16:56:22 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:56:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-tagmem-irc 16:56:45 JeniT has joined #tagmem 16:57:31 noah has joined #tagmem 17:00:56 zakim, who is here? 17:00:56 sorry, noah, I don't know what conference this is 17:00:57 On IRC I see noah, JeniT, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, jar, plinss, Yves, trackbot 17:01:13 zakim, this is TAG 17:01:13 ok, noah; that matches TAG_Weekly()1:00PM 17:01:17 meeting: TAG Weekly 17:01:17 zakim, who is here? 17:01:17 On the phone I see ??P5, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra 17:01:20 On IRC I see noah, JeniT, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, jar, plinss, Yves, trackbot 17:01:25 Zakim, ??P5 is me 17:01:25 zakim, who is talking? 17:01:29 chair: Noah 17:01:34 DKA has joined #tagmem 17:01:37 +JeniT; got it 17:01:52 noah, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Noah_Mendelsohn (6%), Ashok_Malhotra (30%) 17:02:04 +Yves 17:02:14 +Jonathan_Rees 17:02:26 zakim, who is here? 17:02:34 On the phone I see JeniT, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, Jonathan_Rees 17:02:34 regrets: TimBL, Peter_Linss 17:02:40 On IRC I see DKA, noah, JeniT, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, jar, plinss, Yves, trackbot 17:02:43 scribe: Ashok 17:02:49 \scribenick: Ashok 17:02:55 ht has joined #tagmem 17:03:18 + +44.207.266.aaaa 17:03:31 zakim, aaaa is DKA 17:03:31 +DKA; got it 17:03:33 +plinss 17:03:54 zakim, code? 17:03:54 the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht 17:04:03 present: JeniT, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, Jonathan_Rees, Henry_Thompson, Peter_Linss 17:04:10 +??P10 17:04:22 Topic: Convene 17:04:26 zakim, ? is me 17:04:26 +ht; got it 17:04:39 present+: Dan_Appelquist 17:04:54 zakim, who is here? 17:04:54 On the phone I see JeniT, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, Jonathan_Rees, DKA, plinss, ht 17:04:57 On IRC I see ht, DKA, noah, JeniT, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, jar, plinss, Yves, trackbot 17:05:08 +Noah_Mendelsohn.a 17:05:17 zakim, Noah_Mendelsohn.a is me 17:05:17 +noah; got it 17:05:30 regrets:: Larry 17:06:33 Topic: Convene 17:06:52 Noah goes over the agenda 17:07:47 Noah: I am at risk for next week 17:07:57 yes 17:08:12 26 scribe -- yes 17:08:59 Topic: Administrative items 17:09:32 Noah: TAG Status Report has been published 17:10:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0028.html 17:10:46 Previously announced HTML last call schedule: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2011AprJun/0035.html 17:10:56 Noah: Msg from Paul Cotton re. HTML5 Last Call see above 17:12:03 I think it sounds like a good plan. 17:12:11 sure 17:12:12 +1 to longer period. 17:12:14 8 weeks 17:12:30 Noah: I would like a longer review period --- 8 weeks 17:12:53 Suggest at least one session at f2f to discuss how we approach HTML 5 Last Call review 17:12:54 I do feel it's worth it. 17:13:10 ... should we do a serious read-thru ? 17:13:45 q+ to say 'yes' 17:13:51 ack next 17:13:53 ht, you wanted to say 'yes' 17:13:55 q+ to say 'yes' as well. 17:14:28 q+ to say will check for a few particular things. won't read from end to end 17:14:40 ht: I want to review some items 17:15:51 ... extensive email thread asking prefix bindings issue be reopened 17:16:04 ... want to check that 17:16:29 ack next 17:16:30 DKA, you wanted to say 'yes' as well. 17:16:31 s/asking/discussing what it would take for/ 17:16:41 s/issue be/issue to be/ 17:17:06 DKA: Applications, app cache, device capabilities, etc. 17:17:14 DKA: Applications, app cache, device capabilities, etc. 17:17:15 ack next 17:17:16 jar, you wanted to say will check for a few particular things. won't read from end to end 17:17:24 DanA: I will review stuff related to Web Applications and device capabilities ... and, in general, mobile 17:17:38 JAR: I will look at the mime-type stuff 17:17:46 oops I meant media type registration 17:18:06 HST: DOCTYPE legacy, prefix binding, status of existing HTML in media type registration section 17:21:48 JAR: Asks aboutb reading for the f2f 17:21:58 s/aboutb/about/ 17:22:37 Noah: Please prepare long items 10 pages or more 10 days or 2 weeks before f2f 17:22:50 ... for shorter documents, 1 week 17:23:18 Topic: [17]ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME — Fragment IDs not "grounded" in media type 17:23:27 ACTION-509? 