IRC log of ua on 2010-10-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:11:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:11:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc
16:11:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:11:24 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:11:24 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes
16:11:25 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:11:25 [trackbot]
Date: 21 October 2010
16:17:05 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html
16:17:18 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda
16:17:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', JAllan
16:17:22 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
16:17:22 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:17:23 [Zakim]
1. HTML 5 and keyboard access [from kford]
16:17:24 [Zakim]
2. update: HTML5 Bug 10709: @title should be a required attribute for FRAME and IFRAME in HTML5 from Gregory J. Rosmaita
16:17:27 [Zakim]
... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0019.html [from kford]
16:17:30 [Zakim]
7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford]
16:17:32 [Zakim]
8. Action Item Review [from kford]
16:17:34 [Zakim]
9. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan]
16:18:04 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
16:18:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1, HTML 5 and keyboard access, closed
16:18:06 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:18:07 [Zakim]
2. update: HTML5 Bug 10709: @title should be a required attribute for FRAME and IFRAME in HTML5 from Gregory J. Rosmaita
16:18:12 [Zakim]
... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0019.html [from kford]
16:18:19 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
16:18:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2, update: HTML5 Bug 10709: @title should be a required attribute for FRAME and IFRAME in HTML5 from Gregory J. Rosmaita
16:18:24 [Zakim]
... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0019.html, closed
16:18:29 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:18:33 [Zakim]
7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford]
16:23:38 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html
16:32:08 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
16:32:08 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:32:09 [Zakim]
7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford]
16:32:12 [Zakim]
8. Action Item Review [from kford]
16:32:14 [Zakim]
9. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan]
16:32:17 [Zakim]
10. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan]
16:33:03 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda order is 9, 7, 6, 10
16:33:03 [Zakim]
ok, JAllan
16:33:13 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
16:33:13 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:33:15 [Zakim]
9. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan]
16:33:18 [Zakim]
7. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from kford]
16:33:21 [Zakim]
10. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan]
16:33:24 [Zakim]
8. Action Item Review [from kford]
16:34:24 [JAllan]
Agenda+ November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudoactions, etc
16:36:58 [JAllan]
zakim, item 9=1
16:36:58 [Zakim]
agendum 9 replaced
16:37:11 [JAllan]
zakim, item 7=2
16:37:11 [Zakim]
agendum 7 replaced
16:37:29 [JAllan]
zakim, item 11=3
16:37:29 [Zakim]
agendum 11 replaced
16:37:43 [JAllan]
zakim, item 10=4
16:37:43 [Zakim]
agendum 10 replaced
16:37:52 [JAllan]
zakim, item 8=5
16:37:52 [Zakim]
agendum 8 replaced
16:38:00 [JAllan]
zakim, show agenda
16:38:00 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:38:01 [Zakim]
9. 1
16:38:01 [Zakim]
7. 2
16:38:01 [Zakim]
10. 4
16:38:01 [Zakim]
8. 5
16:38:01 [Zakim]
11. 3
16:38:57 [JAllan]
zakim, clear the agenda
16:38:57 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
16:39:24 [JAllan]
agenda+ Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html
16:39:57 [JAllan]
agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html
16:40:30 [JAllan]
Agenda+ November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc
16:40:55 [JAllan]
agenda+ Action Item Review
16:41:11 [JAllan]
agenda+ Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html
16:41:26 [JAllan]
regrets: KFord
16:59:54 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:42 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:49 [Zakim]
+jallan
17:01:33 [Zakim]
+Greg
17:01:43 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:02:03 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:02:03 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:02:17 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:02:35 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:02:35 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:02:41 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:02:50 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:02:51 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:03:01 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:03:01 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:03:03 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:03:47 [Zakim]
+??P4
17:04:02 [sharper]
zakim, ??P4 is sharper
17:04:02 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:04:11 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:05:31 [JAllan]
regrets+PLauke
17:05:39 [JAllan]
zakim, show agenda
17:05:39 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:05:40 [Zakim]
1. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan]
17:05:43 [Zakim]
2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
17:05:47 [Zakim]
3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
17:05:50 [Zakim]
4. Action Item Review [from JAllan]
17:05:52 [Zakim]
5. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan]
17:07:11 [JAllan]
chair: JAllan
17:07:21 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
17:07:21 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
17:07:25 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:07:36 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:07:36 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:07:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:07:56 [sharper]
present+ Hakkinen_Mark
17:08:08 [sharper]
present+ Harper_Simon
17:08:28 [sharper]
present+ Allan_James
17:08:36 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:08:51 [JAllan]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20019864-264.html
17:09:12 [mhakkinen]
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-October/028818.html
17:09:16 [sharper]
zakim, save agenda
17:09:53 [Zakim]
ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-agenda.rdf
17:10:00 [sharper]
present+ Spellman_Jeanne
17:10:13 [sharper]
present+ Patch_Kim
17:10:29 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:10:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:11:36 [sharper]
zakim, agenda?
