IRC log of hcg on 2010-03-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:59:29 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #hcg
- 14:59:29 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-irc
- 14:59:31 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs member
- 14:59:31 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #hcg
- 14:59:33 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
- 14:59:33 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see HTML_CG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
- 14:59:34 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
- 14:59:34 [trackbot]
- Date: 12 March 2010
- 14:59:39 [Zakim]
- HTML_CG()10:00AM has now started
- 14:59:40 [Zakim]
- +Plh
- 14:59:46 [kaz]
- zakim, call kazuyuki-617
- 14:59:46 [Zakim]
- ok, kaz; the call is being made
- 14:59:48 [Zakim]
- +Kazuyuki
- 14:59:48 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #hcg
- 14:59:59 [Zakim]
- +Debbie_Dahl
- 15:00:02 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, here
- 15:00:02 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-irc#T15-00-02
- 15:00:08 [kaz]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:00:08 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl
- 15:00:09 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
- 15:00:22 [Steven]
- Steven has joined #hcg
- 15:00:31 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 15:00:41 [paulc]
- paulc has joined #hcg
- 15:00:56 [Zakim]
- +Doug_Schepers
- 15:01:02 [ChrisL]
- Chair: Chris
- 15:01:35 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 15:01:35 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 15:01:36 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 15:01:38 [ddahl]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:01:38 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven (muted)
- 15:01:40 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see paulc, Steven, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
- 15:01:46 [Zakim]
- +ChrisL
- 15:01:59 [ChrisL]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:01:59 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven, ChrisL
- 15:02:01 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see paulc, Steven, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
- 15:03:05 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 15:03:14 [paulc]
- zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
- 15:03:14 [Zakim]
- +paulc; got it
- 15:04:49 [ddahl]
- scribe: ddahl
- 15:05:11 [ddahl]
- topic: action item
- 15:05:23 [ddahl]
- close action 47
- 15:05:52 [ddahl]
- close action-47
- 15:05:52 [trackbot]
- ACTION-47 Ask richard to send message about referencing BCP47 to chairs@w3.org closed
- 15:05:55 [ChrisL]
- action-32?
- 15:05:55 [trackbot]
- ACTION-32 -- Deborah Dahl to follow up on scxml implementations from KDE -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
- 15:05:55 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/32
- 15:06:09 [ChrisL]
- action-42?
- 15:06:09 [trackbot]
- ACTION-42 -- Chris Lilley to create telcon time WBS survey -- due 2010-01-22 -- OPEN
- 15:06:09 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/42
- 15:06:18 [ddahl]
- debbie: action 32 should be continued
- 15:07:36 [ddahl]
- chris: did check on script for picking times, but seemed complicated
- 15:07:46 [ddahl]
- ...action 42
- 15:09:10 [ChrisL]
- action-44?
- 15:09:10 [trackbot]
- ACTION-44 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to look into funding for browser testing from Web Foundation and NIST -- due 2010-03-31 -- OPEN
- 15:09:10 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/44
- 15:09:23 [ddahl]
- ...changing to summer time in North America next week, so Europe times will be different for the next two weeks, this will affect our next call
- 15:09:40 [ddahl]
- ...action 44, not due yet
- 15:09:52 [ddahl]
- topic: deprecating DOMACtivate event
- 15:10:10 [ChrisL]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hypertext-cg/2010JanMar/0031.html
- 15:10:23 [janina]
- janina has joined #hcg
- 15:10:34 [janina]
- zakim, call janina
- 15:10:34 [Zakim]
- ok, janina; the call is being made
- 15:10:35 [Zakim]
- +Janina
- 15:10:47 [ChrisL]
- hi janina we are about todiscuss deprecating domactivate
- 15:10:58 [ddahl]
- regrets: Robin Berjon
- 15:11:10 [janina]
- zakim, drop janina
- 15:11:10 [Zakim]
