See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 07 April 2011
<inserted> scribenick: Stevef
MS: not too much agenda one is talk about 1st public working draft for API ammping doc
JS: wants to talk about @summary
JB: maybe talk about @poster decision
<oedipus> plus 1 to poster
MS: any other suggestions?
... hearing none
video poster issue 142
<oedipus> HTML Working Group Decision on ISSUE-32 table-summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html
MS: lets not cover hgroup
today
... put mit on agendum for now and will be on for next week
MS: canvas subteam, only a few people on the call right?
RS: only a few on the call,
usuallu only a few
... waiting on chairs decision on issue 133, thinks we are in
good shpe, depends on chahirs, other issue how do we get
bounding rectangles on objects so that magnifiers can
identify
<oedipus> clickable regions on use of clickableregions to feed bounding examples: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0090.html
RS: not retained graphics in canvas, required for solid hit testing vehicle to drive AT support
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-131-objection-poll/results
RS: example shows that to get around this developers use multiple canvas objects ugly
<oedipus> minutes of canvas call 2011-04-04 http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-html-a11y-minutes.html
RS: svg is having drawing path, canvas needs one to, have sent ian use cases, waiting to hear back, once we have hittesting will be able to drive accessibility
MS: canvas is not retained mode by design, feature not shortcoming
<oedipus> ever heard of unforseen consequences
MS: essentially this can be seen as canvas being made into something it was nevr intended for, any response?
<oedipus> a11y is often the "canary in the coal mine" when it comes to "standard" architectures
RS: understand apples intenet for canvas, but reality entirely different, unlike svg most people doing desktop apps usnderstand canvas, they wiil/are using canvas to cerate applications, so from a11y perspective at the end of the day still have to have access to it, for a11y need fetaures built in
<oedipus> profiles was feedback from the TV industry at TPAC 2010 HTML WG F2F
RS: at last tpac set top
manufacturers said sweet spot for html5 will be canvas +
JS
... whats happeneing is not what was intended need to take this
into account
MS: this is not an incremental;
change its fundemental change to architecture of canvas
implementaion, is it necessary and why?
... what will they gain?
RS: do we have to do a full blown reatined mode? I don't think we do, only needed for hot testing
MS: probably said enough for now, have enough info to go forward
JF: canvas + JS thanks
RS: ian highlighted need to
develope solution not just for accessibility, hiti testing does
that
... not askin g for all, just enough to support a11y
<oedipus> hit-testing is needed by AT devs -- they asked for it
RS: put in a very simple hit testing stratgey on top of canvas without having to have full retained mode
MS: bug triage next, mike, marco, martin?
MC: not much done,in last few weeks
<oedipus> plus 1 to big thanks to bug triage team
MS: letting things queue up a bit
due to last call
... bug triage team greta job!
... no urgency
OK thanks
<oedipus> media telecon minutes from 2011-04-06 http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-html-a11y-minutes.html
JF: focused on vexing issue 152,
multitrack API, chairs granted extension, have 3-4 solid
proposals with fundemantal differences, still talking issues
through
... lot of discussion about Ian's mediacontroller proposal,
discussion about master timeline, still dissecting options,
will be having to con calls a week for the next few weeks,
convey our sense of urgency to chairs please mike
... resolution critical to last call
... general feeling is that calls are productive
MS: you sid it would be extremely problematic if we get it reoslved prior to last call,
JF: if we can't do it we cannot provide sign language captions
MS: does not mean we won't vere have it but not just before last call
JF: if it goes into last call without then the htnl5 spec will not be complete
<Zakim> judy, you wanted to further clarify for Mike
MS: HTML WG or W3C process does not require it to be complete before going to last call
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/
JB: people feel that significant
requirement will niot be met if certain requirements are not in
the spec, multitrack is something that is needed to meet the
crieria of being feature complete before last call
... if there was progress before last call, the co-chairs
asserted that they would not stand on formality, thats why
people are working hjard to get consensus before last call
<MikeSmith> I don't accept the assertion that not having this decided by start of LC will compromise progress of implementations during the coming year
JB: one of the reasons why the last call timimg is of concern, is as we all know it is being implemented as it involves, not having stable multitrack will comprimise implementations in the coming year, thinks track it is one now is making gopod progress so should not be an issue
<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that this is not a "must" requirement in the process document, and the WG chairs have discretion to determine LC process for their groups
<JF> +q
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#Reports
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#rec-advance
<oedipus> this is similar to canvas -- it is being implemented NOW by fiat without a11y isxues addressed, and it is MUCH harder to address a11y after-the-fact than building it in from the start
MS: prcess doc does not say the
spec has to be feature complete, gives WG chairs discretion,
which is what the HTML chairs are doing, also do not agree that
it will comprimise implementation in the coming year regardless
ofif this gets decided before LC
... if we try to force resolution before lC could be a problem,
we have people working together, on the path to resolution
JF: moving to alst call will we continue to get heartbeat udpates during last call? after may 22nd
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#maturity-levels
MS: its up to html wg chairs for
publication, they feel strongly about heartbeat requirements,
feel they will be pushing to continue . also implementors will
work from editors draft not stable spec
... what authors of books and turorials do we can't have
control over
JF: so impelemntors have control?