17:11:36 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:11:37 [Zakim]
1. Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html [from JAllan]
17:11:39 [Zakim]
2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
17:11:43 [Zakim]
3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
17:11:46 [Zakim]
4. Action Item Review [from JAllan]
17:11:48 [Zakim]
5. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan]
17:11:59 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
17:11:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:12:08 [Greg]
I had two thoughts on Google Instant: (a) User needs to be able to disable it, along with all other non-user-requested changes (side effects); (b) When the UA begins and ends any update, how is the user notified through the UI and AT notified programmatically?
17:13:10 [sharper]
Do we have this kind of Auto Suggest List in the UI covered
17:15:44 [Greg]
Interesting to consider the idea of an "auto-suggested" attribute on content, so that AT can special-case how it's handled. (Auto-suggested text would presumably also be selected, but is a special case of selected text.)
17:16:11 [sharper]
JA: How should this indicate something new has appeared?
17:16:23 [Greg]
That would be a new attribute for acessibility API for communicating content to assistive technology.
17:17:46 [sharper]
present+ Lowney_Greg
17:21:11 [sharper]
GL: don't we already say users should turn off non-user initiated side effects...
17:21:29 [sharper]
JA: isn't this turn off unwanted messages
17:25:57 [Greg]
So in many ways this is really just a special case of the general situation where content or UI changes and the UA has to expose this programmatically through accessibility API so that the AT can decide whether and how to notify the user, highlight the changes, etc.
17:27:15 [sharper]
JA: This would be covered by a change of state discussed in 2.1.2
17:28:48 [sharper]
MH: I'd say that it would fail 2.1.2
17:29:10 [sharper]
JA: Is it covered or do we need something new?
17:29:40 [Greg]
From the user's perspective, as it should be conveyed through standard-control equivalences to assistive technology, the input box is in fact a drop-down combo-box, and when the user starts typing the drop-down list portion is changed from hidden to displayed. It should not matter that it's implemented as a table or what, as long as the appropriate equivalence is exposed.
17:29:48 [sharper]
All: Covered in 2.1.2
17:30:22 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html covered in 2.1.2
17:33:18 [Greg]
When using a platform accessibility API such as MSAA, one can represent a complex set of controls as equivalent to a single control such as a drop-down combobox, including noting state changes such as the drop-down portion becoming hidden or visible, changes to focus and selection within the drop-down list portion, etc. Does ARIA allow exposing at this complex, functional level as well?
17:34:04 [sharper]
JA: Some of this should go in the IER for 2.2
17:34:53 [sharper]
GL: Will ask this to the PF list as they do ARIA.
17:35:18 [JAllan]
action: jallan to add google instant information to the IER for 2.1.2
17:35:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-459 - Add google instant information to the IER for 2.1.2 [on Jim Allan - due 2010-10-28].
17:41:45 [sharper]
SH: If its configurable on/off then it conforms to our guidelines.
17:46:38 [JAllan]
2.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including user interface, rendered content, generated content, and alternative content, make available the name, role, state, value, and description via a platform accessibility architecture.
17:49:11 [Greg]
Something to look into: do we need to change 2.1 to explicitly discuss notifying AT about element creation and destruction, as well as state changes that are covered by 2.1.6, etc.
