IRC log of webperf on 2011-04-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:03:40 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc

20:03:42 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

20:03:42 [Zakim]

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20:03:44 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WPWG

20:03:44 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot, I see RWC_web-per(WPWG)4:00PM already started

20:03:45 [trackbot]

Meeting: Web Performance Working Group Teleconference

20:03:45 [trackbot]

Date: 13 April 2011

20:04:06 [Zakim]

+ +1.650.214.aaaa

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20:04:15 [Christian]

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20:04:44 [Karen_]

rrsagent, set logs world-visible

20:05:01 [Karen_]

Meeting: Web Perf Teleconference 4/13/2011

20:05:10 [Karen_]

scribe: Karen Anderson

20:05:17 [Karen_]

ScribeNick:Karen

20:05:28 [Karen_]

rrsagent, pointer?

20:05:28 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc#T20-05-28

20:06:16 [Karen_]

present: Karen, Nic, Zhiheng, Christian

20:06:32 [Karen_]

regrets:Jatinder

20:06:36 [Christian]

also arvind is here

20:06:58 [Karen_]

agenda:this

20:07:09 [Karen_]

agenda+NavTiming test updates

20:07:27 [Karen_]

agenda+navigationStart in x-origin navs

20:07:40 [Karen_]

agenda+NT wall-clock time

20:07:52 [Karen_]

agenda+feedback on 4/5 updates to RT

20:07:59 [Karen_]

agenda+UT proposal

20:08:06 [Karen_]

agenda+others

20:08:27 [plh]

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20:09:15 [plh]

hi folks, I'm off site this afternoon and can't be on the phone for this hour

20:09:37 [plh]

sorry about that

20:10:13 [Karen_]

move to agenda 1

20:10:47 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: there might be other navigation scenarios that we should cover with testing

20:11:02 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: Some of these tests might be corner, but we should think about them more

20:11:14 [Karen_]

Nic: some to think about would be around persistent connections

20:11:45 [Karen_]

Nic: we do still need to add a check to the server redirect test to verify the origin server

20:12:07 [Karen_]

Tony: Caching is not enforced on all UAs so this might be difficult

20:12:34 [Karen_]

Tony: we might be able to fake this by adding pauses to the networking phases, or adding time in the load event

20:13:12 [Karen_]

Nic: That sounds like a good idea. This is also similar to the test around the previous unload if there wasn't one

20:13:41 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: We need to have tests for all of the MUST criteria of the spec.

20:14:37 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: Would should have a log of tests that we don't have so there is a record of what might be missing, or we need to make those sections non-normative

20:14:54 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: it's preferable to have the tests instead of changing the spec requirements

20:15:06 [Karen_]

Nic: We agree

20:15:27 [Karen_]

Tony: We should ask Philippe about this

20:16:22 [Karen_]

Tony: Looks like we are missing previous document tests and page reload

20:16:55 [Karen_]

ACTION: Zhiheng to investigate tests around persistent connections

20:16:56 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-19 - Investigate tests around persistent connections [on Zhiheng Wang - due 2011-04-20].

20:17:15 [Karen_]

ACTION: Tony to investigate tests around no previous document scenarios

20:17:15 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-20 - Investigate tests around no previous document scenarios [on Tony Gentilcore - due 2011-04-20].

20:17:43 [Karen_]

ACTION: Karen to update the page reload test to update the timings

20:17:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-21 - Update the page reload test to update the timings [on Karen Anderson - due 2011-04-20].

20:18:51 [Karen_]

Nic: Should we wait to add the navigationStart verification until after we settle that?

20:19:18 [Karen_]

Nic: We haven't been able to get a full security review around the navigationStart issue as people have been OOF at Mix

20:19:27 [Karen_]

move to agenda 2

20:20:25 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: I don't think we would be adding additional sec or IP data by allowing NavStart

20:20:36 [Karen_]

Nic: Does your sec team have no or little concern?

20:21:24 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: 2 things, this can already be done; having the timing here doesn't make any attacks any easier

20:22:04 [Karen_]

Christian: by not exposing this info then we can't actually measure the most basic nav scenario

20:22:18 [Christian]

that was arvind

20:24:19 [Karen_]

Arvind: Let's wait until MS can have the review and we can discuss more then

20:24:28 [Karen_]

Nic: we should be able to do this before next week

20:24:38 [Karen_]

move to agenda 3

20:25:58 [Karen_]

Nic: it was brought up the issue that if the user changes the system clock then the subsequent timings are not in relation to the nav start time

20:26:34 [Karen_]

Tony: We should have timings that play well with Date objects

20:27:14 [Karen_]

Nic: IE implements the timing so that it is all relevant

20:27:47 [Karen_]

Tony: the spec does have the recommendation to use UTC to support this

20:28:06 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: what is the time skew?

20:29:58 [Karen_]

Nic: the resolution of the Date object is not consistent which is one reason why there could be a skew

20:30:32 [Karen_]

Nic: it could be beneficial to have a note in the spec to outline this difference as a warning to web devs

20:31:08 [Karen_]

James: should we make it more explicit that the timings have different starting points

20:31:23 [Karen_]

Nic: no complaints here

20:33:57 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: don't think it's an issue with the spec currently and there isn't a strong dependency on the date object

20:35:02 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: we shouldn't change the spec, but instead make a recommendation on the correct implementation

20:36:01 [Karen_]

ACTION: Zhiheng to update the spec to include details on how the Nav Start should be implmented and how web devs should measure deltas

20:36:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-22 - Update the spec to include details on how the Nav Start should be implmented and how web devs should measure deltas [on Zhiheng Wang - due 2011-04-20].

