IRC log of webapps on 2010-11-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc

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rrsagent, make log Public

08:06:36 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

08:06:41 [ArtB]

Chair: ArtB

08:06:48 [ArtB]

Meeting: WebApps F2F meeting

08:06:53 [ArtB]

Date: 1 November 2010

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08:08:26 [adrianba]

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08:08:29 [ArtB]

Topic: WebIDL and TC39

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08:09:00 [ArtB]

Present: Adrian, Sam, Maciej, PLH, Bryan, DaveR, AnnB, AdamB

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08:13:33 [ArtB]

Adrian: part of the next TC39 meeting (in ~2week) will include discussions with some people in WebApps

08:13:59 [ArtB]

... there is a perception that the other group is not interested in working together

08:14:16 [ArtB]

... for example TC39 people seem to think W3C people is not interested in working with them

08:14:33 [ArtB]

... and within WebApps, there seems to some disinterest in working with TC39

08:14:51 [ArtB]

... there are some tactical issues in the WebIDL spec that need to be resolved

08:14:59 [ArtB]

... see f.ex. public-script-coord

08:15:11 [ArtB]

... Need to talk about how to work together at a Strategic level

08:15:21 [ArtB]

... We need to prioritize the work in both groups

08:15:26 [ArtB]

... so there is better coordination

08:15:47 [ArtB]

... For instance adding features need to be discussed

08:16:08 [ArtB]

... The 2 groups have different timelines and there is a gap there that needs to be filled

08:16:18 [ArtB]

... WebIDL is the key spec that has interest from both sides

08:16:38 [ArtB]

... Microsoft people in TC39 have some issues with the structure of WebIDL spec

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08:16:50 [ArtB]

... Some parts of WebIDL may want to be deprecated

08:17:02 [ArtB]

... f.ex. we don't want some old patterns continued

08:17:16 [ArtB]

... Think we are talking passed each other a bit

08:17:20 [plh]

q+

08:17:42 [ArtB]

... PLH has been involved in conversations with TC39 Chair

08:18:06 [ArtB]

PLH: when I asked 6 mos ago if any WG wants to meet with TC39, no one responded

08:18:16 [ArtB]

... Cam will be at TC39 meeting in two weeks

08:18:25 [ArtB]

... Are there any other specs TC39 cares about?

08:18:37 [ArtB]

Adrian: WebIDl is certainly the key spec

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08:18:44 [ArtB]

... but there are some other specs

08:18:58 [anne]

wait what, there's a WebApps WG meeting after all?

08:19:19 [ArtB]

... The TC heard there were no other specs

08:19:30 [ArtB]

... I don't think there is fault or blame here

08:19:45 [ArtB]

... I just think there is a need for closer collaboration

08:19:55 [anne]

mjs, k thanks

08:20:05 [ArtB]

... Think there should be a more formal relationship

08:20:18 [ArtB]

... We all have the responsibility to raise the issues

08:21:01 [ArtB]

... As ES5 progresses, and more and more APIs @ W3C are written, I think there will be more collaboration that will be needed

08:21:15 [ArtB]

... We must make sure ES and W3C APIs work well together

08:21:36 [ArtB]

... Don't want a bunch of ad hoc APIS

08:21:50 [ArtB]

... as that may create some interop probs

08:22:11 [ArtB]

... Not sure how we fix the perception that neither group is interested in working with the other

08:22:24 [adam]

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08:22:33 [ArtB]

Maciej: one thing we can do is to have some coord calls

08:22:50 [ArtB]

... can also have someone participate in both groups

08:22:58 [ArtB]

... and make sure they are talking to both groups

08:23:17 [ArtB]

... There can be issues where two people from the same company may disagree

08:23:36 [ArtB]

PLH: so far, WebIDL is the key spec

08:23:59 [ArtB]

... Good news there is that Cam is back and he will be attending TC39 meeting at Apple in 2 weeks

08:24:17 [ArtB]

... We do meet every couple of months with IETF with a specific agenda

08:24:33 [ArtB]

... But if there is a need to talk about a specific issue, then that's different

08:24:47 [ArtB]

Adrian: the joint meeting is in a couple of weeks

08:25:12 [ArtB]

PLH: do we need to send a W3C staff member to the TC39 meeting?

08:25:21 [ArtB]

Adrian: no, I don't think that is necessary

08:25:40 [ArtB]

... but I think the meeting should include a discussion about liaisions and next steps

08:25:48 [ArtB]

PLH: I can attend remotely

08:25:54 [ArtB]

... will their be a phone?

08:26:02 [ArtB]

Maciej: yes, I think that can be arranged

08:26:21 [ArtB]

AB: that sounds like a good first step

08:26:28 [ArtB]

... Is Chaals attending

08:27:00 [ArtB]

AB: has WebApps been invited to the meeting?

08:27:15 [ArtB]

Adrian: yes, I think WebApps was invited to the coordination part of the meeting

08:27:52 [ArtB]

PLH: I will send e-mail John re the Nov meeting

08:28:19 [ArtB]

Adrian: Maciej forwarded a related email to the list on Oct 11

08:28:27 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

08:28:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB

08:28:27 [adrianba]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0073.html

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08:32:25 [dsr]

scribe: dsr

08:33:07 [dsr]

Art leaves for meeting with Protocols and Formats WG

08:35:20 [dsr]

We review the list of specs to see which ones people are interested in discussing.

08:38:40 [dsr]

The topics with the most interest are: CORS (1), Programmable Cache (2), Selectors API (2), We Sockets (4), Web Storage (1), Web Workers(3), XBL (2).

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08:40:58 [dsr]

Topic: Web Sockets

08:41:40 [dsr]

Main question is to update the API spec in line with the progress of work on the protocol spec.

08:42:34 [dsr]

[ we plan to discuss web sockets until the morning coffee break]

08:43:23 [dsr]

There is now a method to support a clean shutdown of the connection and we could consider a way to indicate at the API level whether the connection closed cleanly or not.

08:43:53 [dsr]

Another question is whether to support different data types other than UTF-8 strings

08:44:22 [dsr]

The emerging standard for small amounts of data is array buffer.

08:44:49 [dsr]

Hixie has added something related to connection shutdown.

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08:45:58 [dsr]

The protocol is being developed in the IETF. If you are interested in implementing web sockets, recommend that you get involved with the IETF group.

08:46:39 [dsr]

Protocol issues fall into 2 categories: handshake and message framing.

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08:47:16 [dsr]

Framing - support for fragmentation and different kinds of encodings.

08:48:12 [dsr]

Handshake - key design issue is to ensure for security purposes that you can't attach/exploit HTTP servers.

08:48:29 [dsr]

s/attach/attack/

08:49:49 [dsr]

Lots of email traffic, but plenty still to be resolved.

08:50:07 [dsr]

Implementations?

08:50:25 [dsr]

Microsoft demoed an implementation at last IETF meeting

08:51:19 [timeless_mbp]

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08:51:32 [dsr]

Hoping big protocol questions will be resolved in next few months.

