W3C TAG Teleconference of 26 May 2011 -- 26 May 2011

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/26-agenda

<scribe> Scribe: Jeni Tennison

<scribe> ScribeNick: JeniT

<DKA> ahoy-hoy

Convene

<Larry> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/26-agenda

Noah: Approval of minutes?

Approval of minutes

<noah> May 5: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes

<noah> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 5 May 2011 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes are approved.

<noah> May 12: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/12-minutes

<noah> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 12 May 2011 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/12-minutes

Administrative Items

noah: Please tell me about summer schedules
... HTML5 has just gone to last call, due date for comments August 3rd
... we have been specifically asked for TAG review
... Should we have telcon next week?
... Hold time for now, and I will try to cancel if we can

<jar> I cannot make a June 2 telecon

noah: Regrets for June 2

HTML5 Last Call

noah: in the agenda is a link to a press release

<noah> Press release: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/html5lc-pr.html.en

noah: there should be a mail somewhere but I haven't found it
... when we met 2 weeks ago, DKA and ht volunteered to review selected items
... DKA to review with an eye toward mobile

<Larry> I think the TAG should give priority to helping resolve review comments from other W3C working groups and other standards organizations

DKA: I'm confused about language reference: was it previously the TAG's view that the language reference should be a normative document?
... it's non-normative in this last call

noah: There are two documents, one by Mike Smith which is non-normative
... what should be normative is the author-only view of the main spec
... let me ask chairs about where that stands

DKA: The spec has a link to the 'web-developer edition'

noah: it does say it's non-normative

<noah> ACTION: Noah to follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-555 - Follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-02].

<noah> ACTION: Noah to follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ is not normative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-556 - Follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ is not normative [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-02].

<noah> close ACTION-555

<trackbot> ACTION-555 Follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ closed

noah: the web-author view is generated from the same source as the main spec
... we said that was an acceptable compromise
... The TAG's position was that if this was published as normative, we're OK with it.

<Larry> The IANA registration says the "Published specification" is "This document" but appears in both the language reference document and the main document

noah: DKA, are you looking to review things from the perspective of mobile?

DKA: Yes, specifically app cache stuff, to the extent that's still in the spec

noah: What should the TAG's top priorities be for this last call?

ht: I was going to review the list of acceptable strings within the DOCTYPE.
... I want to review carefully the description of prefix binding.

<Zakim> DKA, you wanted to talk about "language reference"

<Zakim> Larry, you wanted to discuss prioritizing TAG topics to "architectural" issues

masinter: I think we should prioritise comments from other Working Groups and standards groups

<noah> I'm sympathetic, but we need a process for doing that. Are you available to review those comments?

masinter: We could communicate this to other groups that are commenting on the spec, that we would help if they want help.

noah: There are some comments that are being carried forward, and there will be more as last call proceeds.

Larry: I'm suggesting we should give higher priority to topics suggested by others rather than within the TAG.

<ht> +1 to requests from WGs

<Zakim> jar, you wanted to agree with lm

JAR: I agree with Larry.

ht: I agree wrt W3C Working Groups.

noah: We could leave this in the minutes, and perhaps a WG will turn up and ask for help
... or we could reach out and tell people?

Larry: Note to the WG chairs

noah: Let's get consensus over such a note.

<noah> . ACTION: Larry to draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org

<noah> ACTION: Larry to draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-557 - Draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-06-02].

noah: There's a lot that we have no one assigned to read or comment on.

<noah> Jeni: Is microdata part of last call.

<noah> Yves: yes

<noah> http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/

<noah> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-microdata-20110525/

<noah> ACTION: Jeni to review Microdata last call Due 2011-06-06 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-558 - Review Microdata last call Due 2011-06-06 [on Jeni Tennison - due 2011-06-02].

<noah> NM: F2F session on HTML5 last call?

noah: Anyone else?

<noah> HTML5

<noah> HTML+RDFa 1.1

<noah> HTML Microdata

<noah> HTML Canvas 2D Context

<noah> Polyglot Markup: HTML-Compatible XHTML Documents

<noah> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives

<noah> ACTION: Jeni to review HTML+RDfa last call Due 2011-06-06 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-559 - Review HTML+RDfa last call Due 2011-06-06 [on Jeni Tennison - due 2011-06-02].

