16:11:20 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:11:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc 16:11:22 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:11:24 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:11:24 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes 16:11:25 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:11:25 Date: 21 October 2010 16:17:05 Agenda+ Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html 16:17:18 zakim, agenda 16:17:18 I don't understand 'agenda', JAllan 16:17:22 zakim, agenda? 16:17:22 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 16:17:23 1. HTML 5 and keyboard access [from kford] 16:17:24 2. update: HTML5 Bug 10709: @title should be a required attribute for FRAME and IFRAME in HTML5 from Gregory J. Rosmaita 16:17:27 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0019.html [from kford] 16:17:30 7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford] 16:17:32 8. Action Item Review [from kford] 16:17:34 9. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan] 16:18:04 zakim, close item 1 16:18:04 agendum 1, HTML 5 and keyboard access, closed 16:18:06 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:18:07 2. update: HTML5 Bug 10709: @title should be a required attribute for FRAME and IFRAME in HTML5 from Gregory J. Rosmaita 16:18:12 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0019.html [from kford] 16:18:19 zakim, close item 2 16:18:19 agendum 2, update: HTML5 Bug 10709: @title should be a required attribute for FRAME and IFRAME in HTML5 from Gregory J. Rosmaita 16:18:24 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0019.html, closed 16:18:29 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:18:33 7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford] 16:23:38 Agenda+ Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html 16:32:08 zakim, agenda? 16:32:08 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 16:32:09 7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford] 16:32:12 8. Action Item Review [from kford] 16:32:14 9. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan] 16:32:17 10. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan] 16:33:03 zakim, agenda order is 9, 7, 6, 10 16:33:03 ok, JAllan 16:33:13 zakim, agenda? 16:33:13 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 16:33:15 9. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan] 16:33:18 7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford] 16:33:21 10. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan] 16:33:24 8. Action Item Review [from kford] 16:34:24 Agenda+ November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudoactions, etc 16:36:58 zakim, item 9=1 16:36:58 agendum 9 replaced 16:37:11 zakim, item 7=2 16:37:11 agendum 7 replaced 16:37:29 zakim, item 11=3 16:37:29 agendum 11 replaced 16:37:43 zakim, item 10=4 16:37:43 agendum 10 replaced 16:37:52 zakim, item 8=5 16:37:52 agendum 8 replaced 16:38:00 zakim, show agenda 16:38:00 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 16:38:01 9. 1 16:38:01 7. 2 16:38:01 10. 4 16:38:01 8. 5 16:38:01 11. 3 16:38:57 zakim, clear the agenda 16:38:57 agenda cleared 16:39:24 agenda+ Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html 16:39:57 agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html 16:40:30 Agenda+ November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc 16:40:55 agenda+ Action Item Review 16:41:11 agenda+ Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html 16:41:26 regrets: KFord 16:59:54 jeanne has joined #ua 17:00:42 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:49 +jallan 17:01:33 +Greg 17:01:43 Jan has joined #ua 17:02:03 zakim, code? 17:02:03 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan 17:02:17 +[IPcaller] 17:02:35 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:02:35 +Jan; got it 17:02:41 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:02:50 Greg has joined #ua 17:02:51 sharper has joined #ua 17:03:01 zakim, code? 17:03:01 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper 17:03:03 +Kim_Patch 17:03:47 +??P4 17:04:02 zakim, ??P4 is sharper 17:04:02 +sharper; got it 17:04:11 +Jeanne 17:05:31 regrets+PLauke 17:05:39 zakim, show agenda 17:05:39 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 17:05:40 1. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan] 17:05:43 2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan] 17:05:47 3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan] 17:05:50 4. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 17:05:52 5. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan] 17:07:11 chair: JAllan 17:07:21 scribe: Harper_Simon 17:07:21 ScribeNick: sharper 17:07:25 +??P6 17:07:36 rrsagent, make logs public 17:07:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:07:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper 17:07:56 present+ Hakkinen_Mark 17:08:08 present+ Harper_Simon 17:08:28 present+ Allan_James 17:08:36 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:08:51 http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20019864-264.html 17:09:12 http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-October/028818.html 17:09:16 zakim, save agenda 17:09:53 ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-agenda.rdf 17:10:00 present+ Spellman_Jeanne 17:10:13 present+ Patch_Kim 17:10:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:10:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper 17:11:36 zakim, agenda? 