08:54:15 [dsr]

[ IETF HyBy WG: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/HyBi ]

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08:55:47 [dsr]

PLH asks about status of Selectors API

08:56:44 [dsr]

Some questions relating to test suite

08:57:24 [dsr]

s/HyBy/HyBi/

08:57:26 [plh]

Anne: pb is with default for stringified for unidefined and null

08:57:37 [timeless_mbp]

s/uni/un/

08:58:43 [dsr]

Question on support for binary data for web sockets.

08:59:06 [dsr]

This is under consideration, possibly as array buffer or blob format

08:59:29 [dsr]

Anne: there may be support for specific streaming formats.

09:00:04 [dsr]

Any reason why people don't want to use RTSP?

09:01:12 [dsr]

Certainly, RTSP is a reasonable option. Streaming over HTTP is also quite active.

09:01:49 [dsr]

Firewalls can tilt the balance in favor of HTTP.

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09:02:33 [dsr]

What about SIP?

09:03:02 [dsr]

No one has hooked SIP to the browser as yet. But one issue is the size of the specs for SIP.

09:04:03 [adrianba]

RRSAgent, make minutes

09:04:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html adrianba

09:05:35 [timeless_mbp]

Present+ timeless

09:06:04 [wonsuk]

Present+ Wonsuk Lee

09:06:30 [timeless_mbp]

[STUN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Traversal_Utilities_for_NAT]

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09:06:42 [eliot]

present+ Eliot

09:06:55 [adam]

Present+ AdamB

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09:07:22 [dsr]

Any interest in using web sockets peer to peer? This would involve some API/protocol support for setting up the connection.

09:07:51 [dsr]

Yes, hixie has specified some steps, but Anne notes that the protocol part is left blank.

09:08:09 [dsr]

This could involve IETF standards e.g. STUN and TURN.

09:08:21 [MikeSmith]

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09:09:32 [dsr]

The discover process could involve a web server where users register for a session.

09:09:41 [dsr]

s/discover/discovery/

09:09:45 [timeless_mbp]

[ WebSockets over UDP http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg21749.html ]

09:10:01 [dsr]

UDP is of interest for gaming

09:10:05 [timeless_mbp]

s/Wonsuk Lee/WonsukLee/

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09:11:09 [timeless_mbp]

[ SCTP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol ]

09:11:11 [dsr]

SCTP might be worth looking at.

09:12:03 [dsr]

But runs into problems with firewalling

09:12:34 [shepazu]

there is no WebApps WG meeting today, right?

09:13:38 [dsr]

WonSuk: what is the relationship between websockets and CORS?

09:14:13 [dsr]

Anne: they are unrelated, but you could say they are connected via the same origin check

09:15:35 [dsr]

Any open source web sockets implementations as yet?

09:15:45 [dsr]

Python, Java and a few others.

09:16:17 [timeless_mbp]

[ some impls: http://websox.org/ ]

09:16:20 [dsr]

DSR thinking about live editing via websockets.

09:17:05 [dsr]

Anne: definite advantage for anything realtime.

09:18:06 [adam]

java impl - http://www.eclipse.org/jetty/ Jetty provides an Web server and http://java.sun.com/javaee/5/docs/api/javax/servlet/package-summary.html container, plus support for Web Sockets,

09:18:38 [dsr]

Doug wanders in ...

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rrsagent, make minutes

09:21:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr

09:22:49 [dsr]

Doug: any interest in talking about touch and table related APIs?

09:24:18 [dsr]

Yes, but let's wait for Art to come back after coffee

09:25:50 [dsr]

we break for coffee

09:25:51 [timeless_mbp]

Break For Coffee

09:27:35 [ArtB]

ACTION: barstow P&C spec: make it clear in the Abtract or Intro that P&C widgets != UI controls

09:27:36 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-593 - P&C spec: make it clear in the Abtract or Intro that P&C widgets != UI controls [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

09:34:22 [ArtB]

ACTION: caceres notify P&F WG when the P&C Conformance Checker is published

09:34:22 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-594 - Notify P&F WG when the P&C Conformance Checker is published [on Marcos Caceres - due 2010-11-08].

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10:00:15 [dsr]

n.b. http://yz.mit.edu/wp/web-sockets-tutorial-with-simple-python-server/

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10:08:43 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, make minutes

10:08:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow

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10:09:50 [bryan]

Present+ Bryan_Sullivan

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10:10:43 [dsr]

we resume after the coffee break

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10:11:26 [timeless_mbp]

Scribe: timeless_mbp

10:11:27 [timeless_mbp]

Topic: Introductions

10:11:52 [timeless_mbp]

Laslo G - Nokia

10:12:02 [timeless_mbp]

Yael A - Nokia

10:12:07 [timeless_mbp]

Olli P - Nokia

10:12:15 [timeless_mbp]

Ta - Sony

10:12:22 [timeless_mbp]

Henri Sivonen - Mozilla

10:12:26 [timeless_mbp]

s/Nokia/Mozilla/

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Brian S - AT&T

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10:12:51 [adam]

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10:12:53 [timeless_mbp]

Chung - China Unicom

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10:13:22 [zhang-chinaunicom]

zhang chengyan from chinaunicom

10:13:32 [timeless_mbp]

s/Chung/Zhang Chengyan/

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10:13:48 [bryan]

s/Brian S - AT&T/Bryan Sullivan, AT&T

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10:14:12 [wuj]

wujing from chinaunicom

10:14:43 [junliao]

I am here

10:14:51 [timeless_mbp]

Jun Liao - China Unicom

10:14:53 [Johnson]

johnson from Nokia

10:15:09 [timeless_mbp]

Elena R - Institute Telecom

10:15:16 [timeless_mbp]

s/com/com Paris/

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10:15:28 [timeless_mbp]

Ronsong Lee - ETRI Korea

10:15:36 [adrianba]

Adrian Bateman from Microsoft

10:15:42 [dsr]

s/Ronsong/WonSuk/

10:15:45 [eliot]

Eliot Graff from Microsoft

10:15:50 [timeless_mbp]

Josh Soref - Nokia

10:15:52 [wonsuk]

s/Ronsong Lee/Wonsuk Lee/

10:15:55 [BoChen]

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10:15:55 [anne]

Anne van Kesteren - Opera

10:16:08 [timeless_mbp]

Mike Smith - W3C

10:16:09 [adam]

Adam Boyet from Boeing

10:16:15 [weinig]

Sam Weinig - Apple

10:16:18 [timeless_mbp]

Doug S - W3C

10:16:21 [dsr]

Dave Raggett, W3C

10:16:25 [mjs]

Maciej Stachowiak - Apple

10:16:38 [BoChen]

Bo Chen for ChinaUnicom

10:16:41 [timeless_mbp]

SJ Lee - LG Electronics

10:16:50 [anne]

(who is the third from Apple who just got in?)

