IRC log of media on 2011-04-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:30:46 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #media
21:30:46 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/20-media-irc
21:31:47 [judy]: zakim, this will be WAI_PF(media)
21:31:48 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, judy
21:32:05 [frankolivier]: frankolivier has joined #media
21:32:31 [judy]: zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(a11y)
21:32:31 [Zakim]: ok, judy, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM already started
21:32:36 [judy]: chair: John
21:32:39 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
21:32:41 [judy]: zakim, who's here?
21:32:41 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, Judy, Sean, [Microsoft]
21:32:42 [Zakim]: On IRC I see frankolivier, RRSAgent, Zakim, judy, Sean, JF, silvia
21:32:48 [frankolivier]: Zakim, Microsoft is Frank
21:32:48 [Zakim]: +Frank; got it
21:33:12 [judy]: Zakim, +1.650 is John_Foliot
21:33:12 [Zakim]: +John_Foliot; got it
21:33:36 [Zakim]: +Eric_Carlson
21:34:21 [Zakim]: +silvia
21:34:51 [judy]: agenda+Identify Scribe
21:34:51 [judy]: agenda+Issue-152 Multitrack http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Change_Proposals_Summary
21:34:51 [judy]: agenda+Text Formats Change Proposal
21:34:51 [judy]: agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:34:51 [judy]: agenda+Other Business?
21:34:52 [judy]: agenda+ be done
21:35:05 [silvia]: zakim, who is here?
21:35:05 [Zakim]: On the phone I see John_Foliot, Judy, Sean, Frank, Eric_Carlson, silvia
21:35:07 [Zakim]: On IRC I see frankolivier, RRSAgent, Zakim, judy, Sean, JF, silvia
21:35:11 [Zakim]: +??P6
21:35:49 [silvia]: zakim, ??P6 is Bob
21:35:49 [Zakim]: +Bob; got it
21:35:54 [mark]: mark has joined #media
21:36:35 [Zakim]: + +1.408.540.aabb
21:36:58 [mark]: zakim, aabb is mark
21:36:58 [Zakim]: +mark; got it
21:37:00 [Bob_Lund]: Bob_Lund has joined #media
21:37:00 [judy]: zakim, take up item 1
21:37:00 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from judy]
21:37:21 [judy]: Sean will scribe, Judy will fill in when Sean is commenting
21:37:25 [Sean]: scribe: Sean
21:37:31 [judy]: zakim, close item 1
21:37:31 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
21:37:32 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:37:33 [Zakim]: 2. Issue-152 Multitrack http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Change_Proposals_Summary [from judy]
21:37:44 [judy]: zakim, take up item 2
21:37:44 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Issue-152 Multitrack http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Change_Proposals_Summary" taken up [from judy]
21:38:28 [Sean]: Silvia and JF catching up on email
21:38:36 [Sean]: Ian has introduced some changes
21:38:51 [Sean]: yes please
21:39:07 [frankolivier]: q+
21:39:23 [Sean]: Judy recommends that we maintain formal and informal communication
21:39:54 [Sean]: Judy: Good to record out discussion
21:40:39 [Sean]: Frank: On track to have a single coherent proposal, would like our CP to be against whats in the spec, rather than a CP against a CP
21:40:57 [Sean]: to consolidate into one single change
21:41:27 [Sean]: JF: if there is still difference between this group and Ian, how do we capture that
21:41:59 [Sean]: we should not let anything slip
21:42:22 [Sean]: Mark: arent we required to produce a CP against the current W3C spec
21:42:42 [silvia]: +q
21:42:56 [Sean]: Judy, yes; typically what we do against a rolling editors vresion is comment wrt to a time stamped version
21:43:26 [Sean]: Silvia. the Wiki page is a formal record to some extent
21:43:38 [judy]: q+
21:43:40 [Sean]: have removed things as Ian has added them
21:44:03 [Sean]: Ian's CP is in the WHATWG spec
21:44:08 [Sean]: ours is in the Wiki
21:44:32 [Sean]: the changes are not uncontrolled
21:44:38 [Sean]: SJudy: That can be tricky
21:44:57 [Sean]: multiple moving targets dont give the record trail
21:45:09 [Sean]: unless you dive into the histories of the individual pages
21:45:25 [Sean]: email also gives some trail
21:45:44 [Sean]: we need to send things that are static
21:45:49 [silvia]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Change_Proposals_Summary#Proposal_4:_Controller_proposal
21:45:53 [Sean]: Silivia : working to that
21:45:57 [Sean]: see urL
21:46:17 [Sean]: ask to work through the 'silvia's notes section
21:46:34 [Sean]: this is the proposal we are going to submit
21:46:44 [Sean]: work through the 7 points
21:46:50 [Sean]: and Silvia can prepare the email
21:46:58 [Sean]: for dicussion
21:47:10 [Sean]: all: general agreement
21:47:13 [Sean]: point 1.