17:23:27 ACTION-509 -- Jonathan Rees to communicate with RDFa WG regarding documenting the fragid / media type issue -- due 2011-03-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:23:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/509 17:23:33 ACTION-543? 17:23:33 ACTION-543 -- Jeni Tennison to propose addition to MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in media type -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN 17:23:33 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543 17:24:03 Being tracked under action 509 and 543 17:24:17 If someone thought they could summarize last week's discussion, that would help me 17:24:23 As I missed most of it. . . 17:25:34 I was going to review minutes, but they didn't appear 17:25:54 q+ to ask about the conneg advice in WebArch. . . 17:26:44 Their previous issue http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/84 17:26:46 JAR: I hope my email is being taken as a public comment and they will respond ... se need to track it 17:26:57 s/se/we/ 17:27:13 Minutes from last week, as edited by Larry (may not be polished yet): http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes 17:27:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes 17:27:57 ...pause so group can read minutes from last week... 17:28:28 http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2011-05-12#resolution_2 17:29:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0027.html 17:30:15 arg... 17:30:21 let me dial back. 17:30:28 -noah 17:30:48 +noah.a 17:30:53 zakim, noah.a is me 17:30:53 +noah; got it 17:31:28 (Manu) Unfortunately, this practice is not covered by 17:31:28  the media type registrations that govern the meaning of 17:31:29  fragment identifiers (see section 3.5 of the URI specification 17:31:29  [RFC3986], [RFC3023], and [RFC2854]). 17:32:13 the above is text he (the editor) just sent me... 17:32:42 Used to say "at present" covered by. 17:33:31 ht: This is very weak 17:34:14 The text from Manu above is not official yet (WG approved) 17:35:01 ht: It would not be possible to write media-type registrations that were consistent with each other and with 3986 17:35:17 Manu says: "we'll run it by you to make sure it works for you and the TAG" (before CR) 17:35:33 JT: Are you saying 3986 prohibits one using fragids in the way that RDF does? 17:35:35 HT: Not quite. 17:36:27 q+ to say please treat non-conneg and conneg cases separately 17:36:49 conneg text about fragid is only in webarch IIRC 17:36:58 Noah: 3986 says "the ids are grounded in the representations that are rertievable" 17:37:29 ... the answer should be consistent for all reprsentations you can serve up 17:37:38 HT: Per Web Arch, fragids must be consistent across all possible connegs 17:38:09 From 3986: 17:38:11 "The fragment's format and resolution is therefore 17:38:11 dependent on the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved 17:38:11 representation, even though such a retrieval is only performed if the 17:38:11 URI is dereferenced." 17:38:29 3986: "Each representation should either define the 17:38:29 fragment so that it corresponds to the same secondary resource, 17:38:29 regardless of how it is represented, or should leave the fragment 17:38:29 undefined (i.e., not found)." 17:38:53 q? 17:38:55 ack next 17:38:56 ht, you wanted to ask about the conneg advice in WebArch. . . 17:39:02 ack next 17:39:03 jar, you wanted to say please treat non-conneg and conneg cases separately 17:39:56 jar: I want people to treat the conneg case differently from the base case ... first we must get the base case right 17:40:04 JAR: Treat conneg and base case separately. Getting the base case right seems a prerequisite to getting conneg right. 