14:59:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcg
14:59:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-irc
14:59:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
14:59:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcg
14:59:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
14:59:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_CG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
14:59:34 <trackbot> Date: 12 March 2010
14:59:39 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:40 <Zakim> +Plh
14:59:46 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
14:59:46 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
14:59:48 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:59:48 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #hcg
14:59:59 <Zakim> +Debbie_Dahl
15:00:02 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
15:00:02 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-irc#T15-00-02
15:00:08 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
15:00:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl
15:00:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
15:00:22 <Steven> Steven has joined #hcg
15:00:31 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:41 <paulc> paulc has joined #hcg
15:00:56 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:01:02 <ChrisL> Chair: Chris
15:01:35 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:35 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:01:36 <Zakim> +Steven
15:01:38 <ddahl> zakim, who is here?
15:01:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven (muted)
15:01:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, Steven, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
15:01:46 <Zakim> +ChrisL
15:01:59 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
15:01:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven, ChrisL
15:02:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, Steven, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
15:03:05 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:03:14 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:03:14 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:04:49 <ddahl> scribe: ddahl
15:05:11 <ddahl> topic: action item
15:05:23 <ddahl> close action 47
15:05:52 <ddahl> close action-47
15:05:52 <trackbot> ACTION-47 Ask richard to send message about referencing BCP47 to chairs@w3.org closed
15:05:55 <ChrisL> action-32?
15:05:55 <trackbot> ACTION-32 -- Deborah Dahl to follow up on scxml implementations from KDE -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
15:05:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/32
15:06:09 <ChrisL> action-42?
15:06:09 <trackbot> ACTION-42 -- Chris Lilley to create telcon time WBS survey -- due 2010-01-22 -- OPEN
15:06:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/42
15:06:18 <ddahl> debbie: action 32 should be continued
15:07:36 <ddahl> chris: did check on script for picking times, but seemed complicated
15:07:46 <ddahl> ...action 42
15:09:10 <ChrisL> action-44?
15:09:10 <trackbot> ACTION-44 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to look into funding for browser testing from Web Foundation and NIST -- due 2010-03-31 -- OPEN
15:09:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/44
15:09:23 <ddahl> ...changing to summer time in North America next week, so Europe times will be different for the next two weeks, this will affect our next call
15:09:40 <ddahl> ...action 44, not due yet
15:09:52 <ddahl> topic: deprecating DOMACtivate event
15:10:10 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hypertext-cg/2010JanMar/0031.html
15:10:23 <janina> janina has joined #hcg
15:10:34 <janina> zakim, call janina
15:10:34 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
15:10:35 <Zakim> +Janina
15:10:47 <ChrisL> hi janina we are about todiscuss deprecating domactivate
15:10:58 <ddahl> regrets: Robin Berjon
15:11:10 <janina> zakim, drop janina
15:11:10 <Zakim> Janina is being disconnected
15:11:12 <Zakim> -Janina
15:11:20 <janina> zakim, call janina
15:11:20 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
15:11:21 <Zakim> +Janina
15:11:57 <janina> zakim, drop janina
15:11:57 <Zakim> Janina is being disconnected
15:11:58 <Zakim> -Janina
15:12:01 <ddahl> chris: seem to have the correct people here
15:12:07 <janina> zakim, call janina
15:12:07 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
15:12:09 <Zakim> +Janina
15:13:12 <Zakim> -Janina
15:13:13 <janina> zakim, drop janina
15:13:13 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'
15:13:18 <janina> zakim, call janina
15:13:18 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
15:13:20 <Zakim> +Janina
15:13:24 <ddahl> chris: HTML, WAI, XForms, SVG mention it
15:13:36 <ddahl> debbie: not in VoiceXML or MMI
15:14:31 <ddahl> chris: may not be directly referenced in WAI specs, but "click" is very mouse-specific
15:14:40 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/adaptable/StatesAndProperties-20051106.html
15:15:08 <ddahl> ..."click" is easier to generate than "activate", so could rely on it
15:15:33 <ddahl> janina: some take the position that "click" is the generic "activate"
15:15:44 <ddahl> ...others want the semantic distinction
15:16:42 <ddahl> chris: if DOMActivate is deprecated, could modify the documentation for "click" to describe its semantics as equivalent to "activate"
15:17:54 <ddahl> doug: using a keyboard, tab to a link or button, if you hit spacebar or enter, would generate a DOMActivate event but not a "click" event, but now in current browsers you do generate a "click" event
15:18:26 <ddahl> ...if UA supports both DOMActivate and click, you could distinguish between them
15:18:43 <ddahl> janina: no one has come up with different behavior for the two cases
15:19:42 <ddahl> doug: touchscreen and pen interfaces raise issues for possible other kinds of events, so there might be a number of different ways to activate something
15:20:23 <ddahl> ...WebApps WG will be talking about other kinds of interfaces, but thinks that we'll have to solve the issue of activation in another way
15:21:03 <Steven> q+
15:21:05 <ddahl> ...we could resurrect DOMActivate if we need to
15:21:33 <ddahl> ...even in deprecating it, we're actually defining it better than before
15:22:15 <ddahl> ..."alternate input device" spec needs to consider these issues
15:22:15 <ChrisL> ack ste
15:22:59 <ddahl> steven: the concern is that in 10 years time we will start hearing the opposite
15:23:01 <ChrisL> q+
15:23:39 <ddahl> ...it's good that browser vendors have made click interoperable, but what's the problem with keeping DOMActivate around as well
15:24:00 <ddahl> ...some specs have existing content, why take DOMActivate away?
