IRC log of css on 2011-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-css-irc
16:19:54 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:19:54 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
16:19:59 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:29:50 [shan]: shan has joined #css
16:46:58 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:53:48 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
16:54:02 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:55:32 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:55:39 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:57:09 [johnjan]: johnjan has joined #CSS
16:57:16 [johnjan]: zakim, microsoft is johnjan
16:57:16 [Zakim]: sorry, johnjan, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
16:57:31 [dsinger_]: zakim, who is here?
16:57:35 [Zakim]: On the phone I see dsinger
16:57:41 [Zakim]: On IRC I see johnjan, dsinger_, sylvaing, bradk, shan, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, homata_, Ms2ger, karl, davve, myakura, arronei, lhnz, jgraham, jdaggett, fantasai, hober,
16:57:46 [Zakim]: ... CSSWG_LogBot, plinss, krijnh, gsnedders, Hixie, Bert, TabAtkins, trackbot
16:58:13 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
16:59:13 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:59:15 [arronei]: zakim, microsoft is me
16:59:15 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
16:59:33 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:59:53 [Zakim]: +??P44
16:59:57 [johnjan]: zakim, microsoft is johnjan
16:59:57 [Zakim]: +johnjan; got it
17:00:04 [glazou]: Zakim, ?P44 is me
17:00:04 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P44'
17:00:06 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:00:12 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P44 is me
17:00:12 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
17:00:16 [sylvaing]: Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:00:16 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
17:00:22 [cesar]: cesar has joined #css
17:00:38 [Zakim]: +bradk
17:01:46 [Zakim]: +??P53
17:02:01 [Zakim]: + +1.561.024.aaaa
17:02:43 [shan]: Zakim, ??P53 is me
17:02:43 [Zakim]: +shan; got it
17:02:49 [cesar]: zakim, aaaa is me
17:02:49 [Zakim]: +cesar; got it
17:03:41 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
17:04:02 [Zakim]: +fantasai
17:04:21 [Zakim]: +smfr
17:04:39 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
17:05:03 [glazou]: dsinger_: lol
17:05:15 [cesar]: Is anyone using SIP? Neither zakim@voip.w3.org or 123@voip.w3.org are working for me (and my SIP configuration seems to be right, since I'm calling through it to the Boston number).
17:05:20 [glazou]: cesar: yes
17:05:29 [glazou]: works for me
17:05:38 [glazou]: but cuts every 15mins apparently, no idea why
17:05:56 [glazou]: cesar: most probably a bad config on your side if 123 does not answer
17:05:58 [cesar]: I see. I'll have to investigate further.
17:06:15 [glazou]: Zakim, who is here?
17:06:15 [Zakim]: On the phone I see dsinger (muted), arronei, johnjan, glazou, [Microsoft], bradk, shan, cesar, fantasai, smfr
17:06:18 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:06:20 [Zakim]: On IRC I see dbaron, smfr, cesar, oyvind, johnjan, dsinger_, sylvaing, bradk, shan, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, homata_, Ms2ger, karl, davve, myakura, arronei, lhnz, jgraham,
17:06:23 [Zakim]: ... jdaggett, fantasai, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, plinss, krijnh, gsnedders, Hixie, Bert, TabAtkins, trackbot
17:06:25 [Zakim]: +Bert
17:06:28 [dbaron]: I'm getting "this passcode is not valid"
17:06:50 [dbaron]: I tried about 10 times
17:06:55 [glazou]: dbaron: use SIP?
17:07:24 [Zakim]: -bradk
17:07:28 [Zakim]: +plinss
17:08:12 [Zakim]: +bradk
17:08:26 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:08:27 [glazou]: Zakim, you're painful
17:08:27 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'you're painful', glazou
17:08:39 [fantasai]: ScribeNick: fantasai
17:08:52 [fantasai]: glazou: F2F meeting next week
17:09:04 [fantasai]: glazou: 3 items for today: CSS2.1 Issues, the F2F itself, Tokyo F2F + workshop
17:09:15 [fantasai]: glazou: Unclear to me if there is anything we should spend on 2.1 now
17:09:22 [fantasai]: glazou: since we are going to meet f2f next week
17:09:29 [fantasai]: glazou: Let's start with next week's agenda and agenda items
17:09:33 [fantasai]: glazou: thoughts?
