00:20:57 Judy has joined #html-a11y
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01:25:37 Judy has joined #html-a11y
02:18:37 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
02:47:33 MikeSmith_ has joined #html-a11y
03:58:37 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
04:05:06 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
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14:57:48 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:57:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-irc
14:57:56 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:57:56 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
14:58:01 + +1.650.468.aaaa
14:58:11 zakim, call janina
14:58:11 ok, janina; the call is being made
14:58:13 +Janina
14:58:31 +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:58:38 zakim, who's here?
14:58:38 On the phone I see +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita
14:58:40 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Marco_Ranon, eric_carlson, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, Judy, MikeSmith, janina, silvia, trackbot
14:58:58 regrets: Laura_Carlson,Martin_Kliehm,Kenny_Johar,Sylvia_Pfeiffer,Denis_Boudreau
14:59:06 JF has joined #html-a11y
14:59:13 zakim, aaaa is JF
14:59:13 +JF; got it
14:59:19 zakim, aa is John_Foliot
14:59:19 sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aa'
14:59:27 +Eric_Carlson
14:59:28 zakim, who's here?
14:59:28 On the phone I see JF, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson
14:59:30 On IRC I see JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, Marco_Ranon, eric_carlson, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, Judy, MikeSmith, janina, silvia, trackbot
14:59:33 zakim, JF is John_Foliot
14:59:35 +John_Foliot; got it
14:59:41 +Michael_Cooper
15:01:05 Zakim, call Mike
15:01:05 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:01:07 +Mike
15:01:52 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0229.html
15:02:04 trackbot, start meeting
15:02:06 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:08 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:08 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:02:09 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:09 Date: 09 September 2010
15:03:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:03:48 chair: Mike_Smith
15:04:37 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:04:41 scribenick: oedipus
15:05:05 TOPIC: Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:05:20 action-57?
15:05:20 ACTION-57 -- Paul Cotton to provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN
15:05:22 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/57
15:05:33 MS: don't think paul will be on today's call
15:06:05 action-57 due 2010-09-16
15:06:06 ACTION-57 Provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) due date now 2010-09-16
15:06:44 JS: concerned about some lagging actions around drag and drop and accesskey in terms of closing out bugs by 1 October 2010 as determined by the HTML WG chairs
15:06:53 MS: bug open on drag and drop
15:07:02 MS: don't know about accesskey/access-*
15:07:08 action-54?
15:07:08 ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN
15:07:08 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/54
15:07:10 action-54?
15:07:10 ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN
15:07:10 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/54
15:07:33 JF: Judy needs to get clarification from NCAM -- want to use materials as part of test suite
15:07:37 action-47?
15:07:37 ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 -- due 2010-09-02 -- OPEN
15:07:37 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47
15:07:52 JF: discussed in yesterday's Media subteam telecon
15:08:16 MS: not sure if SteveF has done that -- filed a large number of ARIA bugs
15:08:32 action-28 due 2010-09-16
15:08:32 ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list due date now 2010-09-16
15:08:47 s/has done that/has completed action item/
15:08:56 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix (been up since 2010-07-29)
15:10:08 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28
15:10:15 action-28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28
15:10:34 agenda+ access(key)
15:11:06 TOPIC: funneling public feedback to the HTML Accessibility Task Force
15:11:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0206.html
15:11:37 jongund has joined #html-a11y
15:11:43 chairs recommend use of public-pfwg-comments list as stated in work statment, but that list is for feedback on PFWG deliverables
15:12:35 GJR: believe that Janina and MCooper suggest that public-html-a11y should be used instead
15:13:43 JS: wrong place for TF members -- confounds PFWG's ability to track formal responses to PF work; want to open up public-html-a11y to public posting so that if someone needs to address TF, can send to public-html-a11y -- arguments both pro and con
15:14:13 q?
15:14:26 JS: rammification of using public-html-a11y -- people won't receive follow-up; could be flooded with email; prolliferation of responses
15:14:41 JS: on other hand, need mechanism other than bugzilla to have technical discussions
15:14:47 dsinger_ has joined #html-a11y
15:14:58 +q
15:15:04 JS: simple point of clarification that can be responded to quickly -- encourage some to join public-html-a11y to work on issues
15:15:15 q?
15:15:21 ack JF
15:15:40 JF: isn't part of A11y TF req that one has to be member of HTML WG and the W3C patent policy
15:15:54 JF: if not members, have to CC on response
15:16:06 Zakim, this is a11y
15:16:06 ok, dsinger_; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:16:09 MC: 1 of primary reasons didn't make list publically writable initially
15:16:30 q?
15:16:31 GJR: notes that bugzilla is the culprit when it comes to proliferation of posts
15:16:56 JF: don't want public-html-a11y to be a "catch-all" place where people expect responses
15:17:13 MS: non-members cannot post to list; could monitor them, but that is a burden
15:17:40 MS: other list can be used -- www-style list for technical discussions open to public, for example
15:17:55 Trackbot, start meeting
15:17:55 Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, start meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:18:00 MS: 1st need to figure out if what we are doing now is broken -- if not, don't change
15:18:35 MS: wanted HTML WG members to be more involved in TF -- allowing them to post to TF list without being part of TF doesn't give incentive to join
15:18:49 JS: but then they are cut off from the discussion/threads
15:19:00 MS: what is problem - does it need fixing?
