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<trackbot> Date: 11 May 2011
<scribe> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<scribe> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: JF
<scribe> scribe: JF
<janina> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 11 May 2011
<scribe> scribe: JF
JS: looking to summarize outstanding issues
SP: Navigation with full
descriptions is solved, but not heirarchal navigation
... But we've put this on the back-burner until we can start to
do some expermentation - there is a bug in the tracker
already
<Sean> could be me
<Sean> my mic doesnt seem to be working
<Sean> I'm working on it
SP: the 2 open issues are hierarchical navigation, and the second is alt technologies
which is on the list and agenda today, and to finish of the @kind listing for inband
<mark> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Track_Kinds
JS: Picking up from last weeks conversation
not sure how to steer this - are we happy with this list on the wiki? Is it sufficently defined?
Mark: what we are left with is 3 new kids to be proposed
we seem to almost agree to re-open the original bug and request to have them added
the only other thing is to decide what to do with the questions from 3GPP
JS: do we need to worry if our list is 100% accurate before we file another bug?
JF: thought mark suggested that we re-open existing bug
JS: is there disagreement to doing that? who can do it?
mark: whomever is best suited to crafting bug text that the editor is sympathetic too
JB: perhaps Silvia could do that?
SP: I could, but i don't think I should be the one - suggest that perhaps mark could do it as well
JB: support that
Mark: concerned about process, but can take a stab at it
SP/JB: circulate draft prior to submission for ffeedback
JS: is there more to discuss? are we pretty happy with it?
Mark: regarding Clear Audio, should we link to the wiki page
JS: we have discussed the status of that page in the past, but current status is unclear
JB: have been wondering about this as well. the user reqs and tech reqs in this sub-group have been referenced widely
however this is a wiki, and anyone can make changes without our knowing it - so it is not stable
the preferable thing to do is to stabilize it, but the a11yTF don't have publication authorization
without going through the full HTML WG
so there are a number of different routes to follow
+q
JS: the other parent group is PF
JB: yes was formally set up as a joint TF
PF can work on this in public
PF could possibly take this on
JS: question - would people mind if this was published by PF rather than HTML WG?
SP: not too concerned where it is published, PF could handle this, but if people want it to get through the HTML WG process as a tech report or something we could follow that prodess
believe that PF would be appropriate
+1 to have this in PF (public) space
JS: any objections then?
... will take that on then and move towards a permenant
URI
<scribe> ACTION: Janina to take the user reqs and tech reqs and get that published under PF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-126 - Take the user reqs and tech reqs and get that published under PF [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-05-18].
JB: I think there is one section that needs some minor editing, so before it becomes more formal a quick pass would be appropriate
but we could likley lock the page
SP: prefer not to lock the page
as we continue to add clariffication
while those changes are minor, they are useful
suggest that taking it to PF, and in that process to clean up the wording, etc., that would be good
JS: I have tried to search for a good clear explanation of how/what Clear Audio is, but have only found annecdotal content
perhaps we can find more clarification, as it seems incomplete in our document
SH: I can check at BBC for that
JS: thanks mark for helping us move the document forward/
+q
JS: any other questions on the topic and the wiki?
JB: are we looking to do this on both user reqs and tech reqs?
my recollection was that we got more traction with the mapping exercise
believes there is a technical list
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements <- this one?
JB: remembers a list of technical requirements as well as user requirements
SP: don't think we kept that document up to date
JB: OK, that sounds right, retract the suggestion
JF: what to do with the 3GPP issue?
Mark: questions are on the @trak kinds page
Questions from 3GPP
In [1] they ask:
whether our hope to recommend use of W3C ‘role’ names, in our specification, seems achievable and reasonable, in your opinion;
your thinking on the set of names;
your schedule for defining at least a stable initial set of names;
whether you will define a URN to identify the set you define.
JS: believes that a) yes, we can
respond, likely in a few weeks, and that PF would provide the
URN for referencing the list
... so responding here, formally on behalf of the group, likely
falls to JF and JS
SP: just to note that the request for clarification came to the HTML WG
wonder if we need to pass it through that group first
SP: came via PLH - but think it should go through HTML WG
JB: if it is a liason query, then it would likley be through staff
Judy and PLH work together on those often
Mark: notes that the request was addressed to the a11yTF group, addressed to David singer
JB: David, PLH and I will be together next week and will walk this through to the end
<mark> correction: the 3GPP contact person is David Singer
JS: any other questions with @kind?
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/99
JS: still working on this, but yes, still active
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/109
next item: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/109
on Sean
SH: I believe this is done, and can be closed
<silvia> close action 109
SP: have looked at alt technologies when video and audio are not playing
similar to no image display
so what do we do with the empty space in particular for people who cannot see the empty space
may also be a useful situation for people who may still want to know what audio and video is
ie; low bandwidth, deaf/blind, etc.