- Janina is being disconnected
- 15:11:12 [Zakim]
- -Janina
- 15:11:20 [janina]
- zakim, call janina
- 15:11:20 [Zakim]
- ok, janina; the call is being made
- 15:11:21 [Zakim]
- +Janina
- 15:11:57 [janina]
- zakim, drop janina
- 15:11:57 [Zakim]
- Janina is being disconnected
- 15:11:58 [Zakim]
- -Janina
- 15:12:01 [ddahl]
- chris: seem to have the correct people here
- 15:12:07 [janina]
- zakim, call janina
- 15:12:07 [Zakim]
- ok, janina; the call is being made
- 15:12:09 [Zakim]
- +Janina
- 15:13:12 [Zakim]
- -Janina
- 15:13:13 [janina]
- zakim, drop janina
- 15:13:13 [Zakim]
- sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'
- 15:13:18 [janina]
- zakim, call janina
- 15:13:18 [Zakim]
- ok, janina; the call is being made
- 15:13:20 [Zakim]
- +Janina
- 15:13:24 [ddahl]
- chris: HTML, WAI, XForms, SVG mention it
- 15:13:36 [ddahl]
- debbie: not in VoiceXML or MMI
- 15:14:31 [ddahl]
- chris: may not be directly referenced in WAI specs, but "click" is very mouse-specific
- 15:14:40 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/adaptable/StatesAndProperties-20051106.html
- 15:15:08 [ddahl]
- ..."click" is easier to generate than "activate", so could rely on it
- 15:15:33 [ddahl]
- janina: some take the position that "click" is the generic "activate"
- 15:15:44 [ddahl]
- ...others want the semantic distinction
- 15:16:42 [ddahl]
- chris: if DOMActivate is deprecated, could modify the documentation for "click" to describe its semantics as equivalent to "activate"
- 15:17:54 [ddahl]
- doug: using a keyboard, tab to a link or button, if you hit spacebar or enter, would generate a DOMActivate event but not a "click" event, but now in current browsers you do generate a "click" event
- 15:18:26 [ddahl]
- ...if UA supports both DOMActivate and click, you could distinguish between them
- 15:18:43 [ddahl]
- janina: no one has come up with different behavior for the two cases
- 15:19:42 [ddahl]
- doug: touchscreen and pen interfaces raise issues for possible other kinds of events, so there might be a number of different ways to activate something
- 15:20:23 [ddahl]
- ...WebApps WG will be talking about other kinds of interfaces, but thinks that we'll have to solve the issue of activation in another way
- 15:21:03 [Steven]
- q+
- 15:21:05 [ddahl]
- ...we could resurrect DOMActivate if we need to
- 15:21:33 [ddahl]
- ...even in deprecating it, we're actually defining it better than before
- 15:22:15 [ddahl]
- ..."alternate input device" spec needs to consider these issues
- 15:22:15 [ChrisL]
- ack ste
- 15:22:59 [ddahl]
- steven: the concern is that in 10 years time we will start hearing the opposite
- 15:23:01 [ChrisL]
- q+
- 15:23:39 [ddahl]
- ...it's good that browser vendors have made click interoperable, but what's the problem with keeping DOMActivate around as well
- 15:24:00 [ddahl]
- ...some specs have existing content, why take DOMActivate away?
- 15:24:04 [ChrisL]
- ack chr
- 15:24:34 [ddahl]
- chris: deprecating means that it should be supported but new content shouldn't use it
- 15:25:11 [ddahl]
- ...now click is widely implemented, activate is sporadically implemented
- 15:26:06 [ddahl]
- ... most content seems to be looking for a click event
- 15:26:28 [ddahl]
- ...not really deprecating, but changing focus and best practices
- 15:26:38 [ddahl]
- doug: deprecation is a warning to authors
- 15:27:11 [paulc]
- q+
- 15:27:12 [ddahl]
- ...that a feature will be removed in the next version
- 15:27:22 [ddahl]
- ...doesn't tell implementations what to do
- 15:27:31 [paulc]
- deprecation usually means the feature MIGHT be removed in the future
- 15:27:56 [paulc]
- in my experience the actualy removal decision is usually left to a later decision
- 15:28:09 [paulc]
- s/actualy/actual/
- 15:29:05 [ddahl]
- (discussion about whether XForms defines or references DOMActivate)
- 15:30:23 [ddahl]
- doug: DOMActivate is a general event across languages
- 15:31:19 [ddahl]
- ...we should adapt to where implementations are at a certain time
- 15:32:05 [ddahl]
- ...DOMActivate is harming accesibility because we're telling authors to do something that doesn't work, authors who use DOMActivate are making their content less accessible
- 15:32:19 [ChrisL]
- q?
- 15:32:29 [ChrisL]
- ack paul
- 15:32:48 [Zakim]
- -Doug_Schepers
- 15:33:15 [ddahl]
- paul: why does "deprecate" mean "will be removed" not "might be removed" in next version?
