00:28:52 Judy has joined #html-a11y 00:40:40 Judy has joined #html-a11y 00:48:17 janina has left #html-a11y 01:28:48 Judy has joined #html-a11y 01:42:15 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 01:43:13 Judy has joined #html-a11y 02:00:26 Judy has joined #html-a11y 02:21:58 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 15:00:06 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 15:00:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-irc 15:00:08 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:00:08 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 15:00:10 Zakim, this will be 2119 15:00:10 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now 15:00:11 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:00:11 Date: 15 July 2010 15:00:19 zakim, call janina 15:00:19 ok, janina; the call is being made 15:00:33 zakim, this is 2119 15:00:33 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM 15:00:39 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:00:39 On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper 15:01:17 paulc has joined #html-a11y 15:02:19 +kliehm 15:03:12 Zakim, call Mike 15:03:12 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 15:03:13 +Mike 15:03:49 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 15:03:50 Chair: Janina_Sajka 15:03:50 agenda: this 15:03:50 agenda+ Identify Scribe 15:03:50 agenda+ Actions Review 15:03:50 agenda+ Subteam Reports 15:03:52 agenda+ Remaining Deliverables & Timelines Discussion 15:03:52 regrets+ Cynthia_Shelly 15:03:54 agenda+ TF at TPAC 2010 15:03:55 regrets+ Marco_Ranon 15:03:56 agenda+ CAPTCHA survey: 15:03:58 agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup at the WG Diescussion 15:04:00 agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs & Bug triage 15:04:02 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe 15:04:04 agenda+ be done 15:04:32 Zakim, Mike is me 15:04:32 +MikeSmith; got it 15:04:43 Ben has joined #html-a11y 15:05:09 JF 15:05:23 oedipus has joined #html-a11y 15:05:31 +??P3 15:05:37 zakim, ??P3 is Ben_Caldwell 15:05:37 +Ben_Caldwell; got it 15:05:58 I am still booting up and will join by phone ASAP. 15:06:02 +Gregory_Rosmaita 15:06:44 Actions Review Mike C: there is some Canvas Actions what shouel we do? 15:06:58 Janina - await Steve F & Rich S to join the call 15:07:06 Action 22 15:07:06 Sorry, bad ACTION syntax 15:07:22 action-22 due 1 Nov 15:07:23 ACTION-22 Organize joint discussion of testing task force and html a11y task force due date now 1 Nov 15:07:33 Advance to Nov 1 and turn into Tech Pleneray issue 15:07:39 +Rich 15:07:57 +[Microsoft] 15:08:05 Action-44 15:08:08 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc 15:08:08 +paulc; got it 15:08:13 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y 15:08:38 Mike C: is this an actual action item, or just a reminder 15:08:41 ? 15:08:49 close action-44 15:08:49 ACTION-44 - monitor status of @alt in HTML5 spec; when SteveF's Alt Guidance is published, ensure that what is in SteveF's note supersedes or corrects HTML5 verbiage; propose changes to HTML5 based on SteveF's alt doc closed 15:08:51 shouold we close it as an action? 15:08:53 Zakim, mute me 15:08:53 MikeSmith should now be muted 15:08:53 agreed 15:09:04 ACTION-46 15:09:37 close action-46 15:09:37 ACTION-46 Work with WAI UAWG to find home for "image analysis heuristics" text from HTML5 spec (HTML WG issue 66) closed 15:10:11 oedipus has joined #html-a11y 15:10:27 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:10:27 On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper, kliehm, MikeSmith (muted), Ben_Caldwell, Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, [Microsoft] 15:10:29 [Microsoft] has paulc 15:10:33 2 15:10:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:10:53 Steve F has a number of actions assigned - will wait for him to join us or defer 15:11:07 3 open actions re: Canvas 15:11:26 close action-12 15:11:26 ACTION-12 Ensure there is a dependency between the HTML5 specification and the HTML 5 2D Context specification to ensure that the author has the ability to set the visible focus, for , to ensure that a magnifier may follow the visual focus. This would be driven by the shadow DOM. closed 15:11:28 regrets+ Kenny_Johar 15:12:35 Rich: is this group just handling HTML, or is it looking at media queries, etc.? 15:12:48 Greg: believes it should be in the PFWG 15:13:00 we should discuss coordination with them 15:13:17 RichL HTML spec suggests do whateve the media queries says 15:13:32 Eric: would like to be involved in that effort as well 15:14:24 close action-17 15:14:24 ACTION-17 Define CSS attributes and meta data for alternative content selection closed 15:14:50 -MikeSmith 15:15:07 MikeSmithX has joined #html-a11y 15:15:22 Actions section completed 15:15:24 action-17: migrated to PF ACTION-692 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/692 15:15:24 ACTION-17 Define CSS attributes and meta data for alternative content selection notes added 15:15:26 close action-19 15:15:26 ACTION-19 Work with the Canvas API subteam to include and API for caret tracking that drive magnfication closed 15:15:37 SubTeam reports 15:15:38 rich, there was a thrad on changing the media group tactile to have 2 media types tactual (non-natural language based tactile images) and braille (natural language based tactile output) -- gottfried (i think) and i had an exchange on it and janina liked the idea but thought the verbiage was too confusing -- will follow-up via email 15:15:45 scribenick: oedipius 15:15:48 scribenick: oedipus 15:16:12 Zakim, call Mike 15:16:12 ok, MikeSmithX; the call is being made 15:16:14 +Mike 15:16:28 JF: Media Sub-Team update: making good progress turning requirements into technical requirements 15:16:35 Zakim, Mike is me 15:16:35 +MikeSmithX; got it 15:16:39 JF: worked thorugh 50% of requirements 15:16:42 Zakim, mute me 15:16:42 MikeSmithX should now be muted 15:16:43 +??P9 15:16:56 JF: encourage people outside of subteam to weigh in and offer feedback and comments as things progress 15:17:03 Stevef has joined #html-a11y 15:17:32 JF: need to have technical requirements and user requirements stable enough to advance to the HTML WG next week -- perhaps 10 days left before moving reqs higher up the HTML5 food chain 15:17:54 Thanks to Greg 15:17:56 zakim, +??P9 is Steve_Faulkner 15:17:56 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9' 15:18:01 zakim, ??P9 is Steve_Faulkner 15:18:01 +Steve_Faulkner; got it 15:18:06 Steve F on ARIA mappings 15:18:12 not much has happened in the past week 15:18:23 have already provided a change proposal and a bug 15:18:38 HTML chairs have requested bug be expedited 15:18:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:19:14 Janina: wants to know about the change Proposal 15:19:20 s/scribenick: oedipius// 15:19:47 now that we have a bug, se should now have an agenda item to vote a resolution to advance the change proposal 15:19:56 i/JF/scribe: John_Foliot 15:20:06 i/JF/scribenick: JF 15:20:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:20:14 spec text exists, but what is need is feedback and consensus around the change proposal 15:20:24 SteveF asking about getting a poll around this 15:20:58 i/Thanks to Greg/scribenick: JF 15:21:00 Janina: appears process is sticking point - work is ready 15:21:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:21:10 can we bring this work to the group for next week? 15:21:21 SteveF: what does this entail? 15:21:40 Janina: should we run a survey on this? 15:21:45 s/a thrad on changing/a thread on changing/ 15:21:52 SteveF: makes it a more formal 'support' from the TF 15:22:24 hopefully people will read the proposal before voting - not yet had any response on the draft change propsal 15:22:49 SteveF: suggests overall question: after reviewing the changes, do you support them? 15:23:05 are there more than one question to be asked here? 15:23:53 Rich: everything is in the proposal, (needs some minor edits) 15:24:13 SteveF: we want people to review the text we choose to replace, based upon the proposal 15:24:45 PaulC: not sure if a survey is the best forum for that question/decision 15:24:54 strong plus 1 to CfC 15:24:56 likely could happen via emails 15:25:06 make TF members read the text before commenting 15:25:34 Rich: reason for suggesting a poll is that if people have an issue with a certain section they could highlight 15:25:46 Janina: this could be highly granular quickly 15:26:10 SteveF: the main thrust