IRC log of hcg on 2010-06-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/04-hcg-irc
- 13:59:07 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs member
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- Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
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- ok, trackbot; I see HTML_CG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
- 13:59:10 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
- 13:59:10 [trackbot]
- Date: 04 June 2010
- 13:59:10 [ddahl]
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- 13:59:21 [ChrisL]
- Chair: Chris
- 13:59:24 [janina]
- zakim, call janina
- 13:59:24 [Zakim]
- ok, janina; the call is being made
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- HTML_CG()10:00AM has now started
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- +Janina
- 13:59:52 [Zakim]
- +Debbie_Dahl
- 14:00:10 [ChrisL]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2010AprJun/0082.html
- 14:00:33 [ddahl]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:00:33 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Janina, Debbie_Dahl
- 14:00:35 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see ddahl, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, ChrisL, kaz, Steven, plinss_, shepazu, trackbot
- 14:00:55 [darobin]
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- +ChrisL
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- +Doug_Schepers
- 14:01:43 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34315/HCG2010telcon/results
- 14:02:50 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
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- ok, Steven; the call is being made
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- +Steven
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- +Lofton_Henderson
- 14:05:19 [ChrisL]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:05:19 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Janina, Debbie_Dahl, ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, Steven, Lofton_Henderson
- 14:05:21 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see lofton, darobin, ddahl, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, ChrisL, kaz, Steven, plinss_, shepazu, trackbot
- 14:05:45 [Zakim]
- +darobin
- 14:05:54 [Steven]
- Scribe: Steven
- 14:07:21 [Steven]
- Topic: Actions items
- 14:07:24 [ChrisL]
- action-32?
- 14:07:24 [trackbot]
- ACTION-32 -- Deborah Dahl to find someone to follow up on scxml implementations from KDE -- due 2010-05-14 -- OPEN
- 14:07:24 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/32
- 14:07:45 [Steven]
- Debbie: The Voice browser WG keeps a list
- 14:07:58 [Steven]
- ... and that summarises all implementations
- 14:08:04 [Steven]
- ... action closed
- 14:08:18 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Voice/#imp-scxml
- 14:08:19 [Steven]
- ... Also, it came up that they might like to present @@ to the HCG
- 14:08:28 [Steven]
- s/@@/scxml
- 14:08:29 [ChrisL]
- s/@@/SCXML/
- 14:08:33 [Bert]
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- 14:08:47 [Steven]
- Debbie: Interested? July 16th or Aug 13
- 14:09:18 [Steven]
- Shepazu: There is a joint TF with SVG
- 14:09:34 [Steven]
- Debbie: I was talking about HCG not SVG
- 14:09:38 [Steven]
- Shepazu: Sorry!
- 14:09:56 [Steven]
- Chris: Yes, why not?
- 14:10:54 [Steven]
- Shepazu: SVG is interested in SCXML in the context of annimation
- 14:11:00 [Steven]
- Debbie: Email them
- 14:11:06 [Steven]
- s/ann/an/
- 14:11:34 [Steven]
- Debbie: Let's use July 16th for the presentation
- 14:11:38 [ChrisL]
- Topic: Media Accessibility Requirements
- 14:11:52 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
- 14:11:52 [janina]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
- 14:12:02 [ddahl]
- Jim Barnett is the editor, Jim Larson is the chair and Kazuyuki is the Activity Lead
- 14:12:07 [Steven]
- Janina: this is in process, mostly complete
- 14:12:15 [Steven]
- ... running a survey on it
- 14:12:20 [janina]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/results
- 14:12:46 [Steven]
- Janina: Trying t ocollect user requirements for accessibility for audio and video
- 14:13:02 [Steven]
- ... how much do we axpect from HTML5 is the question
- 14:13:09 [Steven]
- s/ax/ex/
- 14:14:24 [Steven]
- Janina: If HTML5 becomes the next media platform then accessibility requirements are large
- 14:14:58 [Steven]
- ... we need to provide for the chance that it gets significant use
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- +Plh
- 14:15:22 [Steven]
- Chris: Are these public minutes?