17:09:35 [fantasai]: <silence>
17:09:49 [fantasai]: Bert: Let's do f2f
17:09:53 [Zakim]: +howcome
17:09:57 [fantasai]: Topic: F2F Topics and Agenda
17:10:09 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:10:26 [fantasai]: glazou: Several people sent arrival and departure information to mailing list. If you haven't yet, please do so so dbaron can compile the attendance list
17:11:05 [fantasai]: glazou: Anything else people should note for Monday morning?
17:11:11 [fantasai]: dbaron: Don't think so. Put 9am on the meeting page.
17:11:42 [fantasai]: glazou: Some ppl interested in dinner plans for Sunday. Let's try to gather somewhere, we'll discuss through email on Sunday.
17:12:08 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mountain-view-2011
17:12:33 [fantasai]: glazou: We have a few options here. We could start discussing agenda now, or keep as 1st item for Monday morning
17:13:01 [fantasai]: glazou: It's helpful to note which days people are around. I believe John is leaving early, on Tuesday evening
17:13:20 [fantasai]: dbaron: I copied data from the wiki onto meeting page, along with information sent via meeting survey and email
17:13:23 [dbaron]: http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2011/MountainView#participants
17:13:25 [fantasai]: 'http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2011/MountainView
17:13:59 [fantasai]: glazou: John, since you're mostly the only one who won't make all three days, which items do you want to addressed during your time?
17:14:08 [fantasai]: johnjan: CSS2.1
17:14:27 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Markus and Phil are coming in to discuss layout on Tuesday, would be best to put related topics all on Tuesday
17:15:05 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:15:14 [dbaron]: glazou, you dropped off
17:15:24 [Zakim]: +??P70
17:15:44 [fantasai]: glazou: Can you describe what you want to discuss for multi-col?
17:15:51 [fantasai]: howcome: Want to get closure on the pseudo-algorithm
17:16:00 [fantasai]: glazou: If you would add to the wiki the time you would need for that...
17:16:06 [fantasai]: glazou: Everybody please add estimated times for your topics
17:17:13 [fantasai]: glazou: A couple of NTT participants didn't send information, maybe Koji can follow up.
17:17:20 [fantasai]: dbaron: There are four participants registered from NTT
17:17:28 [fantasai]: Topic: CSS2.1
17:17:38 [fantasai]: glazou: John, you sent a long email listing blocking issues
17:18:02 [fantasai]: glazou: You list 5 blocking tests
17:18:11 [glazou]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/quotes-035.htm
17:18:26 [fantasai]: John's email:
17:18:28 [dbaron]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2011Jan/0095.html
17:18:29 [fantasai]: I believe we should get as much of CSS2.1 complete before the Face-2-Face as we can. Ideally, I think we all agree that we should spend only a short time during the face-to-face making sure we're complete on CSS2.1. If we leave too many open issues until then, we will run over which will be detrimental to the remaining agenda items.
17:18:34 [fantasai]: To that end, I think we should use the conference call tomorrow to discuss Blocking Tests and Spec Issues. It would probably be best if everyone reviewed these ahead of time as well, so we can effectively discuss on the phone. I'm including a list of the blocking tests and spec issues below.
17:18:39 [fantasai]: The remaining blocking tests look like this:
17:18:41 [fantasai]: Quotes-35: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/quotes-035.htm
17:18:44 [fantasai]: Status: Gecko passes.
17:18:46 [fantasai]: ACTION: Howcome: Where is Opera on their fixes? If it's not fixed in their nightlies, I propose we remove the test. Address in errata.
17:18:46 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-299 - Where is Opera on their fixes? If it's not fixed in their nightlies, I propose we remove the test. Address in errata. [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2011-03-09].
17:18:50 [fantasai]: Replaced-intrinsic-ratio-001: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/replaced-intrinsic-ratio-001.htm
17:18:53 [fantasai]: Status: No passes.
17:18:56 [fantasai]: ACTION: I propose we remove the test. Address in errata.
17:18:56 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - I
17:18:58 [fantasai]: Forced-page-break-000: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/forced-page-breaks-000.htm
17:19:01 [fantasai]: Status: Prince passes.