17:40:36 ... you could add words to the relevant specs to make them consistent 17:40:42 q+ to say that that text could only be added to application/xhtml+xml if application/xml allowed it 17:40:49 ... conneg is already problem 17:41:12 ack next 17:41:14 JeniT, you wanted to say that that text could only be added to application/xhtml+xml if application/xml allowed it 17:41:31 ht: I'm worry about what the architects of the original system intended 17:42:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0027.html 17:42:11 JeniT: Text could only be added to application/xhtml+xml if application/xml allowed it 17:42:11 q+ to ask what advice we ever gave Chris about 3023bis and this issue? 17:42:20 NM: Am I right that for application/xxx+xml, 3032 bis says "it's XPointer"? 17:42:25 JT: Yes, I think so. 17:42:48 jar: They want RDFa to be a mix-in for any nedia type 17:42:57 s/nedia/media/ 17:43:07 NM: I think Jeni and I are saying that RDFa core seems to conflict with RFC 3023bis. 17:43:18 q? 17:43:22 ack next 17:43:23 ht, you wanted to ask what advice we ever gave Chris about 3023bis and this issue? 17:43:44 q+ to remind what we said to 3023 bis editors 17:44:03 http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-xhtml-rdfa-20110331/ 17:44:36 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rdfa-core-20100422/ 17:45:01 ack next 17:45:02 noah, you wanted to remind what we said to 3023 bis editors 17:45:46 Noah: We discussed 3023 bis situation in London ... our initial proposal was that they drop geric processing from the spec 17:45:57 ... they came back and said that was not possible 17:46:06 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Nov/0078.html 17:46:19 ... we then asked them to make an exception for RDF+XML 17:46:23 s/geric processing/IDs as part of generic processing/ 17:46:42 above link is to message to 3023bis editors 17:47:14 Noah: We have a race condition between RDFCore and 3023bis 17:47:41 Noah: What will pass final review when RDFa goes forward 17:48:08 q+ to say that I'm worried about 3023bis outside RDFa 17:48:15 q? 17:48:17 ack next 17:48:18 JeniT, you wanted to say that I'm worried about 3023bis outside RDFa 17:48:35 ... suggest we wait till Tim is available and then send a note urging consistency between the specs 17:49:17 NM: I made a specific proposal which was: check whether Tim thinks this is serious. If so, signal to RDFa Core and 3023 bis editors that we consider any incompatibilities between their final proposals to be serious, and encourage them to work that out before RDFa core moves to Candidate Recommendation. 17:50:00 JeniT: 3023bis does not discuss uses of frag-ids in actual practice 17:50:36 ht: It will be hard to get XMLCore to agree with you on that 17:51:09 ... strongly held positions about frad-ids and barenames 17:51:16 +1 to ht suggestion 17:51:43 Noah: RDFa folks should work with the 3023bis editors 17:52:09 ... we consider the incompatibility serious 17:52:24 q+ 17:53:59 Discussion about the inconsistencies 17:54:52 Noah: Cannot use barenames and generic processing when you have RDFa semantics 17:55:00 ack next 17:55:46 NM: I think barenames are the main path case for both of them. I think the generic folks need it to work with >any< URI that resolves to an applicaiton/???+xml and with any application 17:56:28 Ashok: Do have suggestions about how the specs could be reconciled? I don't see a possible solution. 17:56:37 First part of what Jeni said is certainly doable: If a fragid is not (syntactically) an XPointer, then it has at most specific media-type-determined semantics 17:56:59 s/fragid/fragid on xml media type/ 17:57:05 JAR: There are other frag-id problems 17:57:33 Noah: I don't see a good solution here either 17:58:10 Second part, if I understood it, is much harder -- to be blunt, XML was there first, and asking the entire XML community to stop treating barenames as ID-grounded, is not going to happen 17:59:10 q? 17:59:13 JAR: I suggested that if there is no element according to XPointer then we resolve by some other means 17:59:22 ... did not get any traction 18:00:04 ack next 18:00:11 HT: If it is not *syntactically* an XPointer then it can be resolved by other means 18:01:12 I'm unconfortable implying that the referent of a URI depends on whether the software doing the processing is specialized 18:01:20 I tried to push this view at the meeting at Google, but Tim would absolutely not go there 18:01:26 I >think< that's what Yves is proposing, no? 18:01:40 q? 18:01:41 Yves: RDFa processor is not an XML processor ... in HTML if you get JavaScript you change semantics of the # tag 18:01:49 +1 to Yves suggest that we step back 18:02:17 yves: Not necessarily a good thing, but it's a fact 18:02:20 YL: That's a fact, it's what's happening. 