15:19:28 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:19:46 MS: some people sent cross-posted emessages to public-html and public-html-a11y -- threat of starting 2 threads -- not recommended that post to both public-html and public-html-a11y
15:20:16 MS: if post message to a member list and a public list, those reading message on member list reply only to member list
15:20:46 MS: solution is not to cross post -- restrict to one list or another
15:20:55 q+
15:21:15 ack oe
15:21:17 GJR: but public-html-a11y is publically reviewable
15:21:17 ack oedipus
15:21:49 GJR: people can use archive to keep up on threads and review responses
15:21:49 q?
15:21:58 +Rich
15:22:16 Trackbot,
15:22:16 Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:22:35 Trackbot, prepare telcon
15:22:35 Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, prepare telcon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:22:36 CS: 2 thoughts: 1) reason don't have separate public comments list; 2) tweak reply-to header to include poster
15:22:39 q?
15:22:55 MS: can we change the headers?
15:23:00 MC: think so, but not sure
15:23:22 MS: will check into header tweaking through admin interface
15:23:38 JS: more we talk about this, the more i find my mind changing --
15:23:51 trackbot, prepare telcon
15:24:08 JS: problem may just be guidance -- don't want posting to public-pfwg-comments -- we could use wai-xtech@w3.org
15:24:54 MS: not sure necessary for people to send comments to the public-html-a11y -- a lot of people think have too many mailing lists already
15:25:41 MS: TF is intended to answer to PFWG and HTML WG -- not ment to be a public facing group that people expect they can comment to
15:26:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:26:24 CS: if have existing low volume list, that would make sense
15:27:02 MC: catch-22 problem with wai-xtech -- used for many different purposes; no formal way at moment to separate threads -- if someone wants to monitor, could be an option
15:27:14 CS: unlikely that comments on HTML5 will get lost on wai-xtech
15:27:47 JF: members of HTML WG should be able to post to HTML A11y TF -- if HTML WG members want/need advice, they should be able to post to public-html-a11y
15:28:01 JS: can mail support member of PFWG and HTML WG?
15:28:26 MC: allowing anyone in HTML WG to post to public-html-a11y not so easy
15:28:46 CS: change bounce message with instructions on how to get post posted to public-html-a11y
15:28:57 MC: doesn't require approval, but does require processing
15:29:07 MC: extended invitation to HTML WG several times
15:29:41 JF: goal -- get things done right -- if HTML WG member wants to query HTML A11y TF and engage in dialog, should be able to do so
15:30:21 CS: 1) give HTML WG posting permissions to pubilc-html-a11y or make clear why bounce happening
15:31:10 ACTION: MikeSmith - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html
15:31:10 Created ACTION-58 - - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-09-16].
15:31:11 action: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list
15:31:11 Created ACTION-59 - Check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-09-16].
15:32:23 MS: can do a copy and paste of email addresses - have categories of mailing lists: subscriber (receive mail) accept list (not subscribed but allowed to post to it) -- might have to effect change manually, but can do that
15:32:24 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:32:33 TOPIC: media subteam update
15:32:35 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist
15:33:36 JF: user reqs piece done; distilled down into a table "Media Accessibility Checklist" have to go through user reqs and match to existing technologies -- basically need to figure out what technologies are impacted by different reequirements
15:34:11 JF: captioning section: 1 user req is "render time synchronized cues..." -- API issues, user preferences, rendering (visual/audio/textual)
15:34:33 JF: tag user reqs to reorder and reshift based on technology reqs
15:35:03 JF: huge need to get this done for yesterday -- media subteam committed to knuckle down, but need specific feedback from non-subteam members
15:35:21 +??P14
15:35:34 Q+
15:35:40 JF: even if only have 15 minutes, please consult http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist and tag with a11y requirements; goal is to complete over weekend so can discuss at TF telecon next week
15:35:56 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:36:07 hello
15:36:30 JF: browsers waiting on us also looking at timeline to integrate into browsers; urgency comes from fact that UA devs will be shortly supporting multimedia components of HTML5 and we need to provide them with the reqs and advice
15:36:56 JF: if don't have time to edit wiki, put into email and send to JF
15:37:01 q?
15:37:07 ack ds
15:37:08 q?
15:37:13 Zakim, unmute dsinger
15:37:13 dsinger was not muted, dsinger_
15:37:31 RS: people reviewing ATAG 2.0 currently; took me a long time to process checklist
15:38:10 JF: not a trivial task, but an essential one -- time constraints outside our control, but if don't complete, we will be left standing on the station
15:39:02 DS: CSS WG meeting a few weeks ago; pointed out talked about doing media queries to deliver appropriate media -- try to resurrect idea -- will make sure mention Media Queries in new charter
15:39:11 RS: continue work begun with DS on this?
