15:39:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:39:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-CSS-irc
15:39:49 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:39:49 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
15:39:55 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:42:50 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:48:25 <glazou> dbaron: do you have plans to extend -moz-*-gradient() to the CSS 3 values of <position> ?
15:48:37 <glazou> (as in CSS 3 Images spec...)
15:50:02 <dbaron> you mean the new background-position syntax?
15:50:04 <dbaron> glazou, ^
15:50:25 <dbaron> I think we'd do that at the same point we implemented that new background-position syntax
15:50:27 <dbaron> which we should probably do
15:50:38 <dbaron> but don't have immediate plans for
15:50:42 <dbaron> (I'm not even sure if there's a bug on it.)
15:52:50 <glazou> ok thx
15:53:17 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
15:53:52 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:54:00 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:05 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:55:47 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:56:16 <glazou> european zakim bridge is down...
15:56:51 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
15:57:05 <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:05 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:57:36 <glazou> plinss: do you think you can conference me in again ? zakim european bridge is down
15:58:03 <plinss> sure, give me a minute
15:58:56 <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aabb
15:59:12 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aacc
15:59:23 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
15:59:30 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa has glazou
15:59:31 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:59:33 <plinss> zakim, plinss is [plinss]
15:59:33 <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
15:59:42 <plinss> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
15:59:42 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:59:53 <TabAtkins_> zakim, who is here?
15:59:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc
15:59:55 <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
15:59:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see TabAtkins_, bradk, oyvind, dsinger_, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kennyluck, szilles, Martijn, jdaggett, boblet, arronei, krijnh, lhnz, karl, tabatkins, Bert,
16:00:04 <glazou> dsinger_: zakim's health is really poor...
16:00:06 <Zakim> ... fantasai, plinss, gsnedders, jgraham, Hixie, trackbot
16:00:16 <TabAtkins_> zakim, aacc is me
16:00:26 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:28 <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
16:00:32 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:58 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:24 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:01:29 <dsinger_> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei
16:01:37 <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
16:01:47 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aadd
16:01:52 <smfr> Zakim, aadd is me
16:02:00 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
16:02:15 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaee
16:02:25 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:02:43 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
16:02:54 <howcome> howcome has joined #CSS
16:03:17 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aagg
16:03:32 <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me
16:03:32 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:03:33 <dbaron> I'm just getting "this passcode is not valid"
16:03:40 <glazou> dsinger_: the UK one ?
16:03:50 <dsinger_> Too many incogniti!
16:05:02 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, bradk
16:05:02 <dbaron> ok, now Zakim isn't even prompting me for a passcode
16:05:04 <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
16:05:20 <dbaron> it's just hanging up
16:05:36 <TabAtkins_> Zakim just hates you, dbaron.
16:05:37 <glazou> dbaron: happens to me all the time when zakim does not hang after 1st ring
16:05:48 <dbaron> and now it says the passcode is not valid again
16:06:09 <plinss> zakim, aaff is howcome
16:06:09 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:06:12 <glazou> maybe we should bring Zakim's health as a TPAC topic
16:06:43 <boblet> oh hey fantasai I just pinged you on Twitter
16:06:48 <dbaron> I didn't bring my headset for my cellphone to work, so there's not much point in my calling in with it
16:07:00 <dbaron> So I'm just going to give up.
16:07:07 <Zakim> +Bert
16:07:09 <dbaron> I guess I'll try calling in from home next week.
16:07:13 <plinss> zakim, aaee is sylvaing
16:07:13 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:07:59 <dsinger_> Zakim, aabb is fantasai
16:07:59 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:08:31 <glazou> Bert: no luck for me :(
16:09:10 <glazou> lol
16:09:15 <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
16:09:22 <boblet> nn all
16:09:27 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
16:09:38 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:09:47 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I sent an email a few minutes ago about a workshop in Japan that I'd like to have on the agenda.
16:10:25 <dbaron> No idea why it worked the 30th time and not the first 29.
16:10:50 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Open issues.  First up, 101.
16:10:50 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:11:09 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Says we were waiting for a testcase from Arron?
16:11:14 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Test case was created.
16:11:24 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anyone had a chance to review the testcase yet?
16:11:47 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I didn't know about it had been done yet.
16:12:17 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I just created them in the last two days.  I just sent an email about them to the list.
16:13:20 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There were testcases in the original email.  Is this testcase for the rule 3, 5, or 7 case?
