19:57:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #fx
19:57:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/02-fx-irc
19:57:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
19:57:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #fx
19:57:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3983
19:57:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
19:57:36 <trackbot> Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
19:57:36 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2011
19:57:54 <ed> regrets+ smfr, chris
19:58:46 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
19:58:47 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:59:54 <Zakim> +[Apple]
19:59:58 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
19:59:58 <Zakim> +hober; got it
20:00:26 <Zakim> +??P9
20:00:34 <ed> Zakim, ??P9 is me
20:00:34 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:00:36 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
20:01:00 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011AprJun/0059.html
20:01:19 <Zakim> +??P1
20:01:28 <anthony> Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:01:28 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:03:53 <ed> Zakim, who is noisy?
20:04:04 <Zakim> ed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.206.675.aaaa (19%)
20:04:48 <ed> Zakim, +1.2 is rik
20:04:48 <Zakim> +rik; got it
20:05:24 <ed> chair: ed
20:05:34 <ed> Zakim, pick a victim?
20:05:34 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ed.
20:05:46 <shepazu> Zakim, pick a victim
20:05:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose hober
20:06:06 <hober> ScribeNick: hober
20:06:34 <hober> Topic: Filter Effects 1.0
20:08:16 <hober> shepazu: if someone defines a filter effect, but it doesn't exist or isn't supported, what should happen?
20:08:47 <ed> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html#FilterFunction
20:09:32 <hober> cabanier: if they don't exist they should be ignored
20:10:09 <hober> ed: we apply the null filter in this case
20:10:32 <hober> ed: which makes elements transparent
20:11:04 <hober> ed: firefox, opera, webkit all make the element invisible
20:11:38 <hober> shepazu: this is very unintuitive
20:11:52 <hober> shepazu: will follow up in email
20:12:14 <hober> ed: it would be nice if the element remained visible
20:12:21 <hober> shepazu: what if you have a set of filters
20:12:36 <hober> shepazu: you support a b and c, and don't support d
20:12:57 <hober> shepazu: in a filter chain a b d c, what is the input into filter c
20:13:15 <hober> shepazu: expects d to simply pass through the ouptput of b to c
20:13:58 <hober> ed: in the svg case, you can have sub-parts that aren't supported; what should happen in such cases is hard
20:14:06 <hober> ed: pass-through sounds fine to me
20:14:18 <hober> shepazu: also need to address this to clip paths
20:14:28 <hober> shepazu: if there's nothing to apply, nothing should happen
20:15:24 <ed> feImage in firefox might be an example, supports raster images but not referencing other svg elements IIRC
20:15:56 <hober> shepazu: does anyone have rationale to this behavior besides it's already how implementations behave?
20:16:31 <hober> shepazu: I tried to apply some filter effects to a video
20:16:47 <hober> shepazu: regardless of if it applies the effect I still want the video to be visible
20:17:09 <hober> shepazu: we should nip this in the bud now
20:17:22 <hober> shepazu: people won't use filters because of the very negative effect
20:18:02 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:18:05 <hober> Topic: 'enable-background' deprecation
20:18:30 <pdengler> pdengler has joined #fx
20:18:53 <ed> Zakim, who's here?
20:18:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shepazu, [Apple], ed, rik, anthony, [Microsoft]
20:18:54 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
20:18:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see pdengler, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, anthony, dbaron, anthony_work, ed, shepazu, CSSWG_LogBot, plinss, TabAtkins, hober, trackbot, heycam
20:19:27 <hober> cabanier: having access to the background is more about blending, should go in possible future blending spec
20:19:41 <TabAtkins> ...dammit, I meant to be in the call.  One sec.
20:20:01 <hober> cabanier: if we allow enable-background in filters, we then have more than one way of expressing the same thing
20:20:42 <hober> ed: describes example of wanting to blur a background while applying a fitler; background may be unusually large
20:21:32 <hober> shepazu: filter within a filter with enable-background gets complicated really quickly
20:21:44 <hober> shepazu: we need to keep the filter spec simple
20:22:17 <hober> ed: we still have to deal with backwards compat; there are some impls that do some of this
20:22:31 <hober> ed: but there isn't much content on the open web that contains this
20:22:55 <hober> ??: which implementations support this?
20:22:56 <hober> ed: batik, opera, both support some of it
20:23:04 <hober> ed: adobe plugin had support for it
20:23:15 <hober> shepazu: would you deprecate it in opera?
