IRC log of webfonts on 2010-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:02:18 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #webfonts

14:02:18 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-irc

14:02:41 [Vlad]

rrsagent, bookmark

14:02:41 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-irc#T14-02-41

14:03:01 [tiro_j]

tiro_j has joined #webfonts

14:03:53 [erik_]

trying to connect

14:04:11 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #webfonts

14:04:19 [jdaggett]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:04:27 [Zakim]

sorry, jdaggett, I don't know what conference this is

14:04:37 [Zakim]

On IRC I see tiro_j, RRSAgent, erik_, sergeym, jfkthame, jdaggett, cslye, tal, Vlad, sylvaing, trackbot

14:06:00 [Vlad]

Zakim, list

14:06:00 [Zakim]

I see Team_W3M()8:00AM, IA_Fonts()10:00AM, UW_DAP()10:00AM active

14:06:01 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time are IA_MFWG()3:00AM, SW_CG()9:00AM, WAI_(AGE TF)9:30AM, Team_(xhtml)13:45Z

14:06:27 [Vlad]

Zakim, this conference is IA_Fonts

14:06:27 [Zakim]

ok, Vlad; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM

14:06:44 [Vlad]

Zakim, who is on the phone

14:06:44 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Vlad

14:07:10 [Vlad]

Zakim, who is here?

14:07:10 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +1.781.970.aaaa, +1.443.895.aabb, [IPcaller], +1.510.816.aacc, +1.425.882.aadd, +1.250.668.aaee, +1.206.324.aaff

14:07:12 [Zakim]

On IRC I see tiro_j, RRSAgent, erik_, sergeym, jfkthame, jdaggett, cslye, tal, Vlad, sylvaing, trackbot

14:07:35 [jdaggett]

zakim, [IPcaller] is jdaggett

14:07:36 [Zakim]

+jdaggett; got it

14:07:36 [erik_]

still wrestling with phone, it hangs up after entering the access code.

14:09:22 [jfkthame]

it seems like it's just not hearing me enter the code

14:09:27 [sylvaing]

to attach your phone number: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3

14:09:29 [jfkthame]

it asks again, and then just hangs up

14:09:37 [jdaggett]

csyle: using the format "zxxx, xxx is c

14:10:09 [jdaggett]

cslye: you're the only 510 number, right?

14:10:18 [cslye]

That's correct.

14:10:28 [cslye]

So, let me try this...

14:10:47 [cslye]

Zakim, aacc is cslye

14:10:47 [Zakim]

+cslye; got it

14:11:04 [jdaggett]

zakim, who is noisy?

14:11:15 [Zakim]

jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.970.aaaa (80%)

14:11:29 [erik_]

unable to connect - same here.

14:11:44 [erik_]

star / zero doesn't go anywhere either.

14:13:01 [sylvaing]

trackbot-ng, start telcon

14:13:03 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:13:05 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3668

14:13:05 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start 13 minutes ago

14:13:06 [trackbot]

Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference

14:13:06 [trackbot]

Date: 16 June 2010

14:14:38 [cslye]

Vlad: Should we discuss origin restrictions or metadata first?

14:15:55 [Vlad]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Jun/0092.html

14:17:28 [ChrisL]

ChrisL has joined #webfonts

14:18:08 [erik_]

despite repeated tries, I'm unable to connect

14:18:20 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

14:18:20 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-irc#T14-18-20

14:18:54 [jfkthame]

also unable to connect - i can watch the irc channel but no phone connection

14:19:57 [sylvaing]

1) there is no security benefit here.

14:19:57 [ChrisL]

I can connect via the US number. France number seems unable to accept touch tones

14:20:16 [erik_]

trying

14:20:20 [sylvaing]

2) same-origin is not defined in HTML5 but in CORS. CORS depends on HTML5 for the definition of origin and origin matching

14:20:54 [cslye]

I connected to the Boston number with no problem, fwiw.