16:14:48 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There were already testcases, so I'm not sure why this issue had testcase creation assigned to it.  I think what was needed was proposed text to adjust the spec.
16:15:13 <TabAtkins_> plinss: From the minutes, all that was discussed was testcases.
16:15:32 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I had an action item to write text, but I said I couldn't get to it for a little while.  Arron volunteered to write some test cases instead.
16:15:45 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Will you or someone else be able to step in and write some text for this?
16:16:04 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Probably not in the next few weeks, so if someone else can do it that would be good.
16:16:10 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I can try and write text for it.
16:16:39 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next issue, 121.  Bert sent in a proposal on this one.
16:17:05 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I responded to this a few minutes ago.  I'm fine with the changes, though I'm not sure the "Generally..." bit is true.
16:18:09 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0411.html
16:18:14 <dbaron> is the proposal
16:19:41 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:19:48 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:19:52 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I'm not really objecting to the change, I just think some of the wording adjustments in the proposal I don't think are quite right.
16:19:54 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:19:54 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:19:55 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
16:20:02 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:20:07 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think it would help if it clarified that the paragraph in question had only one font; then I think it'd be true.
16:20:17 <fantasai> Bert, that should be s/block-level box/block container/
16:20:23 <TabAtkins_> Bert: That's what the "etc" was meant to cover, but I can make it explicit.
16:20:35 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: That might be worth mentioning.
16:21:05 <Bert> (Fantasai, isn't that already in the issues list?)
16:21:48 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept Bert's changes for issue 129, with the slight edit suggested by dbaron.
16:21:59 <TabAtkins_> s/issue 129/issue 121/
16:22:10 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next up is issue 129.
16:22:54 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I need to merge 129 with 139.  It's straightforward; there's an email from Yves.
16:23:27 <TabAtkins_> plinss: issue 142.
16:24:16 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Could we talk about issues that need WG discussion, rather than overseeing Bert's edits?
16:24:36 <TabAtkins_> plinss: I'm trying to just go over the ones that looked like they needed work.
16:24:45 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: But we only have half an hour, and have a bunch of issues to look at.
16:24:55 <TabAtkins_> plinss: let's skip ahead then.  158?
16:25:47 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0458.html
16:25:50 <dbaron> I'm fine with the edits
16:26:15 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'm fine with this edit, though there's a seperate note about something later in this thread in issue 203.
16:26:18 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I think it's fine.
16:26:26 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 158.
16:26:41 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 159.
16:27:22 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:27:31 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: This should be completely editorial.  I've discussed it with Arron and Michael.
16:27:49 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: What says that margins are non-adjoining due to min-height?
16:28:27 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: "The top and bottom margins of a box with used height other than 0".
16:29:01 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: This is a change to say that max-height has an effect.  If max-height is 0 and height is non-0, the margins would collapse here, while that wasn't true before.
16:29:10 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Any clue what impls actually *do* with that?
16:29:27 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I don't have a testcase specifically for that.
16:30:27 <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22border%3A%20solid%3B%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22margin%3A%202em%3B%20max-height%3A%200%3B%20height%3A%205em%22%3E%0A%20%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
16:30:36 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I thin kit would be good to write a testcase to see what impls actually do.
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16:31:51 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Opera, Konqueror, Chrome, and Firefox do not collapse margins if max-height is 0 and height is non-0.
16:32:06 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I see consistency across the board here.
16:33:04 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There's a bullet point about "bottom margin of element and botto margin of last in-flow child" and the one after that - the problem with those two is that they change the latter changes the conditions of the former in the situation where all the margins collapse with each other.
16:33:11 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I don't understand.
16:33:25 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: The question is, does the bottom margin of a last child collapse with the bottom margin of its parent?
16:33:35 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: In particular, the case where the parent has non-zero min-height, but auto height.
16:34:04 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The last condition requires no children.
16:34:37 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Then there's a discontinuity if you have children or not, which is odd and I think might be a change from the spec.
16:34:59 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The fourth bullet has to be changed to say 0 min-height and auto height, but I don't know how that'll interact with stuff from the CSS3 box model.
16:36:02 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'll update the proposal to explicitly fix that part.
16:36:07 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anything else with this one?
16:36:34 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next, issue 172.
16:38:42 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:39:12 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I did make a normative change, about honoring explicit widths.
16:39:22 <Zakim> + +33.9.50.89.aahh
16:39:41 <glazou> Zakim, aahh is me
16:39:41 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:40:07 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Seems fine.