17:19:04 [fantasai]: ACTION: I propose we remove the test. Address in errata.
17:19:04 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - I
17:19:06 [fantasai]: Orphans-004a: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/orphans-004a.htm
17:19:09 [fantasai]: Status: Trident and Prince pass this test.
17:19:11 [fantasai]: ACTION: Why is the test in the test harness different from the one above? I propose we simply use the old test.
17:19:11 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - Why
17:19:14 [fantasai]: Bidi-004a: Does not exist. Bidi-004: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/bidi-004.htm
17:19:17 [fantasai]: Status: Trident Passes.
17:19:20 [fantasai]: ACTION: If Prince or WebToPdf do not pass, I propose we remove the test. Address in errata.
17:19:20 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - If
17:19:23 [fantasai]: The remaining Spec issues look like this:
17:19:25 [fantasai]: 60 - Sylvain and Bert Edit
17:19:28 [fantasai]: 142 - Bert Edit
17:19:30 [fantasai]: 153 - Bert Edit
17:19:33 [fantasai]: 159 - Bert Edit
17:19:35 [fantasai]: 181 - Bert Edit
17:19:38 [fantasai]: 192 - Tab - Summarize
17:19:40 [fantasai]: 197 - Closed
17:19:43 [fantasai]: 198 - Closed
17:19:45 [fantasai]: 199 - ALL REVIEW
17:19:48 [fantasai]: 204 - NEEDS PROPOSAL. I suggest we move to Errata.
17:19:50 [fantasai]: 205 - NEEDS DISCUSSION. I suggest we move to Errata.
17:19:53 [fantasai]: 206 - Bert needs to respond.
17:19:55 [fantasai]: 207 - NEEDS DISCUSSION. I suggest we move to Errata (clearance is under-spec'd).
17:19:58 [fantasai]: 208 - NEEDS DISCUSSION. I suggest we move to Errata.
17:20:00 [fantasai]: 209 - Closed
17:20:01 [smfr]: should someone kick fantasai?
17:20:03 [fantasai]: 210 - Bert Edit
17:20:04 [dbaron]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2011Jan/0095.html
17:20:05 [fantasai]: 211 - DBaron made a proposal. Approve? Bert Edit
17:20:08 [fantasai]: 212 - NEEDS DISCUSSION. I suggest we leave it as is.
17:20:10 [fantasai]: 213 - Bert Edit
17:20:13 [fantasai]: 214 - Closed
17:20:15 [fantasai]: 215 - Bert Edit
17:20:18 [fantasai]: 216 - Bert Edit
17:20:20 [fantasai]: 218 - Bert Edit
17:20:23 [fantasai]: 219 - Fantasai - Proposal.
17:20:25 [fantasai]: 220 - Bert Edit
17:20:28 [fantasai]: 221 - Bert Edit
17:20:30 [fantasai]: 222 - Trivial. Suggest to leave as is.
17:20:33 [fantasai]: 223 - Trivial. Suggest to leave as is.
17:20:35 [fantasai]: 224 - Fantasai - review
17:20:38 [fantasai]: glazou: First item is quotes-035
17:20:40 [fantasai]: glazou: Only one browser passes: Gecko
17:20:43 [fantasai]: johnjan: last I looked at this, someone mentioned was only a couple small fixes
17:20:45 [fantasai]: johnjan: but if they're not made, we should remove the test
17:20:55 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:21:03 [fantasai]: dbaron: It's a very comprehensive test, so we should just simplify the test a bit instead of removing it
17:21:26 [fantasai]: dbaron: Also if we are making those things undefined, we should make them a SHOULD and say that they will be defined in a future level
17:21:37 [Zakim]: +Bert
17:21:54 [fantasai]: ?: Who edits that test?
17:22:17 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_ has joined #css
17:22:22 [fantasai]: (The test belongs to hixie.)
17:24:14 [fantasai]: fantasai: Do we have any contact with the developer responsible at Opera?
17:24:30 [glazou]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/replaced-intrinsic-ratio-001.htm
17:24:31 [fantasai]: No, we only have bugs filed in the tracker, nobody has talked to the developer who knows the code.