10:16:59 [weinig]

anne: Geoffrey Garen

10:17:03 [anne]

aaah

10:17:03 [timeless_mbp]

Han Chu Li - LG Electronics

10:17:09 [anne]

never met

10:17:16 [timeless_mbp]

Yung Yu Chan - LG Electronics (observer)

10:17:25 [timeless_mbp]

Hiro I - Toshiba

10:17:42 [timeless_mbp]

Tai S - Jig.jp

10:18:01 [timeless_mbp]

Scribe: dsr

10:18:11 [timeless_mbp]

ScribeNick: dsr

10:18:32 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

10:18:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith

10:18:39 [timeless_mbp]

Geoffrey Garen - Apple

10:18:54 [dsr]

Topic: Web Workers

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10:19:27 [dsr]

Art: Hixie's HTML5 workload is slowing down progress on the web workers spec

10:19:57 [dsr]

Ian want's to move the spec to last call status

10:21:02 [dsr]

Art: we need to process all the last cal comments and if anyone wants to volunteer to help with that, feel free to come forward.

10:21:15 [timeless_mbp]

s/cal/call/

10:21:21 [dsr]

Where can we find the bug list?

10:21:33 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow Web Workers: add link to bug database to the PubStatus page

10:21:34 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-595 - Web Workers: add link to bug database to the PubStatus page [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:21:36 [dsr]

Anne: don't know of any outstanding issues

10:22:04 [yael]

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10:22:36 [dsr]

if there have been multiple implementations and few comments, that's usually a good sign.

10:22:52 [dsr]

We think Firefox and Opera have implementations.

10:23:06 [dsr]

Anne: we are working on getting out a test suite

10:23:36 [yongil_jang]

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10:23:41 [dsr]

Do we need an implementation report to get to Last Call.

10:23:50 [dsr]

No that's needed to exit CR

10:24:18 [dsr]

Art repeats his request for volunteers.

10:24:22 [Peter]

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10:24:32 [dsr]

Do we have any thoughts on good candidates for the work?

10:25:42 [dsr]

Doug asks if any of the actual implementors are in the room? [No]

10:25:48 [dsr]

companies yes

10:27:01 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow Web Workers: work with Team to find resource(s) to review LC comments and plan for Candidate

10:27:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-596 - Web Workers: work with Team to find resource(s) to review LC comments and plan for Candidate [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:27:41 [dsr]

We agree on value of shared test suite, but once a spec reaches a certain level of stability, energy dries up

10:27:52 [timeless_mbp]

… and resources get reallocated

10:28:37 [zhang-chinaunicom]

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10:28:47 [dsr]

Mike: are there any big applications of web workers out there?

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10:30:15 [dsr]

Doug: want to avoid diverging implementations due to lack of shared test suite.

10:30:45 [dsr]

Implementors keen to see feedback from application developers

10:31:13 [smaug_]

hmm, there is no https for www.w3.org/Bugs :/

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10:31:23 [dsr]

Maciej: I am interested to see progress on web messaging

10:31:30 [timeless_mbp]

smaug_: file a bug ;-)

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10:32:22 [dsr]

Anne: I will follow up on the test suites work within Opera.

10:32:46 [dsr]

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus

10:33:14 [dsr]

for list of specs which are pending availability of time from editor

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10:33:51 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow PubStatus update Plans for Workers/Storage/Event-source that HTML5 Editor workload is the block and ask for volunteers

10:33:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-597 - PubStatus update Plans for Workers/Storage/Event-source that HTML5 Editor workload is the block and ask for volunteers [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:34:35 [dsr]

Art: do we definitely want web messaging split out of HTML5?

10:35:08 [dsr]

Maciej: publishing web messaging as a first WD is the next step.

10:35:28 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Messaging

10:35:29 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-598 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Messaging [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:35:55 [dsr]

Anne: could we make the first WD a Last Call?

10:36:20 [dsr]

No, but preference is to first do regular WD for 4 weeks before moving to Last Call

10:36:53 [dsr]

Adrian will find someone from Microsoft to help with this, and may be even to contribute some tests.

10:37:36 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

10:37:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith

10:37:42 [dsr]

Topic: Programmable Cache

10:38:12 [dsr]

see http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/

10:38:12 [timeless_mbp]

[ data cache: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-DataCache-20091029/ ]

10:38:16 [Marcos]

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10:38:54 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow ask Nikunj to report the status and plans of Programmable Cache to public-webapps

10:38:54 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-599 - Ask Nikunj to report the status and plans of Programmable Cache to public-webapps [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:39:08 [dsr]

What is the timeline for this work item?

10:39:46 [dsr]

The current editor has changed companies, so we are looking for a new editor.

10:40:04 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow ask Oracle about their level of interest in Programmable Cache

10:40:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-600 - Ask Oracle about their level of interest in Programmable Cache [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:40:06 [dsr]

Woksuk: I am interested in helping with this.

10:40:18 [dsr]

s/Woksuk/Wonsuk/

10:41:13 [dsr]

Adrian: looking for better alignment between the specs for programmable cache and html5 application cache.

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10:41:22 [MikeSmith]

thread from July 2009:

10:41:24 [MikeSmith]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/thread.html#msg260

10:41:45 [dsr]

Anne: spec last updated Jan 2010

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10:43:01 [dsr]

Doug: do we need to do a use case and requirements analysis, and to look at extending the application cache, is it sufficiently flexible?

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10:43:16 [iga]

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10:43:25 [dsr]

Art: at this point better to work on this in separate spec rather than merging them.

10:44:06 [dsr]

Maciej: app cache comes from work in Google Gears, original use cases still exist.

10:45:32 [dsr]

Adrian: moving this forward depends on people's interest in driving it

10:46:50 [dsr]

Perhaps we need to ask for feedback on limitations of the app cache?

10:47:49 [MikeSmith]

Mark Nottingham message about problems with the programmable cache api - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0278.html

10:47:56 [dsr]

Doug: would be useful to have an organizational memory for all this

10:48:25 [MikeSmith]

q?

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10:48:43 [dsr]

Adrian: we would still need to find someone to work on use cases and requirements - could be a consumer not a vendor

10:49:18 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow ask public-webapps about creating Use Cases and requirements of Program App Caches versus HTML5 App Cache

10:49:18 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-601 - Ask public-webapps about creating Use Cases and requirements of Program App Caches versus HTML5 App Cache [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:49:22 [dsr]

Facebook as a candidate?

10:50:50 [timeless_mbp]

MikeSmith: julian reschke from IETF HTTP.next

10:51:23 [timeless_mbp]

MikeSmith: Mark Nottingham

10:52:17 [shepazu]

Action: Barstow to contact julian reschke and Mark Nottingham about Data Cache

10:52:18 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-602 - Contact julian reschke and Mark Nottingham about Data Cache [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

10:53:12 [dsr]

Topic: Selectors API

10:54:43 [dsr]

Discussion on WebIDL default as key to progressing Selectors spec

10:55:39 [dsr]

Maciej: some implementations may need to change

10:56:02 [dsr]

Adrian: would that block PR?

10:56:48 [dsr]

we want to straighten this out in short order.

10:57:33 [dsr]

Maciej: keen to sort out Level 2 of the Selectors API

10:58:54 [dsr]

Anne discusses some of the details of what may be dropped

11:00:04 [mjs]

hi Lachy!

11:00:07 [Lachy]

hi

11:00:12 [anne]

Lachy, when are you making the edits you were planning on making?

