IRC log of css on 2011-02-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:48:54 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
16:48:54 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-css-irc
16:48:59 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:49:05 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:49:05 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
16:54:43 [gsnedders]: Zakim, what's the code?
16:54:43 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders
16:56:08 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:56:10 [Zakim]: +??P10
16:56:30 [glazou]: Zakim, ?P10 is me
16:56:30 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P10'
16:56:36 [glazou]: Zakim, P10 is me
16:56:36 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
16:56:46 [glazou]: Zakim, +??P10 is me
16:56:46 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+??P10'
16:56:48 [glazou]: grrr
16:57:15 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
16:57:31 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P10 is me
16:57:31 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
16:57:33 [glazou]: pff
16:57:47 [cesar]: cesar has joined #css
16:58:20 [Zakim]: + +44.131.208.aaaa
16:58:20 [Zakim]: - +44.131.208.aaaa
16:58:22 [Zakim]: + +44.131.208.aaaa
16:58:30 [gsnedders]: Zakim, aaaa is me
16:58:30 [Zakim]: +gsnedders; got it
16:58:34 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:58:37 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:58:53 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:58:59 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:59:04 [johnjan]: johnjan has joined #css
16:59:21 [Zakim]: + +1.408.636.aabb
16:59:24 [kojiishi]: kojiishi has joined #css
16:59:27 [smfr]: Zakim, aabb is me
16:59:27 [Zakim]: +smfr; got it
16:59:33 [smfr]: Zakim, you should know this
16:59:33 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'you should know this', smfr
16:59:36 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
16:59:48 [johnjan]: zakim, microsoft is johnjan
16:59:48 [Zakim]: sorry, johnjan, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
16:59:51 [smfr]: what's with the "see admin assistance" when I dial?
16:59:57 [Zakim]: + +1.415.920.aacc
17:00:12 [Zakim]: +dsinger
17:00:13 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:00:22 [johnjan]: zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:00:22 [Zakim]: +johnjan; got it
17:00:35 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
17:00:39 [glazou]: Zakim, mute dsinger_
17:00:39 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_
17:00:49 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:00:49 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
17:00:51 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
17:00:55 [arronei]: zakim, microsoft has me
17:00:55 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
17:01:23 [glazou]: np dsinger_
17:02:04 [glazou]: Zakim, who is on phone ?
17:02:04 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, glazou.
17:02:11 [glazou]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:11 [Zakim]: On the phone I see glazou, gsnedders, smfr, +1.415.920.aacc, dsinger (muted), johnjan, [Microsoft]
17:02:13 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has arronei
17:02:18 [dsinger_]: Zakim, who is quiet this morning?
17:02:18 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, dsinger_.
17:02:35 [glazou]: Zakim, aacc is fantasai
17:02:35 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
17:02:44 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:02:55 [Zakim]: + +34.60.940.aadd
17:03:12 [Zakim]: +dsinger
17:03:20 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
17:03:30 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_ has joined #css
17:03:31 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
17:03:31 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
17:03:32 [cesar]: Zakim, +aadd is me
17:03:32 [Zakim]: sorry, cesar, I do not recognize a party named '+aadd'
17:03:41 [Zakim]: +??P20
17:03:43 [glazou]: Zakim, aadd is cesar
17:03:43 [Zakim]: +cesar; got it
17:03:52 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:56 [kojiishi]: zakim, P20 is me
17:03:56 [Zakim]: sorry, kojiishi, I do not recognize a party named 'P20'
17:04:02 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??P20 is me
17:04:02 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
17:04:07 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:04:12 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
17:04:15 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
17:04:18 [dbaron]: Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
17:04:18 [Zakim]: +dbaron; got it
17:04:34 [Zakim]: + +1.650.214.aaee
17:04:36 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
17:04:39 [TabAtkins_]: zakim, aaee is me
17:04:39 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins_; got it
17:04:44 [Zakim]: +dsinger.a
17:04:45 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:04:52 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
17:04:56 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
17:04:56 [Zakim]: dsinger.a should now be muted
17:05:10 [Zakim]: -dsinger.a
17:05:51 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
17:05:58 [Zakim]: + +47.21.65.aaff
17:06:08 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
17:06:11 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:06:12 [dbaron]: Zakim, aaff is howcome
17:06:12 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
17:06:45 [TabAtkins_]: ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
17:07:00 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Three items are Variables, multicol algo, and CSS3 text.