17:24:42 [fantasai]: johnjan: I think we should just remove it, not rely on Opera to fix it.
17:25:10 [fantasai]: dbaron: I've been working on that fix this week.
17:25:19 [fantasai]: glazou: That's only one implementation.
17:25:31 [fantasai]: smfr: I haven't had time to work on this.
17:25:40 [fantasai]: glazou: Do you think you will have time to work on this?
17:25:49 [fantasai]: smfr: No
17:25:52 [fantasai]: glazou: So we should remove the test
17:26:19 [fantasai]: fantasai: So what are we going to do, put in the spec that the behavior of SVG is undefined?
17:26:57 [TabAtkins]: Officially, it is.
17:27:10 [TabAtkins]: We know what it *should* say, but it's not present in SVG at the moment.
17:27:35 [TabAtkins]: I move for "undefined, but with a note about the expected behavior once SVG is updated appropriately".
17:28:04 [fantasai]: SVG doesn't need an update, Tab. Our spec needs to say that the sizing of replaced elements with an intrinsic ratio and no width or height is undefined.
17:28:23 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
17:28:27 [fantasai]: Because that's what the test is testing.
17:28:36 [fantasai]: sylvaing: So where are we moving the definition to?
17:28:40 [TabAtkins]: Ah, right, just a ratio. Sorry. Yeah, undefined.
17:28:42 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:28:48 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:28:49 [TabAtkins]: It should be in Image Values, imo.
17:28:52 [fantasai]: yes
17:28:56 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:28:56 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
17:29:33 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Sizing of replaced elements with intrinsic ratio but no width or height (i.e. scalable SVG) is UNDEFINED in CSS2.1.
17:29:47 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:29:50 [fantasai]: ACTION: fantasai write a proposal to remove the definition!
17:29:50 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-300 - Write a proposal to remove the definition! [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-03-09].
17:29:57 [Zakim]: +??P6
17:30:19 [glazou]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/forced-page-breaks-000.htm
17:30:40 [fantasai]: johnjan: Prince passes this test
17:30:49 [fantasai]: Does Web2PDF pass?
17:31:44 [fantasai]: plinss: We have a pass.
17:32:16 [glazou]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/orphans-004a.htm
17:32:24 [fantasai]: johnjan: orphans-004a is different now in the harness than in the last suite
17:33:35 [fantasai]: plinss: Web2PDF and Prince pass 004a
17:33:52 [plinss]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/nightly-unstable/html4/orphans-004a.htm
17:33:55 [fantasai]: plinss: The link pasted is RC5, the harness is running on the nightly builds
17:34:03 [fantasai]: glazou: Do we have passes for 004b?
17:34:11 [fantasai]: plinss: Opera, IE, and Web2PDF
17:34:29 [fantasai]: johnjan: bidi-004
17:34:54 [fantasai]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/nightly-unstable/html4/bidi-004a.htm
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17:38:04 [fantasai]: ACTION: fantasai remove remaining white-space processing portion of test
17:38:04 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-301 - Remove remaining white-space processing portion of test [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-03-09].
17:38:26 [fantasai]: glazou: Still have issues that need editing. Bert?
17:38:38 [fantasai]: glazou: Will you be able to make the edits before the F2F?
17:38:49 [fantasai]: Bert: I got stuck on the first two, sent messages to the mailing list.
17:39:00 [fantasai]: Bert: Not sure I can finish all of them, but should have a story any remaining ones
17:40:34 [fantasai]: glazou asks about 206
17:40:53 [fantasai]: Bert explains that the lexer is not context-sensitive, which is why there is only one token
17:41:02 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-206
17:41:24 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-60
17:41:32 [fantasai]: sylvaing: That was the big z-index issue with Anton Prowse
17:41:44 [fantasai]: sylvaing: We agreed on the resolution
17:41:51 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Bert changed things in the edits
17:41:57 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Anton disagreed with some of the edits
17:42:01 [fantasai]: sylvaing: But it went in anyway
17:42:17 [fantasai]: sylvaing: In the process of checking the edits, fantasai noticed some problems
17:42:39 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Rather than editing this further, I think we should revert to the original proposal
17:42:50 [fantasai]: sylvaing: I'm not comfortable messing with this so close to finishing the spec
17:44:09 [fantasai]: fantasai: I don't mind working from Bert's version, as long as the errors are fixed and Anton approves the result.