20:36:29 [Karen_]

move to agenda 4

20:36:29 [tonyg]

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20:37:08 [Karen_]

Nic: there were a few spec updates

20:37:37 [Karen_]

Tony: waiting to hear more about the unified proposal first before feedback on the 4/5 updates

20:37:42 [Karen_]

move to agenda 5

20:38:20 [Karen_]

Tony: the motivation is too simplify the timings so that additions could be added at any time and not just these, to make this more future proof

20:38:37 [Karen_]

Tony: this also makes it so that it is not on by default

20:39:19 [Karen_]

Tony: different types of logs, app log and resource log. user is overloaded...anyway, start recording resource timings in that log, everything that hits the network goes into this log

20:41:06 [Karen_]

Tony: you can stop or clear the log at any time. There are methods to get the data out of the log. It's similar to how it's speced now, but they've realized that there isn't really movement that they can land right now. So looking for something to tie it all together with the DOM, etc

20:41:47 [Karen_]

Nic: It does reduce the functionality (good or bad) such as the initiator type, ids, or measures. But maybe this is good or bad...need to think it over

20:42:34 [Karen_]

Nic: we do want to have something that is future proof. it might make it hard to extend in the future such as widgets for example and if you only wanted to blue widgets

20:43:13 [Karen_]

Nic: it does give a more simplified view, but what if we had the current design and then the unified proposal is moved more to a script library

20:43:51 [Karen_]

Tony: Does this mean that we don't need multiple ways to access the data? Explain what you mean by different view of things.

20:44:46 [Karen_]

Nic: Assume we implement as speced today, the unified proposal could utilize the underlying data and then simplify the view, meaning a facade over what is really being stored

20:45:50 [Karen_]

Tony: I think that's true, but let me think about it more. Part of it is picking how the API should look and what should that view expose. We are shooting to capture the same underlying data

20:46:54 [Karen_]

Tony: the one contentious thing is whether to tie into the DOM. It could be a layered implementation and maybe it should. The question is how would this ultimately look.

20:48:59 [Karen_]

Tony: It seems that MS is worried that the unification is limiting to future exposure. The design should be something that will scale and I would be interested in a use-case to help support that.

20:50:29 [Karen_]

Nic: Pretend that we didn't implement NT, could that have fit into this? Some of it wouldn't like the redirect count and type. There could be others.

20:51:33 [Karen_]

we all agree that we want a design that will fit what we are working on today and what could come down the road.

20:52:03 [Karen_]

Tony: are UT and RT at a point that MS feels that we could land right now. We don't feel that way currently.

20:53:02 [Karen_]

Nic: No, we aren't at 99%, if you asked us a month back...no we weren't ready to implement. But now, we think we are making good progress and we aren't quite ready to implement yet due to ongoing updates and open issues, but maybe 70% confidence

20:53:52 [Karen_]

Nic: there isn't anything blocking us from implementation currently, but we would like to know what would block others from starting to implement now

20:54:19 [Karen_]

Nic: Over the last month we have been making good progress, do you agree?

20:55:31 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: I like the unifcation proposal, concern over RT is what we are going to expose. We don't have a good solution yet for xorigin, but agree that we are making good progress so far.

20:56:38 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: it is not the top priority to have the unification proposal nailed and instead figure out the details on the inclusion list. We should still think about the unification, but prioritze accordingly.

20:57:00 [Karen_]

Nic: agreed, we want to think about it, but not lose momentum on the RT details

20:57:59 [Karen_]

Tony: let's all look over the proposal and give feedback next week. The problem is tricky and hopefully it will trigger some other ideas from everyone to get to a great solution

20:58:58 [Karen_]

Nic: We still need to wait for Jatinder to be back to discuss deeper, but it's a great conversation piece for identifying holes in our current design

21:00:17 [Karen_]

Zhiheng: The spec should stay in Candidate Recommendation for now given the open issues.

21:00:50 [Karen_]

We didn't get to agenda 6 around UT.

21:00:54 [Zakim]

- +1.650.214.aaaa

21:00:59 [Zakim]

-??P4

21:01:00 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

21:01:00 [Zakim]

RWC_web-per(WPWG)4:00PM has ended

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Attendees were [Microsoft], +1.650.214.aaaa

21:01:50 [Karen_]

rrsagent, create minutes

21:01:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-minutes.html Karen_

21:02:04 [Karen_]

rrsagent, set logs world-visible

21:02:15 [Karen_]

rragent, make log public

21:02:30 [Karen_]

rragent, draft minutes

21:02:45 [Karen_]

rrsagent, make log public

21:02:50 [Karen_]

rrsagent, draft minutes

21:02:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-minutes.html Karen_

21:03:18 [Karen_]

rrsagent, bye

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-actions.rdf :

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Zhiheng to investigate tests around persistent connections [1]

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc#T20-16-55

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tony to investigate tests around no previous document scenarios [2]

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc#T20-17-15

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Karen to update the page reload test to update the timings [3]

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc#T20-17-43

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Zhiheng to update the spec to include details on how the Nav Start should be implmented and how web devs should measure deltas [4]

21:03:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc#T20-36-01

21:03:24 [Karen_]

zakim, bye

21:03:24 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #webperf

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-webperf-irc

21:07:37 [Karen_]

present+Tony,James

21:07:48 [Karen_]

Zakim,present?

21:07:48 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, Karen_.

21:07:53 [Karen_]

Zakim, present?

21:07:53 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, Karen_.

21:07:57 [Karen_]

present?

21:08:19 [Karen_]

rrsagent, present/

21:08:19 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'present/', Karen_. Try /msg RRSAgent help

21:08:28 [Karen_]

rrsagent, present?

21:08:28 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'present'

21:11:04 [Karen_]

Zakim, list attendees

21:11:04 [Zakim]

sorry, Karen_, I don't know what conference this is

21:11:31 [Karen_]

list attendees

23:19:43 [mdelaney]

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