21:47:27 [Sean]: make track more like text track, now recorded as a bug
21:47:44 [Sean]: Silvia - tracklist has a set of getXX functions
21:47:54 [Sean]: these are different to how text track is defined
21:48:01 [Sean]: where they are attributes
21:48:27 [Sean]: Philip suggest making a list of object with attributes for consistency
21:48:43 [Sean]: we dont need to record this as its a separate bug
21:49:02 [Sean]: JF: Q: What are the pros and cons
21:49:15 [Sean]: if it goes after LC
21:49:42 [Sean]: Eric. the issue is that philip has already filed a bug, and its just a change to the interface
21:49:51 [Sean]: we dont need to restate it
21:49:58 [silvia]: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12530
21:50:14 [Sean]: move on and leave point 1
21:50:48 [Sean]: Item 2.
21:50:59 [Sean]: it should include id, label and kind
21:51:13 [Sean]: JF: Ian was unclear about kind
21:51:19 [Sean]: what are we discussing?
21:51:28 [Sean]: Silvia its about adding ID and kind
21:51:53 [Sean]: to get a unique identifier to create a fragment url
21:53:05 [Sean]: Sean: should also have a getFragmentIRL function
21:53:17 [Sean]: Siliva: agree, but ID is still needed
21:53:30 [Sean]: Sean: have both
21:53:51 [Sean]: Eric: prefer to not have the function
21:54:14 [Sean]: problem is that there are files for which the URL for the track is not the same as the parent movie
21:54:23 [Sean]: which is another file on the server
21:55:36 [Sean]: asking a track for a URL, if its a reference to a different file; this needs to be resolved
21:55:57 [Sean]: it is also a problem that the fragment spec is not final
21:56:24 [Sean]: it seems to be something that could be done in a JS library/
21:56:48 [Sean]: Silvia can find outr which tracks exist
21:57:04 [Sean]: composing the fragment url to combine in one URL
21:57:49 [Sean]: Sean: do we need additional information?
21:57:59 [Sean]: Eric: Asking a track for a reference to itself
21:59:02 [Sean]: refering to the track from the outside is unambiguous
21:59:12 [Sean]: from the inside there is a possibility of confusion
21:59:38 [Sean]: defintion of the attribute needs to say what it refers to
21:59:54 [Sean]: Silvia getID we definitley want
22:00:05 [Sean]: get URL may be a convenience
22:00:20 [Sean]: we dont need to agree on it now to resolve 152
22:03:00 [Sean]: we need to look at the current src to see if its adequate prefix to a #id
22:03:04 [JF]: +1 to @kind
22:03:20 [Sean]: Silvia: kind is required to discover what the content is intended for
22:03:32 [frankolivier]: +1 to @kind
22:03:44 [Sean]: all: agree kind is necessary
22:04:12 [Sean]: Eric: one problem is how we define the media information to a kind
22:04:27 [Sean]: doesnt exist in in MP4 and Quicktime
22:04:36 [Sean]: we are working on a proposal
22:04:46 [Sean]: but hasnt been defined yet
22:04:57 [Sean]: secondly, no authoring tools to let you add it
22:05:10 [Sean]: maybe some command line tools
22:05:26 [Sean]: so it will be a while before this data shows up in files
22:05:41 [Sean]: but agree its important, but will be difficult for a while
22:05:56 [Sean]: Silvia: need it in the spec for interoperability
22:06:17 [Sean]: JF: if the additional data is in the wrapper, how is it exposed to the player
22:07:40 [Sean]: SIlvia : is the data- attribute appropriate?