11:00:14 [Kai]

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11:00:20 [mjs]

we were just talking about Selectors API a bit

11:00:29 [mjs]

was wondering when Level 2 will settle down

11:01:27 [Lachy]

I don't know when I'll be doing it, cause it depends on when I get allocated to a relevant task, but at this stage, I think I'm going to drop the queryScopedSelector methods, as they're a bit of a mess.

11:01:35 [Lachy]

the rest of it should be relatively stable.

11:01:58 [Lachy]

so :scope will stay, matchesSelector will stay.

11:02:24 [dsr]

Art: let's take the rest of the selector's discussion to the list. next topic XBL2

11:02:32 [dsr]

Topic: XBL2

11:03:38 [dsr]

Some discussion has occurred on possibility of mapping XBL2 from XML to JSON.

11:04:26 [helena]

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11:04:31 [dsr]

Could be some syntactic sugar on top of DOM APIs to make some of the use cases simpler, but we are blocked on lack of implementations for XBL2

11:05:21 [dsr]

Anne: manifest attribute in place of processing instructions

11:05:23 [MikeSmith]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JulSep/0912.html related message from Tab in September

11:05:40 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

11:05:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith

11:06:31 [timeless_mbp]

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11:06:35 [dsr]

Lots of experience in using JavaScript for binding, and desire for common solution, but there are complications

11:06:59 [junliao]

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11:08:12 [dsr]

XBL2 is awaiting implementation feedback.

11:08:44 [dsr]

Hixie did provide a revised spec, but there isn't agreement on the changes.

11:09:00 [Hyeonsoo]

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11:09:01 [Barstow]

Olli: I don't agree with the recent changes Hixie made to XBL

11:09:09 [Barstow]

... think it limits the scope too much

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11:10:30 [dsr]

We plan to resume at 1:30

11:10:39 [dsr]

rrsagent, make minutes

11:10:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr

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11:11:17 [IceGuest_77]

quit

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12:40:02 [dsr]

we drift back from lunch

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12:48:54 [dsr]

Art restarts the meeting

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12:49:48 [anne]

pointer to agenda for tomorrow?

12:50:03 [dsr]

Art ran in to the TAG folks in the corridor and some of them are able to drop in if we need them.

12:50:04 [anne]

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2010

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12:51:42 [dsr]

Doug: some I18N people would like to talk to us about a few topics tomorrow, and I would like to discuss those topics briefly today.

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12:52:03 [dsr]

Anne: I want to talk about modularization of DOM3 events.

12:52:12 [dsr]

Art: let's take that tomorrow.

12:52:18 [aizu_]

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12:53:23 [dsr]

Use of XHR in widgets and specific meaning of origin.

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12:54:34 [dsr]

Art: we should defer CORS and web storage until the TAG folks are ready.

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12:55:27 [Barstow]

here is DAP's Pub status page: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/

12:55:44 [dsr]

Topic: Clipboard

12:55:51 [Kai]

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12:56:44 [dsr]

Chaals worked in Clipboard initially, followed by Hixie.

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12:58:01 [dsr]

Anne: my colleague (Halverd?) has been studying behavior across browsers.

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12:58:11 [anne]

"Hallvord R. M. Steen" <hallvord@opera.com>

12:58:39 [timeless_mbp]

s/Halverd/Hallvord/

12:59:00 [dsr]

Anne: we can safely say that Chaals has stopped working on the Clipboard spec.

12:59:23 [dsr]

Doug: I was an editor and stopped working on it when I saw Hixie picking it up in HTML5.

13:00:12 [dsr]

Anne: we may have an editor for copy and paste. Hixie has said this won't be part of the HTML5 spec,

13:00:16 [shepazu]

Hallvord Steen

13:00:33 [Barstow]

AB: "Editor is not working on this spec. We may have an Editor for the copy-and-paste part."

13:00:52 [dsr]

(for the pub status table)

13:01:35 [dsr]

Doug: I volunteer to update the draft to point to relevant work elsewhere (this draft is obsolete, please refer to ...)

13:01:46 [mjs]

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13:02:30 [Barstow]

AB: Doug, et. al http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications

13:02:41 [freedom]

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13:03:59 [dsr]

Art projects the pub status page http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus

13:04:52 [dsr]

Art updates the pub status for Clipboard as above,

13:04:56 [Bo_Chen]

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13:05:27 [Barstow]

ACTION: Doug update Editor's Draft of Window spec to say the spec is no longer active

13:05:27 [trackbot]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Doug

13:05:27 [trackbot]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dstamper, schepers)

13:05:56 [Barstow]

ACTION: schepers update Editor's Draft of Window and REX specs to say the specs are no longer active

13:05:57 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-603 - Update Editor's Draft of Window and REX specs to say the specs are no longer active [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-08].

13:08:03 [anthony_work]

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13:08:55 [dsr]

Anne: move element traversal into DOM4 ...

13:09:23 [zhang-chinaunicom]

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13:09:40 [dsr]

Art: are there any process issues for that

13:10:50 [dsr]

Some discussuion whether we will discuss UMP

13:11:24 [dsr]

Art: if we do discuss UMP, we should ensure the TAG is represented

13:12:11 [dsr]

Art: server-sent events, anyone interested in discussing that?

13:12:42 [dsr]

Currently blocked on HTML5 workload

13:12:48 [anne]

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/charter/#decisions

13:13:45 [DKA]

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13:13:58 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow work with WebApps Team and Anne to find a way for W3C to host Opera's event-source tests

13:13:58 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-604 - Work with WebApps Team and Anne to find a way for W3C to host Opera's event-source tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

13:14:01 [dsr]

Anne: I published a test suite, but to publish it on W3C site we need some decision on hosting PHP scripts

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13:14:09 [anne]

http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/EventSource/

13:14:26 [dsr]

Dom: depending on the kind of PHP script there should be a way to host it on a W3C server.

13:14:47 [anne]

http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn

13:14:56 [dsr]

Anne: all the code is available if you have subversion

13:15:00 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow add Opera's test suite for EventSource to the PubStatus page (see mins from 1-Nov-2010 for the link)

13:15:00 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-605 - Add Opera's test suite for EventSource to the PubStatus page (see mins from 1-Nov-2010 for the link) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

13:16:21 [dsr]

Chaals walks in and is introduced by Doug :)

13:16:45 [chaals]

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13:17:15 [chaals]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

13:17:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html chaals

13:17:21 [noah]

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13:17:33 [chaals]

Present+ chaals

13:17:39 [anne]

dom, one is somewhat evil, writing and reading files

13:17:51 [dom]

brrr

13:18:14 [dom]

any chance you could document a bit more what they do and what they require?

13:18:18 [darobin]

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13:18:19 [anne]

there's no localStorage in PHP

13:18:21 [freedom_]

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13:18:48 [dsr]

The TAG will join us at 4pm.

13:18:51 [anne]

dom, basically access to everything from the request and being able to do pretty much anything in the response

13:18:58 [anne]

dom, and some kind of state thing on the server

13:19:06 [dsr]

Topic: WebSQL

13:19:13 [dom]

right; I was thinking of actually comments in the PHP code :)

13:19:28 [anne]

dom, come on, it's only a couple of lines

13:19:39 [dsr]

Same situation as a year or more,

13:19:55 [dsr]

two implementations but no will to move it forward

13:20:22 [dom]

they are, anne, but these things will have to be maintained for X years; I'm thinking to the poor soul that will have to port these things to PHP 12 (or Scala 5)

13:20:32 [dsr]

Chaals: we can republish it as a NOTE

13:20:53 [dsr]

Anne: we still think it's interesting and don't want to remove it.