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that 1 problem is blind obedience to "WG process" -- canvas a11y work was a specific task of Canvas Subteam, there should have been no call for
MS: yes implementors have control over wehat goes into the spec
Gregory: disagree with process
MS: need to take it up with the
chairs
... talke it up on the html call/mailing list
<JF> You can have Quality, On budget, and On Time - pick 2
<JF> +1 to Judy
MS: affects us but we cannot do anything about it in the a11 task force
<oedipus> plus 1 to judy -- W3C process different from "WG process" set up by chairs, but they are following cookie-cutter process which is detrimental to development of spec
JB: it may be useful to refer to 2 different levels of process 1. w3c process protective of accessibility , html wg microprocess directs them to issue call for proposal even on areas that have been worked on by taskforces
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#maturity-levels
JB: we have disagreements amongst
w3c reps in regards to feature completeness. disagree on
interpretation of feature completeness
... have several items in a11y area now where it may need a
forma objection. one of the process things that is very clear
if you disagree there are steps to object
would,like to get groups disagreement documented
<eric_carlson> minus 1 to Judy -- giving *any* group of experts absolute authority is a bad idea
<JF> @ eric_carlson - as opposed to allowing uninformed participants steam-roller issues that harms real accessibility?
JB: my sense is moving things that are stuck, may be usefulto get a more focused discussion, form subgroup to develop propsoal aroun alt issues
<oedipus> eric_carlson, we aren't asking for absolute authority -- only that the HTML WG and chairs recognize that accessibility is the specific focus of the TF and the WAI and that info from those fora deserve to be listened to and not told that our use cases concern someone's mother-in-law (see last week's statement by paulc)
JB: media current status, support from co-chairs, not stand on ceremony if progress to consensus
<oedipus> MS: summary of where subgroup is at?
<oedipus> SF: haven't had meetings due to other work and due to work assigned at SD f2f
<JF> +q
<oedipus> SF: 2 areas of work: 1 writing text for definition of @role and aria attributes in HTML5 -- will ocur during last call
<oedipus> SF: 2. HTML-A11y-API doc -- emailing those concerned to get more fomal process to work on document -- a lot of work -- need others' involvement
<oedipus> SF: HTML-A11y API mapping document will get more attention once the aria-in-html work is done
<oedipus> CS: should see progress in 2 weeks time
<oedipus> MS: announced on list consensus for FPWD of A11y APIs
<oedipus> MS: waing for chairs to send request for transition to plh
MS: paul said we had consensus for html accessibility API guide to be publsihed as FPWD
<oedipus> MS: waiting for comm team to get frist FPWD published -- maybe tuesday or thursday this week
oedipus: can you scribe now as i gotta go soon/
<oedipus> HTML Working Group Decision on ISSUE-32 table-summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html
<inserted> scribenick: oedipus
JB: assume everyone on call has read WG decision
[general yeses]
JB: yes or no question: do people feel that HTML5 is feature complete without @summary for TABLE
SF: yes
GJR: no
JS: no
JF: no
CS: can live with it (actgually, without it in HTML5)
RS: my take on @sumjmary --
advantages to saying can do same things with ARIA that is
cross-platform
... some advantages to control what we provide in host
langauges -- have to do if summary out or not
<JF> +q
JB: do people feel co-chairs decision on table summary showed full understanding of the accessibility issues and accessiblity in general
<Stevef> SF:yes
GJR: no definitely not
JF: hixie posted to mailing list
that ARIA only for A11y API mapping
... hixie claims aria only affects a11y API mappings and only
for ATs
RS: design is interoperability for AT
JF: quotes from hixie
... decision for TABLE summary is wrong because says use ARIA
to fix all problems
... goes in wrong direction
RS: alt is also used when turn
graphics off -- alt text would be rendered in content, so has
additional functionality
... doesn't apply to @summary
... could do same thing through A11y API
... some ATs will use DOM -- get same static info
JF: looks like trying to use
conformance checkers to undue existing attributes in
HTML4/XHTML1
... what is practical impact of removing @summary for TABLE
from HTML5?