14:22:04 [sylvaing]

not opposed

14:22:07 [erik_]

I could connect via the uS number

14:22:20 [howcome]

howcome has joined #webfonts

14:23:27 [ChrisL]

Anne (CORS editor) opposes using CORS for WOFF

14:24:04 [ChrisL]

Howcome: is same-origin for WOFF or for other formats?

14:24:07 [sylvaing]

Font vendors do not want to license raw fonts so that shouldn't be an issue

14:24:18 [sylvaing]

at least for some time

14:24:28 [cslye]

I think the point is that WOFF is a "protected" format and deserves the mild protection it gets from same-origin, whereas "raw" fonts don't need it.

14:24:56 [ChrisL]

howcome, you mentioned a range of opinions in Opera - what are the others?

14:25:50 [ChrisL]

howcome: others say its good, for example to save bandwidth

14:26:30 [cslye]

When we refer to the "security" argument, we mean attacks and such, as opposed to theft?

14:26:38 [sylvaing]

cslye: yes

14:29:37 [sylvaing]

notes that TypeKit et al. rely on cross domain font access so the licensing benefit depends on who the vendor is

14:32:49 [jdaggett]

typekit uses data urls

14:33:02 [jdaggett]

i.e. they are not affected by this

14:33:15 [sylvaing]

jdaggett: for Firefox, yes

14:33:30 [cslye]

I think Typekit delivers EOT files for IE, though.

14:33:31 [erik_]

this is the license FSI links to in their current WOFF releases: http://www.fontfont.com/eula/license_webfonts_v_1_0.html

14:33:37 [sylvaing]

jdaggett: there still are other browsers :) and other font providers who link across domain e.g. ascender

14:33:46 [ChrisL]

2.3. Font Software File Protection. You must ensure, by applying reasonable state-of-the-art measures, that other websites cannot access the Font Software for display (e. g. by preventing hotlinking and blocking direct access to the Font Software via .htaccess or other web server configurations).

14:33:53 [ChrisL]

http://www.fontshop.com/help/licenses/fontfont/

14:33:57 [jdaggett]

sure

14:35:14 [ChrisL]

sg: if browsers do this, font vendors are willing in return to llosen their licenses

14:35:40 [cslye]

Not just loosen their license, but would be more inclined to offer web font licenses in the first place.

14:36:16 [ChrisL]

erik: makes it much easier for us certainly

14:36:38 [erik_]

(that's John, not Erik0

14:36:52 [ChrisL]

... current licensing is in flux and depends on how WOFF spec ends up

14:37:12 [ChrisL]

s/John/erik/

14:37:41 [Vlad]

installing adequate technical protection measures that restrict the use and/or access to the Font Software and/or Derivative Works, for instance by binding an EOT font to the Licensed Websites, utilizing JavaScript or access control mechanism for cross-origin resource sharing and/or protecting a sIFR Flash file against use on other websites than Licensed Websites by restricting domain access only to Licensed Websites.

14:38:18 [ChrisL]

ack syl

14:38:30 [ChrisL]

zakim, unmute sylvaing

14:38:30 [Zakim]

sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is

14:38:37 [ChrisL]

zakim, this is font

14:38:37 [Zakim]

ok, ChrisL; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM

14:38:40 [ChrisL]

zakim, unmute sylvaing

14:38:40 [Zakim]

sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to sylvaing

14:38:43 [Zakim]

+ +1.206.324.aaii

14:41:09 [cslye]

:)

14:41:29 [ChrisL]

vlad: monotype license encourages woff usage

14:42:13 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: generaly positive on same-origin

14:42:26 [ChrisL]

howcome: abstain

14:43:05 [cslye]

Does anyone explicitly object to requiring access control?

14:43:32 [ChrisL]

resolution: same-origin restriction is mandatory for WOFF. modulo editorial changes discussed on the list

14:44:06 [ChrisL]

topic: extension mechanisms

14:44:19 [ChrisL]

topic: f2f

14:44:26 [cslye]

I agree.