<noah> JAR: Discussion time may be useful

JAR: I predict we'll be able to make good use of discussion time at the F2F

noah: Let's see what the other things are that we want to talk about at the F2F.

<jar> that is, specifically about RDFa and microdata, even if we're not all really well prepared

noah: I think we should look at Polyglot.

<Yves> polyglot should indeed be on the reading list

<DKA> +1 to us commenting on polyglot

ht: There's been a long thread in xml-dev about it.

<noah> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/

<noah> ACTION: Henry to review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-560 - Review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 [on Henry Thompson - due 2011-06-02].

<noah> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-alt-techniques/

noah: Does alt text relate to accessibility?
... is this a priority?

<ht> Here's the xml-dev thread on polyglot: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201105/msg00128.html

Larry: Maybe there's a meta-issue about the proper working group for this document.

ht: The chairs have said they're going to last call without the accessibility area nailed down.

Larry: I'd like to read it wrt is this the right way to specify accessibility techniques.
... IETF have documents about internationalisation, security, privacy etc
... W3C has a group that handles accessibility.
... What guidelines should we give for expressing these techniques: should they be normative? how do we deal with contradictions?

noah: These folks have been wrestling with this for years.

<Larry> I think that the main function of the tag is to "go meta"

noah: They went to last call; no one is asking us to go meta; how are we going to get these large documents reviewed?

Larry: I think we could do this in 15 minutes.

DKA: I was at the AC meeting last week, there was a lot of controversy around HTML5

<Larry> I think you can "go meta" in 15 minutes, it's not necessarily an endless task, but 15 minutes isn't optimal

DKA: ... There are a bunch of open issues, a lot to do with accessibility, a lot of controversy around those issues.

<Larry> I think the issue really has to do with disagreement about how accessibility techniques are made normative, and that commenting specifically on the meta-issue would be appropriate for the TAG

F2F Agenda Review

<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/11F2FAgendaPlanning.html

noah: Let's read through rapidly, and then we'll go back over
... First establish top priorities.
... Commit to 2/3 deliverables.

<Larry> shouldn't HTML5 topics be a "Top Priority" of the F2F?

noah: Move client-side state to publication.

<Larry> I'd give technical topics a higher priority than "align product pages", which is a task in service

Larry: The third topic is not a technical priority, and I'd give technical topics a priority.

noah: I'll make note with HTML5 as a priority.
... Starting to make list of required reading.
... Is ACTION-531 going to be ready for the F2F?

Larry: Having trouble getting input from other people.

noah: We will have some administration.

<Larry> well, I haven't pushed hard on Philippe and Thomas, but i imagine they're busy with HTML5 and Privacy

noah: General Topics
... Discussed having lunch with Jim to see what he has to say.
... Scope is that HTTP is not designed properly to run on these network stacks, so we have serious work to do to rework HTTP.

noah: IAB telcon while we're at the F2F
... ACTION-549 on Larry/Henry/Yves to create agenda
... Copyright & deep linking

JeniT: Would like to go through document
... and identify places where TAG has opinion about impact of legal decisions
... dated version of document will be done shortly and email sent to Noah.

<jar> larry, we've been over that ground. the tag is unanimous in not wanting to give legal opinion. this goes without saying

noah: Privacy

<Larry> not what JeniT said

Larry, I'm not saying make legal recommendations at all...

Larry, I'm saying as we discussed and agreed a few weeks ago, stating the technical impact of particular legal decisions that governments and lawyers could make.

DKA: We should read Privacy Report and try to understand impact.

noah: Ashok, could you lead us in discussion on privacy workshop?

Ashok: Yes
... This is a large and complicated topic, do-not-track is one aspect of it.
... Need to also talk about Dan's stuff on minimisation etc.

<Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask about the XML/HTML report wrt its previous state

ht: We reviewed XML/HTML report last F2F, talked about it with Norm, quick look it doesn't look changed -- can we find out how much it's changed?