so that is the background that I have approached it from
another is, what if there are 20 videos on the page, when tabbing through we need an indication as to what these videos represent
which to a sighted user comes from the placeholder frame
but for non-sighted needs a text alternative
+q
being careful not to use the term poster
SP: so that is the background, and the wiki page is linked here
saw that this could be a problem to solve
have discussed this with other developers and blind users
also needed to understand the alt technologies available
<Sean> Sean again
as this is related to where we have gone in the past
SP: so I have identified 3 use cases
that I think needs to be catered for
but anything that is time-aligned is not pertinent here
as this has already been addressed via the track element
JS: so we have 2 tiypes of transcript, one that is time-stmped and one that is not
SP: yes
perhaps start with the @transcription proposal
a new attribute proposed has the use of linking to an off-page transcription file
use case is that we have a very long and detailed transcription, but too long to be cited on the page
this would be most useful for deaf/blind and/or low-bandwidth users
while talking with people at google, they have had this request for a long time
ie: non-timed-aligned text, currently YouTube strips time-alignment from text when they receive the request
SP: so we can either provide an "in the clear" link on the page, either visible or positioned off-page
or having the attribute
don't like the position off page solution, so would prefer to see it as a link in the video element
ack: jan
JS: agrees that a contextual menu would likely be the better solution
SP: yes, I think that this would be the most useful as well
JS: one question - if we call
this transcription, what do we call the text file with the
time-stamp
... we need to be very clear on how we name this
Mark: does it make any sense if the UA could strip the time-stamp data, could we repurpose this?
JB: the text, where-ever you pause, my be widely un-aligned with the media
we are dealing with the question of 'appropriateness' without to much analysis
Mark: the question is, can the entire timestamp text also fufill the need of the transcript - if the UA can strip the timestamping
SP: caption file only captures what is being spoken plus with a bit of sound-effects
but a transcript also captures what is happening on screen
transcript is more a combination of captions and audio description
ie: a caption file does not explain what is on screen - all you get is what the dialog is
it *could* be automatically be done by merging the caption and description file, but this sounds complex/complicated
JS: to my mind transcript is much closer to script in the classical theatrical use
it has both dialog and "stage" direction
but may not include descriptive audio text
SP: I think the author needs to determine what is appropriate
JS: I agree, what I am suggesting is that the transcript needs to be aligned to the running media
if it is not a caption file, or a descriptive audio/text file
SP: this can be done already, don't believe that this is a use-case that needs to be addressed here
JS: at the very least we need to disambiguate them
we need to give them clear names so that we can easily tell what is time aligned and what is not
mark: I believe that the question was well answered. It just seems that i would be useful if the author could write once and have the UA do the 'splitting apart'
SP: believes that this would be done on the server, not built into the browser
<mark> I didn't necessarily mean the *UA* would do the splitting
SP: YouTube calls their "timed transcript" their interactive transcript
Eric: don't think that "interactive" is appropriate, because it may not in fact be interactive
JS: any other ideas of names?
JB: would rather look at the different things on a page by definition, it might be easier to spot the differences and find a candidate name
think that these terms that these terms already may be considered "reserved" terms in certain circles
we might consider to look at what was done with figcaption, so that it helps disambiguate the term
JS: perhaps we need to set the naming aside, and perhaps move on
SP: wnated to ask Eric why he
thinks it is not interactive
... so are we in agreement that adding a new attribute is the
best way forward? perhaps poll the group?
JF: is there anyone on the call opposed to introducing a new attribute mechanism to achieve this?
SP: Eric, if we provide a time-stamped transcript on the page why would you be opposed to calling it 'interactive'
Eric: because it may be that users could not actually 'interact' with the text
if that is going to be a requirement, then we need to discuss, but don't believe that it will be one
Eric: seems to me that time is what it's all about - I don't have a problem with this, but don't think this is a key issue at this time
JS: OK so we should drop the naming question for now. will add a section to the wiki page to foster more discusssion
SP; another use-case is a short text alternative
another is one that you tap onto a video, and you want to know if you should hit the play button or not
for sighted users, this comes from looking at the image and the associated text
for a11y reasons we have to replace what is being seen on thta image to non-sighted users
so a textual alternative is required
Marco (Zehe) suggests that this needs to be short and succinct
so that when a non-sighted users tabs through the images, the text is short and succinct
looking at what might solve this problem I looked at the different options
marco suggested aria-label and they all seem to agree that it is the most useful here
JS: I think that marco is 50% correct
we need to treat the image as any other image
+q
we need both a short 'handle' as well as an ability to expose a longer description
JF: talked with Victor Tsaran at yahoo! and he disagrees that aria-label is appropriate
problem is that label is for list and interactive content
as well, with @alt if images are not supported the text renders on screen, where as aria-lable text is not shown on screen
JS: Silvia, would you like me to ask PF to focus on this further
SP: this is new, so we can do whatever we want
makes sense that we have one mechanism not 2, and believes we should be in sync with images
but not married to either option
but don't want an either/or scenario
it should be clear, and one solution
JS: believe that this would be an interesting use case discussion for WAI
we have a need to support i18n, and ARIA is the better way of doing that
JS: this is something useful to
continue to discuss. We are also looking at a very short list
of additions to ARIA
... sad to note we are out of time
SP: I would rather finish this discussion, but it seems we are out of time
JS: we will start back up with
this next week
... thi shas been a productive meeting
see you all next week
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: JF Inferring ScribeNick: JF Found Scribe: JF Inferring ScribeNick: JF Found Scribe: JF Inferring ScribeNick: JF Default Present: JF, mark, Judy, silvia, Eric, Janina, +1.890.9.aaaa, Sean, +44.844.800.aabb Present: JF mark Judy silvia Eric Janina +1.890.9.aaaa Sean +44.844.800.aabb Found Date: 11 May 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: janina WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]