15:24:04 <ChrisL> ack chr
15:24:34 <ddahl> chris: deprecating means that it should be supported but new content shouldn't use it
15:25:11 <ddahl> ...now click is widely implemented, activate is sporadically implemented
15:26:06 <ddahl> ... most content seems to be looking for a click event
15:26:28 <ddahl> ...not really deprecating, but changing focus and best practices
15:26:38 <ddahl> doug: deprecation is a warning to authors
15:27:11 <paulc> q+
15:27:12 <ddahl> ...that a feature will be removed in the next version
15:27:22 <ddahl> ...doesn't tell implementations what to do
15:27:31 <paulc> deprecation usually means the feature MIGHT be removed in the future
15:27:56 <paulc> in my experience the actualy removal decision is usually left to a later decision
15:28:09 <paulc> s/actualy/actual/
15:29:05 <ddahl> (discussion about whether XForms defines or references DOMActivate)
15:30:23 <ddahl> doug: DOMActivate is a general event across languages
15:31:19 <ddahl> ...we should adapt to where implementations are at a certain time
15:32:05 <ddahl> ...DOMActivate is harming accesibility because we're telling authors to do something that doesn't work, authors who use DOMActivate are making their content less accessible
15:32:19 <ChrisL> q?
15:32:29 <ChrisL> ack paul
15:32:48 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:33:15 <ddahl> paul: why does "deprecate" mean "will be removed" not "might be removed" in next version?
15:33:32 <Zakim> +Shepazu
15:33:53 <ddahl> ... is a warning about a possible future action, not a certain one
15:33:56 <ChrisL> zakim, who is talking?
15:34:09 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (11%)
15:34:31 <ddahl> ...the decision is left to the future version
15:34:54 <paulc> ack paulc
15:34:54 <ddahl> doug: I agree with deprecate meaning "might be removed"
15:35:45 <ddahl> ...this decision was made in consultation with accessibility
15:36:10 <ddahl> janina: in general approves, but not all key people were in on discussion
15:36:26 <ddahl> ...in accessibility we're interested in the functionality, not so much what it's called
15:36:54 <ddahl> chris: it could be clarified that name is historical and clarify what the exact semantics is
15:36:59 <ddahl> janina: that would help
15:37:15 <ddahl> doug: I think I covered those concerns in the documentation
15:37:34 <ddahl> chris: if people are hung up on the name that can be explained
15:37:40 <ddahl> ...in documentation
15:38:10 <ddahl> janina: WAI-PF took an action to offer an opinion but need more discussion
15:38:51 <ddahl> action: janina to schedule a WAI-PF call on deprecating DOMActivate and report back to HCG
15:38:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Schedule a WAI-PF call on deprecating DOMActivate and report back to HCG [on Janina Sajka - due 2010-03-19].
15:39:55 <ddahl> doug: trying to clarify difference between DOMActivate and activation behavior.
15:40:14 <ddahl> ...activation behavior is made even more explicit in DOM3 events, one
15:40:32 <ddahl> ...is to throw a click event
15:41:11 <ddahl> doug: we aren't removing DOMActivate from DOM 2 events or even DOM 3 events
15:41:47 <ddahl> ...did not remove it, but just deprecated
15:42:07 <Steven> q+
15:42:18 <ddahl> ...if XForms needs DOMActivate, you could keep referring to DOM 2 or define it yourself
15:42:21 <ChrisL> ack ste
15:42:46 <ddahl> steven: then it becomes a different event with the same name
15:43:35 <ddahl> doug: DOMActivate is different XForms is different from HTML because it's not bound to a UI in XForms
15:44:56 <ddahl> doug: DOMActivate wasn't specified well in DOM 2, properties not defined
15:44:59 <ddahl> ...well
15:45:27 <ddahl> steven: we list the ones we're expecting but don't define them
15:45:41 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-eventgroupings
15:45:54 <ChrisL> DOMActivate
15:45:54 <ChrisL>     The activate event occurs when an element is activated, for instance, thru a mouse click or a keypress. A numerical argument is provided to give an indication of the type of activation that occurs: 1 for a simple activation (e.g. a simple click or Enter), 2 for hyperactivation (for instance a double click or Shift Enter).