22:08:08 [Sean]: eric: we need a mechanism to express a kind of an inband track
22:08:19 [Sean]: this is not on the markup
22:08:29 [Sean]: its in the media
22:09:18 [Sean]: Eric we have a bit of chicken and egg problem, but it will get solved
22:09:56 [Sean]: Silivia: there are slots in media files, but we need time to establish usage
22:10:23 [Zakim]: -silvia
22:10:26 [Sean]: Eric: there are fields in Quicktime files, but not standard values
22:11:02 [Sean]: mark: in mpeg-DASH they have been looking at this, and will add the necessary annotations
22:11:02 [Zakim]: +silvia
22:11:32 [Sean]: JF: so we do need @kind
22:11:43 [Sean]: did we not have other kinds
22:11:49 [Sean]: Silvia: thise were for text
22:11:54 [Sean]: this is AV
22:12:06 [Sean]: we need to think about other kinds
22:12:43 [Sean]: sean: clear audio sould be a kind
22:13:06 [Sean]: speech only
22:13:55 [Sean]: JF: lang, ISO language codes, there doesnt seem to be consistency
22:14:08 [Sean]: do we need to specify language codes for sign
22:14:24 [Sean]: Silvia: yes the latest ones are fairly complete for sign
22:14:37 [Sean]: so not a problem
22:15:06 [Sean]: Mark: are there others like no repetetive stimulis
22:15:11 [Sean]: non-strobe
22:15:33 [Sean]: Eric: that's not really a kind, but a characteristic of the asset
22:16:00 [Sean]: so slightly orthogonal issues
22:16:20 [Sean]: JF: +1
22:16:35 [Sean]: these issues need to be considered, but its not an @kind value
22:16:50 [Sean]: Eric: D Singer and I have never gotten any traction on it
22:17:04 [Sean]: we cant do it in the next 48 hrs
22:17:26 [Sean]: JF: do we have a final list
22:17:53 [Sean]: Sean: should this be an open ended list
22:17:59 [Sean]: Silvia: yes
22:18:04 [Sean]: JF: agree
22:18:25 [Sean]: Judy: can you restate the issue
22:19:13 [Sean]: eric: there is a need for content authors to decalre tha accessiility reqs that content meets, but also markup content to let the UA pick the content the user does not want
22:19:44 [Sean]: do the UAAG WG have anything relevant
22:20:53 [Sean]: Eric: the issue is that the content author needs to be able to describe the content
22:21:47 [Sean]: Mark: MPEG-DASH is defining these roles, and sent a liaason on this question and multiple roles can be assigned
22:22:01 [Sean]: Judy: can I be put on that htread
22:22:17 [Sean]: Mark: the liason should come formally soon
22:22:29 [Sean]: it was addressed to this group
22:23:16 [Sean]: Silvia: I think there are some open issues, but we can maybe pursue them separately
22:23:21 [Sean]: maybe as a media query
22:24:05 [Sean]: Judy: the restatement was helpful
22:24:21 [Sean]: can you send the materials
22:25:07 [Sean]: Silvia: added clear audio
22:25:17 [Sean]: JF: done with kind
22:25:23 [Sean]: next item, loop
22:25:43 [Sean]: Silvia: loop is currently disabled for a combined set of elements
22:26:01 [Sean]: we have discussed how it should work
22:26:17 [Sean]: maybe we can leave it for now and discuss with ian
22:26:29 [Sean]: do we actually want loop to be solved
22:26:50 [Sean]: JF: straw poll of opinion
22:27:01 [Sean]: Eric: we should hhave it
22:27:19 [Sean]: Frank : agree
22:27:26 [Sean]: Sean: no reason not to
22:27:37 [Sean]: mark, Judy: no opinio
22:27:44 [Sean]: consensus we should have it
22:28:01 [Sean]: net item : autoplay
22:28:37 [Sean]: Judy can we be clear on the question
22:28:58 [Sean]: eric: should we ever allow autoplay for a group of media resources
22:30:14 [Sean]: silvia: we have it in the requirements
22:30:31 [Sean]: its done by single and inband multi track
22:30:39 [Sean]: but not by slaved elements
22:30:50 [Sean]: do we want it
22:31:10 [Sean]: Judy: current wording?
22:31:17 [Zakim]: +Eric_Carlson.a
22:31:19 [Zakim]: -Eric_Carlson
22:33:05 [Sean]: JF: is selective switching possible?
22:33:36 [Zakim]: -Frank
22:33:40 [silvia]: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#media-controllers - you need to scroll down to where "autoplay" is mentioned
22:33:49 [Sean]: Judy: its a distraction issue, and its not always easy to figure out how to switch it off
22:34:08 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
22:34:25 [frankolivier]: Zakim, Microsoft is Frank
22:34:25 [Zakim]: +Frank; got it
22:34:29 [judy]: zakim, [Microsoft] is Frank
22:34:29 [Zakim]: sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
22:34:40 [judy]: zakim, Microsoft is Frank
22:34:40 [Zakim]: sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
22:34:40 [Sean]: Eric: a non issue as it would be foolish to have separate ungrouped elements with media that should be synchronised
22:35:07 [Sean]: you always want them to play in sync
22:35:18 [Sean]: its just a question of enablement
22:39:11 [Sean]: JF: need to move on
22:39:19 [Sean]: do we have a solution today?
22:39:24 [Sean]: Eric: no
22:39:47 [Sean]: its about user agent preferences
22:41:28 [silvia]: A http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#mediacontroller">http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#mediacontroller">http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#mediacontroller is a blocked media controller if the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#mediacontroller is a http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#paused-media-controller, or if any of its http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#slaved-media-elements arehttp://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/c
22:42:09 [Sean]: Judy: need to defer this and go to the other issues
22:42:26 [Sean]: item: some attributes are missing in the controller
22:43:07 [Sean]: Silvia. we had request to add some events, but these relate to the readyState, so we need to decide whether we need a combined readystate
22:43:19 [Sean]: it seems readystate is inconsistent
22:43:39 [Sean]: so perhaps we dont really need it,
22:43:55 [Sean]: but we can wait till the result of the bug
22:44:16 [Sean]: Eric: i think its useful
22:44:38 [Sean]: on the media controller, its not possible to find out the combined state otherwise
22:44:58 [Sean]: Frank: agree with Eric, but need more discussion
22:45:08 [Sean]: JF: does it go in the CP?