17:07:06 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: Can we do a quick check on B&B?
17:07:10 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Yes, after 2.1 issues.
17:07:31 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: There are a few urls in the agenda with css 2.1 blockers
17:07:40 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Let's review the firs tone, with all the redness inside.
17:07:47 [fantasai]: http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_HTML&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=1
17:07:47 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
17:07:47 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/need-data
17:07:47 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/invalid
17:07:47 [Zakim]: +Bert
17:07:51 [szilles]: szilles has joined #css
17:07:56 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: I think these issues are mostly just awaiting fixes from implementors.
17:08:54 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_: These bugs are in Webkit's bug report, but I dunno what's been worked on.
17:09:23 [TabAtkins_]: smfr: I haven't been able to work on several. I know that [some involving intrinsic] are outstanding, but I'm not aware of issues for the others.
17:09:35 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: A lot of these are related to print, and we have only one impl passing for a lot of them.
17:09:38 [Zakim]: +dsinger
17:09:50 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
17:09:53 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
17:10:11 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: If print is blocking here, did ChrisL run any of them through Prince?
17:10:16 [TabAtkins_]: ChrisL: I've done a few of them, yes.
17:10:35 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: One problem is that you have to tweak some of the test for Prince, since it has problems with height:100% on <html>.
17:10:36 [fantasai]: For some thests that test pagination
17:10:36 [ChrisL]: what is the tweak?
17:10:45 [fantasai]: You need to remove height: 100% from the root element
17:10:52 [fantasai]: and change the divs' 50% to 11.25cm
17:11:09 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: That's still a valid test.
17:11:18 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: It just used 100%/50% so it would work for all page sizes.
17:11:18 [dsinger_]: S/thests/tests/
17:11:29 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:11:32 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: But Prince has trouble with height:100%, so the 50% height on div doesn't work.
17:11:40 [ChrisL]: ok so those tests are not explicitly testing height 100%
17:11:41 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: The 11.25cm does the same thing, assuming normal page size.
17:11:49 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: Like allowed-page-break-001a.
17:11:53 [Zakim]: +??P0
17:12:00 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
17:12:00 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
17:12:13 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: I don't htink we need to go through all of these, right? We already went through these at the mini-f2f.
17:12:34 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: We've already covered all of these, so they're no longer significantly blocking, right?
17:12:50 [dsinger_]: S/htink/think/
17:12:51 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: My question as a chair is *when* these will be addressed?
17:13:14 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: If you look at the blocking link, you see that most of the tests were fixed, and for the rest we're expecting impls.
17:13:42 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: [talk about specific tests and their status in impls]
17:14:35 [fantasai]: quotes-035
17:14:40 [fantasai]: replaced-intrinsic-ratio-001
17:14:43 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
17:14:45 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: Can you list the tests that Opera needs to pass?
17:14:45 [ChrisL]: http://test.csswg.org/harness/testcase?s=CSS21_HTML&c=quotes-035
17:14:47 [dbaron]: for details on quotes-035 and Opera: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2011Jan/0095.html
17:14:56 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: Look at the blocking list - it shows which ones Opera can fix.
17:15:14 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking#tests-needing-breakup-or-implementation
17:15:20 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: The open questions are at the bottom of the list.
17:15:40 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: The three at the bottom are ones we don't have a plan for.
17:15:52 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: They're passed by Prince, and seem to be correct, but don't have expected implementations anywhere else.
17:16:00 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: What about Antenna House?
17:16:05 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: No, they didn't pass.
17:16:19 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Can we expect implementations, or are they at-risk?
17:16:35 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: In orphans-004a, it's a parsing test. Should be straightforward to fix.
17:16:51 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: If Opera or IE9 fixes the parsing bug it would pass.
17:17:06 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I think Opera accepts numbers rather than integers, and IE9 accepts 0.
17:17:35 [Zakim]: + +1.650.766.aagg
17:17:39 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: So, Moz/Opera/IE, is there something you can do here?
17:17:40 [bradk]: Zakim, aagg is me
17:17:40 [Zakim]: +bradk; got it
17:17:51 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I'm taking notes here. It's hard to promise, but I'll do my best.
17:17:58 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: I'm taking a look at it right now.
17:18:17 [TabAtkins_]: dbaron: We'd have to implement orphans in the first place, so it's not just a parsing bug for us.
17:18:59 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: When I get a break from writing specs, I'll implement it.
