45 <sandro> Jason_Lorenzen: re "being big enough" and "developing in a box". IPTC did reach out to them, and they did listen. in the news article area. they're not THAT evil, just talk to them. :-)
Jason Lorenzen: re "being big enough" and "developing in a box". IPTC did reach out to them, and they did listen. in the news article area. they're not THAT evil, just talk to them. :-)←
13:28:52 <tantek> just a schema hierarachy from on high
Tantek Çelik: just a schema hierarachy from on high←
13:28:58 <sandro> Jason_Lorenzen: which is not to say I'm in favor of it.
Jason Lorenzen: which is not to say I'm in favor of it.←
13:29:02 <danbri> 'SEO' is not a use case? :)
Dan Brickley: 'SEO' is not a use case? :)←
13:29:11 <tantek> danbri - SEO is a source of spam
Tantek Çelik: danbri - SEO is a source of spam←
13:29:12 <sandro> unknownA: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this.
Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this.←
13:29:34 <tantek> "I think the microformats process is a great one." - Kavi (did I hear that correctly? -t)
Tantek Çelik: "I think the microformats process is a great one." - Kavi (did I hear that correctly? -t)←
13:29:36 <vulcan_wsmith> SEO = Direct Commercial Interest with the power to override every other use case
William Smith: SEO = Direct Commercial Interest with the power to override every other use case←
13:29:52 <sandro> kavi: The microformats process is a great one. Getting the details to scale is an open question. Microformats hasnt had tons of new formats recently. Maybe there has to be the proper social mechanisms.
Kavi Goel: The microformats process is a great one. Getting the details to scale is an open question. Microformats hasnt had tons of new formats recently. Maybe there has to be the proper social mechanisms.←
13:29:58 <sandro> unknownA: microformats2
Kevin Marks: microformats2←
13:29:58 <vulcan_wsmith> which is a problem, but I don't know if it's google's problem
William Smith: which is a problem, but I don't know if it's google's problem←
13:30:09 <tantek> doing good formats / vocabularies is *hard* folks
Tantek Çelik: doing good formats / vocabularies is *hard* folks←
13:30:25 <tantek> most never get past the "do some research" phase
Tantek Çelik: most never get past the "do some research" phase←
13:30:49 <sandro> andra: I heard people say 90% of the people are ignored. the point is not the people in this room. the process leading to RDFa didn't include all those voices either.
Andraz Tori: I heard people say 90% of the people are ignored. the point is not the people in this room. the process leading to RDFa didn't include all those voices either.←
13:31:01 <sandro> andra: Think about what will bring the most value to those people, not in this room.
Andraz Tori: Think about what will bring the most value to those people, not in this room.←
13:31:32 <danbri> tantek, where is the 'cut' line between vocabs that ought to be done at microformats.org, versus 'domain specific' vocabs done off in separate fora? (lifescience stuff? music ontology?)
Dan Brickley: tantek, where is the 'cut' line between vocabs that ought to be done at microformats.org, versus 'domain specific' vocabs done off in separate fora? (lifescience stuff? music ontology?)←
13:31:49 <danbri> (not meant argumentatively; it seems a genuinely tricky thing to find balance)
Dan Brickley: (not meant argumentatively; it seems a genuinely tricky thing to find balance)←
13:31:50 <sandro> gavin: I think it's UNBELIEVABLE that Bing, Yahoo, and Google have now finally said that semantics in the document help! The fact that we're having this conversation is a good thing. I want to thank you for coming.
Gavin Carothers: I think it's UNBELIEVABLE that Bing, Yahoo, and Google have now finally said that semantics in the document help! The fact that we're having this conversation is a good thing. I want to thank you for coming.←
13:31:55 <sandro> (applause)
(applause)←
13:31:56 <tantek> danbri - there is no such cut
Tantek Çelik: danbri - there is no such cut←
13:32:05 <sandro> giov: Why didnt facebook join in
Giovanni Tummarello: Why didnt facebook join in←
13:32:08 <tantek> anyone is welcome to start and do research, publicly with public licenses at microformats.org
Tantek Çelik: anyone is welcome to start and do research, publicly with public licenses at microformats.org←
13:32:15 <sandro> kavi: We invited them.
Kavi Goel: We invited them.←
13:32:17 <singpolyma> microformats hasn't had a lot of new formats because new formats are not the goal, good ones are :P
Stephen Weber: microformats hasn't had a lot of new formats because new formats are not the goal, good ones are :P←
13:32:34 <sandro> recordon: We dont understand the value in yet another thing new, here.
David Recordon: We dont understand the value in yet another thing new, here.←
13:32:40 <manu-db> andr, what do you mean "RDFa didn't include all those voices"? Open standards process - open issue tracker - yes, people complained, we made changes for many of those complaints - couldn't for others.
Manu Sporny: andr, what do you mean "RDFa didn't include all those voices"? Open standards process - open issue tracker - yes, people complained, we made changes for many of those complaints - couldn't for others.←
13:32:58 <manu-db> andr, to say that people couldn't comment is misrepresenting how the standards process works.
Manu Sporny: andr, to say that people couldn't comment is misrepresenting how the standards process works.←
13:33:09 <sandro> kavi: How we make things more simple... We simplified in ways, but made things more complex in having more things you can mark up.
Kavi Goel: How we make things more simple... We simplified in ways, but made things more complex in having more things you can mark up.←
13:33:37 <sandro> kavi: Even if everyone agrees, there's going to be a long tail not adopting this.
Kavi Goel: Even if everyone agrees, there's going to be a long tail not adopting this.←
13:33:52 <tantek> to be blunt it doesn't sound like we made much progress in this BOF
Tantek Çelik: to be blunt it doesn't sound like we made much progress in this BOF←
13:34:01 <manu-db> Did Kavi say that they asked Facebook to join and Facebook didn't join?
Manu Sporny: Did Kavi say that they asked Facebook to join and Facebook didn't join?←
13:34:06 <bergie> yes
Henri Bergius: yes←
13:34:07 <tlr> yes
Thomas Roessler: yes←
13:34:16 <sandro> ivan: People are gathering to use this room for the next sessions. Where do we go from here? Kavi, you can tell there are unhappy people.... Nobody wants unhappy people.
Ivan Herman: People are gathering to use this room for the next sessions. Where do we go from here? Kavi, you can tell there are unhappy people.... Nobody wants unhappy people.←
13:34:21 <tantek> the arrogance of Google+Microsoft taking a top-down vocabulary approach for the rest of the web is NOT acceptable
Tantek Çelik: the arrogance of Google+Microsoft taking a top-down vocabulary approach for the rest of the web is NOT acceptable←
13:34:25 <manu-db> Did he elaborate on why?
Manu Sporny: Did he elaborate on why?←
13:34:38 <bergie> tantek: +1
Tantek Çelik: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ] ←
13:34:43 <welty> tantek: -1
Tantek Çelik: -1 [ Scribe Assist by Christopher Welty ] ←
13:34:44 <danbri> is this channel logged?
Dan Brickley: is this channel logged?←
13:34:46 <welty> lighten up
Christopher Welty: lighten up←
13:34:49 <manu-db> Nevermind, seeing David Recordon elaborating - didn't see value in yet another new thing.
Manu Sporny: Nevermind, seeing David Recordon elaborating - didn't see value in yet another new thing.←
13:34:54 <tantek> "contact me" is insufficient
Tantek Çelik: "contact me" is insufficient←
13:35:01 <tantek> Kavi - bring your research to microformats.org
Tantek Çelik: Kavi - bring your research to microformats.org←
13:35:06 <bergie> manu-db: FB said they didn't see reason for yet another format that doesn't make anything easier
Manu Sporny: FB said they didn't see reason for yet another format that doesn't make anything easier [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ] ←
13:35:07 <tantek> and contribute it to the public domain / CC0
Tantek Çelik: and contribute it to the public domain / CC0←
13:35:07 <sandro> kavi: That's the right question. It's not about who is happy, but offering something constructive. Anyeone in this room can contact me.
Kavi Goel: That's the right question. It's not about who is happy, but offering something constructive. Anyeone in this room can contact me.←
13:35:08 <manu-db> welty - Tantek makes a very valid point.