15:39:37 DS: not necessary; will follow up in CSS WG
15:40:20 JF: could you or someone from CSS WG take some time to look at matrix to ascertain what can be handled by CSS
15:40:39 DS: read reqs document over weekend -- there was one obvious one that jumped out at me; will tag on wiki page
15:40:43 q?
15:41:16 JS: presentation to wider group torpedoed by VOIP problems; rescheduled to discuss in next hour's telecon
15:41:26 JS: will present media reqs on HTML WG telecon today
15:42:10 JS: important that user reqs should not be assumed by wider group -- will ask if something there that shouldn't be there or if something is missing that should be there -- don't want to conflate the 2 issues
15:42:42 JS: now is time to speak of user reqs - take-away: this is reqs list against which we are engineering
15:43:30 JS: might be useful for this TF to vote on media requirements list -- subteam thinks has gotten feedback from whole TF, but may want to log a formal resolution recommending the media a11y reqs
15:43:48 GJR: would a CfC be appropriate
15:44:22 MS: need to know from media subteam if there is anything else other than what you outlined -- everyone please look at reqs and ensure that nothing is missing
15:44:46 TOPIC: ARIA mappings subteam update
15:45:11 SF: email to public-html with bugs and responses (rejected or accepted)
15:45:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/thread.html#msg87
15:46:06 SF: mapping team identified non-controversial issues; others we need to discuss -- haven't had meeting for a few weeks, but will meet next week to discuss outstanding issues we need to respond to
15:46:20 MS: gotten chairs' attention on this; MJS been very responsive recently
15:46:50 MS: if have delays, let me know and i'll try to expedite
15:46:55 TOPIC: canvas update
15:47:02 MS: status?
15:47:55 RS: nothing new -- as said in last call we have proposal, but feel that hixie is giving us the run-around; focusing on ARIA integration right now - have someone working to resolve issues, once resolved, will return to canvas
15:48:25 MS: chairs announced timeline (deadline to log bugs is 2010-10-01)
15:48:56 RS: lets get ARIA thing done first; editorial things on ARIA side to help -- still areas of tension which need to be resolved
15:49:16 JS: discussed last week in terms of next steps: what will caret drawing API entail?
15:49:29 JS: discussed in leadership meeting with chairs, so is on their radar
15:49:42 RS: can also look at apple's proposal about UI events
15:50:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JulSep/0006.html
15:50:20 q?
15:50:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JulSep/att-0006/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
15:51:04 RS: privacy concern: exposing specific AT to browser may compromise user
15:51:15 RS: would like Cynthia to look at this
15:51:31 RS: device indepent access on mobile devices less dependent on keystrokes
15:51:57 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JulSep/att-0006/UserInterfaceIndependence.html Zakim User Interface Independence for Accessible Rich Internet Applications
15:52:02 TOPIC: drag and drop
15:52:22 RS: gez travelling and on vacation
15:52:26 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7721
15:52:37 SF: question: is HTML5 dnd implemented in most browsers?
15:52:45 SF: is it implemented accessibly anywhere
15:52:52 -Cynthia_Shelly
15:52:55 SF: underscores issue
15:53:02 MS: huge interoperability problem
15:53:04 q+
15:53:12 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:53:23 MS: if want to use HTML5 dnd willhave hard time getting to work across multiple browsers
15:53:34 MS: hard to know how to fix to get to work interoperably
15:53:42 D&d is implemented but broken in most browsers, particularly the event model
15:54:05 MS: need a fix
15:54:55 RS: proposal from apple includes device independent drag and drop http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JulSep/att-0006/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
15:55:41 GJR: refers to previous discussions and work on dnd
15:56:16 RS: apple's proposal needs to be examined from dnd perspective; idea is UA would determine gestures or keystrokes to execute drag and everything else; selection to drag needs work
15:56:55 GJR: since there isn't a copy and paste API in HTML5, either one needs to be added or the workflow for ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5
15:57:00 TOPIC: Access-asterisk
15:58:54 http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/html/wiki/access
15:59:18 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
15:59:27 -dsinger
15:59:37 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
16:00:08 JS: clarification on HTML WG bug freeze -- 1 October 2010 -- lends urgency to our efforts
16:00:20 GJR: should i file http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs as a bug or as an issue (need/requirements for verbose descriptor)
16:01:58 MS: decision policy doesn't provide us with way to directly escalate something to be an issue -- can provide spec text itself for consideration
16:02:18 MS: issue is that long descriptor isn't addressed in spec at all now -- will put on next week's agenda
16:02:28 JS: will add to agenda for discussion next week
16:02:31 -Rich
16:02:32 -??P4
16:02:33 [ADJOURNED]
16:02:35 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:40 -Eric_Carlson
16:02:40 Zakim, drop Mike
16:02:41 Mike is being disconnected
16:02:42 -Mike
16:02:42 -Michael_Cooper
16:02:44 -Janina
16:02:46 -John_Foliot
16:02:46 janina has left #html-a11y
16:02:47 -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:49 -??P14
16:02:51 - +44.207.391.aabb
16:02:53 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:58 Attendees were +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Mike, +44.207.391.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly, dsinger, Rich
16:03:02 eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
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16:03:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:03:20 zakim, bye
16:03:20 Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:34