17:11:36 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 17:11:37 1. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan] 17:11:39 2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan] 17:11:43 3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan] 17:11:46 4. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 17:11:48 5. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan] 17:11:59 zakim, take up item 1 17:11:59 agendum 1. "Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html" taken up [from JAllan] 17:12:08 I had two thoughts on Google Instant: (a) User needs to be able to disable it, along with all other non-user-requested changes (side effects); (b) When the UA begins and ends any update, how is the user notified through the UI and AT notified programmatically? 17:13:10 Do we have this kind of Auto Suggest List in the UI covered 17:15:44 Interesting to consider the idea of an "auto-suggested" attribute on content, so that AT can special-case how it's handled. (Auto-suggested text would presumably also be selected, but is a special case of selected text.) 17:16:11 JA: How should this indicate something new has appeared? 17:16:23 That would be a new attribute for acessibility API for communicating content to assistive technology. 17:17:46 present+ Lowney_Greg 17:21:11 GL: don't we already say users should turn off non-user initiated side effects... 17:21:29 JA: isn't this turn off unwanted messages 17:25:57 So in many ways this is really just a special case of the general situation where content or UI changes and the UA has to expose this programmatically through accessibility API so that the AT can decide whether and how to notify the user, highlight the changes, etc. 17:27:15 JA: This would be covered by a change of state discussed in 2.1.2 17:28:48 MH: I'd say that it would fail 2.1.2 17:29:10 JA: Is it covered or do we need something new? 17:29:40 From the user's perspective, as it should be conveyed through standard-control equivalences to assistive technology, the input box is in fact a drop-down combo-box, and when the user starts typing the drop-down list portion is changed from hidden to displayed. It should not matter that it's implemented as a table or what, as long as the appropriate equivalence is exposed. 17:29:48 All: Covered in 2.1.2 17:30:22 RESOLVED: Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html covered in 2.1.2 17:33:18 When using a platform accessibility API such as MSAA, one can represent a complex set of controls as equivalent to a single control such as a drop-down combobox, including noting state changes such as the drop-down portion becoming hidden or visible, changes to focus and selection within the drop-down list portion, etc. Does ARIA allow exposing at this complex, functional level as well? 17:34:04 JA: Some of this should go in the IER for 2.2 17:34:53 GL: Will ask this to the PF list as they do ARIA. 17:35:18 action: jallan to add google instant information to the IER for 2.1.2 17:35:19 Created ACTION-459 - Add google instant information to the IER for 2.1.2 [on Jim Allan - due 2010-10-28]. 17:41:45 SH: If its configurable on/off then it conforms to our guidelines. 17:46:38 2.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including user interface, rendered content, generated content, and alternative content, make available the name, role, state, value, and description via a platform accessibility architecture. 17:49:11 Something to look into: do we need to change 2.1 to explicitly discuss notifying AT about element creation and destruction, as well as state changes that are covered by 2.1.6, etc. 17:49:22 zakim, close item 1 17:49:22 agendum 1, Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html, closed 17:49:23 zakim, close item 1 17:49:24 zakim, take up item 2 17:49:25 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:49:28 2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan] 17:49:31 agendum 1, Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html, closed 17:49:34 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:49:37 2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan] 17:49:40 agendum 2. "Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html" taken up [from JAllan] 17:49:45 zakim, show agenda 17:49:45 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 17:49:46 2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan] 17:49:50 3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan] 17:49:52 4. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 17:49:54 5. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan] 17:50:32 JA: JS and KF where present 17:50:55 zakim, open item2 17:50:55 agendum 2. "Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html" taken up [from JAllan] 17:51:25 JS: PF has a media subgroup - made list of requirements in video accessibility in HTML5 - sent to us for comments 17:51:34 see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Media_Accessibility_Checklist for the draft 17:51:48 JS: extensive comments and responses - in the UAAG guidelines and if we covered it 17:52:09 JS: Also a comp list of everything we wanted to consider 17:54:12 JS: Lets take these one at a time 17:54:29 DV-11 Support the simultaneous playback of both the described and non-described audio tracks so that one may be directed at separate outputs (e.g., a speaker and headphones). 17:54:59 possible AAA 17:55:53 -Greg 17:56:47 +Greg 17:57:46 JA: we need to take a look at the 3 or 4 things we may need a success criteria for - and re-evaluate 18:00:52 Discussion re CC and the terms used such as 'gapless cues' 18:01:41 GL: seems like the UA should just implement them appropriately based on the spec if they exist on it 18:02:52 MH: if they are rendered by JScript then it is WCAG if it is browser based in the case of say HTML5 then it may be us 18:03:51 -sharper 18:04:14 zakim, code? 18:04:14 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper 18:04:43 +??P4 18:04:58 zakim, ??P4 is sharper 18:04:58 +sharper; got it 18:05:24 Questioned why CC-2 is a + while CC-3 is a N/A--seems they're very parallel. 18:08:05 EVD 2 and 3 18:09:35 JA: have to do with extended descriptions - lets you pause and restart - if not part of the HTML5 spec then UA wont be done natively - if QT is a n agent and say smile allows it then it should do it 18:10:02 MH: is this an author req or is it UA responsibility 18:12:43 MH: is really about ua allows overrides for smile pausing video based on extend descriptions 18:13:12 present+ Richards_Jan 18:13:32 JR: turning iton and off is really what we're talking about here 18:13:43 s/iton/it on 18:13:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:13:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper 18:17:21 JA: we have 4.9.8 re track manipulation - this would cover it, would't it 18:18:58 Perhaps this is a special case of a general rule that the user should be able to override any author settings that would interrupt the normal playing of the primary track, rather than having a success criteria about this for extended video descriptions. 18:20:21 action: hakkinen and jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4 18:20:22 Created ACTION-460 - And jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2010-10-28]. 18:22:46 zakim, close item 2 18:22:46 agendum 2, Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html, closed 18:22:48 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:22:50 3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan] 18:23:03 zakim, take up item 3 18:23:03 agendum 3. "November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc" taken up [from JAllan] 18:23:07 zakim, take up item 3 18:23:07 agendum 3. "November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc" taken up [from JAllan] 18:24:00 JA: When we say something's done we indicate this and don't touch it again 18:24:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101018/ 18:24:46 JA: new edits marked in the new draft in bright red - some things didn't get action items - but need to be done 18:25:25 JA: can we assign sections over the next few weeks to review emails and minutes to see if anything fell of the radar and problems of us getting them done 18:25:39 JA: items not formalised - and need to be 18:26:24 JS: we can do this at the F2F or before... 18:26:53 JS: Save time if things that we have been involved in it would help to know if resolved 18:32:15 -Jan 18:39:16 action: jallan to group issues to be dealt with by the group 18:39:16 Created ACTION-461 - Group issues to be dealt with by the group [on Jim Allan - due 2010-10-28]. 18:39:29 zakim, close item 3 18:39:29 agendum 3, November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc, closed 18:39:31 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:39:32 4. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 18:39:42 -sharper 18:39:44 -Kim_Patch 18:39:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:39:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper 18:39:56 zakim, please part 18:39:56 leaving. As of this point the attendees were jallan, Greg, Jan, Kim_Patch, sharper, Jeanne 18:39:56 Zakim has left #ua 18:40:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:40:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper 18:41:21 rrsagent, please part 18:41:21 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-actions.rdf : 18:41:21 ACTION: jallan to add google instant information to the IER for 2.1.2 [1] 18:41:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc#T17-35-18 18:41:21 ACTION: hakkinen and jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4 [2] 18:41:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc#T18-20-21 18:41:21 ACTION: jallan to group issues to be dealt with by the group [3] 18:41:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc#T18-39-16