17:44:37 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:44:46 [Zakim]: +??P2
17:44:48 [Zakim]: -??P2
17:44:58 [Zakim]: +??P2
17:45:03 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P2 is me
17:45:03 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
17:45:27 [fantasai]: fantasai: So, Bert, I suggest you work on Issue 60 first, go through the messages I posted and Anton posted to the mailing list on the review and address all of the comments there.
17:45:45 [fantasai]: fantasai: Then post the editor's draft to the mailing list and ask Anton to review and suggest any further edits he feels necessary
17:45:57 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-222
17:46:03 [Zakim]: -bradk
17:46:48 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0329.html
17:46:53 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0409.html
17:46:58 [fantasai]: (z-index review)
17:47:25 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Oct/0027.html
17:47:36 [Zakim]: +bradk
17:48:12 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-223
17:48:14 [Zakim]: -bradk
17:48:43 [Zakim]: +bradk
17:50:09 [dbaron]: I think "further content" means "content after the float's placeholder"
17:50:59 [fantasai]: johnjan: Should we work on another issue, or assign people to work on issues?
17:51:13 [fantasai]: glazou: If the issues require a lot of time to discuss, it may delay things again.
17:51:59 [cesar]: This is probably a stupid question, but... in order to call Zakim using SIP, do I just have to enter zakim@voip.w3.org instead of a phone number in my SIP client?
17:52:11 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-204
17:52:22 [glazou]: cesar: yes
17:52:35 [cesar]: Hmmm...
17:52:40 [glazou]: cesar: you on mac ?
17:53:02 [cesar]: Yes. Indeed, now I've joined the telcon using X-Lite, but calling to the usual phone number.
17:53:17 [glazou]: cesar: use Telephone from the Mac App Store, works great with SIP
17:53:41 [glazou]: (even if I keep being disconnected after 15mns, probably a weak implem of SIP timeouts)
17:53:56 [cesar]: I've tried too, with no success: I get an "Address not found" error when I enter a SIP address instead of a number.
17:54:40 [glazou]: cesar: then your SIP server is not correctly configured
17:54:53 [cesar]: :(
17:56:57 [fantasai]: Issues 204 and 205 assumed editorial;.
17:57:14 [fantasai]: 207 deferred to F2F (clearance)
17:58:53 [fantasai]: Meeting closed.
17:58:54 [Zakim]: -dbaron
17:58:55 [Zakim]: -johnjan
17:58:55 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:58:56 [Zakim]: -howcome
17:58:57 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:58:58 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:58:58 [Zakim]: -arronei
17:58:59 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:59:01 [Zakim]: -shan
17:59:04 [Zakim]: -cesar
17:59:06 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:59:07 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
17:59:14 [Zakim]: -bradk
17:59:17 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:59:18 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:59:20 [Zakim]: Attendees were dsinger, arronei, johnjan, glazou, sylvaing, bradk, +1.561.024.aaaa, shan, cesar, fantasai, smfr, Bert, plinss, howcome, dbaron
17:59:51 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
18:00:12 [glazou]: johnjan: see /query
18:07:46 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: does WebKit have the equivalent of http://mxr.mozilla.org/ ?
18:08:00 [fantasai]: (i.e. searching the codebase)
18:10:40 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: http://google.com/codesearch?vert=chromium
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21:56:39 [dbaron_]: fantasai, is the right thing to do with the original quotes-035.htm to move it back to incoming/ but otherwise with the same path?
21:56:51 [dbaron_]: (and then I'd make the new one as, say, quotes-035a)
21:58:24 [dbaron_]: fantasai, or maybe it should remain as a 'should' test?
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22:26:39 [fantasai]: dbaron_: I'd leave it as a should test
22:26:50 [dbaron_]: fantasai, yep, I did that
22:27:27 [fantasai]: because I think the test is valuable to have, and it's already there...
22:31:03 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #css
22:31:56 [dbaron_]: Our upcoming meeting has attendees with family names beginning with all letters of the alphabet in the range A-O.
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