17:49:22 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:49:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html, closed
17:49:23 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
17:49:24 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 2
17:49:25 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:49:28 [Zakim]
2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
17:49:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Google Instant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0023.html, closed
17:49:34 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:49:37 [Zakim]
2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
17:49:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:49:45 [JAllan]
zakim, show agenda
17:49:45 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:49:46 [Zakim]
2. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
17:49:50 [Zakim]
3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
17:49:52 [Zakim]
4. Action Item Review [from JAllan]
17:49:54 [Zakim]
5. Issues raised on mailing list (Gregory stuff) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0099.html [from JAllan]
17:50:32 [sharper]
JA: JS and KF where present
17:50:55 [JAllan]
zakim, open item2
17:50:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:51:25 [sharper]
JS: PF has a media subgroup - made list of requirements in video accessibility in HTML5 - sent to us for comments
17:51:34 [JAllan]
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Media_Accessibility_Checklist for the draft
17:51:48 [sharper]
JS: extensive comments and responses - in the UAAG guidelines and if we covered it
17:52:09 [sharper]
JS: Also a comp list of everything we wanted to consider
17:54:12 [sharper]
JS: Lets take these one at a time
17:54:29 [JAllan]
DV-11 Support the simultaneous playback of both the described and non-described audio tracks so that one may be directed at separate outputs (e.g., a speaker and headphones).
17:54:59 [JAllan]
possible AAA
17:55:53 [Zakim]
-Greg
17:56:47 [Zakim]
+Greg
17:57:46 [sharper]
JA: we need to take a look at the 3 or 4 things we may need a success criteria for - and re-evaluate
18:00:52 [sharper]
Discussion re CC and the terms used such as 'gapless cues'
18:01:41 [sharper]
GL: seems like the UA should just implement them appropriately based on the spec if they exist on it
18:02:52 [sharper]
MH: if they are rendered by JScript then it is WCAG if it is browser based in the case of say HTML5 then it may be us
18:03:51 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:04:14 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:04:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
18:04:43 [Zakim]
+??P4
18:04:58 [sharper]
zakim, ??P4 is sharper
18:04:58 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:05:24 [Greg]
Questioned why CC-2 is a + while CC-3 is a N/A--seems they're very parallel.
18:08:05 [sharper]
EVD 2 and 3
18:09:35 [sharper]
JA: have to do with extended descriptions - lets you pause and restart - if not part of the HTML5 spec then UA wont be done natively - if QT is a n agent and say smile allows it then it should do it
18:10:02 [sharper]
MH: is this an author req or is it UA responsibility
18:12:43 [sharper]
MH: is really about ua allows overrides for smile pausing video based on extend descriptions
18:13:12 [sharper]
present+ Richards_Jan
18:13:32 [sharper]
JR: turning iton and off is really what we're talking about here
18:13:43 [sharper]
s/iton/it on
18:13:57 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:13:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:17:21 [sharper]
JA: we have 4.9.8 re track manipulation - this would cover it, would't it
18:18:58 [Greg]
Perhaps this is a special case of a general rule that the user should be able to override any author settings that would interrupt the normal playing of the primary track, rather than having a success criteria about this for extended video descriptions.
18:20:21 [JAllan]
action: hakkinen and jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4
18:20:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-460 - And jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2010-10-28].
18:22:46 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
18:22:46 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html, closed
18:22:48 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:22:50 [Zakim]
3. November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
18:23:03 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
18:23:03 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc" taken up [from JAllan]
18:23:07 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
18:23:07 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc" taken up [from JAllan]
18:24:00 [sharper]
JA: When we say something's done we indicate this and don't touch it again
18:24:09 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101018/
18:24:46 [sharper]
JA: new edits marked in the new draft in bright red - some things didn't get action items - but need to be done
18:25:25 [sharper]
JA: can we assign sections over the next few weeks to review emails and minutes to see if anything fell of the radar and problems of us getting them done
18:25:39 [sharper]
JA: items not formalised - and need to be
18:26:24 [sharper]
JS: we can do this at the F2F or before...
18:26:53 [sharper]
JS: Save time if things that we have been involved in it would help to know if resolved
18:32:15 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:39:16 [JAllan]
action: jallan to group issues to be dealt with by the group
18:39:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-461 - Group issues to be dealt with by the group [on Jim Allan - due 2010-10-28].
18:39:29 [sharper]
zakim, close item 3
18:39:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3, November F2F -assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc, closed
18:39:31 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:39:32 [Zakim]
4. Action Item Review [from JAllan]
18:39:42 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:39:44 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:39:49 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:39:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:39:56 [sharper]
zakim, please part
18:39:56 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were jallan, Greg, Jan, Kim_Patch, sharper, Jeanne
18:39:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:40:04 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:40:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:41:21 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-actions.rdf :
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to add google instant information to the IER for 2.1.2 [1]
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc#T17-35-18
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: hakkinen and jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4 [2]
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc#T18-20-21
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to group issues to be dealt with by the group [3]
18:41:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/21-ua-irc#T18-39-16