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- +1
- 14:15:37 [Steven]
- Chris: Yes they are
- 14:15:44 [ChrisL]
- minutes will be public
- 14:15:52 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 14:16:25 [Zakim]
- -Lofton_Henderson
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- +Bert
- 14:17:31 [Steven]
- Janina: Since we weren't making progress in accessibility, then just looking at captioning and subtitling isn't sufficient (that is audio description and video description)
- 14:17:31 [ChrisL]
- suggest the difference between captioning and subtitles be explained
- 14:17:43 [Zakim]
- +Lofton_Henderson
- 14:17:55 [Steven]
- Janina: So we need a full user survey of what it would take
- 14:18:17 [Steven]
- ... and be as thorough as possible
- 14:18:27 [Steven]
- ... to get all user requirements
- 14:18:38 [Steven]
- ... leading to technical requirements
- 14:18:54 [Steven]
- ... which are MUSTs and which SHOULDs, conformance, authoring, etc
- 14:19:16 [Steven]
- Janina: The document is a mess in terms of English Language at present
- 14:19:20 [Steven]
- ... needs cleaning up
- 14:19:28 [Steven]
- ... result of many (wiki) authors
- 14:19:40 [Steven]
- ... we are nearly there with user requirements
- 14:19:54 [Steven]
- ... about to start on technical requirements
- 14:21:07 [Steven]
- ... most of what is here has been well vetted and implemented
- 14:22:15 [Steven]
- Janina: THe first section is an overview
- 14:22:20 [Steven]
- s/TH/Th/
- 14:23:01 [Steven]
- ... section 2 is typesd of technology
- 14:23:05 [Steven]
- s/sd/s/
- 14:24:23 [Steven]
- ... there are rules in captioning about which information is useful
- 14:24:54 [Steven]
- ... describing what you could see, and is essential to understanding
- 14:25:19 [Steven]
- ... there are movie theatres equipped with this
- 14:25:32 [Steven]
- ... and hear a track with audio description
- 14:25:54 [Steven]
- ... WHen it was first introduced for TV, people stopped me on the street to tell me about it
- 14:25:59 [Steven]
- s/WH/Wh/
- 14:26:07 [Steven]
- ... used on TV
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- ... then Texted audio descritpion
- 14:26:52 [Steven]
- s/tp/pt/
- 14:27:05 [Steven]
- ... then extended descritpion
- 14:27:26 [Steven]
- ... for instance for lectures; you would pause the video, and listen to the extended description
- 14:28:17 [Steven]
- Janina: Next is clear audio, for people with hearing disabilities (not deafness)
- 14:29:44 [shepazu]
- [I would benefit from this, I think]
- 14:29:56 [Steven]
- [Scribe not scribing things that are in the doc, other than titles]
- 14:30:34 [Steven]
- JChris: This is a new way of presenting the audio? No requirement that all media is clear?
- 14:30:38 [Steven]
- s/J//
- 14:30:42 [Steven]
- Janina: Correct
- 14:31:07 [Steven]
- ... next, Structured content navigation
- 14:32:12 [Steven]
- ... books replaced scrolls, and therefore introduced new types of content structuring
- 14:32:26 [Steven]
- ... probavly new media will have a similar effect
- 14:32:33 [Steven]
- s/vly/bly/
- 14:32:43 [Steven]
- ... DAISY working in this field
- 14:33:12 [Steven]
- ... there are examples of books where you don't start necessarily at the beginning
- 14:33:17 [Steven]
- ... (eg cookbooks)
- 14:33:52 [Steven]
- ... therefore forward and rewind/next and previous can be useful
- 14:35:09 [Steven]
- ... and it is good to be able to control the granularity of forward and back
- 14:37:04 [Steven]
- Janina: next, captioning for the deaf and very hard of hearing
- 14:37:14 [Steven]
- ... mandated in the US since 1988
- 14:37:35 [Steven]
- ... good spillover into mainstream use, such as in noisy bars
- 14:37:53 [Steven]
- ... similar to subtitles
- 14:38:00 [Steven]
- ... but subtitles are translations
- 14:38:22 [Steven]
- ... captioning also captures sounds like gunshots
- 14:38:48 [Steven]
- ... which might be annoying in subtitles
- 14:39:23 [Steven]
- ... There may be more space needed for captioning than the timeline allows
- 14:39:35 [Steven]
- ... therefore you need extended captions
- 14:40:15 [Steven]
- Shepazu: You could use the same mechanism, with different levels, is that what you mean?
- 14:40:18 [Steven]
- Janina: Yes
- 14:40:42 [Steven]
- ... this is my idea, not subject to consensus yet
- 14:41:02 [Steven]
- Janina: Next, Sign Translation
- 14:41:19 [Steven]
- ... someone on screen waving their arms
- 14:41:35 [Steven]
- ... problems with the difference between different regional signing
- 14:42:18 [Steven]
- Janina: Next, transcripts
- 14:42:24 [Steven]
- ... suggested by Microsoft
- 14:42:59 [Steven]
- Janina: Next, System Requirements
- 14:43:08 [Steven]
- ... keyboard access
- 14:43:16 [Steven]
- ... don't require a pointer
- 14:44:13 [Steven]
- ... next, Granularity Level Control for Structural Navigation, which I discussed earlier
- 14:44:39 [Steven]
- ... next, Time Scale Modification, comes from DAISY
- 14:44:54 [Steven]
- ... adjusting playback speed
- 14:45:30 [Steven]
- ... I think slowing things down will be a mainstream hit
- 14:46:00 [Steven]
- ... for instane for people living in language environments that are not their mother tongue.
- 14:46:14 [Steven]
- s/stane/stance/
- 14:46:52 [Steven]
- Janina: Production practice
- 14:47:01 [Steven]
- ... mainly authoring, no spec effects
- 14:47:44 [Steven]
- ... Discovery and activation
- 14:47:58 [Steven]
- ... for alternative content
- 14:49:18 [Steven]
- Janina: use of the viewport
- 14:49:23 [Steven]
- ... for swapping between media
- 14:49:44 [Steven]
- ... parallel use of alternate content on potentially multiple devices in parallel
- 14:50:29 [Steven]
- ... and that's about it
- 14:50:34 [Steven]
- ... glad to hear of things we forgot
- 14:50:48 [Steven]
- Shepazu: Seem to be good cases, I appreciate it
- 14:51:08 [Steven]
- Janina: Next steps, MUSTs and SHOULDs and tech requirements
- 14:51:25 [Steven]
- ... some parts may need SMIL2
- 14:51:38 [Steven]
- ... other parts OK in current browsers
- 14:51:47 [Steven]
- ... small devices are an interesting case
- 14:52:03 [Steven]
- ... might be "if you support this, then you must do this"
- 14:52:22 [Steven]
- ShepazU: Have you looked at things like GOogle TV?
- 14:52:33 [Steven]
- Janina: I do refer to it
- 14:52:41 [Steven]
- s/U/u/
- 14:52:46 [Steven]
- s/O/o
- 14:53:13 [shepazu]
- s/things like GOogle TV?/IPTV, like Google TV?/
- 14:53:16 [Steven]
- Janina: I think this is a major opportunity to get good accessibility in the future
- 14:54:00 [shepazu]
- s/IPTV, like Google TV?/IPTV, and set-top boxes like Google TV?/
- 14:54:01 [Steven]
- ... there is a refresh going on to 508, about use in the government and public-facing websites
- 14:54:08 [Steven]
- ... and another for telephones and TVs
- 14:54:13 [Steven]
- ... not sure if it covers the internet
- 14:54:22 [shepazu]
- q+
- 14:54:27 [Steven]
- ... logins may be required, but maybe not content
- 14:54:44 [ChrisL]
- ack she
- 14:55:34 [Steven]
- Shepazu: Have you reached out to companies who do these things, to see if they want to participate, and have you looked at IP issues?