is that the current starting point is whlely unsuitable in the current spec 15:26:24 what we don't want to get into is a point-by-point comparrison 15:26:34 but rather seeks an alternative starting point 15:26:44 it goes to philosphy more than actual text 15:27:16 regrets+ : Denis_Boudreau 15:27:31 Do we support an approach that suggests that ARIA does not introduce a confromance issue 15:27:46 Janina : lets keep it simple 15:28:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:28:27 SteveF: we have already put it out for comment, thinks a Chair should ask for 'closure' 15:28:55 s/SubTeam reports/TOPIC: SubTeam Reports/ 15:29:00 Janina: Discussion on remaining deliverables and time-lines 15:29:09 talking about TPAC as a deadline 15:29:26 some discussion that this might slip slightly 15:29:36 i/talking about TPAC/TOPIC: TPAC 2010 Meeting Planning 15:29:39 but we are targetting to be comple in this calendar year 15:29:49 ARIA, drag-n-drop... 15:30:09 does anyone think that DnD have issues that will stall beyond year end 15:30:42 the 1 or 2 others are media a11y 15:30:51 and the other is "accesskey" 15:31:00 perhaps looking at a name-change 15:31:07 to access-command 15:31:31 what PF will be forwarding is a set of user requirements 15:31:35 GJR notes that these are set of requirements for satisfying navigational requirements, not on specific attributes or elements -- those will be decided upon by TF 15:31:37 q+ 15:31:47 with no recommendation on *how* it is to be met 15:31:56 expect work to start on that within the week 15:32:27 anyone have any thoughts on what work will entail? anyone see a reason why this cannot be completed by end of October? 15:32:47 Greg: have started to take what is in HTML5 re: accesskey to see what (if anything) is lacking 15:33:01 -kliehm 15:33:02 will report back to Tf 15:33:16 looking at accesskey, tabindex and command 15:33:35 this is what is in, this is what is out, and can it (they) meet the requirements 15:33:45 Greg: I beleive we can get this done and fixed 15:33:53 ack ste 15:34:12 SteveF: what happens with the whole text alternatives issue 15:34:13 q+ to note that we got feedback from Gez on drag-and-drop http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0056.html 15:34:26 q- 15:34:31 Janina: that is still on the agenda 15:34:36 Zakim, unmute me 15:34:36 MikeSmithX should no longer be muted 15:34:44 Zakim, unmute Mike 15:34:44 MikeSmithX was not muted, MikeSmith 15:34:57 while we still have deliverables, the only one we are not sure we can deliver in time for TPAC is the media issue 15:34:59 Zakim, who's muted? 15:34:59 I see no one muted 15:35:15 everything else appears on target 15:35:51 MikeS: want to mention about DragnDrop that we have seen some feedback 15:35:56 q- 15:36:00 q- 15:36:05 ack Mike 15:36:05 MikeSmithX, you wanted to note that we got feedback from Gez on drag-and-drop http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0056.html 15:36:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:36:37 Janina: Task Force at TPAC - hoping to get this group together then and there 15:36:55 depends on our agenda at that point 15:37:01 i/SubTeam reports/TOPIC: SubTeam Reports/ 15:37:03 Next: CAPTCHA survey 15:37:36 Janina: this has been discussed, and this might be resolving iteslf through changes in the spec 15:38:02 Greg: I think we need to keep an eye on this, and if it is out of the next 2 publications, we can rest easy 15:38:07 keep in our back pocket 15:38:47 Discussion now: we as TF need to become a little more formal about our reccomendations to the WG 15:39:05 we have already sent a number up, and are in process at the WG 15:39:20 encourage all to continue to work on these issues at the higher WG level 15:39:34 if there is a survey we can continue to particpate 15:39:49 Janina: we should discuss how to track these proposals now 15:39:51 i/Discussion now:/TOPIC: TF relationship to HTML WG & Keeping 1 up-to-date with the other 15:40:18 q+ 15:40:34 we have a responsibility to follow through and tracking our recommendations 15:40:55 is the wiki sufficient to track these issues? 