13:21:14 [dsr]

Doug: we can change to a Note and when interest renews, we can bring it back

13:23:26 [dsr]

Art displays the current spec which notes in red that we only have implementations on top of SQLite and don't have a separate spec for the subset of SQL involved.

13:23:38 [dsr]

DSR: is it a strict subset of SQL standard?

13:23:53 [dsr]

No, it also includes some extensions

13:24:46 [dsr]

Dom: picking up the subset definition may also trigger IPR disclosure process.

13:25:27 [dom]

s/picking up the subset definition may also trigger IPR disclosure process./the only drawback of switching to Note is that you would have to restart the IPR process to bring it back to Rec-track/

13:25:32 [dsr]

We agree to republish as a WG Note

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13:26:07 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish Web SQL Database as a Working Group Note (and hence signal the spec is no longer on the REC track)

13:26:07 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-606 - Start a CfC to publish Web SQL Database as a Working Group Note (and hence signal the spec is no longer on the REC track) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

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13:27:02 [dsr]

Topic: XHR + Widgets

13:27:25 [anne]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0391.html

13:27:47 [dsr]

Brian posted email on this ...

13:28:42 [dsr]

Brian explains complications relating to cross domain security model.

13:29:29 [dsr]

Brian widgets have no defined origin

13:30:27 [dsr]

DSR asks why widgets don't have an origin

13:30:50 [dsr]

Explanations relating to not wanting to leak information,

13:31:24 [dsr]

installed apps need to satisfy a higher bar for security.

13:31:52 [dsr]

Signed widgets could imply an origin, but how would this be used in a protocol like redirect

13:32:25 [noah]

NM: As a tracking mechanism, I could typically track two actions: one long term for the complete result, linking to the detailed goals; the other short term for the next draft

13:32:38 [noah]

LMM: My focus is more on the quality of the result than on the date

13:32:48 [noah]

LMM: We should have output regularly

13:33:12 [noah]

AM: Difficulty in getting reviewing

13:33:28 [dsr]

Brian: if I issue a request vis XHR and it pings around several redirects, do I as an app author need to do anything to be involved in the redirects

13:34:16 [dsr]

Brian: user agent is supposed to retain security token from redirect response.

13:35:37 [dsr]

Soref: Similar story applies to plugins with events for each redirect

13:36:10 [timeless_mbp]

https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/plugin-futures/2010-October/000168.html

13:36:14 [timeless_mbp]

https://wiki.mozilla.org/NPAPI:HTTPRedirectHandling

13:36:15 [dsr]

Anne: are you saying redirects don't work with OAUTH today?

13:37:04 [dsr]

Brian: you lose information and your app would have to be OAUTH aware

13:37:21 [timeless_mbp]

http://developer.linkedin.com/message/1032;jsessionid=704AF1CC292EA4F8582CB7C91B21F7C7.node0#1032

13:37:38 [dsr]

Anne: aren't redirects supposed to be transparent

13:37:41 [timeless_mbp]

1. Oct 26, 2009 12:28 PM in response to: caleb

13:37:41 [timeless_mbp]

Re: OAuth Redirect not happening?

13:37:41 [timeless_mbp]

Did you add your oauth_callback parameter to the requestToken request or the authorize request?

13:37:41 [timeless_mbp]

If the latter then we default to an out-of-band callback.

13:37:41 [timeless_mbp]

You may need to insure that your oauth library is using 1.0a.

13:38:04 [dsr]

Brian: twitter and others are including info in redirect responses.

13:38:45 [timeless_mbp]

[OAuth http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5849]

13:40:05 [dsr]

Anne: it is kind of weird that widgets want to follow web model but not in full

13:41:46 [dsr]

We shouldn't conflict this use of redirects with widgets spec as it applies more generally

13:42:25 [dsr]

Right now our security model is origin based.

13:43:24 [dsr]

s/conflict/conflate/

13:43:49 [dsr]

origin doesn't have to be an HTTP URI

13:44:16 [dsr]

Anne: CORS does have a wildcard for URI

13:45:21 [hsivonen]

q+

13:45:49 [timeless_mbp]

ack hsivonen

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13:46:16 [dsr]

Anne: widget could send an arbitrary token for origin

13:46:17 [dom]

(so maybe there needs to be a work item on Widgets Origin?)

13:48:50 [dsr]

Henri: broken browsers can fake orgin as can broken widgets, the attack you are trying to prevent is a rogue widget running on a trusted platform accessing private data

13:50:36 [dsr]

Henri: user would be recognized by normal login process. The widget would be identified by a hash of the widget so that the server has reasonable believe that the widget hasn't been tampered with, assuming a trusted widget runtime.

13:50:50 [dsr]

s/believe/belief/

13:51:24 [dsr]

Henri: the hash is computed in widget package file.

13:51:45 [dsr]

Server needs to remember the hash for the widgets they issued/trust

13:52:40 [dsr]

The hash is a proxy for the identify of the widget

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13:53:47 [dsr]

Anne: widgets are siloed from the browser

13:54:34 [dsr]

Brian: there is not guarantee that the browser couldn't execute the widget

13:54:45 [dsr]

Anne: it would still be sandboxed

13:54:55 [dsr]

s/not/no/

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13:57:34 [dsr]

Henri summarises the trust model whereby server uses checksum over widget's code as a check on its is identity.

13:57:59 [dsr]

s/is/code as its/

13:58:13 [dsr]

Topic: Web Events

13:59:08 [dsr]

Art: last week W3C Director approved new WG on events. Doug will review its scope for us now.

13:59:48 [Barstow]

Web Events home: http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/

14:00:01 [Barstow]

Web Events: Charter

14:00:03 [dsr]

Two main aims: touch interfaces (including pen tablets, white boards etc) we call these low level or physical events

14:00:07 [Barstow]

... http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/

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14:01:02 [dsr]

Other events are intentional e.g. "undo" and at a higher level than say "click".

14:01:25 [dsr]

Doug calls these user level events.

14:01:50 [dsr]

We won't be covering gestures which vary between devices.

14:02:30 [dsr]

We will provide a non-normative document describing gestures for informative purposes.

14:03:10 [Kai]

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14:03:15 [dsr]

Doug invites interested people to join the new WG

14:03:44 [dsr]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/

14:04:19 [aroben]

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14:04:31 [dsr]

Art: we want to develop a shared terminology and a set of use cases.

14:05:31 [dsr]

The subsequent requirements analysis will help us to filter aspects that are in scope from those that are out of scope.

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14:06:18 [chaals]

q+

14:06:44 [dsr]

Doug: hopes to come up with something that is universally acceptable.