16:40:36 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 172.
16:41:08 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:41:15 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 173?
16:41:21 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I've worked on it, but it's a mess.
16:41:32 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Also, Henri responded to it this morning, so there's still work to be done on it.
16:41:37 <TabAtkins_> plinss: We'll come back to it.  Issue 187?
16:42:21 <TabAtkins_> I like the text now, though I have no clue about it matching reality or whatnot.
16:43:09 <fantasai> Reality seems kind of confused when last I tested it :)
16:44:17 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I like it.  Seems precise.
16:44:28 <bradk> :)
16:44:53 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 187.
16:45:16 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 191.
16:45:41 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I agree with this.
16:45:55 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Do we say anywhere that markers create a line box?
16:46:02 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We say they *may*.
16:47:03 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 192.
16:47:14 <TabAtkins_> plinss: At the ftf we decided the 3rd issue was invalid, but there was some pushback on that?
16:48:38 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There's a *lot* of references in Anton's email, that you have to read in the right order to know what is being talked about.
16:48:54 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'll produce an "executive summary" of all the references, so we can know what's being referred to exactly.
16:48:59 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 197.
16:49:07 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Boris just replied to this and gave an example:
16:49:08 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0198.html
16:50:16 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: That's why we don't hoist inline clearing up to its containing block normally.  Can't recall why we did it in this case.
16:50:26 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Because we thought that's what the prose was trying to say.
16:51:22 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Since IE is the only browser that implements run-in, can we get a quick test-case to see what it does here?
16:52:10 <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%22%3EParagraph%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A
16:52:12 <oyvind> we do too...
16:52:13 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I think there's going to need to be a few testcases for this.  I can put them together so we can see them next week.
16:53:12 <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%202em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%22%3EParagraph%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20s
16:55:53 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:55:55 <oyvind> (opera matches IE8 on those as far as I can see)
16:56:02 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Can we do the rest of these tests off-call?
16:56:06 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 199.
16:56:43 <fantasai> arronei: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%202em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%20solid%20silver%3
16:57:08 <fantasai> arronei: Question is, does clearance move the silver box in both cases?
16:57:12 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I sent an email to the list yesterday to define that lineboxes are *not* created in the relevant situations, rather than the somewhat circular prose currently in the spec.
16:57:15 <fantasai> arronei: Or the silver box in one case and the text in the other?
16:58:07 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0190.html - Tab's proposal
16:58:36 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0194.html may also be helpful
17:00:22 <smfr> groovy
17:00:25 <glazou> uuuuuuh
17:01:04 <fantasai> oyvind, not out-of-flow :)
17:01:46 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: If a linebox isn't created, what are the positions of the things that would have otherwise been there?
17:02:12 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:22 <smfr> sorry gtg
17:02:23 <smfr> smfr has left #css
17:02:44 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: You could instead say that such lineboxes are only used to calculate the position of boxes that would be in the linebox, but not for any other purpose.
17:02:52 <oyvind> fantasai, I'm not sure if you're joking or if that's actually defined somewhere :)
17:02:54 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I will send an updated proposal that says something to that effect today.
17:03:59 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Last thing was issue 203, which is a testable change in margin collapsing.  Arron and I talked with Michael in Oslo and it seemed that implementations actually agreed on it.
17:04:04 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:04:05 <TabAtkins_> plinss: Okay, we'll talk about that next week.
17:04:06 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:04:06 <Zakim> -arronei
17:04:08 <Zakim> -glazou
17:04:08 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:04:11 <Zakim> -bradk
17:04:14 <Zakim> -howcome
17:04:16 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:04:16 <Zakim> -Bert
17:04:18 <Zakim> -[plinss]
17:04:37 <fantasai> oyvind: that's actually the definition
17:04:42 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
17:04:43 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:04:45 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +1.858.216.aaaa, +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc, glazou, TabAtkins_, arronei, +1.408.636.aadd, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, +1.650.275.aagg,
17:04:50 <Zakim> ... bradk, howcome, Bert, sylvaing, fantasai, dbaron, SteveZ, +33.9.50.89.aahh
17:05:50 <oyvind> but is it assumed to be obvious what counts as "out-of-flow"?
17:09:31 <oyvind> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#img-floateg "non-positioned in-flow blocks"
17:22:56 <fantasai> oyvind: if you want to file an issue, you must send an email
17:32:54 <oyvind> yeah, I'll do that tomorrow or something
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