22:45:58 [Sean]: Frank : could it go in as a bug outside the CP
22:46:10 [Sean]: JF: not sure,
22:46:22 [Sean]: easier to delete it later
22:47:47 [Sean]: general consensus: should go on the controller
22:49:07 [Sean]: Silvia: will add to the CP
22:49:11 [Sean]: item 7
22:49:22 [Sean]: backup
22:49:25 [Sean]: ended state
22:50:05 [Sean]: Silvia:: the onended event is not included, as Ian not clear what it means
22:50:24 [Sean]: think it is necessary
22:50:37 [Sean]: Eric: ended is required
22:51:18 [Sean]: Bob: agree, Mark: no opinion
22:51:34 [Sean]: consensus : keep it in
22:51:49 [Sean]: item 7
22:52:02 [Sean]: how to create controls for the combined grou
22:52:29 [Sean]: Silvia: how are the automatic controls created for a combined resource
22:52:51 [Sean]: Ian seems to thin its possible on each video element, and they will control the controller
22:53:05 [Sean]: this seems like an OK solution
22:53:32 [Sean]: its probably not possible to create one over multiple elements
22:53:55 [Sean]: Eric: my interpretation is that if show for any element, it works for all the elements
22:54:35 [Sean]: from a display point of view they will cover only one video element
22:54:42 [Sean]: JF: so this is a solved problem
22:55:03 [Sean]: return to autoplay
22:55:16 [Sean]: Judy: can we restate the question
22:55:43 [Sean]: silvia: should the controller have an autoplay idl attribute representing all the slaves
22:55:55 [Sean]: Judy: I think so
22:58:35 [judy]: Sean: concerned that we are not clear about the semantics of the idl attribute
22:58:52 [judy]: ...will is be controlling all of the elements, or only the first?
22:59:16 [judy]: [others had stated that they support idl, or that they likely do]
22:59:41 [judy]: s/...will is be/...will it be/
23:01:27 [Zakim]: -Frank
23:01:34 [frankolivier]: (Need to drop for another meeting)
23:02:59 [Zakim]: -Eric_Carlson.a
23:04:09 [judy]: [discussion about (un)clarity in semantics of autoplay, and how that relates to the question on which we are trying to agree on a position ]
23:05:35 [judy]: bob: the behavior on autoplay should be the same as it would be if the media player were invoked manually
23:06:12 [judy]: several: need communication with ian
23:06:19 [judy]: silvia: writing him a letter
23:06:30 [judy]: john: we seem to agree on what's needed
23:07:00 [judy]: ...and we've gone through all 7 of silvia's bullet points
23:07:28 [judy]: silvia: yup, have my notes, will draft letter, circulate it within the next hour
23:08:48 [judy]: john: let's agree to state that as a consensus of the accessibility sub-group
23:09:19 [judy]: ...let's give people 24 hours to agree on that
23:10:47 [judy]: ...any tweaks needed, ask silvia to help with
23:10:57 [judy]: ...for all, please send a +1 back to the list
23:11:10 [judy]: ...thank you everyone so much, good process, good effort
23:11:32 [Zakim]: -Bob
23:11:36 [judy]: judy: thanks all
23:11:38 [Zakim]: -John_Foliot
23:11:40 [Zakim]: -mark
23:11:42 [Zakim]: -silvia
23:11:46 [Zakim]: -Judy
23:11:50 [Zakim]: -Sean
23:11:51 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has ended
23:11:53 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, Judy, Sean, Frank, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, silvia, Bob, +1.408.540.aabb, mark
23:12:07 [JF]: rrsagent, make minutes
23:12:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/20-media-minutes.html JF
23:12:15 [JF]: zakim, bye
23:12:15 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #media
23:12:31 [JF]: rrsagent, make minutes
23:12:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/20-media-minutes.html JF
23:19:11 [oedipus]: oedipus has joined #media
23:20:05 [JF]: hi friend
23:20:25 [JF]: so the only thing i have not done is tell rrsagent to p art
23:20:36 [JF]: scared to do so
23:22:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/20-media-minutes.html oedipus
23:22:34 [oedipus]: present- +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.408.540.aabb
23:22:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/20-media-minutes.html oedipus
23:23:11 [oedipus]: meeting: Media Subteam 20 April 2011
23:23:13 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/20-media-minutes.html oedipus
23:32:07 [JF]: rssagent, part
23:33:17 [JF]: rrsagent, please part
23:33:17 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items