17:19:17 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: That's the end of the list. Is there anything else about CSS 2.1?
17:19:29 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: There's the open issues list.
17:19:37 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1
17:20:17 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: There's like 4 that bert needs to edit, 4 that need proposals, and 4 that need testcases. 40 or so that have been edited and updated, but just need to be reviewed.
17:20:37 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: i sent an email hoping that they could get done before the telcon, but stuff was too busy.
17:20:47 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: So can we get promises to get these done this week?
17:21:06 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Bert, can you do your edits this week?
17:21:16 [TabAtkins_]: Bert: Haven't looked at them recently, but I assume so, yes.
17:21:24 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Reviews should be done offline.
17:21:28 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I can do those this week.
17:21:28 [ChrisL]: what is the list of tests needing reviews?
17:21:38 [fantasai]: ACTION: Bert to finish outstanding 2.1 edits
17:21:38 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: First that needs proposal is 181.
17:21:38 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-293 - Finish outstanding 2.1 edits [on Bert Bos - due 2011-02-16].
17:21:51 [fantasai]: ACTION: fantasai to review edits
17:21:51 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-294 - Review edits [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-02-16].
17:22:01 [TabAtkins_]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-181
17:22:14 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Elika, can you summarize?
17:24:37 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0010.html
17:24:44 [fantasai]: Seems there's a bunch of editorial suggestions
17:25:03 [fantasai]: the significant ones start at "Alternative construction for line box height calculation"
17:25:42 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I think the prose that adjusts the guide boxes (?) makes sense, and is probably less confusing to our current text.
17:26:05 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
17:26:12 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:26:27 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:26:33 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:26:33 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
17:27:11 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:27:32 [Zakim]: +??P0
17:27:37 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
17:27:37 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
17:28:04 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: My suggestion is that Bert looks this section over - it's in his focus area - and go through that email and make whatever edits seem good, then post a diff for review.
17:28:31 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-192
17:28:33 [TabAtkins_]: Bert: This won't happen this week, but maybe in time for next telcon.
17:28:53 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Anything about the testcase at the end of the email?
17:28:59 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: That might be an interesting example.
17:29:32 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
17:29:45 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_: 192 is mine. Sorry, I'll get it done this week and post to the list.
17:31:59 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_: I haven't gotten feedback on my 199 proposal yet. I'm not happy with it conceptually (positioned elements should generate an inline placeholder, which *should* make a linebox), but it matches implementations.
17:32:05 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
17:32:43 [TabAtkins_]: dbaron: Email me or him to get us to look at the proposal again.
17:32:44 [johnjan]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-c
17:33:52 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I guess I can write that text.
17:34:04 [TabAtkins_]: ACTION fantasai to write text for issue C.
17:34:04 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-295 - Write text for issue C. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-02-16].
17:34:36 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I need to update the issues list, so we may get a few more.
17:34:53 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: Will you have time to go through the issues list and find all the open ones?
17:35:11 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: Dunno. The date of my last review is at the top of that page. If anyone else is doing work, please update that date.
17:35:24 [TabAtkins_]: dbaron: It looks like there's a continuation on a separate issues list.
17:35:30 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: Yeah, I'm thinking I should merge the two.
17:35:35 [Zakim]: +SteveZ.a
17:35:40 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:36:00 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Next item. B&B.
17:36:16 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: So, what's the status?
17:36:35 [TabAtkins_]: Bert: I failed to get ???'s attention, so we didn't get a telcon.
17:36:44 [TabAtkins_]: Bert: I'm hoping to get another one this Friday so we can try again.
17:37:04 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Peter won't be available this friday. I *hope* to be so, but won't know for sure until noon thursday.
17:37:18 [Bert]: s/???/Ralph/
17:37:18 [fantasai]: s/???/Ralph/
17:37:27 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Next item on the agenda, CSS Variables.
17:37:56 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I'd like to request CSS3 Text because I'd like to get a draft out there, and I'd like to get a chance to discuss that.
17:38:04 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: I think there is at least one urgent point about variables, first.
17:38:19 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Variables are extremely visible to the public. Webdevs want it, they request it loudly.
17:38:31 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: We have to be extra careful with our communication here.
17:38:57 [fantasai]: glazou: A lot of people understood from your email, Tab, that "it's going to be implemented that way"
17:39:06 [fantasai]: glazou: And that's not good from WG perspective
17:39:15 [fantasai]: Tab: That wasn't what I meant. It's just an experimental implementation.