14:07:28 [dsr]

Chaals: we are already signed up to the new WG and believe that higher level events are really important

14:08:16 [dsr]

This will simplify web app development in the long run

14:08:47 [dsr]

Doug: also good for implentors

14:09:25 [dsr]

Sam: can't talk about touch, but there has been some work on higher level events (e.g. relating to ARIA)

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14:10:46 [dsr]

There are challenges to do with privacy, e.g. disclosing that you are using a screen reader.

14:11:10 [dsr]

Doug: we are open to suggestions

14:12:31 [dsr]

Olka: there is some commonality in higher level events across platforms (conceptually)

14:13:43 [dsr]

Doug: if we can find a sweet spot for a useful set of gestures that are universal and vendors are agreeable we can move forward.

14:14:52 [dsr]

Doug: we are not going to specify the specific user actions involved in gestures e.g. pinch.

14:15:53 [dsr]

Brian: if there is a common set of events regardless of how they are triggered, then that is still in scope, right?

14:16:37 [dsr]

Chaals summarises...

14:17:32 [dsr]

cites "back" action as example

14:17:33 [Barstow]

s/Olka:/Ilkka:/

14:18:56 [dsr]

Allowing app developers to bind their code to these higher level UI events makes their code easier to develop and more robust.

14:19:59 [dsr]

Soref: other examples include pan and zoom.

14:20:15 [timeless_mbp]

s/Soref/timeless/

14:20:40 [dsr]

Chaals: this topic has been around for a decade e.g. hover, click and activate

14:21:12 [dsr]

we should leave this to the new Web Events WG!

14:22:36 [dsr]

Topic: CORS and UMP

14:23:04 [dsr]

Is anyone going to implement UMP? Answer no.

14:23:30 [dsr]

Art: who is going to push CORS into Last Call?

14:23:45 [dsr]

Any major issues to resolve for that to happen?

14:23:47 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/7 has one raised issue about confused deputy

14:24:21 [dsr]

Doug: UMP has been actively edited, but just not implemented.

14:24:41 [dsr]

Art: easiest way to kill UMP is to move CORS forward,

14:25:34 [dsr]

Dom: dependencies don't effect moving spec to Last Call.

14:26:23 [dsr]

Anne: some issues to resolve (e.g. 3 person handshake)

14:26:35 [Barstow]

ACTION: barstow work with Anne on a plan to move CORS to LCWD

14:26:35 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-607 - Work with Anne on a plan to move CORS to LCWD [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].

14:28:09 [dsr]

we break for caffeine

14:28:15 [anne]

s/3 person/3 party/

14:28:25 [dsr]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:28:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr

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15:08:41 [yongil_jang]

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15:10:01 [dsr]

we resume after the coffee break

15:10:57 [dsr]

The data cache spec was defined to address a number of features such as providing access to email attachments when you are offline

15:11:11 [dom]

-> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/ DataCache API Editors draft

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15:11:52 [dsr]

(says Eric)

15:12:16 [dsr]

The TAG members introduce themselves.

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15:13:48 [dsr]

The TAG expressed an interest in hearing about Web Storage, a spec edited by Hixie, who unfortunately isn't present today.

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15:15:00 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One (15 Dec 2004)

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15:15:30 [Seung-Jae]

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15:15:42 [dsr]

Noah explains that TAG members are mainly hear to listen, and describes the context.

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15:16:42 [dsr]

Maciej: we do have people hear with some expertise in this topic who could offer their comments.

15:17:29 [dsr]

Local storage mechanisms can boost performance of online web apps, and enable them to work when a connection drops out.

15:18:25 [dsr]

This comes with privacy implications and many of you will have heard of evercookie which works very hard to preserve cookies against deletion.

15:19:15 [dsr]

HTTP cookies are just one of many ways for sites to track users, and browsers doesn't have full control over all of them.

15:19:45 [dsr]

Browsers are evolving to support users wishing to clear all information relating to a given site.

15:19:57 [dsr]

This should help with privacy.

15:21:07 [dsr]

There are certain ways to track users without any local storage, e.g. finger prints based upon the browser's configuration (e.g. what fonts are locally installed).

15:22:08 [timeless]

[ http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/idog.jpg ]

15:22:47 [dsr]

Noah: when you use the web in general, what assurances can we offer?

15:23:55 [dom]

(to me, this seems to point to the fact that browsers should behave separately when you're logged in and when you're not)

15:23:59 [dsr]

Maciej: using the browser in a safe mode and accessing sites through torr (anonymising proxy) is about as good as is possible.

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15:24:28 [dsr]

however, this will provide a reduced user experience ...

15:24:54 [dsr]

And even then there may be ways to perform linkability analyses.

15:25:05 [timeless]

[Exploring the Use of Discrete Gestures for Authentication http://eprints.comp.lancs.ac.uk/2204/]

15:25:31 [dom]

["on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog" — but nowadays, on the internet, everybody knows your dog's name]

15:25:58 [dsr]

Dan: do local URIs offer any help?

15:26:12 [timeless]

[ And here's a "Reality" Check http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/sum97/dog2.gif — from http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html ]

15:26:33 [chaals]

q+

15:26:39 [dsr]

[ we agree to discuss storage not privacy to avoid going off into the weeds ]

15:28:00 [timeless]

ack chaals

15:28:12 [dsr]

Maciej: HTML5 has some new APIs e.g. for back function that can be helpful.

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15:28:42 [dom]

-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/history.html#dom-history-pushstate HTML5 pushState() method to help manage URI-based views

15:28:54 [noah]

q+ masinter

15:29:13 [dsr]

Chaals: we may want to ask what's different about URIs in the context of web widgets.

15:29:16 [anne]

q+

15:29:50 [dsr]

Right now widgets don't have a URI of their own, so that they don't have a URI to hang their data off.

15:30:45 [dsr]

We may want a way to distinguish between a local copy and the version on the server, but that is a lesser issue.

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15:31:12 [dsr]

Ashok: widgets don't have URIs, right, so how are they identified?

15:31:32 [noah]

q?

15:31:52 [dsr]

Chaals: the current widget spec doesn't provide for exposing a URI.

15:32:01 [timeless]

ack masinter

15:32:31 [dsr]

Larry: URI is not just a resource identifier, it is also a means for communicating, e.g. sharing a bookmark with someone

15:33:31 [dsr]

You don't want to encapsulate all of the application state in the URI, but rather to provide a means for reconstituring the important state, e.g. the same route on a map, even in the map is in a different language.

15:34:02 [timeless]

(of note, the sharable bits that Google Maps exposes via "share" encode the Language, which generally annoys me)

15:34:09 [chaals]

q+

15:34:16 [timeless]

ack anne

15:35:03 [dsr]

Anne: as Maciej mentioned HTML5 introduces a means for an application to push the current state and to encapsulate this in a URL for sharing with others, e.g. via copy and paste

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15:35:24 [dsr]

This avoids the need for the fragment identifier for the state

15:35:41 [timeless]

s/for/to use/

15:35:51 [dsr]

The application may store state locally or in the server.

15:35:52 [timeless]

ack chaals

15:38:09 [dsr]

Larry: it would be nice if the way you name things is independent of whether they are in local storage or on the server

15:38:44 [dsr]

If apps have too much state then you should try to put it into a URI.

