IRC log of ua on 2011-06-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:25:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:25:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-irc
16:25:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:25:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:25:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:25:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
16:25:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:25:43 [trackbot]
Date: 09 June 2011
16:38:27 [kford]
Agenda+ Next Meeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
16:38:29 [kford]
Agenda+ User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max
16:38:30 [kford]
Agenda+Continue work on IER items needing content
16:38:32 [kford]
1.9.2-1.9.11 - focus
16:38:34 [kford]
1.11.2. Link info
16:38:35 [kford]
2.7.4 Direct navigation (?)
16:38:37 [kford]
2.7.6 direct Activation (?)
16:38:38 [kford]
2.7.7 Configure Set of Important Elements (?) 2.9.3, 4, 7- 2.9.12 Content control
16:38:40 [kford]
Agenda+ HTML5 Accessibility Review
16:38:41 [kford]
Agenda+Review proposals/comments sent to list.
16:38:43 [kford]
Agenda+Action Item Review
16:55:50 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
16:58:41 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
16:59:14 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:59:22 [kford]
zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:59:22 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa'
16:59:41 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is kford
16:59:41 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:00:13 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:00:13 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:00:14 [Zakim]
1. Next Meeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
17:00:17 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:00:20 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:00:21 [Zakim]
3. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:00:22 [Zakim]
4. HTML5 Accessibility Review [from kford]
17:00:24 [Zakim]
5. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from kford]
17:00:25 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:00:35 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-minutes.html kford
17:00:47 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:29 [Zakim]
+??P0
17:01:33 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:01:55 [Jan]
zakim, ??P0 is really Jan
17:01:56 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:02:07 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:02:07 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:02:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aabb
17:02:26 [kford]
Regrets: Jim
17:02:36 [kford]
Chair: Kelly_Ford
17:02:52 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-minutes.html kford
17:03:16 [Zakim]
+??P5
17:03:24 [sharper]
zakim, ??P5 is sharper
17:03:24 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:04:11 [Greg]
zakim, aabb is me
17:04:11 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:06:53 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:06:53 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:54 [Zakim]
1. Next Meeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
17:06:57 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:06:59 [Zakim]
3. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:07:00 [Zakim]
4. HTML5 Accessibility Review [from kford]
17:07:01 [Zakim]
5. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from kford]
17:07:02 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:07:14 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:07:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Next Meeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/" taken up [from kford]
17:08:31 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:08:40 [Greg]
Invited experts, let Judy know if you're having trouble with conference fees.
17:08:56 [kford]
JS: Anyone who is an invited expert for this confernece who has funding issues may contact Judy. Possible funding available.
17:09:05 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:09:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Next Meeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/, closed
17:09:07 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:08 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:09:13 [jeanne]
s/conference fees./conference fees and travel costs.
17:09:53 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:09:53 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:54 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:09:55 [Zakim]
3. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:09:56 [Zakim]
4. HTML5 Accessibility Review [from kford]
17:09:56 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:09:57 [Zakim]
5. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from kford]
17:09:58 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:10:09 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:10:26 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
17:10:26 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "HTML5 Accessibility Review" taken up [from kford]
17:10:37 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:10:59 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0057.html
17:12:03 [Greg]
KF: PF WG asking for help reviewing HTML5, willing to do overhead of managing the bugs but would appreciate help reviewing the whole document.
17:12:22 [Greg]
KF: They're asking people to sign up to review specific sections.
17:12:36 [Greg]
JS: There are not yet many accessibility comments submitted on HTML5.
17:13:01 [Greg]
JS: People are so busy with existing issues that they don't have time to search for new issues.
17:13:51 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:13:52 [Greg]
JS: One bug was found quite quickly, implying there are many. Finding these new issues is something needed by everyone who cares about accessibility.
17:14:18 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:14:34 [Greg]
MH: Following one thread, often something else catches your eye. Restricting self to one section may not be optimal.
17:15:18 [Greg]
JS: Agrees, we should do our review the way we think will work best.
17:16:06 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:16:11 [Greg]
JS: But we should also help PF by taking on sections as part of our work.
17:16:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.508.877.aacc
17:16:46 [jeanne]
zakim, aacc is really jeanne
17:16:46 [Zakim]
+jeanne; got it
17:16:46 [kford]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
17:17:16 [Greg]
SH: Will volunteer to work on globals.
17:18:15 [sharper]
Yeliz Yesilada
17:18:30 [Greg]
JS: Will try to get Yeliz Yesilada to work on tables.