17:39:25 [fantasai]: glazou: I suggest you post a draft for discussion.
17:39:47 [fantasai]: glazou: Second point, Tab's proposal introduces $ for delimiting variables
17:40:02 [dbaron]: (Is $ easily available on keyboards around the world?)
17:40:03 [fantasai]: glazou: It changes a lot the way we introduce new idents inside CSS. So please review and comment.
17:40:23 [fantasai]: glazou: Taking comments on variables for next 5 minutes.
17:40:33 [fantasai]: Stevez: What I found confusing was, what is the token stream?
17:41:01 [fantasai]: Tab: The exact answer for what's a valid value of a variable is is a little in the air. Need a lot of work to make sure that's very clear.
17:41:15 [fantasai]: Tab: High-level answer is, something that's a value in CSS.
17:41:59 [fantasai]: fantasai: I think you want some number of component values up to a full property value
17:42:15 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Next topic. CSS3 text.
17:42:20 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: What's blocking an updated WD?
17:42:30 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I'm having some trouble hearing todya.
17:42:41 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/
17:42:47 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I expressed in an email that I'd like the GCPM functionality to move over without changes, and then have changes down afterwards.
17:42:50 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:43:01 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#hyphenation-resource
17:43:05 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: In particular, the @hyphenate-resource was added, when it was a 'hyphenate-resource' property in GCPM.
17:43:10 [Zakim]: +??P0
17:43:10 [glazou]: Zakim:
17:43:15 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
17:43:15 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
17:43:32 [fantasai]: howcome: both are in the draft right now. I would like one or the other.
17:43:39 [dsinger]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:43:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see gsnedders, smfr, fantasai, johnjan, [Microsoft], cesar, kojiishi, dbaron, [Microsoft.a], TabAtkins_, ChrisL, howcome, Bert, bradk, [Apple], SteveZ.a, glazou
17:43:43 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:43:43 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has arronei
17:44:05 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: We spent a lot of time on the property as a WG, and we had consensus.
17:44:24 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: In the moving process, I don't think we should say one or the other. We should say "this is what we have", and then add issues.
17:44:37 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: But I think putting them on equal footing deteriorates the quality of the draft.
17:44:54 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I would like to try and preserve what has been done, and hyphenate-resource has been discussed at length in the WG, been implemented, and is in use.
17:44:57 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
17:45:19 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I think the changes should come as a result of discussions, not as a result of moving.
17:45:38 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: The @-rule came as a result of discussion at the f2f, so I consider it my duty as an editor to include the proposal.
17:45:53 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I think it can be in the draft but not on equal footing, as I don't think we made that decision.
17:46:12 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: I don't understand you, howcome. It's a WD, not a CR. Everything can change.
17:46:24 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: In the ED that's fine, but in the WD we should try and preserve consensus.
17:46:50 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: The consensus may change in the end, that's fine. But by giving two proposals equal footing, it makes it less obvious what's going on.
17:47:02 [TabAtkins_]: szilles: Can you suggest wording that makes it not equal footing that elika can use?
17:47:15 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I can - I think we can call it an issue. That's what we've done before.
17:47:49 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: So you're suggetsing a note in the doc saying "Another proposal for this is an @-rule, etc."?
17:47:52 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: Yes.
17:47:54 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: That's fine by me.
17:48:21 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: It's not a question of grammar, it's a technical problem.
17:49:09 [TabAtkins_]: RESOLVED: Make @hyphenate-resource into an issue in CSS3 Text. AFter doing so, ready to publish.
17:49:28 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: You may want to add another issue, regarding the format of the hyphenate resource files.
17:49:32 [TabAtkins_]: smfr: Already an issue there.
17:51:23 [Zakim]: -gsnedders
17:51:40 [TabAtkins_]: [chatter about the format of hyphenation resources]
17:51:55 [glazou]: or fonts
17:51:57 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I think there's consensus to add an issue about the hyphenation resource format.
17:51:58 [dsinger]: having lots of formats, and making sites somehow supply the right format for the browser it has in hand, would be ... ugly...
17:52:53 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: I don't know if we have time for multicol algos this week. I'll put it in second position, after css2.1 issues.
17:52:56 [Zakim]: +Bert.a
17:53:00 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: Can we get Alex to call in?
17:53:06 [TabAtkins_]: johnjan: I can get him to call in.