15:45:54 <ChrisL>         * Bubbles: Yes
15:45:54 <ChrisL>         * Cancelable: Yes
15:45:55 <ChrisL>         * Context Info: detail (the numerical value)
15:46:13 <ddahl> ...we want the same event, we don't want different languages to have the event "DOMActivate" with different meanings
15:46:58 <ChrisL> click
15:46:58 <ChrisL>     The click event occurs when the pointing device button is clicked over an element. A click is defined as a mousedown and mouseup over the same screen location. The sequence of these events is:
15:46:58 <ChrisL>         mousedown
15:46:58 <ChrisL>         mouseup
15:46:58 <ChrisL>         click
15:47:00 <ChrisL>        
15:47:09 <ChrisL> If multiple clicks occur at the same screen location, the sequence repeats with the detail attribute incrementing with each repetition. This event is valid for most elements.
15:47:09 <ChrisL>     * Bubbles: Yes
15:47:09 <ChrisL>     * Cancelable: Yes
15:47:09 <ChrisL>     * Context Info: screenX, screenY, clientX, clientY, altKey, ctrlKey, shiftKey, metaKey, button, detail
15:47:45 <ddahl> steven: these examples are monolithic languages, but XForms is directed at multiple languages
15:47:56 <ChrisL> q+
15:48:17 <ddahl> doug: but there would be only one DOMActivate, the one in XForms, because other languages don't use it
15:48:39 <ddahl> chris: does HTML5 refer to DOMActivate or click?
15:49:09 <ddahl> doug: it does refer to "click" not sure about DOMActivate, it's probably not 
15:49:38 <ddahl> chris: in DOM 2 events, DOMActivate has some content that click doesn't
15:50:08 <ddahl> doug: tried to spell out all properties in DOM 3
15:51:07 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/mid/4B888B0A.6080104@w3.org
15:51:18 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org//2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-flow-activation 
15:52:23 <ddahl> ...also talks about "event order", a sequence for when events are fired on activation
15:53:04 <ddahl> ...the context info actually spells out the default values, every property will be listed with its default value
15:53:30 <ddahl> ..."context info" will probably be changed to "default values"
15:55:22 <ChrisL> ack chr
15:55:41 <ddahl> chris: if someone is looking to see if someone is using a pointer, and they might not be able to use "click" to get to pointer-specific stuff, like a screen location
15:56:23 <ddahl> doug: there is nothing here that would tell you that it came from a key event vs. mouse event
15:56:47 <ddahl> ...you could come up with a use case about why someone would want to know how something was activated
15:57:32 <paulc> I have to leave for another meeting.
15:57:39 <ddahl> ...could make it so that the value is null rather than zero
15:57:47 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:58:22 <ddahl> action: doug to raise issue with accessibility of null vs zero
15:58:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Raise issue with accessibility of null vs zero [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-03-19].
15:59:06 <ddahl> if voice activation, you definitely need to know if the activation was by voice or by mouse/keyboard, because voice is less certain
15:59:38 <ddahl> so you might not be as sure with voice that you've gotten exactly what they said
16:00:07 <ddahl> doug: not sure you get that with DOMActivate, either
16:00:07 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org//2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-DOM_INPUT_METHOD_VOICE
16:00:32 <ddahl> ...text input distinguishes between multiple input methods
16:01:04 <ChrisL> "Implementations must dispatch the synthesized click  event as described above even if they do not normally dispatch such an event (e.g. when activation is requested by a voice command, since this specification does not address event types for voice input)."
16:01:34 <ddahl> ...I could see an actual activation by voice -- eg you say "here's my address" and the address field becomes activated
16:02:36 <ChrisL> it would be selected, not activated
16:02:51 <ddahl> ok, I'll think of some more voice use cases
16:03:53 <ddahl> doug: please read the specification and emails for future discussions
16:04:39 <ddahl> ...suggest that concerns be discussed by email
16:08:09 <ChrisL> I really expected that we would have a resolution here
16:08:29 <ddahl> doug: before we schedule another telecon have some email discussion
16:08:59 <ChrisL> adjourned
16:09:24 <Zakim> -Debbie_Dahl
16:10:04 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
16:10:04 <Zakim> -Plh
16:10:23 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:10:24 <Zakim> -Steven
16:10:29 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
16:10:31 <Zakim> -Janina
16:10:34 <Zakim> -Shepazu
16:10:34 <janina> janina has left #hcg
16:10:36 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
16:10:37 <Zakim> Attendees were Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven, ChrisL, paulc, Janina, Shepazu
16:11:16 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
16:11:16 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
16:11:20 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
18:04:51 <plh> plh has left #hcg
18:25:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #hcg
20:22:48 <kaz> kaz has joined #hcg
22:40:01 <ddahl> s/doug: I could see an/debbie: I could see an
22:40:16 <ddahl> rrsagent, make minutes
22:40:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
22:42:04 <ddahl> s/...I could see an actual/debbie: I could see an actual
22:42:19 <ddahl> rrsagent, make minutes
22:42:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
22:49:56 <ddahl> ddahl has left #hcg