13:43:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
13:43:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/01-awwsw-irc
13:56:22 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:57:18 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
13:57:18 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has not yet started, dbooth
13:57:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see dbooth, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar_, webr3, trackbot
13:57:28 <dbooth> Meeting: AWWSW
13:57:35 <dbooth> zakim, this will be awwsw
13:57:35 <Zakim> ok, dbooth; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:58:26 <jar_> agenda+ nathan please add links to http://www.w3.org/wiki/HttpRange14Webography
13:58:36 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
13:58:43 <Zakim> +DBooth
13:59:39 <Zakim> +jar
14:00:59 <jar_> agenda+ TAG issue tracking
14:01:24 <jar_> agenda+ next steps on www-tag (doc review, or a call of some kind)
14:01:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:02:09 <webr3> Zakim, i am +[IPcaller]
14:02:09 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not see a party named '+[IPcaller]'
14:02:14 <jar_> agenda+ toward consensus doc from awwsw - maybe the 'requirements'?
14:03:22 <jar_> agenda?
14:04:48 <webr3> scribenick, webr3
14:05:02 <webr3> Zakim, scribenick: webr3
14:05:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribenick: webr3', webr3
14:07:18 <webr3> scribe: nathan
14:07:48 <dbooth> scribenick: webr3
14:08:42 <jar_> this one: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir-axioms/
14:10:03 <webr3> action: nathan to add links to wiki
14:10:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Add links to wiki [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-08].
14:10:19 <dbooth> Topic: Requirements doc
14:10:35 <jar_> zakim, take up item 1
14:10:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "nathan please add links to http://www.w3.org/wiki/HttpRange14Webography" taken up [from jar_]
14:10:54 <webr3> Scribe: webr3
14:11:15 <jar_> zakim, take up item 2
14:11:15 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TAG issue tracking" taken up [from jar_]
14:12:02 <webr3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Feb/0150.html
14:12:36 <jar_> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/534
14:12:54 <jar_> here's the relevant email re 57: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Mar/0000.html
14:13:39 <jar_> Change title to: "Mechanisms for obtaining information about the intended
14:13:40 <jar_>                  meaning of a given URI"
14:14:37 <webr3> jar: does anybody object to the title
14:14:42 <webr3> all: no objections
14:14:46 <jar_> (no particular input from group)
14:15:03 <jar_> nathan thinks that's a good title
14:15:43 <webr3> zakim, take up item 3
14:15:43 <Zakim> agendum 3. "next steps on www-tag (doc review, or a call of some kind)" taken up [from jar_]
14:16:01 <webr3> jar: i had two questions
14:16:14 <webr3> ... 1: next step on the broader continuation of uri-meaning work
14:16:38 <webr3> ... if you guys want to give input, you can
14:17:01 <webr3> dbooth: this is tag work yes, seems like we need to get a draft for tag review
14:17:33 <webr3> jar: there are two things going on here, consensus doc for issue-57 review, and awwsw tf report
14:17:43 <webr3> ... two different docs, w/ intertwining paths
14:18:02 <webr3> dbooth: it seems ambitous to do two docs
14:18:12 <webr3> jar: i think we need 2 or 3 docs
14:18:21 <webr3> dbooth: so a report of where we're at or?
14:18:37 <webr3> jar: produce some kind of ontology, or vocabs or
14:19:21 <jar_> series #1: awwsw reports/notes (consensus within awwsw, reporting to tag & community)
14:19:46 <jar_> series #2: tag reports/notes (consensus in TAG and/or in community)
14:20:07 <jar_> this TF is responsible for #1
14:20:53 <jar_> #2 would tag finding and/or rec track
14:21:11 <dbooth> s/would/would be/
14:22:27 <jar_> jar thinks intent to do #2 should be announced sooner rather than later, since otherwise situation will continue to fray
14:23:21 <jar_> dbooth: wants #1 note in hand before going to www-tag.  awwsw consensus
14:23:35 <jar_> db: need to get over barriers of terminology and confusion
14:24:14 <jar_> jar: framing the tag issue?
14:24:21 <jar_> oar background?
14:24:52 <jar_> nathan: 1) summary of space and views 2) consensus in awwsw re interoperability 3) axioms or ontology
14:26:12 <jar_> dbooth: don't try to be too ambitious re #1... too comprehensive gets out of control... but need to say something
14:26:42 <jar_> ... #3 could be separate
14:26:55 <jar_> (agreement that #3 stands on its own)
14:27:18 <jar_> #1 & #2 are a second document
14:27:58 <webr3> nathan: can we do 3 until 2 is done?
14:28:02 <jar_> dbooth #3 can be helpful in getting clarity...  work on them in parallel
14:28:16 <webr3> all: general agreement - sounds like a plan
14:28:24 <jar_> jar: how quickly can we do this?
14:28:59 <jar_> ... what do we need to do to get there?
14:30:15 <jar_> dbooth: start with ir-axioms doc & owl
14:30:27 <jar_> ... doesn't solve issue 57 of course
14:31:31 <dbooth> http://dbooth.org/2009/lifecycle/
14:31:48 <dbooth> http://dbooth.org/2010/ambiguity/
14:33:06 <webr3> jar: we want documents as short as possible
14:33:17 <dbooth> Those documents both address the social obligations involved
14:33:53 <dbooth> but we could start with those documents in addressing issue-57
14:35:45 <jar_> port 80 means http, without a marker...