14:44:44 [ChrisL]

vlad: majority favour a f2f at typecon in LA

14:45:43 [ChrisL]

chris: will try, but CSS in Oslo next day, also affects howcome, jdagett and sylvaing

14:46:04 [cslye]

My concern with ATypI is that it's closer to TPAC. (Also more difficult for me personally.)

14:46:05 [ChrisL]

vlad: dublin atypi

14:46:33 [ChrisL]

john: can't do dublin

14:46:43 [ChrisL]

cslye: cant do dublin

14:46:48 [ChrisL]

(sep 9-12)

14:47:07 [sylvaing]

will be at TPAC

14:47:08 [ChrisL]

howcome: do we need a physical f2f?

14:47:12 [erik_]

http://atypi.org/03_Dublin

14:47:16 [ChrisL]

vlad: seen as desirable

14:47:32 [erik_]

http://www.typecon.com/

14:47:35 [cslye]

It's possible for me -- but travel budget makes it difficult.

14:48:02 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: is there enough of an agenda to justify travel?

14:48:14 [sylvaing]

if people find themselves in the same spot, they can certainly meet

14:48:27 [ChrisL]

vlad: colocating would capitalize on existing travel

14:48:56 [ChrisL]

chris: can do call-in using a bridge

14:50:07 [ChrisL]

cslye: travel restrictions - good to have the WG there. How can we entice people?

14:50:37 [ChrisL]

vlad: everyone plese restate their travel plans including existing travel

14:51:00 [jdaggett]

would love to come to typecon but with another meeting directly following it, that's tricky

14:51:33 [sylvaing]

same as jdaggett even though it's fewer miles for me

14:52:39 [ChrisL]

chris: some of tpac will be spent in liaison

14:52:52 [tiro_j]

I will be at TypeCon, but not at ATypI, posibly at TPAC

14:53:04 [ChrisL]

vlad: we asked for no overlap with css, can we reschedule?

14:53:12 [sylvaing]

overlap with CSS would be quite unhelpful for 4+ of us

14:53:38 [ChrisL]

action: chris ask tpac organisers to reschedule webfonts to thur/fri at tpac

14:53:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-9 - Ask tpac organisers to reschedule webfonts to thur/fri at tpac [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-06-23].

14:54:30 [ChrisL]

topic: metadata extensions

14:55:09 [ChrisL]

vlad: from discussions so far, etadata as specified in draft seems near consensus. number and type of elements is ok for font vendors

14:55:22 [ChrisL]

... implementors said it was ok even though optional

14:55:43 [ChrisL]

... so we can state consensus on the existing set of standard metadata elements

14:55:58 [ChrisL]

... so then we can discuss extension mechanism only

14:56:09 [ChrisL]

(no objections)

14:56:22 [ChrisL]

howcome: not sure

14:56:46 [ChrisL]

howcome: want to see a complete proposal

14:57:14 [ChrisL]

vlad: can modify for good reason after fpwd

14:57:53 [sylvaing]

doesn't know either but acknowledges that what we have is already being used. that's important

14:58:03 [ChrisL]

vlad: simple key-value is proposed for extensions

14:59:34 [ChrisL]

vlad: localisation is important, tried to be impartial in summary, hope that was clear. but speaking for monotype, opinion is that the solution form jonathan kew was the best one

15:00:11 [ChrisL]

... sergei commented to say it was simple to implement, one pass

15:00:25 [ChrisL]

sergeym: yes

15:00:57 [ChrisL]

vlad: duplication should not cause significant size increase as it compresses well

15:01:41 [ChrisL]

howcome: difficult to discuss now, propose to delay all metadayta out of 1.0

15:02:03 [ChrisL]

vlad: including the standard metadata?