- 15:33:32 [Zakim]
- +Shepazu
- 15:33:53 [ddahl]
- ... is a warning about a possible future action, not a certain one
- 15:33:56 [ChrisL]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 15:34:09 [Zakim]
- ChrisL, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (11%)
- 15:34:31 [ddahl]
- ...the decision is left to the future version
- 15:34:54 [paulc]
- ack paulc
- 15:34:54 [ddahl]
- doug: I agree with deprecate meaning "might be removed"
- 15:35:45 [ddahl]
- ...this decision was made in consultation with accessibility
- 15:36:10 [ddahl]
- janina: in general approves, but not all key people were in on discussion
- 15:36:26 [ddahl]
- ...in accessibility we're interested in the functionality, not so much what it's called
- 15:36:54 [ddahl]
- chris: it could be clarified that name is historical and clarify what the exact semantics is
- 15:36:59 [ddahl]
- janina: that would help
- 15:37:15 [ddahl]
- doug: I think I covered those concerns in the documentation
- 15:37:34 [ddahl]
- chris: if people are hung up on the name that can be explained
- 15:37:40 [ddahl]
- ...in documentation
- 15:38:10 [ddahl]
- janina: WAI-PF took an action to offer an opinion but need more discussion
- 15:38:51 [ddahl]
- action: janina to schedule a WAI-PF call on deprecating DOMActivate and report back to HCG
- 15:38:51 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-50 - Schedule a WAI-PF call on deprecating DOMActivate and report back to HCG [on Janina Sajka - due 2010-03-19].
- 15:39:55 [ddahl]
- doug: trying to clarify difference between DOMActivate and activation behavior.
- 15:40:14 [ddahl]
- ...activation behavior is made even more explicit in DOM3 events, one
- 15:40:32 [ddahl]
- ...is to throw a click event
- 15:41:11 [ddahl]
- doug: we aren't removing DOMActivate from DOM 2 events or even DOM 3 events
- 15:41:47 [ddahl]
- ...did not remove it, but just deprecated
- 15:42:07 [Steven]
- q+
- 15:42:18 [ddahl]
- ...if XForms needs DOMActivate, you could keep referring to DOM 2 or define it yourself
- 15:42:21 [ChrisL]
- ack ste
- 15:42:46 [ddahl]
- steven: then it becomes a different event with the same name
- 15:43:35 [ddahl]
- doug: DOMActivate is different XForms is different from HTML because it's not bound to a UI in XForms
- 15:44:56 [ddahl]
- doug: DOMActivate wasn't specified well in DOM 2, properties not defined
- 15:44:59 [ddahl]
- ...well
- 15:45:27 [ddahl]
- steven: we list the ones we're expecting but don't define them
- 15:45:41 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-eventgroupings
- 15:45:54 [ChrisL]
- DOMActivate
- 15:45:54 [ChrisL]
- The activate event occurs when an element is activated, for instance, thru a mouse click or a keypress. A numerical argument is provided to give an indication of the type of activation that occurs: 1 for a simple activation (e.g. a simple click or Enter), 2 for hyperactivation (for instance a double click or Shift Enter).
- 15:45:54 [ChrisL]
- * Bubbles: Yes
- 15:45:54 [ChrisL]
- * Cancelable: Yes
- 15:45:55 [ChrisL]
- * Context Info: detail (the numerical value)
- 15:46:13 [ddahl]
- ...we want the same event, we don't want different languages to have the event "DOMActivate" with different meanings
- 15:46:58 [ChrisL]
- click
- 15:46:58 [ChrisL]
- The click event occurs when the pointing device button is clicked over an element. A click is defined as a mousedown and mouseup over the same screen location. The sequence of these events is:
- 15:46:58 [ChrisL]
- mousedown
- 15:46:58 [ChrisL]
- mouseup
- 15:46:58 [ChrisL]
- click
- 15:47:00 [ChrisL]
-
- 15:47:09 [ChrisL]
- If multiple clicks occur at the same screen location, the sequence repeats with the detail attribute incrementing with each repetition. This event is valid for most elements.
- 15:47:09 [ChrisL]
- * Bubbles: Yes
- 15:47:09 [ChrisL]
- * Cancelable: Yes
- 15:47:09 [ChrisL]
- * Context Info: screenX, screenY, clientX, clientY, altKey, ctrlKey, shiftKey, metaKey, button, detail
- 15:47:45 [ddahl]
- steven: these examples are monolithic languages, but XForms is directed at multiple languages
- 15:47:56 [ChrisL]
- q+
- 15:48:17 [ddahl]
- doug: but there would be only one DOMActivate, the one in XForms, because other languages don't use it
- 15:48:39 [ddahl]
- chris: does HTML5 refer to DOMActivate or click?