<noah> ACTION: Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Norm

<noah> ACTION: Noah to ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-561 - Ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-02].

noah: I think the report has come since the last F2F.

<Zakim> ht2, you wanted to ask for 1/2 a slot to discuss 3023bis and IRIbis status

ht: Need to know about what to do about 3023bis, XML Core is getting antsy.

<noah> ACTION: Henry to organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-562 - Organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis [on Henry Thompson - due 2011-06-02].

<Zakim> jar, you wanted to get a word in edgewise

jar: On Issue-27 -- I'm not asking for F2F time necessarily on this.
... Also, most of my time since last F2F has been on Issue-57
... Would be nice to have a bit of feedback from the TAG on it.

<Larry> issue-57?

<trackbot> ISSUE-57 -- Mechanisms for obtaining information about the meaning of a given URI -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/57

<ht> HST leaving

jar: There's a document that's in draft to read.

noah: DKA: Can you keep in mind ACTION-460

<Zakim> Larry, you wanted to strongly urge avoiding recommending legal positions, and instead document customary & ordinary practice

<jar> replace "JAR hopes to have an ISSUE-57 document" with "JAR will have an ISSUE-57 document"

DKA: Hopping back to Ashok's comment on privacy and do-not-track, but think it might be most timely way that we can focus attention at the F2F.
... We could provide some input into the process.

Ashok: We're in agreement.

noah: HTML/XML Unification
... Assume we do want to discuss this, unless there's not much new.
... Web Apps
... Should be new draft on client-side state, big priority to complete that.
... API minimisation

DKA: On agenda on DAP call next week
... better draft going to be last minute thing, but it's a small document.

<noah> ACTION-514 Due 2011-06-03

<trackbot> ACTION-514 Draft finding on API minimization due date now 2011-06-03

noah: Interaction (ACTION-537)

DKA: Not time to do this.

<noah> ACTION-537 Due 2011-07-15

<trackbot> ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction due date now 2011-07-15

noah: Packaged Web Apps

DKA: Probably nothing to comment on until later in the summer.

noah: F2F is opportunity for you to explain the issues?

DKA: Maybe 20 minutes talking about the different approaches?
... Fits in with HTML5 review, because one approach is app cache.

noah: Security
... Our expertise is spotty.
... John Kemp started something, Larry took it on.

Larry: I need to get hold of John Kemp.

noah: Security is even worse than privacy.
... We were educating ourselves on perma-cookies etc.
... Should we have a session and brainstorm?

DKA: Would be useful to a TAG statement on the web security model.

noah: No one has stepped up to do this.

Larry: There's a websec WG with chairs and agendas

noah: Thomas Roessler is supposed to be heading W3C's security agenda.

<Larry> where is the W3C security work in the process?

jar: if Web security model is basically CORS, then we're waiting for their Last Call, and they haven't done a heartbeat for a year.

Larry: This needs to be an action item for the web security group in W3C.

noah: Does the TAG have a stake in this?

Larry: Nothing on the F2F, I'll work on getting something into the WG.

<Larry> ack

<Zakim> Larry, you wanted to talk about IETF websec

noah: Fragment IDs inc. #! and RDFa
... Action on Jeni & JAR

JeniT: I will draft something for JAR.

noah: Dropping Issue-27 for F2F
... Persistence of references

JAR: I'm not going to have a draft finding but I will have some stuff to present and talk about
... Probably not until a few days before.

noah: Not planning to schedule... ACTION-531
... similarly ACTION-543

<Larry> I owe action on mime-web

noah: ACTION-510

<Larry> action-510?

<trackbot> ACTION-510 -- Tim Berners-Lee to write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510

noah: JeniT should look into ACTION-510

Larry: Perhaps we could meet with Jeff in Boston? Perhaps Thomas?
... other W3C staff members?

<jar> how about Sandro for issue-57 ?

noah: Larry, please see if you can get W3C people involved to talk about registeries
... Happy to invite Sandro.
... Will try for more formal agenda for next Tue/Wed
... Adjourned

- DRAFT -

W3C TAG Teleconference of 26 May 2011

26 May 2011

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