17:53:13 [fantasai]: file:///home/fantasai/w3c/csswg/css3-text/Overview.html#hyphenation-resource
17:53:40 [Zakim]: -dbaron
17:54:25 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#hyphenation-resource
17:54:52 [TabAtkins_]: sylvaing: In that branch, the more columns you squeeze in, the less content you get.
17:55:15 [TabAtkins_]: sylvaing: I see the goal is to make more columns and thus more content, but in practice it reduces the amount of content, due to pushing in a new column gap.
17:55:40 [TabAtkins_]: sylvaing: So I suggest looking at the ratio of whitespace to content after each change, and see what the right answer is.
17:56:08 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I know there's some weird stuff, but the aim is to make things more stable. Previous we went from 3->2->1 columns over the space of two pixels.
17:56:31 [TabAtkins_]: sylvaing: For me the real scenario is people snapping their window to half of the screen in W7 and suddenly the content area is shrunk in half.
17:56:37 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:56:55 [TabAtkins_]: sylvaing: In those scenarios it's better for the user if we can make less columns and thus less column gap.
17:57:18 [TabAtkins_]: sylvaing: My feel is that you were trying to fit in more columns in the assumption that you get more content, which isn't necessarily true.
17:57:45 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: Alex had a suggestion that we go straight to 1 col when we hit that. Another is that columns get stuck there, and designers learn to not make wide columns.
17:58:05 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I don't think it's necessarily a huge issue.
17:58:14 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Table the rest of the discussion for next week.
17:58:18 [TabAtkins_]: szilles: +1 for what sylvain is saying.
17:58:28 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:58:32 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I made the changes to the draft. Does howcome find them satisfactory?
17:58:37 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#hyphenation-resource
17:58:39 [glazou]: hold on !
17:58:59 [Zakim]: +??P0
17:59:07 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: That's acceptable to me.
17:59:15 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Is the edit only the redness on the paragraph?
17:59:27 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: That, and I put the explanation of the issue to the top of the definition.
18:00:07 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I'd like to see "Issue" in there.
18:00:14 [TabAtkins_]: fantasai: I can put "Issue: " there.
18:00:19 [TabAtkins_]: RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Text as WD.
18:00:46 [TabAtkins_]: howcome: I'd like to hear more proposals on the multicol thread.
18:00:48 [Zakim]: -SteveZ.a
18:00:51 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
18:00:52 [Zakim]: -johnjan
18:00:53 [Zakim]: -howcome
18:00:54 [Zakim]: -smfr
18:00:54 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:00:55 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:00:55 [Zakim]: -??P0
18:00:56 [Bert]: (Isn't the issue just that there is no minimum column width?)
18:00:57 [Zakim]: -bradk
18:00:58 [fantasai]: whew
18:00:58 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
18:01:00 [Zakim]: -TabAtkins_
18:01:03 [Zakim]: -Bert.a
18:01:07 [Zakim]: -fantasai
18:01:29 [TabAtkins_]: Bert: Propose a property!
18:01:30 [glazou]: eheh
18:01:53 [Zakim]: -cesar
18:01:54 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:01:55 [Zakim]: Attendees were glazou, +44.131.208.aaaa, gsnedders, dsinger, +1.408.636.aabb, smfr, +1.415.920.aacc, johnjan, arronei, fantasai, +34.60.940.aadd, cesar, kojiishi, [Microsoft],
18:01:57 [TabAtkins_]: glazou: Btw, got our rooms in Tokyo all reserved and ready.
18:01:58 [Zakim]: ... dbaron, +1.650.214.aaee, ChrisL, TabAtkins_, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, Bert, SteveZ, +1.650.766.aagg, bradk
18:01:58 [glazou]: TabAtkins_: howcome hates even more new properties than he hates last minute changes ;-)
18:01:59 [Bert]: No, I didn't mean a property. I meant in the algo.
18:02:11 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
18:02:21 [TabAtkins_]: Bert: Oh, just like "no matter what, don't shrink columns to less than 5ems wide?
18:02:43 [Bert]: Yes, something like that.
18:03:08 [Bert]: But the actual amount is hard to define, maybe just some rule of thumb.
18:05:32 [Bert]: Maybe the minimum is 10% of the gap width. I have no typographic reason for that, but it makes the formula easy. :-)
18:08:59 [TabAtkins]: Bert: If the goal is to preserve content readability in degenerate situations, I don't think a % of the gap width is useful.