Manu Sporny: welty - Tantek makes a very valid point.←
13:35:15 <welty> which point?
Christopher Welty: which point?←
13:35:24 <tantek> No - moving the discussion to Google is WRONG
Tantek Çelik: No - moving the discussion to Google is WRONG←
13:35:28 <sandro> kavi: there is a dicussion group at google, linked from schema.org
Kavi Goel: there is a dicussion group at google, linked from schema.org←
13:35:33 <tlr> +1 to tantek
Thomas Roessler: +1 to tantek←
13:35:37 <manu-db> That this way of doing "standards development" is not how we do things on the *Open Web*
Manu Sporny: That this way of doing "standards development" is not how we do things on the *Open Web*←
13:35:48 <tantek> manu-db +1
Tantek Çelik: manu-db +1←
13:36:00 <tantek> Hey Kavi - do you see what you've done here?
Tantek Çelik: Hey Kavi - do you see what you've done here?←
13:36:01 <welty> the point of the open web
Christopher Welty: the point of the open web←
13:36:04 <sandro> unknownE: we'll talk about this more at the Rich Snippets session
Unknown PersonE: we'll talk about this more at the Rich Snippets session←
13:36:06 <welty> is that anyone can do anything
Christopher Welty: is that anyone can do anything←
13:36:12 <welty> and whatever works, wins
Christopher Welty: and whatever works, wins←
13:36:15 <sandro> tantek, Kavi hasn't been able to look at IRC, no.
tantek, Kavi hasn't been able to look at IRC, no.←
13:36:17 <manu-db> part of that is the freedom to chose
Manu Sporny: part of that is the freedom to chose←
13:36:20 <tantek> You've gotten a community leader of microformats.org (myself) and chair of W3C RDFa WG to *agree*
Tantek Çelik: You've gotten a community leader of microformats.org (myself) and chair of W3C RDFa WG to *agree*←
13:36:20 <sandro> DONE
DONE←
13:36:27 <manu-db> without having stuff dictated to us by a few
Manu Sporny: without having stuff dictated to us by a few←
13:36:36 <sandro> (ADJOURNED)
(ADJOURNED)←
13:36:44 <edsu> tantek: see, that's progress :)
Tantek Çelik: see, that's progress :) [ Scribe Assist by Ed Summers ] ←
13:36:51 <danbri> :)
Dan Brickley: :)←
13:36:58 <manu-db> Yes - both RDFa and Microformats communities agree - sky will be falling, next.
Manu Sporny: Yes - both RDFa and Microformats communities agree - sky will be falling, next.←
13:37:04 <welty> thanks sandro
Christopher Welty: thanks sandro←
13:37:06 <welty> ttly
Christopher Welty: ttly←
13:37:17 <manu-db> (shouldn't say 'communities'... at least Tantek and I agree)
Manu Sporny: (shouldn't say 'communities'... at least Tantek and I agree)←
13:37:24 <danbri> tantek, we should talk more :) i'll check out the mf 2 stuff
Dan Brickley: tantek, we should talk more :) i'll check out the mf 2 stuff←
13:37:39 <danbri> it looks like we have beginnings of an idea for a common data model too
Dan Brickley: it looks like we have beginnings of an idea for a common data model too←
13:37:45 <manu-db> tantek - I'd like to follow up with you, Kevin Marks and Chris Messina at some point.
Manu Sporny: tantek - I'd like to follow up with you, Kevin Marks and Chris Messina at some point.←
13:37:56 <danbri> one that rdf people can see as triples, and others see as groups of attribute/value pairs ...?
Dan Brickley: one that rdf people can see as triples, and others see as groups of attribute/value pairs ...?←
13:37:56 <tantek> manu - let's keep blogging
Tantek Çelik: manu - let's keep blogging←
13:38:11 <tantek> tantek is now offline from Skype
Tantek Çelik: tantek is now offline from Skype←
13:38:15 <manu-db> Have two in the pipe now
Manu Sporny: Have two in the pipe now←
13:38:15 <danbri> +1 for public conversations rather than 'follow up withs'
Dan Brickley: +1 for public conversations rather than 'follow up withs'←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2011-06-08 22:46:03 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None