15:38:59 [timeless]

s/should/should not/

15:39:09 [dsr]

Chaals and Larry agree on the need for providing advice to developers on good practices.

15:41:04 [dsr]

Doug: we can't know everything that people want to do, and can only do our best

15:41:34 [noah]

q?

15:41:36 [noah]

q+

15:41:56 [dsr]

Anne: trying to write guidelines for developers is tough

15:42:01 [timeless]

ack noah

15:42:14 [dsr]

Noah: generally agree with what has been said

15:43:08 [dsr]

I am not ready to say you need a URI for every item in a SQL store, but it is worth asking the question to understand the issues.

15:43:51 [dsr]

The TAG's role is to point out that there is an issue somewhere in here when it comes to storage.

15:44:04 [chaals]

q+

15:44:28 [dom]

(I'm not sure client-side storage is significantly different from server-side storage; many server-side applications don't use well URIs to expose state either)

15:44:37 [dsr]

If people end up putting a lot of data in local storage that isn't addressable then this is a problem.

15:44:57 [Kai]

(except availability might be an issue)

15:45:00 [dsr]

i.e. pulling things out of web space...

15:46:05 [dsr]

Chaals draws analogy with pulling alligators out of the swap before the architects build the city...

15:46:53 [dsr]

Ashok: why don't you guys let the browser address things in databases?

15:47:19 [dsr]

We do have SQlite. Ashok responds, I mean a real database@! :)

15:48:35 [dsr]

Ashok: define a way to provide a SQL interface to requesting data, and returning it in whatever format makes sense

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15:49:16 [dsr]

Dan asks about the various forms of local storage under consideration.

15:49:46 [dsr]

Chaals: for various reasons it is unlikely that the SQL interface will make it to REC

15:50:22 [dsr]

All of the major browser vendors have indicated there support for IndexDB

15:50:47 [dsr]

s/there/their/

15:50:56 [chaals]

a/All of the //

15:52:16 [dsr]

Sam: file storage API is yet another mechanism under consideration. This is sandboxed from the devices full file system.

15:52:19 [anne]

http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/

15:52:29 [anne]

http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-dir-sys.html is it specifically

15:52:38 [anne]

(for some confusing reason in the DAP directory)

15:52:46 [anne]

(well, historical)

15:52:47 [dom]

(because DAP rocks)

15:53:02 [timeless]

q?

15:53:09 [chaals]

q-

15:53:33 [dsr]

Larry: I have an update of the file: scheme for URIs and would love to see that involved.

15:54:21 [dsr]

This hides OS dependent path syntax issues.

15:55:39 [dsr]

Art: any more questions on both sides?

15:56:17 [dsr]

Dan: sounds to me that the TAG could work on some kind of developer guidelines document if that is out of scope for Web Apps WG

15:56:48 [dsr]

Chaals: that is out of scope for us, so yes that would be something for you to think about

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15:57:46 [dsr]

Larry: to clarify I am not editing the file: URI scheme spec and would appreciate someone else taking it on.

15:59:40 [dsr]

[ the TAG representatives leave the room ]

16:01:28 [dsr]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:01:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr

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16:08:54 [dom]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:08:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dom

16:08:59 [dom]

RRSAgent, make log public

16:09:08 [chaals]

rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight

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16:26:47 [chaals]

scribe: chaals

16:26:52 [chaals]

Topic: i18n

16:26:58 [Barstow]

ScribeNick: ArtB

16:27:12 [Barstow]

Topic: DOM 3 Events Input Locale

16:27:22 [anne]

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16:27:26 [chaals]

ScribeNick: chaals

16:28:04 [chaals]

Present+: Rishida, Aron

16:28:27 [chaals]

Aron: (I work for Google.)

16:29:00 [timeless]

s/Aron/Aharon/

16:29:03 [chaals]

... when working on online editor we realised it would be good to know the keyboard locale being used, in th context of smart quotes (langauge specific, and common in word-processors)

16:29:23 [timeless]

s/th context/the context/

16:29:29 [chaals]

i/Aharon/Richard: I work for W3C on i18n/

16:29:34 [timeless]

s/langauge/language/

16:29:38 [anne]

I think it reads Aharon

16:29:45 [chaals]

s/Aron/Aharon/

16:30:07 [anne]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010OctDec/0044.html

16:30:19 [chaals]

... Other usecase is inline directional styling. If you are typing RTL you often need to quote an LTR language (usually english)

16:30:40 [timeless]

s/english/English/

16:30:52 [chaals]

... Problem is if the insert starts with punctuation or numbers, etc., you get problems unless the indicators are explicit.

16:31:05 [chaals]

s/indicators/directional indicators/

16:31:25 [chaals]

... Editors provide a user control to indicate paragraph direction, but not for indicating a span within a larger paragraph.

16:31:59 [chaals]

... Word is clever and detects the keyboard being used. If I am typing in hebrew and switch to english keyboard, it switches the direction.

16:32:07 [timeless]

s/hebrew/Hebrew/

16:32:12 [timeless]

s/english/English/

16:32:32 [chaals]

... Generalising this, using an IME, voice recognition, etc, you still want to know what language it is set up for.

16:32:34 [timeless]

s/direction/direction for the block of text entered in that language/

16:32:40 [chaals]

... Many of these devices are langauge specific.

16:32:50 [timeless]

s/langauge/language/

16:33:04 [chaals]

... The basic idea is to provide a keyboard-locale property as BCP47 language code for key and text events.

16:33:34 [chaals]

... Doesn't mean that what was typed is in that locale, but it gives a good-enough heuristic to give a significant improvement.

16:34:10 [chaals]

... Besides that, having a global object that has an input-locale property would be useful.

16:34:30 [chaals]

... And an event that would indicate that locale has changed.

16:34:37 [timeless]

s/locale/the locale/

16:34:45 [chaals]

... (For other use cases than those identified).

16:35:02 [chaals]

... Complication: You could use multiple input devices each configured to a different language.

16:35:14 [chaals]

... Didn't deal with that, but worth thinking about.

16:35:45 [chaals]

DougS: We talked about a number of mechanisms in DOM 3. Suggested that having it in the event might become heavy.

16:35:58 [chaals]

... You can point to a static variable...

16:36:33 [chaals]

... Another proposal was having the global property, and we rejected it for 2 reasons: Complication identified, and it is yet another way to profile/sniff users, and we want to avoid this

16:37:10 [chaals]

... I would feel happy typing stuff into a page - I have already given that some trust, so I am OK with it doing some more detection.

16:37:20 [timeless]

q+

16:37:27 [chaals]

... I don't want a spam popup to get my language information though...

16:37:55 [chaals]

??: What if you synthesise an event through the DOM?

16:38:09 [chaals]

Josh: Have to be doing input...

16:38:23 [chaals]

DougS: Keyboard inputs and text

16:38:31 [timeless]

q-

16:38:44 [chaals]

Sam: Usually you have to fill in the properties yourself, or they don't show up.

16:38:50 [Barstow]

s/??:/Geoffrey/

16:38:51 [anne]

q+

16:39:16 [chaals]

... If a popup captures key inputs (clickjacking...) then you still have an issue

16:39:37 [chaals]

Anne: Valid concern. If you modify it you cannot modify init methods.