17:19:37 [Greg]
KF: Will look at "user agents loading web pages" listed in the PF request.
17:19:53 [Greg]
GL: Will work on focus, probably with Kim.
17:21:26 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Work_Topics
17:22:16 [Greg]
JS: That link is to a list of already identified problems/issues, so we don't duplicate effort.
17:23:56 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Issues
17:24:25 [Greg]
JS: Actually that first link is more a list of high-level issues. The second is a more detailed list of individual issues.
17:25:25 [Greg]
MH: Will work on media.
17:27:28 [Greg]
KF: 7/15 is deadline, and hard deadline of 8/3. These are extremely important, as they will definitely hold to those deadlines. PF really needs the input by 7/15. PF will write and enter the bugs, but they need our critical eyes and notes in the Wiki page (either their Wiki if we're reviewing it in response to their question, but OK to put things we raise into our page, where it will...
17:27:29 [Greg]
...eventually be folded into theirs).
17:28:22 [Greg]
KF: Step 1, pick a section. Step 2, review existing issue list. Step 3, raise new issues you find per Jeanne's email.
17:28:52 [Greg]
GL: We should append to each item in our wiki page a link or ID for the corresponding item in PF's, so we can tell which have been migrated and which have not.
17:29:20 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to draft a step-by-step description of making comments on HTML5.
17:29:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-568 - Draft a step-by-step description of making comments on HTML5. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-06-16].
17:29:59 [kford]
zakim, close item 4
17:29:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4, HTML5 Accessibility Review, closed
17:30:01 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:30:02 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:30:20 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
17:30:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max" taken up [from kford]
17:30:40 [Greg]
JR: ATAG is getting the same message/request, but will not be doing as much as a group.
17:30:55 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
17:32:07 [Greg]
KF: Mark started a discussion in email about possibly revising the definition of user agent.
17:32:53 [Greg]
SH: Noted that we had a lengthy discussion this back in 2009 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0012.html)
17:33:33 [Greg]
JS: This is a timely discussion because it's come up in W3C at two separate meetings, where she's been asked by groups how UAWG views designing "user agents".
17:33:52 [Greg]
JS: Question of whether the definition is too browser centric.
17:33:57 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:35:11 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:36:04 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:36:22 [Greg]
JS: Also asked about redefining user agents to exclude assistive technologies. We had said for purposes of UAAG, assistive technologies are not user agents. This served several purposes, including not requiring AT to be forced to follow all accessibility guidelines because they specialize on individual disabilities, and could not do their job if had to address all disabilities. Also, they...
17:36:23 [Greg]
...typically do not render the content, but modify the content that is rendered by other user agents. HOWEVER she thinks that decision may have been accidentally edited out of the recent drafts of UAAG20.
17:36:46 [Greg]
MH: Question of whether AT will have to process HTML at some level.
17:36:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aadd
17:37:26 [jeanne]
zakim, aadd is Kim
17:37:26 [Zakim]
+Kim; got it
17:37:30 [Zakim]
-kford
17:37:33 [Greg]
JR: Feels most important argument is that AT can specialize, second is that UA should not be able to punt on issues by relegating it to AT.
17:38:02 [Zakim]
+kford
17:39:06 [Greg]
MH: Feels the discussion needs to be had. His comments in email reflect his current thinking.
17:39:27 [Greg]
JS: Mark's and Simon's comments on that thread have been forwarded to the WCAG list.
17:39:56 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:39:56 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:39:57 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:39:58 [Zakim]
3. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:39:59 [Zakim]
5. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from kford]
17:40:00 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:40:05 [Greg]
JS: Requests a formally written item she can include in the next survey.
17:41:05 [Greg]
KF: Will try to draft something from the next call.
17:41:45 [Greg]
SH: Thinking about things like Google Docs that are online, how would they comply to operating system standards? Would we say the web is an OS of a sorts and thus the app would have to comply to the Web's standards?
17:42:12 [Greg]
JR: Google Docs is an example of an authoring tool, and ATAG has requirements for supporting specific technologies.
17:42:38 [Greg]
KF: Had concept of Web-based and non-Web-based user agents, a concept borrowed from ATAG, but in discussing it we found it less needed in UAAG.
17:43:35 [Greg]
KF: Also interesting is the bigger user agent than traditional browser (e.g. OS or OS UI), but also smaller user agents (e.g. most mobile apps ultimately render web content).
17:43:42 [jeanne]
I think we moved web based to the standards section - I think it is Principle 5
17:44:32 [jeanne]
+1 that smaller web apps need to comply with UAWG
17:45:02 [Greg]
KF: If the app only uses an OS-level tool to render their HTML, are they user agents? If we ask for features in their UA UI that aren't really applicable?
17:45:42 [Greg]
JS: Such features wouldn't be applicable to media players, either, but we've tried to put in if statements to make sure the success criteria are scoped correctly. Perhaps Kim could have review those to make sure they're all correct.
17:45:53 [Greg]
KP: Sure, will help.
17:46:34 [Greg]
KF: Perhaps wording explicitly mentioning extreme examples of user agents.
17:47:20 [Jan]
Any software (or collection of software components) that can be used by authors (alone or collaboratively) to create or modify web content for use by other people (other authors or end users).
17:47:35 [Greg]
JR: Reads the definition from ATAG.
17:47:38 [jeanne]
filling out a FexEx tracking page is NOT an authoring tool
17:48:24 [Greg]
JR: UA is something that renders web technology into something presented to users.
17:49:36 [Greg]
GL: Question of whether an application using services from another layer, and that layer (e.g. OS dialog presentation) changes to use a Web technology, does your application suddenly become a user agent?
17:50:08 [Greg]
KF: InstaPaper tool strips off most of the junk on a web page, showing only the main article.
17:50:55 [jeanne]
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/instapaper/id288545208?mt=8
17:51:14 [kford]
Instapaper - http://www.instapaper.com/
17:51:24 [Greg]
JR: It's not affecting other people, so not an authoring tool. It plays a role in user agent experience so would be a user agent.
17:52:31 [Greg]
GL: Anything that gets into the stream between a server's hard drive and the user, modifying the content (e.g. via html or dom) would be a user agent component, although since it's not a full browser should not have to do all the user agent user interface features, as they would not be applicable.
17:53:05 [Greg]
MH: Useful to examine the entire process, e.g. authoring process, or browsing process.
17:53:18 [Jan]
s/MH/JR
17:54:01 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:54:01 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:54:03 [Zakim]
2. User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max [from kford]
17:54:04 [Zakim]
3. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:54:05 [Zakim]
5. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from kford]
17:54:06 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from kford]
17:54:20 [Greg]
GL: Very useful to include list of things which are and are not user agents, and why.
17:54:36 [Greg]
KP: Good to put that on the Wiki.
17:54:48 [jeanne]
I will set it up
17:55:40 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
17:55:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2, User AgentDefinition Discussion – 20 minutes max, closed
17:55:41 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:55:43 [Zakim]
3. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]
17:55:46 [Greg]
GL: Once set up, anyone please add examples even if you can't yet answer the question of whether they are or are not user agents.
17:55:52 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
17:56:23 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
17:56:23 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Continue work on IER items needing content" taken up [from kford]
17:58:42 [kford]
IER Items:
17:58:47 [kford]
1.9.2-1.9.11 - focus
17:58:49 [kford]
1.11.2. Link info
17:58:50 [kford]
2.7.4 Direct navigation (?)
17:58:52 [kford]
2.7.6 direct Activation (?)
17:58:54 [kford]
2.7.7 Configure Set of Important Elements (?) 2.9.3, 4, 7- 2.9.12 Content control
18:00:27 [Greg]
GL: Greg and Kim wrote IER for 1.9, which are in the Keyboard, Focus and Navigation Restructuring page on the Wiki, although all have been renumbered now.
18:02:01 [Greg]
JS: Version control problems resulted in the latest draft posted not reflecting the correct latest edits.
18:03:18 [Zakim]
-kford
18:03:19 [Greg]
KF: Therefore we'll end the meeting early. Jeanne and Kim will work on figuring out the version control problems.
18:03:20 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:05:03 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:05:12 [Zakim]
-Kim
18:05:13 [Zakim]
-jeanne
18:05:33 [Greg]
rrsagent, create minutes
18:05:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-minutes.html Greg
18:06:11 [Greg]
zakim, please part
18:06:11 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.883.aaaa, kford, Jeanne, Jan, +1.425.895.aabb, sharper, Greg, Mark_Hakkinen, +1.508.877.aacc, +1.617.325.aadd, Kim
18:06:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:13:14 [Greg]
rssagent, draft minutes
18:13:30 [Greg]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:13:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-minutes.html Greg
18:13:54 [Greg]
rrsagent, please part
18:13:54 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-actions.rdf :
18:13:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to draft a step-by-step description of making comments on HTML5. [1]
18:13:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-ua-irc#T17-29-20