- 14:55:47 [Steven]
- Janina: Royalty-free should be OK
- 14:55:58 [Steven]
- ... not sure about clear audio
- 14:56:26 [Steven]
- ... we have engaged companies, like DIASY
- 14:56:30 [Steven]
- s/IA/AI
- 14:57:09 [Steven]
- Shepazu: Getting the right people involved provides a strong argument
- 14:58:08 [Steven]
- Janina: We may not have enough involvement on API issues
- 14:59:30 [Steven]
- Shepazu: IPTV people, like Samsung; Philips; Google TV, settop boxes makers, video games consoles, they don't need to be Web people per se, but could benefit from the tech
- 14:59:35 [Steven]
- Janina: Good siggestions
- 14:59:40 [Steven]
- s/sigg/sugg/
- 15:01:12 [Steven]
- Janina: We complained about Web SRT, because it didn't have consensus
- 15:01:25 [plh]
- q+
- 15:01:59 [Steven]
- Shepazu: I think that GOogle TV will be a friend of yours
- 15:02:03 [Steven]
- s/O/o/
- 15:02:12 [Steven]
- plh: Prioritization?
- 15:02:41 [Steven]
- Janina: not the right course. Boil the user reqs to tech reqs, and then decide on MUST, SHOULD, conditional, etc
- 15:03:05 [Steven]
- ... it must be in the spec first
- 15:03:33 [Steven]
- Shepazu: We need IP commitments on MUSTs
- 15:03:42 [Steven]
- Janina: Many we have already
- 15:03:53 [Steven]
- ... the question is whether we need SMIL2 or can we do it with less.
- 15:03:53 [ChrisL]
- q?
- 15:03:58 [ChrisL]
- ack plh
- 15:03:58 [Steven]
- ack plh
- 15:04:37 [Steven]
- Janina: If something is a SHOULD, maybe we can rely on plugin technologies
- 15:05:07 [Steven]
- ... few pieces of content will have all alternatives
- 15:05:26 [shepazu]
- s/We need IP commitments on MUSTs/You might consider developing the formats rather than simply providing a guideline spec, so we can get RF licenses on MUSTs, and so it is clearer to implementers what they should do/
- 15:06:15 [Steven]
- Chris: [scribe missed]
- 15:06:20 [Steven]
- Janina: Good point
- 15:06:33 [Steven]
- Chris: Great run through document, thanks!
- 15:06:59 [Steven]
- Topic: AOB
- 15:07:00 [Steven]
- Shepazu: The audio incubator group has laiunched
- 15:07:08 [Steven]
- ... please contact me for details
- 15:07:10 [ChrisL]
- s/[scribe missed]/Please tell the story about progressive use of acessibility stuff rather than all-or-nothing
- 15:07:38 [Steven]
- Robin: Privacy workshop in London mid July, position papers are due Monday
- 15:07:44 [Steven]
- ... please submit!
- 15:07:46 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/audio/wiki
- 15:07:47 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/audio/
- 15:08:07 [Zakim]
- -Plh
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- -darobin
- 15:08:09 [Steven]
- [ADJOURN]
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- -ChrisL
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- -Lofton_Henderson
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- -Doug_Schepers
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- -Janina
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- -Steven
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- -Debbie_Dahl
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- -Bert
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- HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
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- Attendees were Janina, Debbie_Dahl, ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, Steven, Lofton_Henderson, darobin, Plh, Bert
- 15:08:59 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:08:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/04-hcg-minutes.html Steven
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- ack
- 15:10:12 [Steven]
- Regrets: Daniel_Glazman
- 15:11:24 [Steven]
- s/t ocollect/to collect/
- 15:13:21 [Steven]
- s/things like Google TV?/IPTV, and set-top boxes like Google TV?/
- 15:13:59 [Steven]
- s/acessibility/accessibility/
- 15:14:16 [Steven]
- s/laiunched/launched
- 15:14:29 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:14:29 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/04-hcg-minutes.html Steven
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