16:39:45 [chaals]

Maciej: Init Methods --

16:39:48 [anne]

nuke it

16:40:04 [chaals]

Josh: Next events thing could deal with that.

16:40:18 [chaals]

Geoffrey: If we don't change the init, then you don't have a privacy problem.

16:40:45 [chaals]

Anne: Sounds complicated - you eed to have a locale dictionary. Would it be possible to get the right behaviour in the User Agent instead?

16:40:50 [timeless]

q?

16:40:52 [timeless]

q-

16:40:55 [chaals]

ack a

16:41:26 [chaals]

Aharon: I don't know all the use cases - I've given you the ones that came up immediately on a project.

16:41:45 [chaals]

DougS: We got basically the same feedback from MS Live.

16:42:34 [chaals]

Aharon: It's not direction specific, it is also relevant switching from russian to english keyboard. French speakers would use french quotes, but if they type english they want english quotes but they are likely to keep using a french keyboard.

16:42:46 [timeless]

s/russian/Russian/

16:42:49 [timeless]

s/english/English/

16:42:54 [timeless]

s/english/English/

16:42:54 [chaals]

DougS: Would fail there, but it is still sufficiently useful

16:43:29 [chaals]

Aharon: Yes. Talking about heuristics, yes they are complex. But the people who want to support this are willing to deal with the complexity, but they don't have the underlying information to support doing so.

16:44:04 [chaals]

... having the APIs available in javascript would be very useful. But I don't think this is the right forum for that (there are Javascript APIs being proposed for i18n purposes).

16:44:40 [chaals]

... The capability is included in javascript packages out there (e.g. in Google closure you can get a good guess about whether a language code implies RTL or LTR)

16:44:42 [timeless]

[ Google Closure http://code.google.com/closure/library/ ]

16:45:00 [chaals]

Anne: This or HTML-WG could be the right forum for talking about APIs...

16:45:05 [chaals]

DougS: But not this spec.

16:45:23 [chaals]

Aharon: Think there is an effort to include native i18n functionality in javascript.

16:45:39 [timeless]

s/javascript/ecmascript/

16:45:43 [chaals]

Anne: Don't think it makes sense for that to cover this.

16:46:07 [chaals]

Olli: I think we agree already.

16:46:38 [timeless]

s/this/[i18n api in javascript core - as opposed to dom]/

16:46:48 [chaals]

i/Olli/Aharon: Think it makes sense to have javascript allow us to determine natively/

16:47:01 [chaals]

Anne: Still have concern about fingerprinting

16:47:10 [chaals]

Geoffrey: Only works if people are typing

16:47:16 [chaals]

[Yes, but people type all the time]

16:47:49 [chaals]

CMN: A highly efficient web timing interface is likely to be more useful for improved fingerprinting.

16:49:08 [chaals]

DS: Think the concerns are valid, but this is useful enough to override them. Should be a note in the spec explaining the issue

16:49:21 [chaals]

Anne: Users are not going to read the spec, and this is relevant to users. But I am not opposed.

16:49:51 [chaals]

MJS: Useful to note so people who want to make anti-fingerprinting see it.

16:50:05 [chaals]

Olli: Web apps still need to handle the case where input-locale is not avialable.

16:50:14 [Yves]

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16:50:17 [timeless]

s/avialable/available/

16:50:23 [chaals]

Aharon: Yes. The spec already notes what to do when this happens.

16:50:51 [chaals]

DougS: Pasting means there is no input locale.

16:51:11 [chaals]

Aharon: And think it will stay like that. This is specifically about things being input.

16:51:38 [chaals]

Anne: Why put it on keyboard? Why not just on text - that seems sufficient and I don't see the value for keyup/down etc.

16:52:14 [chaals]

EricU: Having it for keyup/down could be useful to write a really powerful editor. E.g. if you want to deal with ctrl-D you have to get to the level of key events.

16:52:55 [chaals]

CMN: Think Anne is right...

16:52:55 [smaug_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/0024.html

16:53:11 [chaals]

... don't need to handle text and key input if you can just handle key input.

16:54:09 [chaals]

s/ if you can just handle key input/, text is enough because command keys are not locale-dependent in effect/

16:54:32 [chaals]

Josh: But if you write a rich editor you just trap key events, rather than having to deal with text input at all.

16:55:09 [chaals]

DougS: The plan is to add the proposal, and do it...

16:56:02 [chaals]

Doug claims Adrian thought this was great and has been agitating for it for ages.

16:56:06 [timeless]

this was http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/119

16:56:19 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:56:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow

16:56:57 [chaals]

[Adjourned for the day]

16:57:40 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:57:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow

16:58:50 [chaals]

Present+ DanA, LarryM, Ashok, Aharon, Rishida

16:59:07 [chaals]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:59:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html chaals

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17:03:35 [Barstow]

Present+ Art_Barstow, Mike_Smith, Wonsuk_Lee, zhang_chengyan, wujing, junliao, Johnson_Wang, Adam_Boyet, Bo_Chen, Hiro_I, Yung_Yu_Chan,

17:03:40 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, make minutes

17:03:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow

17:04:47 [Barstow]

Present+ Doug_Schepers, Josh_Soref, Eric_Uhrane

17:04:57 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, make minutes

17:04:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow

17:05:38 [Barstow]

Present+ Laszlo_Gombos, Yael_Aharon

17:06:20 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, make minutes

17:06:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow

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07:55:50 [Barstow]

RRSAgent, bye

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-actions.rdf :

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow P&C spec: make it clear in the Abtract or Intro that P&C widgets != UI controls [1]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T09-27-35

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: caceres notify P&F WG when the P&C Conformance Checker is published [2]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T09-34-22

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow Web Workers: add link to bug database to the PubStatus page [3]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-21-33

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow Web Workers: work with Team to find resource(s) to review LC comments and plan for Candidate [4]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-27-01

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow PubStatus update Plans for Workers/Storage/Event-source that HTML5 Editor workload is the block and ask for volunteers [5]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-33-51

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Messaging [6]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-35-28

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow ask Nikunj to report the status and plans of Programmable Cache to public-webapps [7]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-38-54

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow ask Oracle about their level of interest in Programmable Cache [8]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-40-04

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow ask public-webapps about creating Use Cases and requirements of Program App Caches versus HTML5 App Cache [9]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-49-18

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Barstow to contact julian reschke and Mark Nottingham about Data Cache [10]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-52-17

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Doug update Editor's Draft of Window spec to say the spec is no longer active [11]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-05-27

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: schepers update Editor's Draft of Window and REX specs to say the specs are no longer active [12]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-05-56

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow work with WebApps Team and Anne to find a way for W3C to host Opera's event-source tests [13]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-13-58

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow add Opera's test suite for EventSource to the PubStatus page (see mins from 1-Nov-2010 for the link) [14]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-15-00

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish Web SQL Database as a Working Group Note (and hence signal the spec is no longer on the REC track) [15]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-26-07

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow work with Anne on a plan to move CORS to LCWD [16]

07:55:50 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T14-26-35

07:57:17 [hidetaka]

hidetaka has joined #webapps