15:41:12 q? 15:41:15 ack ste 15:42:15 SteveF: Laura has been asking about some ARIA attributes and feedback 15:42:26 on the list, with little feedback outside of SteveF 15:42:55 SteveF post "rationale for role=presentation" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0059.html 15:42:56 SteveF thinks however that ARIA-labeledby is not appropriate 15:43:03 and provided his rationale 15:43:29 laura is still looking for other rationales as this is/was a request from the chairs 15:43:37 q+ 15:44:16 correction: aria-label is under question, not labeledby 15:44:57 -Rich 15:45:18 Greg: the text in the spec is not in line with discussion. believes that it needs to be naked attributes without the aria prefix 15:45:27 JF: why? 15:45:54 Greg: believes there are a number of aria properties should be non-prefixed in the spec 15:46:33 JF: saying primary reason to remove prefix is ease-of-authoring? no matter what we call is secondary to functionality needed 15:46:54 JF: have aria deployed today -- in effect, abandoning something trying to establish 15:47:03 JF: could introduce confusion 15:47:14 q? 15:47:21 ack o 15:47:35 q+ 15:48:07 JF: GJR saying change name of attribute -- but already have implementation into new name with aria- prefix 15:48:15 JF: less author confusion with aria- prefix 15:49:03 JF: get GJR's rationale, but flip side of coin is need to say "don't forget to do these things" and here is how 15:49:52 JF: worried that opening a huge new can of worms -- aria- prefix allows us to advance them all forward -- don't want to go down a rathole 15:50:37 JS: if make change, have to pull back rec and go with another one - could be politically problematic 15:50:38 +1 ! 15:50:40 SteveF: agrees with JF 15:50:54 SF: advises gregory to bring up in TF 15:50:59 What material changes with the name change? 15:51:13 Zakim, mute me 15:51:13 MikeSmithX should now be muted 15:51:38 Greg: aria-* carries a weight with it. what does it mean to the average developer 15:52:03 we need to ensure that things remain backward compatable 15:52:34 if @alt is going to be deprecated or made obsolete then we need to ensure native attributes 15:53:03 SteveF: nobody is suggesting to make ALT obsolte, but rather we want to provide additional means of achieving the end goal 15:53:19 it's about increased choice, not change 15:54:24 -[Microsoft] 15:54:34 Greg: believes that the WG has been putting up barriers for ARIA adoption, and so wants things to be modular 15:55:15 JaninaL if we send a rec forward, and then decide later that it is not correct, we lose cred 15:55:52 Janina: this group voted out the ALT text issue a few weeks back 15:56:05 GJR also doesn't want ARIA "frozen" at 1.0 in HTML5 15:56:12 there was a rationale for labeled a few weeks back 15:56:28 SteveF: Laura keeps asking for that rationale, and it has not come forward 15:58:05 SteveF: it is more than just a name-change, it is about introducint something new to HTML5 15:58:40 Greg: feels that ARIA is a cludge targeted at AT 15:59:03 SteveF: user agents can be encouraged to provide equiv. functionality to user as well 15:59:41 s/feels that ARIA is a cludge targeted at AT/feels that use of ARIA in HTML5 that is not native is a kludge 15:59:55 Janina: must cut this short as it is the top of hour. Does anyone else want to re-visit this guidance? 16:00:18 suggest moving this discussion onto the list for further follow-up 16:01:01 Suggests making follow-ups on status of recommendations as part of weekly agenda - seems to have met approval 16:01:15 final item - how to follow up on outstanding open bugs 16:01:43 i/final item/TOPIC: Bug Report Triage & Handling SubTeam Proposal 16:01:43 Mike C and laura logical bug shepards, but looking for other volunteers 16:02:06 -Steve_Faulkner 16:02:23 -Ben_Caldwell 16:02:24 Zakim, drop me 16:02:24 -Michael_Cooper 16:02:24 -Eric_Carlson 16:02:26 MikeSmithX is being disconnected 16:02:26 -MikeSmithX 16:02:27 -Janina 16:02:38 janina has left #html-a11y 16:02:41 Laura has joined #html-a11y 16:02:50 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper, kliehm, MikeSmith, Ben_Caldwell, Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, paulc, MikeSmithX, 16:02:50 Zakim has left #html-a11y 16:02:53 ... Steve_Faulkner 16:02:55 zakim, please part 16:03:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:03:44 Ben has left #html-a11y 16:05:00 rrsagent, please part 16:05:00 I see no action items