18:02:31 ... RDF processor will handle frag-ids differently than a XML processor 18:02:37 Yes, but my view is: it's happening, it's hugely broken, and if possible we need to do better 18:02:44 q? 18:03:07 I note that we don't have a problem with the idea that an XML or HTML editor which doesn't expand entity references is not borken. . . 18:03:09 how can we minimize the brokenness 18:03:23 s/borken/broken/ 18:03:44 +1 for f2f 18:03:49 +1 for f2f 18:03:50 +1 for f2f 18:03:53 Noah: Next steps ... wait till Tim is with us ... f2f 18:04:45 JAR: Better if we could something about this before the f2f ... Jeni's msg was great ... we need to admit to the contradiction 18:04:59 Noah: Fix it or live with it? 18:06:01 ht: If we can accept that what comes after the # is client-side and may be different in different situations 18:06:53 Noah: I think this is a huge step backwards 18:07:13 NM: I am >very< unhappy with that view of URIs. The fragid is part of the URI, the URI identifies whatever it identifies, independent of the software that processes it. 18:07:17 q? 18:07:33 JAR: People are in their own world and care only about their uses 18:07:55 there is no constituency for "one web" (in the sense of one URI namespace) 18:08:20 -ht 18:08:42 Noah: Could someone prepare for the discussion as the f2f 18:09:30 ACTION: Jeni with Jonathan to prepare F2F discussion of fragids including #!, RDFa, 3023bis, etc. Due 2011-05-24 18:09:30 Created ACTION-553 - With Jonathan to prepare F2F discussion of fragids including #!, RDFa, 3023bis, etc. Due 2011-05-24 [on Jeni Tennison - due 2011-05-19]. 18:09:37 ACTION-509? 18:09:37 ACTION-509 -- Jonathan Rees to communicate with RDFa WG regarding documenting the fragid / media type issue -- due 2011-03-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:09:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/509 18:10:21 OPEN ACTION-509 18:10:51 Reopening ACTION-509 18:11:34 ACTION-509 Due 2011-06-15 18:11:34 ACTION-509 Communicate with RDFa WG regarding documenting the fragid / media type issue due date now 2011-06-15 18:11:41 ACTION-543? 18:11:41 ACTION-543 -- Jeni Tennison to propose addition to MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in media type -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN 18:11:41 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543 18:11:58 doing same, reopening 18:12:24 ACTION-543 Due 2011-06-15 18:12:24 ACTION-543 Propose addition to MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in media type due date now 2011-06-15 18:12:30 topic: API Minimization 18:12:38 Topic: Web Application Architecture: Design of APIs for Web Applications 18:13:01 DKA: I have upadted the Minimization draft ... not created a dated version 18:13:35 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html 18:13:38 s/upadted/updated/ 18:13:46 Latest draft above 18:14:25 DKA: Incorporated Computer Science paper that lays the foundation 18:14:39 ... I've reached out to the DAPS group 18:14:59 ... continuing to seek feedback and implementation experience 18:15:50 NM: When should TAG members invest in reviewing this in detail? 18:16:40 DKA: Would welcome guidance on where I should invest, not the right time for detailed review. 18:16:52 DKA: Need feedback on other experience/papers on the idea. 18:16:53 NM: Detailed review for F2F? 18:17:00 DKA: That's my goal. 18:17:18 ACTION-514? 18:17:18 ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN 18:17:18 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514 18:17:52 ACTION-514 Due 2011-05-17 18:17:52 ACTION-514 Draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 due date now 2011-05-17 18:18:16 Topic: Overdue Action Items 18:18:26 Topic: Pending Review Actions 18:18:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview 18:18:44 ACTION-524? 18:18:44 ACTION-524 -- Noah Mendelsohn to close versioning product -- due 2011-04-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:18:44 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/524 18:19:13 close ACTION-524 18:19:13 ACTION-524 Close versioning product closed 18:19:22 ACTION-525? 