14:36:03 <jar_> 200 is supposed to mean IR without a marker... but the obligation is being resisted
14:36:07 <jar_> implied obligation
14:39:17 <jar_> Plan A = refer to IR using its URI, refer to thing-described-by-doc using 303 URI, #, .well-known, tdb: etc
14:39:41 <jar_> Plan B = refer to tdb using 200 URI, refer to IR  *** UNKNOWN ***  (maybe IRW or ir-axioms)
14:40:00 <jar_> 1) summary of space and views
14:40:32 <jar_> we need a vocab that doesn't assume either plan...
14:42:09 <jar_> two classes of things, OVERLAPPING.  IR, and thing-described-by-document.
14:43:02 <jar_> maybe instead IR, it's IR-with-reps-available-at-URI
14:45:47 <jar_> agenda?
14:45:50 <dbooth> Topic: Axioms doc
14:46:16 <dbooth> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir-axioms/
14:48:04 <jar_> a simple IR is like a representation, except that it's an IR
14:50:47 <jar_> simple IR is like content-location:
14:51:53 <jar_> dbooth: unseasy with simple IR
14:52:32 <webr3> and REST: ''Some resources are static in the sense that, when examined at any time after their creation, they always correspond to the same value set.''
14:52:36 <jar_> a simple IR is one that has only one representation (fixed resource)
14:53:47 <jar_> dbooth: instead of trinity, we have 4 things, URI, IR, simple IR, representation
14:54:54 <jar_> jar tbd: A simple IR has only one representation... by definition
14:55:20 <jar_> the writeup says this, but not clearly enough.  will fix
14:56:47 <webr3> both returning the same int - /mary/age vs /bob/age
14:57:27 <jar_> TimBL says these are different IRs with the same representation
14:58:43 <jar_> "have different meaning"
15:00:17 <jar_> dbooth: How to make this more palatable?
15:01:37 <jar_> dbooth: model an IR as a function... a simple IR would be a constant function...
15:02:16 <jar_> doc needs to say very plainly that a simple IR is one that has a single representation
15:03:15 <jar_> nathan: Is the IRI / URI part of the simple IR?  Does a simple IR 'know' its own URI?
15:03:44 <jar_> source URI is like provenance
15:06:54 <jar_> simple IR could be modeled as a pair (rep, prov) where rep is a represenation and prov is provenance
15:07:05 <jar_> provenance might or might not involve some URI
15:07:49 <jar_> provenance is history and/or material context
15:10:48 <jar_> IR  ->  {simple IR = (rep, bits)}  ->  rep
15:11:03 <jar_> rep may be shared, under different provenances, but
15:11:08 <jar_> sorry scratch
15:11:19 <jar_> IR  ->  {simple IR = (rep, provenance)}  ->  rep
15:11:51 <jar_> rep (mathematical; bits) can be shared among multiple simple IRs  (puns, coincidences)
15:14:37 <dbooth> I'm trying to frame this in terms of IR as a function from (Time x Request) to Representation, and Simple-IR is a constant function from (Time x Request) to Representation.
15:14:47 <jar_> can't model simple IR as a constant function AND have 2 simple IRs with same rep
15:16:49 <dbooth> "Does Mary authorize this?" vs "Does Bob authorize this?"
15:17:31 <jar_> SIR1, SIR2 both have same rep, but Mary authorizes one, Bob the other.
15:17:55 <jar_> nathan: like having the question + the answer.
15:18:58 <dbooth> GET on SIR1 yields: "yes"
15:19:10 <dbooth> GET on SIR2 yields: "yes"
15:19:43 <jar_> 'speak for' is a better idea... does Mary authorize the resource to speak for her?
15:21:20 <dbooth> I would say that SIR1 is bound to one URI U1, and SIR2 is bound to another URI U2, and that's how you know who authorized.
15:25:36 <webr3> [[ Even given an enumeration of syntactic parts, a simple IR's identity is not determined - two simple IRs might have all the same parts yet have distinct origins (provenance).  ]]
15:31:32 <jar_> Maybe convince TimBL and others to agree that representations are information resources?... no way
15:32:12 <jar_> TimBL says, that there can be two fixedresources (simple IRs) that have the saame representation, yet are different
15:32:45 <jar_> (intentional identity, not extensional)
15:33:25 <jar_> two blank sheets of paper...
15:34:46 <jar_> suppose Bob's doc and Mary's doc come from the same server, different URIs...
15:35:56 <jar_> nathan: That seems fair
15:36:37 <jar_> Suppose one IP address, multiple domain names resolving to same IP...
15:37:10 <jar_> these are different resources...
15:37:56 <jar_> If no host: then the requests would be identical
15:40:43 <jar_> URIs have distinct meaning
15:41:06 <jar__> jar__ has joined #awwsw
15:41:27 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:41:31 <Zakim> -DBooth
15:41:32 <Zakim> -jar
15:41:32 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
15:41:34 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, jar, [IPcaller]
15:41:35 <jar__> rrsagent, make logs public
15:41:41 <dbooth> Present: Jonathan Rees, Nathan, David Booth
15:41:47 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:41:55 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:41:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/01-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
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17:12:09 <dbooth> chair: Jonathan
17:12:15 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:12:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/01-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth