IRC log of hcg on 2010-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #hcg
14:59:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-irc
14:59:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
14:59:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #hcg
14:59:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
14:59:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_CG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
14:59:34 [trackbot]
Date: 12 March 2010
14:59:39 [Zakim]
HTML_CG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:40 [Zakim]
+Plh
14:59:46 [kaz]
zakim, call kazuyuki-617
14:59:46 [Zakim]
ok, kaz; the call is being made
14:59:48 [Zakim]
+Kazuyuki
14:59:48 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #hcg
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+Debbie_Dahl
15:00:02 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
15:00:02 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-irc#T15-00-02
15:00:08 [kaz]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl
15:00:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
15:00:22 [Steven]
Steven has joined #hcg
15:00:31 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:41 [paulc]
paulc has joined #hcg
15:00:56 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
15:01:02 [ChrisL]
Chair: Chris
15:01:35 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:35 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:01:36 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:01:38 [ddahl]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven (muted)
15:01:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see paulc, Steven, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
15:01:46 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
15:01:59 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven, ChrisL
15:02:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see paulc, Steven, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, plh, ddahl, kaz, shepazu, trackbot
15:03:05 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:03:14 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:03:14 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:04:49 [ddahl]
scribe: ddahl
15:05:11 [ddahl]
topic: action item
15:05:23 [ddahl]
close action 47
15:05:52 [ddahl]
close action-47
15:05:52 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 Ask richard to send message about referencing BCP47 to chairs@w3.org closed
15:05:55 [ChrisL]
action-32?
15:05:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-32 -- Deborah Dahl to follow up on scxml implementations from KDE -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
15:05:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/32
15:06:09 [ChrisL]
action-42?
15:06:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-42 -- Chris Lilley to create telcon time WBS survey -- due 2010-01-22 -- OPEN
15:06:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/42
15:06:18 [ddahl]
debbie: action 32 should be continued
15:07:36 [ddahl]
chris: did check on script for picking times, but seemed complicated
15:07:46 [ddahl]
...action 42
15:09:10 [ChrisL]
action-44?
15:09:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-44 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to look into funding for browser testing from Web Foundation and NIST -- due 2010-03-31 -- OPEN
15:09:10 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/44
15:09:23 [ddahl]
...changing to summer time in North America next week, so Europe times will be different for the next two weeks, this will affect our next call
15:09:40 [ddahl]
...action 44, not due yet
15:09:52 [ddahl]
topic: deprecating DOMACtivate event
15:10:10 [ChrisL]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hypertext-cg/2010JanMar/0031.html
15:10:23 [janina]
janina has joined #hcg
15:10:34 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:10:34 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:10:35 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:10:47 [ChrisL]
hi janina we are about todiscuss deprecating domactivate
15:10:58 [ddahl]
regrets: Robin Berjon
15:11:10 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
15:11:10 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
15:11:12 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:11:20 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:11:20 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:11:21 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:11:57 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
15:11:57 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
15:11:58 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:12:01 [ddahl]
chris: seem to have the correct people here
15:12:07 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:12:07 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:12:09 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:13:12 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:13:13 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
15:13:13 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'
15:13:18 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:13:18 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:13:20 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:13:24 [ddahl]
chris: HTML, WAI, XForms, SVG mention it
15:13:36 [ddahl]
debbie: not in VoiceXML or MMI
15:14:31 [ddahl]
chris: may not be directly referenced in WAI specs, but "click" is very mouse-specific
15:14:40 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/adaptable/StatesAndProperties-20051106.html
15:15:08 [ddahl]
..."click" is easier to generate than "activate", so could rely on it
15:15:33 [ddahl]
janina: some take the position that "click" is the generic "activate"
15:15:44 [ddahl]
...others want the semantic distinction
15:16:42 [ddahl]
chris: if DOMActivate is deprecated, could modify the documentation for "click" to describe its semantics as equivalent to "activate"
15:17:54 [ddahl]
doug: using a keyboard, tab to a link or button, if you hit spacebar or enter, would generate a DOMActivate event but not a "click" event, but now in current browsers you do generate a "click" event
15:18:26 [ddahl]
...if UA supports both DOMActivate and click, you could distinguish between them
15:18:43 [ddahl]
janina: no one has come up with different behavior for the two cases
15:19:42 [ddahl]
doug: touchscreen and pen interfaces raise issues for possible other kinds of events, so there might be a number of different ways to activate something
15:20:23 [ddahl]
...WebApps WG will be talking about other kinds of interfaces, but thinks that we'll have to solve the issue of activation in another way
15:21:03 [Steven]
q+
15:21:05 [ddahl]
...we could resurrect DOMActivate if we need to
15:21:33 [ddahl]
...even in deprecating it, we're actually defining it better than before
15:22:15 [ddahl]
..."alternate input device" spec needs to consider these issues
15:22:15 [ChrisL]
ack ste
15:22:59 [ddahl]
steven: the concern is that in 10 years time we will start hearing the opposite
15:23:01 [ChrisL]
q+
15:23:39 [ddahl]
...it's good that browser vendors have made click interoperable, but what's the problem with keeping DOMActivate around as well
15:24:00 [ddahl]
...some specs have existing content, why take DOMActivate away?
15:24:04 [ChrisL]
ack chr
15:24:34 [ddahl]
chris: deprecating means that it should be supported but new content shouldn't use it
15:25:11 [ddahl]
...now click is widely implemented, activate is sporadically implemented
15:26:06 [ddahl]
... most content seems to be looking for a click event
15:26:28 [ddahl]
...not really deprecating, but changing focus and best practices
15:26:38 [ddahl]
doug: deprecation is a warning to authors
15:27:11 [paulc]
q+
15:27:12 [ddahl]
...that a feature will be removed in the next version
15:27:22 [ddahl]
...doesn't tell implementations what to do
15:27:31 [paulc]
deprecation usually means the feature MIGHT be removed in the future
15:27:56 [paulc]
in my experience the actualy removal decision is usually left to a later decision
15:28:09 [paulc]
s/actualy/actual/
15:29:05 [ddahl]
(discussion about whether XForms defines or references DOMActivate)
15:30:23 [ddahl]
doug: DOMActivate is a general event across languages
15:31:19 [ddahl]
...we should adapt to where implementations are at a certain time
15:32:05 [ddahl]
...DOMActivate is harming accesibility because we're telling authors to do something that doesn't work, authors who use DOMActivate are making their content less accessible
15:32:19 [ChrisL]
q?
15:32:29 [ChrisL]
ack paul
15:32:48 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
15:33:15 [ddahl]
paul: why does "deprecate" mean "will be removed" not "might be removed" in next version?
15:33:32 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
15:33:53 [ddahl]
... is a warning about a possible future action, not a certain one
15:33:56 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is talking?
15:34:09 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (11%)
15:34:31 [ddahl]
...the decision is left to the future version
15:34:54 [paulc]
ack paulc
15:34:54 [ddahl]
doug: I agree with deprecate meaning "might be removed"
15:35:45 [ddahl]
...this decision was made in consultation with accessibility
15:36:10 [ddahl]
janina: in general approves, but not all key people were in on discussion
15:36:26 [ddahl]
...in accessibility we're interested in the functionality, not so much what it's called
15:36:54 [ddahl]
chris: it could be clarified that name is historical and clarify what the exact semantics is
15:36:59 [ddahl]
janina: that would help
15:37:15 [ddahl]
doug: I think I covered those concerns in the documentation
15:37:34 [ddahl]
chris: if people are hung up on the name that can be explained
15:37:40 [ddahl]
...in documentation
15:38:10 [ddahl]
janina: WAI-PF took an action to offer an opinion but need more discussion
15:38:51 [ddahl]
action: janina to schedule a WAI-PF call on deprecating DOMActivate and report back to HCG
15:38:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-50 - Schedule a WAI-PF call on deprecating DOMActivate and report back to HCG [on Janina Sajka - due 2010-03-19].
15:39:55 [ddahl]
doug: trying to clarify difference between DOMActivate and activation behavior.
15:40:14 [ddahl]
...activation behavior is made even more explicit in DOM3 events, one
15:40:32 [ddahl]
...is to throw a click event
15:41:11 [ddahl]
doug: we aren't removing DOMActivate from DOM 2 events or even DOM 3 events
15:41:47 [ddahl]
...did not remove it, but just deprecated
15:42:07 [Steven]
q+
15:42:18 [ddahl]
...if XForms needs DOMActivate, you could keep referring to DOM 2 or define it yourself
15:42:21 [ChrisL]
ack ste
15:42:46 [ddahl]
steven: then it becomes a different event with the same name
15:43:35 [ddahl]
doug: DOMActivate is different XForms is different from HTML because it's not bound to a UI in XForms
15:44:56 [ddahl]
doug: DOMActivate wasn't specified well in DOM 2, properties not defined
15:44:59 [ddahl]
...well
15:45:27 [ddahl]
steven: we list the ones we're expecting but don't define them
15:45:41 [ChrisL]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-eventgroupings
15:45:54 [ChrisL]
DOMActivate
15:45:54 [ChrisL]
The activate event occurs when an element is activated, for instance, thru a mouse click or a keypress. A numerical argument is provided to give an indication of the type of activation that occurs: 1 for a simple activation (e.g. a simple click or Enter), 2 for hyperactivation (for instance a double click or Shift Enter).
15:45:54 [ChrisL]
* Bubbles: Yes
15:45:54 [ChrisL]
* Cancelable: Yes
15:45:55 [ChrisL]
* Context Info: detail (the numerical value)
15:46:13 [ddahl]
...we want the same event, we don't want different languages to have the event "DOMActivate" with different meanings
15:46:58 [ChrisL]
click
15:46:58 [ChrisL]
The click event occurs when the pointing device button is clicked over an element. A click is defined as a mousedown and mouseup over the same screen location. The sequence of these events is:
15:46:58 [ChrisL]
mousedown
15:46:58 [ChrisL]
mouseup
15:46:58 [ChrisL]
click
15:47:00 [ChrisL]
15:47:09 [ChrisL]
If multiple clicks occur at the same screen location, the sequence repeats with the detail attribute incrementing with each repetition. This event is valid for most elements.
15:47:09 [ChrisL]
* Bubbles: Yes
15:47:09 [ChrisL]
* Cancelable: Yes
15:47:09 [ChrisL]
* Context Info: screenX, screenY, clientX, clientY, altKey, ctrlKey, shiftKey, metaKey, button, detail
15:47:45 [ddahl]
steven: these examples are monolithic languages, but XForms is directed at multiple languages
15:47:56 [ChrisL]
q+
15:48:17 [ddahl]
doug: but there would be only one DOMActivate, the one in XForms, because other languages don't use it
15:48:39 [ddahl]
chris: does HTML5 refer to DOMActivate or click?
15:49:09 [ddahl]
doug: it does refer to "click" not sure about DOMActivate, it's probably not
15:49:38 [ddahl]
chris: in DOM 2 events, DOMActivate has some content that click doesn't
15:50:08 [ddahl]
doug: tried to spell out all properties in DOM 3
15:51:07 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/mid/4B888B0A.6080104@w3.org
15:51:18 [shepazu]
http://dev.w3.org//2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-flow-activation
15:52:23 [ddahl]
...also talks about "event order", a sequence for when events are fired on activation
15:53:04 [ddahl]
...the context info actually spells out the default values, every property will be listed with its default value
15:53:30 [ddahl]
..."context info" will probably be changed to "default values"
15:55:22 [ChrisL]
ack chr
15:55:41 [ddahl]
chris: if someone is looking to see if someone is using a pointer, and they might not be able to use "click" to get to pointer-specific stuff, like a screen location
15:56:23 [ddahl]
doug: there is nothing here that would tell you that it came from a key event vs. mouse event
15:56:47 [ddahl]
...you could come up with a use case about why someone would want to know how something was activated
15:57:32 [paulc]
I have to leave for another meeting.
15:57:39 [ddahl]
...could make it so that the value is null rather than zero
15:57:47 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
15:58:22 [ddahl]
action: doug to raise issue with accessibility of null vs zero
15:58:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-51 - Raise issue with accessibility of null vs zero [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-03-19].
15:59:06 [ddahl]
if voice activation, you definitely need to know if the activation was by voice or by mouse/keyboard, because voice is less certain
15:59:38 [ddahl]
so you might not be as sure with voice that you've gotten exactly what they said
16:00:07 [ddahl]
doug: not sure you get that with DOMActivate, either
16:00:07 [shepazu]
http://dev.w3.org//2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-DOM_INPUT_METHOD_VOICE
16:00:32 [ddahl]
...text input distinguishes between multiple input methods
16:01:04 [ChrisL]
"Implementations must dispatch the synthesized click event as described above even if they do not normally dispatch such an event (e.g. when activation is requested by a voice command, since this specification does not address event types for voice input)."
16:01:34 [ddahl]
...I could see an actual activation by voice -- eg you say "here's my address" and the address field becomes activated
16:02:36 [ChrisL]
it would be selected, not activated
16:02:51 [ddahl]
ok, I'll think of some more voice use cases
16:03:53 [ddahl]
doug: please read the specification and emails for future discussions
16:04:39 [ddahl]
...suggest that concerns be discussed by email
16:08:09 [ChrisL]
I really expected that we would have a resolution here
16:08:29 [ddahl]
doug: before we schedule another telecon have some email discussion
16:08:59 [ChrisL]
adjourned
16:09:24 [Zakim]
-Debbie_Dahl
16:10:04 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
16:10:04 [Zakim]
-Plh
16:10:23 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:10:24 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:10:29 [Zakim]
-Kazuyuki
16:10:31 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:10:34 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
16:10:34 [janina]
janina has left #hcg
16:10:36 [Zakim]
HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
16:10:37 [Zakim]
Attendees were Plh, Kazuyuki, Debbie_Dahl, Doug_Schepers, Steven, ChrisL, paulc, Janina, Shepazu
16:11:16 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
16:11:16 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
16:11:20 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
18:04:51 [plh]
plh has left #hcg
18:25:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #hcg
20:22:48 [kaz]
kaz has joined #hcg
22:40:01 [ddahl]
s/doug: I could see an/debbie: I could see an
22:40:16 [ddahl]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:40:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
22:42:04 [ddahl]
s/...I could see an actual/debbie: I could see an actual
22:42:19 [ddahl]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:42:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/12-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
22:49:56 [ddahl]
ddahl has left #hcg