20:23:24 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #fx
20:23:32 <hober> ed: enable-background is still used in the compositing spec
20:23:49 <hober> s/shepazu/pdengler/
20:24:08 <shepazu> s/??:/pdengler:/
20:25:54 <hober> shepazu: are you doing filters in IE? what happens now in IE9?
20:26:20 <hober> pdengler: IE9 ignores it
20:26:26 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
20:26:33 <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aabb is TabAtkins
20:26:33 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
20:27:46 <hober> [questions about svg v. css compositing spec work]
20:28:02 <hober> TabAtkins: is identical to what's being specced in svg
20:29:17 <hober> ??: we're not changing svg filter spec
20:29:33 <hober> shepazu: svg filter spec is becoming *a* filter spec
20:30:11 <hober> ??: the importance is that we have a consistent model now, so that 2 or 5 years from now authors have consistent experience
20:30:37 <hober> ed: there are some tests, but not many
20:31:11 <hober> shepazu: if someone were to support enable-background when blending, would they break the future?
20:31:42 <hober> ed: blending in terms of compositing or svg filters?
20:32:15 <shepazu> s/shepazu/pdengler/
20:32:22 <shepazu> s/??:/pdengler:/
20:32:25 <shepazu> s/??:/pdengler:/
20:33:36 <hober> ed: don't know if you can get the same behavior between enable-background in compositing v. svg filters
20:33:45 <hober> pdengler: there wouldn't be a collision
20:34:54 <hober> ??: in a css compositing spec, should enable-background even be there
20:35:21 <hober> ??: if you have an animation, it's hard to implement that performantly
20:35:42 <hober> s/??:/cabanier:/
20:35:46 <hober> s/??:/cabanier:/
20:36:20 <hober> ed: can we refer to the compositing spec for the definition of enable-background?
20:36:42 <hober> ed: background-image and background-alpha are the only things using enable-background property
20:37:46 <hober> ed: removing, we'd have to do something for existing content, not sure what
20:38:36 <hober> ACTION: ed to create test cases for background-image and background-alpha to see what current implementations do
20:38:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Create test cases for background-image and background-alpha to see what current implementations do [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-05-09].
20:39:08 <hober> Topic: transform atribute vs. property
20:39:12 <hober> ed: cameron isn't here
20:39:33 <hober> Topic: CSS/SVG Animation, FX 2d Transforms updates
20:40:26 <hober> anthony: next week i plan to make the fx 2d transforms updates
20:41:57 <hober> pdengler: question about integrating transform attribute v. property
20:42:05 <hober> shepazu: we've gone back and forth on that
20:42:36 <hober> shepazu: from an authoring point of view, keeping them separate is desirable
20:43:23 <hober> ed: cameron was objecting to it
20:43:45 <hober> ed: haven't seen a proposal that addresses all of the issues with making it a property; the dom issues, etc.
20:44:28 <hober> ed: will make it harder to promote other attributes to properties for animating with css animations
20:44:40 <ed> s/will/might/
20:45:20 <hober> ed: we should see if there are more detailed comments from cameron on that
20:45:33 <hober> ed: we would have to change the fx transforms spec to reflect that
20:46:35 <hober> ed: any updates on the animation work in the css group?
20:46:57 <hober> TabAtkins: nothing's changed
20:47:07 <hober> TabAtkins: dean's been working on a better js api for animations
20:47:27 <hober> ed: that's not been checked in anywhere
20:47:50 <hober> TabAtkins: dean will move that along once he's fleshed out his experimental impl
20:48:07 <hober> pdengler: will there be an fx meeting in kyoto?
20:48:50 <hober> [discussion of when the overlap day will be in kyoto]
20:48:57 <hober> ed: we should know svg meeting dates by thursday
20:49:58 <hober> ed: the intention is to cover fx material in overlap mtg; not sure how many people doing the fx work will be there
20:50:47 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:50:49 <Zakim> -rik
20:50:50 <Zakim> -ed
20:50:51 <Zakim> -anthony
20:50:52 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:50:57 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
20:51:14 <Zakim> -[Apple]
20:51:16 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
20:51:18 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, hober, ed, +1.206.675.aaaa, anthony, rik, [Microsoft], +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins
20:52:01 <hober> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:52:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/02-fx-minutes.html hober
21:59:01 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #fx