15:02:05 [cslye]

Wouldn't that just create a lot of ad hoc metadata in shipping WOFFs?

15:02:24 [ChrisL]

tal: strongly object, that is the basis we got people to sign on, removing it would be insulting

15:02:38 [ChrisL]

vlad: so please respond on email

15:02:43 [sylvaing]

we could keep what we have and postpone extensibility. I think this is what Hakon is saying ?

15:03:34 [ChrisL]

howcome: yes. just t eh extensibility

15:03:43 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: document what is used now

15:04:08 [ChrisL]

... extensibility comes later

15:04:24 [ChrisL]

... now one is using extensibility right now

15:04:46 [ChrisL]

... so drive to LC, CR. Extend once we have actual requirements

15:05:15 [ChrisL]

howcome: ok with that

15:06:33 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: do we want to delay for uncertain extensibility?

15:06:50 [ChrisL]

vlad: if its in fpwd theyn we get feedback and can take it out if needed

15:06:54 [cslye]

If we want to get use cases for extended metadata for 1.0, we might get that out of TypeCon and ATypI conversations.

15:07:06 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: bar metadata, what other issues do we have?

15:07:10 [ChrisL]

vblad: not many

15:07:25 [ChrisL]

howcome: so lets get fpwd soon

15:08:03 [ChrisL]

vlad: want to have a solution that many of us can live with. if its in the fpwd we can ask for comments. if its not in the draft we can't get comments

15:08:11 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: ok lets get it out there

15:08:37 [ChrisL]

sergeym: font vendors unlikely to want to remove the extensibility

15:09:18 [ChrisL]

cslye; any objection to put it in current draft?

15:09:31 [ChrisL]

sylvaing: current draft represents what is out there

15:09:52 [ChrisL]

Vlad: better to have an extension proposal for people to discuss

15:11:03 [ChrisL]

john: put extensibility as a separate item?

15:11:51 [ChrisL]

chris: putting in extensibility and deleting later if needed is better from a patent policy point of view

15:12:15 [ChrisL]

vlad: lets use next couple of weeks to try to get agreement here. only half a page or so anyway

15:13:13 [jdaggett]

history has been made...

15:13:32 [ChrisL]

howcome: i am willing to let microsoft cast my vote here

15:14:07 [ChrisL]

resolved: fpwd in a couple of weeks with whatever we have consensus on

15:14:17 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:14:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL

15:14:39 [Zakim]

-jdaggett

15:14:40 [Zakim]

- +1.250.668.aaee

15:14:40 [Zakim]

-cslye

15:14:41 [Zakim]

- +31.70.360.aahh

15:14:42 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

15:14:43 [Zakim]

- +1.443.895.aabb

15:14:43 [Zakim]

- +47.21.65.aagg

15:14:44 [Zakim]

- +1.206.324.aaii

15:14:46 [Zakim]

-??P22

15:14:48 [Zakim]

- +1.781.970.aaaa

15:14:50 [Zakim]

- +1.425.882.aadd

15:14:52 [Zakim]

IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended

15:14:54 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.781.970.aaaa, +1.443.895.aabb, +1.510.816.aacc, +1.425.882.aadd, +1.250.668.aaee, +1.206.324.aaff, jdaggett, cslye, +47.21.65.aagg, ChrisL, +31.70.360.aahh,

15:14:57 [Zakim]

... +1.206.324.aaii

15:15:04 [ChrisL]

chair: vlad

15:15:07 [tal]

tal has left #webfonts

15:15:08 [ChrisL]

scribe: chris

15:15:17 [ChrisL]

zakim, list attendees

15:15:17 [Zakim]

sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is

15:15:22 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:15:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL

15:43:59 [jfkthame]

jfkthame has left #webfonts

16:09:25 [sylvaing]

sylvaing has left #webfonts

17:34:06 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #webfonts

18:08:22 [jfkthame]

jfkthame has joined #webfonts