- 15:49:09 [ddahl]
- doug: it does refer to "click" not sure about DOMActivate, it's probably not
- 15:49:38 [ddahl]
- chris: in DOM 2 events, DOMActivate has some content that click doesn't
- 15:50:08 [ddahl]
- doug: tried to spell out all properties in DOM 3
- 15:51:07 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/mid/4B888B0A.6080104@w3.org
- 15:51:18 [shepazu]
- http://dev.w3.org//2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-flow-activation
- 15:52:23 [ddahl]
- ...also talks about "event order", a sequence for when events are fired on activation
- 15:53:04 [ddahl]
- ...the context info actually spells out the default values, every property will be listed with its default value
- 15:53:30 [ddahl]
- ..."context info" will probably be changed to "default values"
- 15:55:22 [ChrisL]
- ack chr
- 15:55:41 [ddahl]
- chris: if someone is looking to see if someone is using a pointer, and they might not be able to use "click" to get to pointer-specific stuff, like a screen location
- 15:56:23 [ddahl]
- doug: there is nothing here that would tell you that it came from a key event vs. mouse event
- 15:56:47 [ddahl]
- ...you could come up with a use case about why someone would want to know how something was activated
- 15:57:32 [paulc]
- I have to leave for another meeting.
- 15:57:39 [ddahl]
- ...could make it so that the value is null rather than zero
- 15:57:47 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 15:58:22 [ddahl]
- action: doug to raise issue with accessibility of null vs zero
- 15:58:22 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-51 - Raise issue with accessibility of null vs zero [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-03-19].
- 15:59:06 [ddahl]
- if voice activation, you definitely need to know if the activation was by voice or by mouse/keyboard, because voice is less certain
- 15:59:38 [ddahl]
- so you might not be as sure with voice that you've gotten exactly what they said
- 16:00:07 [ddahl]
- doug: not sure you get that with DOMActivate, either
- 16:00:07 [shepazu]
- http://dev.w3.org//2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-DOM_INPUT_METHOD_VOICE
- 16:00:32 [ddahl]
- ...text input distinguishes between multiple input methods
- 16:01:04 [ChrisL]
- "Implementations must dispatch the synthesized click event as described above even if they do not normally dispatch such an event (e.g. when activation is requested by a voice command, since this specification does not address event types for voice input)."
- 16:01:34 [ddahl]
- ...I could see an actual activation by voice -- eg you say "here's my address" and the address field becomes activated
- 16:02:36 [ChrisL]
- it would be selected, not activated
- 16:02:51 [ddahl]
- ok, I'll think of some more voice use cases
- 16:03:53 [ddahl]
- doug: please read the specification and emails for future discussions
- 16:04:39 [ddahl]
- ...suggest that concerns be discussed by email
- 16:08:09 [ChrisL]
- I really expected that we would have a resolution here
- 16:08:29 [ddahl]
- doug: before we schedule another telecon have some email discussion
- 16:08:59 [ChrisL]
- adjourned
- 16:09:24 [Zakim]
- -Debbie_Dahl
- 16:10:04 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:10:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
- 16:10:04 [Zakim]
- -Plh
- 16:10:23 [Zakim]
- -ChrisL
- 16:10:24 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 16:10:29 [Zakim]
- -Kazuyuki
- 16:10:31 [Zakim]
- -Janina
- 16:10:34 [Zakim]
- -Shepazu
- 16:10:34 [janina]
- janina has left #hcg
- 16:10:36 [Zakim]
- HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
- 16:10:37 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven, ChrisL, paulc, Janina, Shepazu
- 16:11:16 [ChrisL]
- zakim, list attendees
- 16:11:16 [Zakim]
- sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
- 16:11:20 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:11:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
- 18:04:51 [plh]
- plh has left #hcg
- 18:25:11 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #hcg
- 20:22:48 [kaz]
- kaz has joined #hcg
- 22:40:01 [ddahl]
- s/doug: I could see an/debbie: I could see an
- 22:40:16 [ddahl]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 22:40:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
- 22:42:04 [ddahl]
- s/...I could see an actual/debbie: I could see an actual
- 22:42:19 [ddahl]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 22:42:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
- 22:49:56 [ddahl]
- ddahl has left #hcg