18:19:22 ACTION-525 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check with John before closing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2 WebApps access control -- due 2011-05-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:19:22 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/525 18:20:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011May/0024.html 18:20:21 I would expect that this is somehow related to the discussion about CORS, UMP and XHR2 18:21:07 JAR: I have an ongoing action to alert us when either CORS or UMP goes to Last Call 18:21:21 NM: This is all broadly under the banner of security? 18:21:23 ... things are moving along 18:21:34 JAR: Came up originally because of metadata in URIs 18:21:51 JAR: Defense against cross-site request forgery. 18:22:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2 18:24:19 JAR: I recommend John's write up as a first draft 18:24:37 PROPOSAL: Cloes http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2, take ACTION to create product page on security, with John Kemp's security draft as starting point 18:24:53 s/Cloes/Close/ 18:25:12 RESOLVED: Close http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2, take ACTION to create product page on security, with John Kemp's security draft as starting point 18:25:40 PRODUCT 2? 18:26:05 ACTION: Noah to formulate product page for TAG work on security including John Kemp security draft Due: 2011-05-24 18:26:05 Created ACTION-554 - Formulate product page for TAG work on security including John Kemp security draft Due: 2011-05-24 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-05-19]. 18:26:22 close ACTION-525? 18:26:32 ACTION-552? 18:26:32 ACTION-552 -- Noah Mendelsohn to create logistics page for 6-8 June TAG F2F [self-assigned] -- due 2011-05-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:26:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/552 18:26:40 close ACTION-552 18:26:40 ACTION-552 Create logistics page for 6-8 June TAG F2F [self-assigned] closed 18:26:58 Topic: Overdue Actions 18:26:58 topic: Overdue actions 18:26:59 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner 18:27:11 ACTION-480? 18:27:11 ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN 18:27:11 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480 18:27:23 DKA: Working on it 18:27:44 action-480?http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/05/WebApps.html 18:28:52 ACTION-480 Due 2011-05-24 18:28:52 ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents due date now 2011-05-24 18:28:53 Noah: Please look at all overdue actions and bump the due date if necessary 18:29:00 ACTION-537? 18:29:00 ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN 18:29:00 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537 18:29:37 DKA: No progress 18:29:44 ACTION-537 Due 2011-05-31 18:29:44 ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction due date now 2011-05-31 18:29:52 ACTION-547? 18:29:52 ACTION-547 -- Daniel Appelquist to ask on www-tag and Web Apps mailing lists for advice on moving forward with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html -- due 2011-04-21 -- OPEN 18:29:52 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/547 18:30:15 ACTION-547 Due 2011-05-17 18:30:15 ACTION-547 Ask on www-tag and Web Apps mailing lists for advice on moving forward with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html due date now 2011-05-17 18:30:59 Noah: Adjourned 18:31:06 -Yves 18:31:07 -noah 18:31:07 -JeniT 18:31:09 -DKA 18:31:11 -plinss 18:31:14 rrsagent, make logs public 18:31:31 rrsagent, pointer 18:31:31 See http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-tagmem-irc#T18-31-31 18:31:33 -Ashok_Malhotra 20:38:14 -Jonathan_Rees 20:43:15 disconnecting the lone participant, Noah_Mendelsohn, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM 20:43:19 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 20:43:20 Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, JeniT, Yves, Jonathan_Rees, +44.207.266.aaaa, DKA, plinss, ht, noah 20:52:12 Zakim has left #tagmem