RS: if comes out, need to provide
WCAG 2.0 techs to deliver what summary does today -- how to do
with ARIA
... don't worry about conformance checkers -- most content
today is all rendered on client and conformance checker would
miss that -- A11y test tools test dynamic content -- can tell
if @summary or aria-label missing
... validators today miss most of today's web content
JB: may need a subteam to look at mulitple issues concerning alternate descriptions of content -- several appear to be lacking -- rejected or lack of understanding of rationale by chairs
<MikeSmith> before we adjourn, is there anybody please who can volunteer to scribe for next week's call?
JB: on @longdesc concerned that TF role a bit confused -- subgroup could stablize and champion propsal
JS: have action to write up use cases to write up -- should take LC's proposal to TF and work on it from there
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say @summary cannot be "pushed-off" onto ARIA -- what about thosee who don't use AT
<judy> JB asks who's interested in sub-group on alternative descriptions? perhaps people can start expressing interest in irc now?
<JF> Judy - add me
<JF> +1 to greg
the chairs have removed a feature of HTML added EXPRESSLY to increase accessibility--this should NOT have been done without acknowledging the need/use cases clearly articulated from those who directly benefit from @summary--can we perhaps have a PF/WAI finding that all markup introduced to HTML4 expressly for accessibility MUST either be equaled or improved by HTML5, which means not judging...
scribe: such markup by "standard" web metrics;
JB: best to rotate --
judy, micheal has a scribe rotation list
MS: anything else need to do before adjournment?
<MikeSmith> adjourned
<richardschwerdtfe> Judy: sure I would be happy to participate in subteams on some of the issues such as text equivalents
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: i/MS: canvas subteam/TOPIC: Canvas Subteam Report Succeeded: i/MS: not too much agenda /TOPIC: Agenda Review Succeeded: s/sweet spot fot html5 will be canvas + css/sweet spot for html5 will be canvas + JS/ Succeeded: s/would not stand/the co-chairs asserted that they would not stand/ Succeeded: s/svk JG// Succeeded: i/MS: not too much agenda/scribenick: Stevef Succeeded: i/JB: assume everyone on call has read WG decision/scribenick: oedipus Succeeded: s/JB: want to scan minutes// Succeeded: s/multitrack is something that meets the crieria/multitrack is something that is needed to meet the crieria/ Succeeded: s/disagree and will be adding to minutes myself/disagree on interpretation of feature completeness/ Found ScribeNick: Stevef Found ScribeNick: oedipus Inferring Scribes: Stevef, oedipus Scribes: Stevef, oedipus ScribeNicks: Stevef, oedipus Default Present: John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, Judy, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Mike, +44.207.391.aaaa, MRanon, Rich, Léonie_Watson, Cynthia_Shelly Present: Cynthia_Shelly Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina_Sajka John_Foliot Judy Léonie_Watson MRanon Michael_Cooper Mike Rich Steve_Faulkner Regrets: Laura_Carlson Denis_Boudreau Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Apr/0041.html Found Date: 07 Apr 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]