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18:10:59 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: update to css3-images checked in, finally; notes in the cvs log
18:12:28 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Cool, will check it out now.
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18:24:29 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: The default object size in various properties shoudln't be an example, as it's normative text.
18:24:43 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: it shouldn't be normative text because it should be defined by those properties
18:25:09 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: if a property doesn't define its default object size, it's an error in that spec
18:25:14 [TabAtkins]: Okay, then I'll put an issue note in the example that these will be defined by the individual properties.
18:26:02 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: having css3-images define them would be like having a library function that defines its arguments depending on who called it, instead of having the callers send in their arguments :)
18:26:29 [TabAtkins]: Hey, clean OO design is a controversial subject. ^_^
18:27:06 [fantasai]: ohyeah, I forgot to add to the cvs comment...
18:27:12 [fantasai]: I'm not sure what to do about the heading levels
18:27:23 [fantasai]: I stuck them in as h4 no-num
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18:27:30 [TabAtkins]: Why is that an issue?
18:27:31 [fantasai]: but I think that whole section needs some consideration on that point
18:27:46 [TabAtkins]: I agree that it needs some changing. I think we should split out the sizing section into a new top-level section.
18:28:01 [fantasai]: or split off the property defs into their own section
18:28:20 [TabAtkins]: Yeah, same diff. Section 6 just needs to be split, period.
18:28:25 [fantasai]: yeah
18:28:30 [fantasai]: btw
18:28:39 [fantasai]: the reason I gave up on using <div>s to mark sections in CSS specs
18:29:02 [fantasai]: is because sections change levels and move around a fair bit
18:29:02 [TabAtkins]: I gave up on them for Lists, and would like to go back and give up on them for this and Flexbox too.
18:29:09 [fantasai]: yeah
18:29:12 [fantasai]: let's do it
18:29:17 [TabAtkins]: kk, I'll do the reformat.
18:29:20 [fantasai]: kk :)
18:29:26 [fantasai]: ^_^
18:30:00 [fantasai]: I think the image-* sections should go in their own top-level
18:30:13 [fantasai]: object-fit / object-position are pretty closely related to everything else going on here
18:30:16 [TabAtkins]: btw, do you know how to make CVS stop asking for the password on every operation?
18:30:17 [fantasai]: so should probably stay
18:30:24 [fantasai]: voodoo magic
18:31:31 [fantasai]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_SSH_to_connect_to_CVS#Avoiding_passphrase_requests
18:31:42 [TabAtkins]: Btw, the one benefit I did get from using indentation was that it made it easier to quickly scroll through the source. In Lists and Flexbox I'm using a  line between sections to visually mark section breaks.
18:31:52 [fantasai]: Oh, totally understand that.
18:31:57 [fantasai]: what I did in css3-writing-modes
18:32:03 [fantasai]: is to indent all text one level
18:32:08 [fantasai]: *except* the headings
18:32:10 [fantasai]: which I format as
18:32:21 [fantasai]: <h4 id="foobar">
18:32:24 [fantasai]: Title of Section
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18:32:35 [fantasai]: er, with the </h4> at the end of Title of Section
18:32:43 [fantasai]: Which puts the title of the section right at the left margin
18:32:47 [TabAtkins]: So on two lines? Interesting.
18:33:34 [fantasai]: <h2 id="vertical-intro">
18:33:34 [fantasai]: Introduction to Vertical Text</h2>
18:33:35 [fantasai]: <p>In addition to extensions to CSS2.1
18:33:36 [fantasai]: er
18:33:38 [fantasai]: <h2 id="vertical-intro">
18:33:41 [fantasai]: Introduction to Vertical Text</h2>
18:33:43 [fantasai]: <p>In addition to extensions to CSS2.1
18:34:03 [fantasai]: Since *everything* is indented, other than the header,
18:34:11 [fantasai]: it's easy to scan for the sections
18:34:13 [TabAtkins]: I've come to appreciate the benefit of having most of my text not need indentation when I linewrap, so I think I'll stick with mine, but that sounds good too.
18:34:54 [fantasai]: and since the header is at the left margin, it's easy to see which section you're at
18:35:40 [fantasai]: this is my compromise between reorg-ability and readability :)
18:36:08 [TabAtkins]: Yeah, I'm trying to change my practices to make reorganization less diff-painful.
18:36:09 [fantasai]: I do indent for any nesting beyond the sectioning, of course
18:38:52 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: wrt linewrapping... I guess you could un-indent the paragraph when you're editing, and indent it when you're done?
18:39:05 [fantasai]: presumably indenting/unindenting has keyboard shortcuts in your editor
18:39:25 [fantasai]: I tend not to mind one level of indentation; it's not too bothersome
18:39:45 [fantasai]: especially since you're using tabs in css3-images :)
18:40:47 [TabAtkins]: Tabs are the best. I don't understand everyone's attachment to spaces. >_<
18:41:05 [TabAtkins]: Hixie used spaces in Lists, and as a result the indentation was inconsistent all over.
18:41:24 [fantasai]: for me, it's mainly because of Mozilla's coding guidelines :)
18:42:14 [TabAtkins]: Yeah, we use spaces for indenting in webkit code.
18:42:26 [TabAtkins]: I forget whether it's 2 or 4 spaces. I think it varies between webkit and google style.
18:42:40 [fantasai]: probably because most people who use tabs don't understand how to use them effectively for indentation
18:42:46 [fantasai]: it defaults to 8 spaces, which is absurd
18:43:23 [TabAtkins]: True fact.
18:43:23 [plinss]: tab expansion is different in a number of different tools...
18:43:40 [TabAtkins]: If by "expansion" you mean "visual width of tabs", *that's the point*.
18:43:43 [plinss]: if you mix tabs and spaces, you'll eventually find your file with the formatting all messed up
18:43:50 [TabAtkins]: Yup, so don't. ^_^
18:43:58 [plinss]: if you use only tabs or only spaces you're ok
18:44:02 [TabAtkins]: Right.
18:44:03 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: btw, if you think you can stand one level of indentation, I'd prefer to do that in css3-images
18:44:18 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: You mean your approach?
18:44:20 [fantasai]: yeah
18:44:39 [TabAtkins]: Let me finish this no-indent reformat, then I'll quickly switch to your method and see how it looks.
18:44:44 [fantasai]: kk :)
18:45:00 [TabAtkins]: I just want to find a single readable style I can use everywhere. If we can match our styles, all the better, because then we won't fight when editting together.
18:45:50 [TabAtkins]: Plus then we can present a united front and create a required style guideline doc.
18:46:02 [fantasai]: um
18:46:12 [fantasai]: I don't think anyone cares about the indentation of our spec source code :)
18:46:25 [fantasai]: except the persons editing those particular specs
18:46:52 [TabAtkins]: Exactly. And when I try to edit a spec that someone else used bad indentation on, it makes me crazy.
18:47:07 [fantasai]: then fix it and set a good example
18:49:43 [TabAtkins]: Haha, a bit late for that.
18:50:37 [fantasai]: it's still my break-fast!
18:50:41 [fantasai]: it's even still morning
18:58:16 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Is there a reason you used a character reference rather than the character itself in the "CSS<=>Object Negation" heading?
19:01:50 [fantasai]: um
19:01:52 [fantasai]: no, actually
19:02:15 [TabAtkins]: Kk, just checking before I replaced.
19:03:05 [TabAtkins]: Oh. Wow. What? My desktops just transposed vertically.
19:03:17 [TabAtkins]: 1-3 moved to the bottom row, and 4-6 moved to the top row. Wtf?
19:03:51 [fantasai]: you must've hit the flip shortcut
19:04:22 [TabAtkins]: ...
19:04:27 [TabAtkins]: There's a shortcut for flipping?
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19:04:37 [fantasai]: well, I don't know about *your* window manager
19:04:42 [fantasai]: but mine has that option
19:04:49 [TabAtkins]: This is silly.
19:05:05 [fantasai]: granted mine does it with tiles, not desktops
19:27:28 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: btw, check in your indentation changes as a whitespace-only checkin before you go around fixing other stuff
19:27:42 [TabAtkins]: Yeah, definitely.
19:27:57 [TabAtkins]: I'm nearly done adjusting to your requested indentation, and I think I like it.
19:28:00 [fantasai]: cool
19:28:01 [fantasai]: :)
19:29:06 [TabAtkins]: Yeah, combined with my , it's very readable.
19:29:13 [TabAtkins]: I think better than either of them alone.
19:29:33 [TabAtkins]: Now, meeting time to talk about our plans to actually support pagination!
19:29:46 [fantasai]: eh?
19:33:15 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_ has joined #css
19:46:55 [fantasai]: and committed itself checking the tracker every Thursday or something
19:47:18 [fantasai]: kindof like patch review requests
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